Technomancers and Initiative Passes

Technomancers and Initiative Passes, Totally shafted? Hmm, yep.

Gelare View Member Profile	Aug 5 2007, 08:31 PM Post #1
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 13-July 07 Member No.: 12,235	So, I want to make a Technomancer for this game I'm playing in. Our team is only two people big, so we each get 450 BP to work with, which is just fine, as technomancers are painfully starved for build points and Karma. But anyway, I want him to be able to hack well without slumping down on the floor all the time. Now, since while working with AR you move at meat speeds, that means he needs better reflexes. But here's the thing: technomancers have no way to get better reflexes. Mages can cast Increase Reflexes. Adepts can buy Increase Reflexes. Anyone else can undergo everyone's favorite extremely, painfully invasive cybernetic procedure. And technomancers can...sit on their butt. So can anyone tell me how to get more meat initiative passes as a technomancer, or barring that, how to hack systems without going into VR all the time?

Replies (1 - 24)

Kyoto Kid View Member Profile	Aug 5 2007, 08:48 PM Post #2
Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490	...this has been my argument against Technomancers all along. The only way is to use Edge (which is limited to how much edge you have & when the GM lets it refresh), or look into combat drugs (which have undesirable side effects though) .

Tarantula View Member Profile	Aug 5 2007, 08:51 PM Post #3
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	Yeah, Hack them in AR. Whats so hard about that? You don't get your +2 for full VR. and you're at a base 1ap per ip instead of 3. Just pump your stealth as high as you can. The less detected you are, the less you need those extra APs. The only problem is you won't be able to hack in, browse what you need, and command it to open (for example to open a door in front of you) as fast as if you went VR/had more meat IP. (Taking 9 seconds instead of 3 in that example).

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Aug 5 2007, 09:11 PM Post #4
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	Err, what exactly stops you from getting something like Synaptic Booster 1 or 2? Yes, your Resonance takes a hit just like a magician Magic does, but that's the price you pay if you want to be good inside the Matrix as well as out...

Tarantula View Member Profile	Aug 5 2007, 09:25 PM Post #5
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	Nothing does funk. As he said, mages can use increased reflexes to get those extra IPs without losing magic. Technos have the options of drugs, edge, a friendly mage, or essence/resonance cost.

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Aug 5 2007, 09:26 PM Post #6
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	Mages deal with the real world. Technomancers deal with the matrix. They get their "increased reflexes" in the world they specialize in. Why should they have a speed boost outside the matrix where they're nothing but weak little computer nerds? Or are you advocating that magicians should be able to ahve all of a techmancer's speed inside the matrix via magic, too?

Tarantula View Member Profile	Aug 5 2007, 09:28 PM Post #7
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	Mages deal with the astral. They get their extra IPs while projecting. But they can also get them via a spell in the physical. Techno's deal with the matrix. They get their extra IPs while in VR. But they can't also get them in the physical without sacrificing their specialty.

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Aug 5 2007, 09:40 PM Post #8
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	<just rolls his eyes>

Kyoto Kid

Aug 5 2007, 09:45 PM

Post #9

Bushido Cowgirl

Group: Members
Posts: 5,782
Joined: 8-July 05
From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats
Member No.: 7,490

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Err, what exactly stops you from getting something like Synaptic Booster 1 or 2? Yes, your Resonance takes a hit just like a magician Magic does, but that's the price you pay if you want to be good inside the Matrix as well as out...

...letsee:

...-1 to resonance (particularly bad if you have it at only 5 so that you BP's left over for Attributes that your Living Persona is based on.
...minimum of -16 BPs for resources which are sorely needed elsewhere (see above).

I agree with Tarantula, especially on having the ""friendly mage" with that Increased Reflexes spell. Otherwise find yourself a nice reinforced cellar and work from there remotely just like Otaku needed to do.

One thing concerning Otaku, while starting out fairly weak from the physical standpoint their Living Personas didn't suffer from implantation. As a matter of fact they were required to start with a datajack and ASIST converter implants.

Particle_Beam View Member Profile	Aug 5 2007, 10:57 PM Post #10
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909	How about having your friendly neighbourhood mage casting Increased Reflexes on you if you want to hack while in AR? You know, these spells can be cast upon other persons too.

Wasabi

Aug 6 2007, 02:45 AM

Post #11

Running Target

Group: Members
Posts: 1,251
Joined: 11-September 04
From: GA
Member No.: 6,651

QUOTE (Doctor Funkenstein)

Err, what exactly stops you from getting something like Synaptic Booster 1 or 2? Yes, your Resonance takes a hit just like a magician Magic does, but that's the price you pay if you want to be good inside the Matrix as well as out...

