 Shadowrun without Earthdawn as past, Quick Poll |
 Dec 4 2007, 10:15 PM
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#1
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Dragon  Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014  |
Simple question: Does the Earthdawn Link define Shadowrun, or could it be replaced with some other "4th World" as a past for the setting, without losing what makes it Shadowrun?
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Dec 4 2007, 10:17 PM
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#2
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
TECHNICALLY . . SR defines Earth-Dawn, as Earth-Dawn is what Episodes 1 to 3 are for Star-Wars . . a made after the fact prequel . .
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Dec 4 2007, 10:19 PM
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#3
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...may the plascrete brick tossing begin (wait, let me put up my physical barrier first). :grinbig:
[edit] gosh darnit, Stahlseele, you got in ahead of me... :grinbig: |
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Dec 4 2007, 10:31 PM
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#4
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
yay! i beat THE kyoto kid! *glee* ^^
by the way, i would have voted for NO, just because i like the backstory, even if it means dealing with Immoral Elves <.< . . |
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Dec 4 2007, 10:47 PM
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#5
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,069 Joined: 19-July 07 From: Oakland CA Member No.: 12,309 |
Earth Dawn was my first RPG love. Just have to put that out there.
That said, almost anything you include from the fourth world IS home brewed anyway. It is hard cannon that the mana cycle did crazy reality hackery some you can put in almost anything you want. IMG all Earth Dawn links are only easter eggs for the devoted. |
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Dec 4 2007, 10:53 PM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,817 |
Well, if your "other" generic fantasy 4th world fit with all the SR references to the earlier ages, then it would still be SR. But that would make the homebrew fantasy a lot like earthdawn..
So that's a no |
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Dec 4 2007, 11:40 PM
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#7
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Earthdawn has the benefit that it fits nicely into the backstory of Shadowrun...but from an objective standpoint, it doesn't really, really matter.
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Dec 4 2007, 11:52 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Honestly, how many people go around talking about the 4th world all the time anyway?
Mr. Johnson: "I'm in the market for some bloodthirsty mercenaries with grenades to quietly obtain my competition's prototype. Also, did you know that our only hope against the Horrors is an immortal elf? He comes from the 4th world." Runners: "Well, how much would we get pai--Did you say immortal elf? Tell us, did this 4th world have any societies, and how does this affect Ehran/Lofwyr relations?" It's asinine. The stuff can be true or not true in most games, and it really doesn't affect things either way, if you're playing a game about Shadowrunners, and not some ridiculous soap opera about rich people. |
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Dec 5 2007, 12:06 AM
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#9
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Nice try, Starfox.
Well, there is a german RPG that was derived from Shadowrun, objectively and consequently removing every Earthdawn reference and implication, then cleaning up logical inconsisties. Let's just say it was not Shadowrun, even though it included orks, elves, magic, corporations and shooting people in the face for money. It's the common thing about goind back in history and changing things... |
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Dec 5 2007, 12:08 AM
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#10
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Was Shadowrun still Shadowrun BEFORE Earthdawn was created?
But then again, I tend to really butcher the Earthdawn Canon, especially considering that the only topic I'm really interested in from that gameline is the Horrors, in my campaigns the Fourth World looks more like a post-apoc vision of Disney's Atlantis viewed through a looking glass darkly. But then again, with the exception of when the Runners stumble onto a tainted Kaer or some other Fourth World artifact it really doesn't matter what the past was like, the 2070s are all about what is going down this very nano-second, not relics of the distant past, I mean who really fragging cares about what happened last year, much less several thousand years ago... |
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Dec 5 2007, 12:09 AM
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#11
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Rotbart: Was ist das?
