 surviveing Kaers, are there any? |
 Apr 12 2007, 12:10 AM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 332 Joined: 19-September 05 From: Nashville, Tn Member No.: 7,761  |
i was just wondering if there were any 4th world Kaers surviving into the 6th age.
if there is not, how do you think this would effect the 6th world, and what kind of runs do you think you get out of it. |
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Apr 12 2007, 12:27 AM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
There is suspicion that the tunnels under LA that are described in the Alchera section of Street Magic may be a Kaer.
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Apr 12 2007, 01:52 AM
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#3
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
I just looked that section over--it sure sounds like one, especially given the bit about the "hiding from the wrath of gods that scoured the Earth in ancient times," i.e. the Horrors.
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Apr 12 2007, 02:13 AM
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#4
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Yup, that's the part that made me think so...
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Apr 12 2007, 02:39 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 27-May 03 From: Detroit Member No.: 4,642 |
I believe the Alantean Foundation found one in eastern Europe. It may have just been remnents of Bairsaive. I can't remember what book I read that led me to think this, so I might not know what the heck I'm talking about.
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Apr 12 2007, 02:58 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 355 Joined: 24-August 02 From: Magna, Ute Nation Member No.: 3,166 |
In ED there's a spell called city in a bottle. Basically it transfers a city into an unbreakable bottle for a specific amount of time decided by the caster when the spell is cast. Lofwyr could have one on his bookshelf.
I ran my players through a "complex tunnel system" in Ukraine. They were fasinated with all the strange writings and chambers. Too bad they got into a wicked firefight and started throwing grenades. That's the closest thing I've ever done. Are you asking if there's a sealed kear that people have been living underground for 5200 years? That sounds interesting. |
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Apr 12 2007, 08:40 AM
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#7
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
The kaers relied on magic for everything - growing fooding, getting light, recycle their waste. When the mana level drops to 0, it would be hard to continue this...
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Apr 12 2007, 08:46 AM
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#8
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Yeah, but didn't some of the kaers actually physically shift themselves to the Metaplanes? And if so did they all automatically pop back into place as the Mana Level dropped back down?
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Apr 12 2007, 10:22 AM
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#9
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 141 Joined: 12-August 05 From: Helsinki Member No.: 7,552 |
Yes, the population would drop dramatically, but maybe some would find new ways to survive. And, if the kaers were magically sealed, as I think they were, maybe they wouldn't have been able to get out after the mana level dropped. These kaers would be forgotten over time, buried deep in the ground, with only a handful of people surviving. Of course, they'd probably look like the banjo-playing boy from Deliverance. |
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Apr 12 2007, 10:30 AM
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#10
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
Parlainth is the prime example for the cities who tried to survive this way. ;) |
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Apr 12 2007, 10:30 AM
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#11
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Great, I'm a Dragon... Group: Retired Admins Posts: 6,699 Joined: 8-October 03 From: North Germany Member No.: 5,698 |
It's possible, indeed. |
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Apr 12 2007, 06:28 PM
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#12
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
As some who isn't really very familair with Earthdawn, what happened to Parlainth? I seem to remember hearing that name before and given your response I take it's fate wasn't pleasent...
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Apr 12 2007, 06:37 PM
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#13
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Parlainth was breached by the Horrors. They were trapped there for over 500 years, until Parlainth was returned.
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Apr 12 2007, 06:38 PM
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#14
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,174 Joined: 13-May 04 From: UCAS Member No.: 6,327 |
Ayup... Well, the city made it back... more or less... Oh, the inhabitants? Ahehe... Well, needless to say there's a lot more elbow room, you can get some prime real estate locations via squatter's rights. ;) |
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Apr 12 2007, 06:46 PM
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#15
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, how big was the population of a kaer? i mean, after thousands of years, you'd think inbreeding would have made them too genetically fuxx0red to survive. or, y'know, turned them into monsters, depending on how Hollywood you want to go. i mean, kaers were only meant to last for the few hundred years that the mana cycle was high enough to support a big Horror population, right? not for the 5,000 or so years since the 4th world.
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Apr 12 2007, 06:53 PM
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#16
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Depends. Parlainth, for example, would more properly be termed a citadel and probably had a standing population in the tens of thousands (counting slaves).
Kaers - with the exception of the underground Throalic cities - generally had a smaller population, but there was a minimum size you needed to properly construct a kaer. Not that inbreeding might not become an issue. |
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Apr 12 2007, 07:27 PM
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#17
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Inbreeding, in and of itself, doesn't actually do any genetic harm. What is does is increase the probability of the next generation expressing recessive traits. These traits may be positive, such as increased intelligence; benign, such as red hair; or harmful, such a hemophilia. The actual results depend on the traits that are in the original gene pool. If the people who start inbreeding have harmful traits then the chances of their descends expressing those traits are good. If they lack harmful traits but have many beneficial ones, then inbreeding is a fast way to create a race of superhumans.