As soon as you drop to Resonance 5 you can no longer get two optional powers on a Sprite compiled/registered with Stun damage as a result. Sprites are key to being a successful TM and all TM's take Stun since there is no submerged power like Centering for magi.

A 5 Resonance seems on paper to be small but remember its not just a cap on stun-based Fading but also used for rolling to success with Resonance based skills and for FADING. It really does gimp a TM to drop to a 5.

That being said, there is precious little a TM can't do from an armored van in full VR if there is no wireless paint involved.

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 02:52 AM Post #12
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	Oh wow, you mean there's ACTUAL consequences for wanting to be an awesome Technomancer AND good in physical combat? Who woulda thunk it. That should be changed at once.

Gelare View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 03:42 AM Post #13
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 225 Joined: 13-July 07 Member No.: 12,235	Sorry Doc Funk, but I'm with Tarantula and friends on this one. It's simply bad game design to have a single class like Technomancer that can't get more initiative passes when every single other class can. Honestly, as cool as the matrix is, you can't kill people with it. Whereas you can kill people with manabolts and guns. Heck, even with those extra initiative passes, it's not as though the technomancer would be a killing machine. His maybe one rank in pistols would not do him a whole lot of good. What he could do is provide matrix backup for his teammates at reasonable speeds while still being able to walk. Is walking too much to ask? Honestly. Having the technomancer be dependent on the party mage - who might or might not even exist - to be effective is not good.

Fortune View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 03:45 AM Post #14
Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486	But that's the point. They can get extra IP if they so choose. There is just a trade-off.

Tarantula View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 03:48 AM Post #15
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	Yes, but that tradeoff is of terrible proportions in comparison to other character concepts.

Ol' Scratch View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 03:54 AM Post #16
Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890	First, there are no classes in this game. Second, they can -- as Fortune pointed out -- get the extra IP. It just comes at a cost. Just like everyone else. Mages have to give up a spell slot and buy and bond with a focus, a cyberjunkie has to give up Essence that could have gotten him another limb or some other awesome implants, riggers have to pay a bunch to get some implants instead of a few more drones or vehicles, hackers have the same issue, and an adept has to give up a big chunk of their power points that could have been used for cooler powers. Look! Everyone has to pay the price for their reflexes. Imagine. That. Third, how the hell do you propose to give Technomancers a "technomancer-only" way of boosting their reflexes? What? Now they can hack living people and boost their natural reflexes? How stupid would that be both conceptually and mechanically? Very. Especially since they can and do have no less than four options to improve their reflexes (Wired Reflexes, Move-By-Wire, Synaptic Booster, and Cram) outside of the Matrix. WHICH IS THEIR MAIN WEAKNESS -- they SUCK outside of the Matrix. You want your cake and eat it to? Pay the price. Else you better be advocating that everyone should be able to get boosted reflexes without having any consequences. Finally, if it's really a problem, just play a hacker. Or is there some other reason you want to ply a technomancer instead? Because they're better and more powerful? No, that couldn't be it... not at all.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 03:55 AM Post #17
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	maybe its not so much that tm's are underpowered but that mages are overpowered? hell, with ar interface a mage can now even kick ass online. one pc, all worlds (meat, astral, matrix) covered. anyone up for a build?

Tarantula View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 03:58 AM Post #18
Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,664 Joined: 21-September 04 From: Arvada, CO Member No.: 6,686	Heres the point. A cyberjunkie gives up essence to get the IP instead of a limb or other implants. A techno gives up essence to get the IP. He also gives up resonance which is the very core of what having the technomancer quality is. I note you don't mention that adepts could get cyber to get the extra IP also, which would be the best comparison you can make. Adepts/Mages have a magic rating, which they can lose in order to get cyber for extra IPs. However, they also have the option of using their magic rating in order to gain the extra IPs they need (via powers or spells). Technos have resonance, which they can lose in order to get cyber for extra IPs. But they have no way to use that resonance to gain extra IPs.

Jaid

Aug 6 2007, 03:58 AM

Post #19

Great Dragon

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813

QUOTE (Tarantula)

Yes, but that tradeoff is of terrible proportions in comparison to other character concepts.

indeed, i have to agree with this opinion.

the TM already pays for his awesome in the matrix by not having the BPs available to buy skills and attributes to be really good anywhere else.

and if he does ignore his TM abilities in favor of being effective outside of the matrix, then first off, he's ignoring the rule of the TM quality, and secondly, at that point he's traded in 90% of his awesome in the matrix, and can only ever make himself passable or decent in the matrix... which, for the record, a hacker can do for under 100k nuyen/20 BP. which is enough to buy the TM quality, raise resonance to 2 (which will be dropped back to 1 if you get *any* 'ware at all, and can very easily drop to 0 if you're not careful) and buy 5 points worth of CFs. or 1 point in a resonance skill group skill (presumably compiling) and a single CF)

what costs the hacker 20 BPs or so and doesn't require any particularly impressive attributes in the mental area (though of course it's always nice, but not having to worry about needing a 5 in an attribute means you don't need to worry about taking a -1 or -2 penalty to that attribute's max) isn't even quite possible at chargen for the TM (though they can cover up for the holes left in their abilities).

