 Living Focus - why the bad rap?, Why would you -not- want this power? |
 Aug 8 2007, 07:35 PM
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#1
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Old Man of the North  Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,451 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463  |
I see many references here in DS to the adept power Living Focus as being a waste of time. The worst I have seen said about it is that it takes 2 dice away from actions by the adept.
But, any kind of sustained spell takes those dice away from somebody, usually the mage. A sustaining focus eliminates that detraction, but an adept can't use those, and sustaining foci are usually limited in rating, particularly at character generation. An adept with Living Focus: 1) allows the mage to cast a spell on him and be free to do other things without cost ("Sure, I'll cast that on you, it's no skin off my teeth.") 2) can accept spells of any kind from any mage in the party. Mondo flexible. 3) acts as a focus of rating equal to his Magic, which will usually be 4 or more and be able to grow with no limit. ("He has armor WHAT??!!") 4) can choose to drop the sustained spell whenever the -2 dice cost becomes more expensive than all the benefits of 1) to 3) above. Why would you not want your adept to have this power? |
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Aug 8 2007, 07:39 PM
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#2
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,244 Joined: 2-August 07 Member No.: 12,442 |
That's what I was thinking. I might drop it in on my guy at, but it will depend on what mage we have. If he's got a nice little selection of spells, I wouldn't mind. I can always drop the sustained spell when I want to actually use my skills to their fullest.
Then again, I have never played the game before..... |
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Aug 8 2007, 07:51 PM
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#3
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Technomancer Group: Retired Admins Posts: 4,638 Joined: 2-October 02 From: Champaign, IL Member No.: 3,374 |
The big advantage that I've seen is #2. That sustaining foci must be aspected to a type of magic (e.g., health) but a Living Focus can sustain any sustained spell .... that's just cool.
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Aug 8 2007, 08:08 PM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 986 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,093 |
Power points are relatively limited by Magic, and it's costly enough to Initiate and raise Magic and get the Adept Power.
Meanwhile, Karma is gained through various means and a lot of a foci's cost also comes from its material cost. It's extremely cool to be able to sustain a spell your team mage puts on you, but it's probably best to bring the Mage along a few more runs and pay for the material costs of a Foci. Then you can get something cool. I don't think it's a bad choice, just a suboptimal one considering all the stuff you could get as a Power that you can't get anywhere else. I'd like it even more if somehow the power helped the Mage's drain somewhat by lending him one of your own stats as a bonus or a replacement if it's higher. |
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Aug 8 2007, 08:13 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,244 Joined: 2-August 07 Member No.: 12,442 |
Always room for a GM house rule errata.....Right Dash!
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Aug 8 2007, 08:13 PM
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#6
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
If I can free up a magic point I'll definitely be getting it for my mental adept. Magic 4 means he can hit me up with Increased Reflexes 4 and a few extra IPs. Given the results of my last run-in with IC, being able to hack in VR but still have 4 IPs will be nice. And I don't have to ask him to spend 8 karma. Plus if I ever need him to hook me up with something different (maybe a Heal after a firefight, or a Prophylaxis before a night on the town)* I don't have to worry about impairing his abilities or buying (and bonding) another focus.
* edit: those are bad examples, since they'd all fall under a single health focus. Swap them out with Armor, Invisibility, or Stealth to better show the power's versatility. |
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Aug 8 2007, 08:15 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
Where else can you get a 0 :nuyen: , 0 karma, universal sustaining focus whose power increases as the group gains karma? |
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Aug 8 2007, 08:18 PM
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#8
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,069 Joined: 19-July 07 From: Oakland CA Member No.: 12,309 |
Especially if you factor in spirits if you mage can summon spirts of man he can have it sustain an any spell he knows on you. He has it preform one remote service on you (constant use of the option power "Any spell know to the caster") and it doesn't even count against his limits, no karma, no powers, no -2s.
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Aug 8 2007, 08:22 PM
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#9
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,069 Joined: 19-July 07 From: Oakland CA Member No.: 12,309 |
@ James. How do you figure it as zero karma? To reacquire the resources spent on it costs +1 magic and usually +1 initiation. I'd hardly call that free.
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Aug 8 2007, 08:34 PM
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#10
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,244 Joined: 2-August 07 Member No.: 12,442 |
Weavermount brings up a good point. I have no clue how that all works, but it certainly seems much better. And it doesn't cost you anything, just the mage.
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Aug 8 2007, 08:43 PM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,430 Joined: 10-January 05 From: Fort Worth, Texas Member No.: 6,957 |
I'm talking 0 karma for the mage. When asking someone to do something that requires them to spend karma, that tends to be the biggest limiting factor. In regards to karma for the adept, it costs precisely as much as any other point worth of powers, so the karma cost becomes irrelevant to the discussion. |
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Aug 8 2007, 08:49 PM
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#12
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
It's those -2 dice. It's not that it's a bad tradeoff, but most adepts are trying to maximize their dice pool, and anything that works against that is off the table.
Another part of it is that it requires a mage to cast the spell on you. Teamwork is important, but so is self-reliance. I think if it weren't a full Power point, it would be more attractive. It's more of a half point power, if you ask me. |
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Aug 8 2007, 08:53 PM
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#13
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,244 Joined: 2-August 07 Member No.: 12,442 |
Wink, wink Dash.... Plus, it would be pretty cool to have a mage be addicted to using use as a foci. |
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Aug 8 2007, 09:11 PM
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#14
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 986 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,093 |
On him. That's the rub. The normal sustaining focus works on anyone/anything, but just for one spell type. So great, you can give the Adept any sustained spell on his own. Or you can give one spell to anyone. But I wouldn't call it "free" exactly. That power is in place of another power. Where else are you going to get, let's say, +4 to Analyzing crazy problems? Extra dice you can't get anywhere else? Kinesics? Power Throw? If it factors into your tightly knit shadowrunning team to have the adept magic'd up then it's fine. 'Suboptimal' doesn't mean 'sucks'. |
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Aug 8 2007, 09:40 PM
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#15
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
You're missing the entire -2 Dicepool penalty for every single thing you do while acting as a Living Focus. You may as well just reduce all your attributes by 2 points and use the, what?, 100 or so Build Points to get yourself whatever perks you would have gotten via the spell you want. Particularly in the way of boosted reflexes. Same end effect; -2 dice to almost everything you do.