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Apr 12 2007, 07:58 PM
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#18
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Ok, from my understanding of Earthdawn they basically saw everything as patterns of magical energy, so I supose my question would be in theory would one's True Pattern spell out genetic traits and did the Fourth World have a deep enough understanding to basically perform a 'DNA' Test for an eugenitics experiment? :cyber:
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Apr 12 2007, 08:00 PM
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#19
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 914 Joined: 26-August 05 From: Louisville, KY (Well, Memphis, IN technically but you won't know where that is.) Member No.: 7,626 |
There is a minimum population that will generally prove sufficient for genetic diversity. I seem to recall it is around 200 people but it can go lower depending on the male/female ratio. A hand-picked populace could go lower, I suppose, if you could ensure a lack of dormant defects.
Ironically, genetic "defects" may in fact be a defense mechanism. There's a book I've been meaning to track down that shows certain defects that cause death around age 45 due to excessive iron build up provide protection from diseases like the black plague, which kill in part due to causing iron deficiency. Other genetic diseases and/or allergies cause people to avoid regional poisons or survive certain kinds of crop blights that were fairly regular. A kaer of "defect free" individuals could be wiped out by the plague 10 years into their isolation. Short form, diversity is good. |
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Apr 12 2007, 08:06 PM
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#20
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 993 Joined: 5-December 05 From: Crying in the wilderness Member No.: 8,047 |
They had magical measuring devices in the kaers so they would know when it was safe to leave. It is unlikely they would still be in a kaer 5000 years later. The Kaer might still exist but he population would of moved on.
I ran in a published adventure with a egyptian kaer in? Any takers on what it was from? |
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Apr 12 2007, 09:03 PM
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#21
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 332 Joined: 19-September 05 From: Nashville, Tn Member No.: 7,761 |
not all the kaers had the earth and watter time clock.
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Apr 12 2007, 09:12 PM
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#22
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
yeah, all it takes is one unfixable screw-up, and the kaer is stuck forever after with half-remembered myths and wrong ideas. such a kaer might never open.
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Apr 12 2007, 09:17 PM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,180 Joined: 22-January 07 From: Rochester, NY Member No.: 10,737 |
Actually, what you are referring to are two separate issues, one is the CCR5 mutation and the other is sickle cell anemia. While your summation is somewhat inaccurate (the Black Death did not kill from iron deficiency, it killed from overwhelming the body's defenses and essentially eating it from the inside out) your point on genetic defects is accurate. The CCR5 mutation is a mutation of the CCR5 receptor on the exterior of white blood cells. As for why it is important, CCR5 is the receptor that the HIV particle needs to open to enter the white blood cell; the mutation results in a malformed CCR5 receptor and the virus literally cannot enter the cell, saving it from infection from HIV. The mutated gene can be received from both parents, and having two copies is better than having just one--having just one means that while blood cells still have CCR5 receptors, but fewer of them than normal, while having 2 copies essentially means no receptors whatsoever; the man who did the research, Stephen O'Brien, a virologist at the National Cancer Institute, found that people who had two copies of the mutation, even if they engaged in behaviors that have high risk for HIV infection, like needle sharing and certain sexual practices, were essentially immune to the virus. And even though those who have only one copy of the mutation can still be infected, the virus is slowed down enough that the onset of full-blown AIDS will be delayed by two or three years. However, it is the extent of the mutation that is interesting: it is relatively common in Europe, where 20% or more of the continent's total population having one or more copies. It is most common in Sweden, and tapers off as one heads south and east; it is relatively common in the British Isles, with over a tenth of the population carrying it, but only 6.3 percent of Turkey carries the mutated gene, and in the rest of the world, the mutation is unknown. The only way that the mutation, which impairs the functioning of the T cells slightly, could reach such levels would be if the mutation had been favored by natural selection at one point, and a powerful selection at that. O'Brien and his team looked at the mutation's age by studying the variability on that portion of the DNA strand, and came up with an age of 700 years--which would put the origin of the CCR5 mutation at the time of the Black Death, which killed one out of four Europeans between 1347 and 1350, and even more in other waves of epidemics of bubonic plague over the centuries. The other item is sickle cell anemia. An individual with two copies of the mutation has deformed red blood cells, which can get tangled in the blood vessels, leading to blockage, with all the fun that results, like strokes, heart attacks and other things of that ilk, in addition to the fact that the deformed red blood cell cannot carry oxygen, resulting in anemia. However, the mutation is relatively common in sub-Saharan Africa. As for why, it is quite simple: having one copy of the mutation makes the carrier resistant to malaria, which kills between one to three million people annually. So while having two copies is effectively a death sentence, having one copy will help save a person from dying, because the red blood cells, which parasite breeds in, will have the sickle cell trait express, making the cell deformed, which means that the body's spleen will destroy it before the parasites finish growing. In terms of Shadowrun, it makes me wonder if there is now a resistance to VITAS in the population due to the massive selection pressure that the virus caused. |
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Apr 12 2007, 10:30 PM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 332 Joined: 19-September 05 From: Nashville, Tn Member No.: 7,761 |
i think the rocky mountains would make a great place to place a Kaers of one nature or the other.
I think you could make a run based on the DOD complex in the rockeys to have accidently breached into a kears during recent renovation and expancion. |
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Apr 12 2007, 10:49 PM
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#25
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Shadow Cartographer Group: Members Posts: 3,737 Joined: 2-June 06 From: Secret Tunnels under the UK (South West) Member No.: 8,636 |
Thanks for posting all that. Always love learning new stuff and that was really interesting. |
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