Particle_Beam View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 04:01 AM Post #20
Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 472 Joined: 14-June 07 Member No.: 11,909	Is character creation the only place and time where a character concept is considered valuable at all? Doesn't anybody just try and play first and get his character up to the better level together with the other characters played by the other players? Do people here only care about one-shots, or what?

Jaid

Aug 6 2007, 04:05 AM

Post #21

Great Dragon

Group: Members
Posts: 7,089
Joined: 4-October 05
Member No.: 7,813

QUOTE (Particle_Beam)

Is character creation the only place and time where a character concept is considered valuable at all? Doesn't anybody just try and play first and get his character up to the better level together with the other characters played by the other players? Do people here only care about one-shots, or what?

if there's one thing i've learned from D&D, it's that sucking for the first 5 levels does not compensate for being awesome the next 5 levels.

translation: the game should be fun from chargen. if being a wizard at level 1 sucks, but renders fighters obsolete later on (while conversely fighters are amazing at level 1, and then get a 1-way ticket to suck later on) that's not a good thing... that means that no matter what level you play at, someone is going to be innefective, which makes it awfully hard to enjoy the game.

Ol' Scratch

Aug 6 2007, 04:07 AM

Post #22

Immortal Elf

Group: Validating
Posts: 7,999
Joined: 26-February 02
Member No.: 1,890

QUOTE (Jaid)

...at that point he's traded in 90% of his awesome in the matrix, and can only ever make himself passable or decent in the matrix... which, for the record, a hacker can do for under 100k nuyen/20 BP...

As I said before, then: Stick with playing a hacker. They're clearly the superior choice and the poor, desperate, grossly underpowered technomancer doesn't stand a chance of keeping up with a hacker! They're just that pathetic. Woe is them. My heart is pouring out for them, it truly is.

Particle_Beam

Aug 6 2007, 04:28 AM

Post #23

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 472
Joined: 14-June 07
Member No.: 11,909

QUOTE

if there's one thing i've learned from D&D, it's that sucking for the first 5 levels does not compensate for being awesome the next 5 levels.

Wait? In D&D? The first five levels, that are quickly gone past, and where there aren't any major super-beasts and challenges anyhow, because everybody else would also die so fast?

If I were truly an optimized-focused player wishing to dominate the entire game with ease without any regards to my fellow players, I would always only play wizards or clerics and then change to the first wizard/cleric-directed prestige class as soon as possible. And even if no prestige classes were allowed, I would then simply play either a wizard or a cleric, and nothing else.

D&D is always the bad example to comparing the situation regarding SR, because the really funny stuff in D&D begins with level 8 upwards. And that's when wizards and clerics are leaving all the other classes behind, and only need them to be meat-shields anymore.

hobgoblin View Member Profile	Aug 6 2007, 04:43 AM Post #24
panda! Group: Members Posts: 10,331 Joined: 8-March 02 From: north of central europe Member No.: 2,242	how many initiative passes does a sprite get out of the box again? edit: found out. all of them get 3 pr default. so yet again the power of the tm lies in the sprites...

Vaevictis

Aug 6 2007, 05:17 AM

Post #25

Moving Target

Group: Members
Posts: 530
Joined: 11-June 05
Member No.: 7,441

QUOTE (Gelare)

Honestly, as cool as the matrix is, you can't kill people with it.

Clearly you have never heard of a drone.

QUOTE (hobgoblin)

hell, with ar interface a mage can now even kick ass online. one pc, all worlds (meat, astral, matrix) covered.

... as if a mage isn't enough of a karma sink as it is. If the mage is spending karma on computer and combat skills, he ain't spending it on becoming a better mage by initiating and increasing his magic.

Hmm, you know, that sounds kind of similar to the same boat the technomancer is in. Branch out, and you've paid an opportunity cost that's expressed by not being that much better in your specialty.

Look, it sucks to be a technomancer who's got to fight in the meat world. It's true.

... but that's why technomancers have drones. Most of the time, a technomancer doesn't have to fight in the meat world. He has drones -- hopefully commanded by sprites, right? -- to do that for him.

« Next Oldest · Shadowrun · Next Newest »