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Dec 5 2007, 12:11 AM
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#12
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,629 Joined: 14-December 06 Member No.: 10,361 |
This should be included as a disclaimer to every thread about Immortal elves and Great Dragons. |
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Dec 5 2007, 12:17 AM
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#13
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
If you meant 'What german RPG?' - it was called X-Punk. For a reason. Basically, it was more like Cyberpunk - with magic and genetically engineered metahumans.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Big D's Will, as well as other related SBs mostly a plothook to affect runners? |
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Dec 5 2007, 12:30 AM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
That's a new one on me.
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Dec 5 2007, 12:41 AM
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#15
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Grew from the SFD (Street Fighter's Digest) - a supplement to beat some sense into old SR weapon rules.
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Dec 5 2007, 12:45 AM
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#16
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Sure it was, but - you don't need to have Earthdawn as a background to use Dunkelzahn's will in game. It's not as if they stated "and this is that from ED, that is this from ED" - knowledge of Earthdawn was not required to run any SR adventure. Which is my point - one can run SR without using ED, and without changing it significantly in a way that affects 99% of all campaigns. To sum it up: ED does not really matter at all other than serving as possible fluff for some magical threats. Even all the moving and plotting of immortals and Dragons do not need ED specific motivations. |
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Dec 5 2007, 12:49 AM
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#17
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 315 Joined: 12-October 03 From: Germany, Regensburg Member No.: 5,709 |
Surely "forgetting" Earthdawn will not affect most players. Some details perhaps, but imho the bugs (for example) had a bigger influence on the 6. World than the horrors - and even the immortal Elves could be erased without problems. But the big question is: Would this still be Shadowrun? That depends on how you define "Setting X equals Setting Y".
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Dec 5 2007, 01:00 AM
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#18
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Just SR happens to look the way today it does because of ED and vice versa. If you exchange ED to a generic fantasy system or no fantasy at all, you get a generic cyberpunk system instead of SR. Nothing wrong with that, it has been done.
You just need the knowledge from it to understand some of them. The Will, Harlekin and even SotF mostly make no deeper sense without. Of course, if playing 'no answers' anyway, it doesn't make much of a difference. But that's not the question asked in the poll. That's just "Do you need to know everything about the background of a RPG to play it?" Which the answer to is obviously No. Changing the history however will change the background. |
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Dec 5 2007, 01:20 AM
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#19
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Shadowrun is shaped by the history detailed in Shadowrun - the history of the 6th world. The "4th world" is not crucial. Delete it, and it's still Shadowrun. Replace it with generic fantasy with demons and it's the same outcome. |
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Dec 5 2007, 01:25 AM
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#20
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I just tend to ignore the whole bleedin' mess altogether. Yes SR was still SR Before ED was around. I particularly enjoyed the Native American influence of those early "pre(post?)-ED" days. |
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Dec 5 2007, 01:32 AM
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#21
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, not even that... it builds on real-world history, too.
The mayan mana cycle is, as it's mentioned in the 6th world history. And if you define that 4th world different to Earthdawn, Shadowrun would look differently. That's what every time-travel scifi is about. ;) |
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Dec 5 2007, 02:18 AM
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#22
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Meh, I seem to remember that Big D wasn't all that impressed by the Mayan Calandar, as for the rest, I just have to disagree, as long as your Fourth World has Mana Cycles, Dragons, Immortal Elves, and Demons from beyond that can only cross over at the peak of the Mana Cycle the actual details are just so far removed from the Sixth World to even be important.
Many of us played Shadowrun before those very details were even set in stone and it was still Shadowrun, and I'm fairly sure that many people play Shadowrun without having a clue about the details behind Earthdawn. |
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Dec 5 2007, 03:07 AM
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#23
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I never really got into ED, and having played SR since before it was introduced my feeling is its not all that crucial. (I also always thought ED was the 2nd Cycle, rather than the 4th, because that's what my SR GM at the time told me when ED was coming out, and if I was misinformed, I've been misinformed for about 15 years even though I can't honestly say it would make any difference one way or the other.) Personally, I never really saw the point of ED as a history of this world since this world already has a history, and it has legends and myths and weirdness. In fact, most (if not all) of the fantastic elements in SR came out of the legends, myths and weirdness of the real world, so adding in a completely different backstory seemed a little strange.