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Aug 8 2007, 09:41 PM
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#16
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,206 Joined: 9-July 06 From: Fresno, CA Member No.: 8,856 |
Actually a radically different end effect seeing as you can choose to cancel the effect anytime you like and get those dice back.
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Aug 8 2007, 09:48 PM
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#17
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,219 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Lofwyr's stomach. Member No.: 1,320 |
Here's the deal for me: It's a dud power in my opinion unless it is altered to ahve some advantage for the mystic adept. As it stands, it does nothing for you if you're a mystic adept, and yet thematically they seem the ones most likely to want to use it.
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Aug 8 2007, 09:50 PM
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#18
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,451 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
Whatever 1 Power Point worth of adept Power you give up to have Living Focus is replaced by an extremely flexible, interchangeable "Power Point" worth of all kinds of abilities, many of which the adept could never have on her own. DSers recognize the usefulness of skillwires. Living Focus is a parallel to that implant in the magical realm. Yes, it does require cooperation among team members. So what? So does any run worth the :nuyen: |
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Aug 8 2007, 09:55 PM
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#19
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Immortal Elf Group: Validating Posts: 7,999 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,890 |
Once again: -2 dicepool penalty. Skillwires don't give you a -2 dicepool penalty. Living Focus does, which is why it's subpar at best.
All it does is transfer the -2 penalty from the mage to the adept. That's all it offers, which is great for the mage but terrible for the adept. Which, for an adept who's going to be using whatever spell is being sustained, sucks even more since the mage could have just stayed in the background maintaining it while improving the adept with the spell. |
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Aug 8 2007, 10:03 PM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,244 Joined: 2-August 07 Member No.: 12,442 |
Could you sustain an area invisibility on said adept? Just have him walk around eminating a sphere of invisibility?
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Aug 8 2007, 10:07 PM
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#21
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,451 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
or the mage could be nuking the enemy free of hindrance. Yes, the -2 penalty is a cost but by that logic sustained spells are all a waste of time. There are many instances where the adept doesn't need to be doing a zillion things at once, only the thing which the sustained spell has allowed/enhanced her to do. |
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Aug 8 2007, 10:10 PM
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#22
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 986 Joined: 29-June 07 Member No.: 12,093 |
Yes. And for that 1 point I could have brought something ELSE on the table that you couldn't replicate with a Sustaining Focus and some Karma. Let's see +4 to Perception/Assensing tests, +4 to Social tests where you're physically present, +2 Spell Resistance, L4 Analytics which may just help you figure out a problem or deduce something that your GM planted and will love you for, L4 Facial Sculpt which can give you a fairly new face for Magic hours, Traceless Walk, and all the smaller little things that are fun and useful. -2 to all my tests or eating once a day and sleeping for 3 hours, quickdrawing any weapon and readying to attack it with one action, and being able to replace a clip with a free action. Yes, it's good. No, it's not "free". There are better things that a Mage can't bring to the table with all his spells (or at least undetectable as his spells aren't). Dude, anyone recognizes the usefulness of skillwires. One Rating 3 Skillwire pretty much sets you up for the rest of your career as long as you can get the soft for it. This isn't the same thing at all. And it's more than just cooperation, it's coordination. You're relying on this adept to have this power on him and the spell the mage casts. You'd raise your power level appropriately too. Giving the Adept say a Force 6 Combat Senses spell would let him throw some dice against getting caught in a Full Auto attack (provided he had more than 3 Reaction to begin with and had 6 hits). Also, have you given any thought to Counterspelling? True, it means the enemy Mage that tries to Dispel the sustained effect isn't hurling a fireball at your face and whatnot, and it's hard to really beat going up against Force + Magic vs Magic + Counterspelling which could easily be 12 vs 6 + (1-6), and the drain will be a pain. But that power A) Lights up the Adept, B) Can be reduced by an average Wagemage, and so on. A Mage with a sustaining focus can suffer the same fate. But he didn't waste an Adept's power point with it. |
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Aug 8 2007, 10:24 PM
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#23
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Old Man of the North Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 10,451 Joined: 14-August 03 From: Just north of the Centre of the Universe Member No.: 5,463 |
There is a nearly infinite list of powers the adept could choose from if he didn't take Living Focus. That list would be reduced in number by 1(or a few) if he took one of them instead of Living Focus. There will always be things you wish your adept had, if only he had the points. Saying you could have had -this- if you hadn't taken -that- can be said of any adept Power.
I argue flexibility and ability to coordinate with other team members to fit the needs of the moment are valuable commodities. The -2 dice cost is applicable only as long as the function the sustained spell is performing outweighs it. After that, drop the spell and go ahead and wow/elude/destroy the enemy with that extra 2 dice. I guess it needs to be tested in play. |
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Aug 8 2007, 11:17 PM
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#24
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
But then that same argument could be said for just letting the Mage sustain the Spell himself in the first place, and not wasting the PP. All you are doing is shifting the Sustaining penalty from one person to another, and while useful in certain situations, I don't think it is worth the price of 1 PP. |
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Aug 9 2007, 12:09 AM
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#25
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Anyone that does take Living Focus might also be advised to initiate and take the Adept Centering metamagic.
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