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Dec 5 2007, 06:41 AM
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#24
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Myself, I like the ED/SR link. But essential? No.
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Dec 5 2007, 07:38 AM
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#25
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
SFD was in incredibly bloated ebook - ambitious yet misguided (I was briefly involved as a proof-reader). Basically it was a gun catalog but also contained a complete damage/combat rules replacement. Some of that (mainly the guns) was really good stuff. But there was also a lot of bad stuff: Some sub-par fiction pieces (e.g. a both blatant and amateurish Black Hawk Down rip-off set in the barrens) and lengthy, totally uniteresting for the average player, discussions about ballistics and firearms mechanics. The authors' premise was that, in order play a gun-using character right™, you had to know exactly how firearms worked in real life! The whole thing was about 500 pages, IIRC... The authors originally planned to have that book released as an official third-party SR book due to a misunderstanding that soon fell apart (for-free-fanstuff vs. commercial product). In addition, some of them were very active and blunt in critisizing virtually all aspects of SR on FanPro D's official forums - their core "discussion" strategy being to accuse everyone not of their opinion of playing the game "wrong™" or simply being stupid. They made some good points but those were usually buried under immediate flamewars caused by their arrogant and condescending posting style. When the whole SR-supplement angle fell through the SFD authors declared their plan to expand it into a whole RPG called "X-Punk" that could actually be described as "as close a copy of SR as we can get away with - but with our superior™ rules". |
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Dec 5 2007, 07:44 AM
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#26
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
And it went belly up pretty soon - the homepage vanished, the forum is closed... Last thing I heard was the rules now being used for a home-brew Star Wars campaign. I would have liked to see it actually released just to see how it would've turned out. I know there were quite some bets going on after the announcement of that "superior™" game that would appeal to "every SR player" but just be "better™" than SR in "every aspect". |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:29 AM
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#27
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Well, like psykotisk_overlegen put it - that 'as long as' is growing quite large if you think about it.
Actually, Shdowrun would be a completly different game if it was based just/heavily on RL legends extensively... and we would have more people complaining about historical accuracy. ;) |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:55 AM
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#28
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Freelance Elf Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 7,324 Joined: 30-September 04 From: Texas Member No.: 6,714 |
Why not just call this poll "do you like the ED links?" because that's all that's really being asked.
You can't really vote in a poll like this with any accuracy, or argue about what "Shadowrun" is or isn't -- because it's so many different things to so many different players, GMs, and (obviously) even game developers. To some people it's all about gritty crime on the rough streets of Seattle, to others it's slick operatives living the high life of a freelance superspy/assassin, to others it's nothing but a sort of futuretech-augmented fantasy setting chock full of the machinations of powerful Elves and ruthless Dragons, and to some it's nothing but a Michael Mann flick with magic for a bigger special effects budget. It varies so very wildly from campaign to campaign, and sometimes even session to session, that pinning down what's "essential" to Shadowrun, what makes it whatever it is, is like trying to staple Jell-o to a wall. Good luck. |
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Dec 5 2007, 09:19 AM
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#29
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Or rather: "Does the combined history with Earthdawn distinguishes Shadowrun from any other modern-fantasy system"? |
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Dec 5 2007, 09:36 AM
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#30
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
The point of the poll is exactly that - to see for how many players and GMs the ED links are something that defines Shadowrun.
Having started in SR1, ED does not define SR for me. |
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Dec 5 2007, 09:53 AM
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#31
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Well, the SR1 definition of the setting is pretty different than the current one.
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Dec 5 2007, 10:05 AM
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#32
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Magic - check
Megacorps - check Metahumans - check Social issues - check Dragons - check Shadowrunners - check Cyberware - check Private Police - check Paracritters - check Matrix - check Native american, elven and other new states - check Doesn't look like there are that many differences between SR1 and SR4 to me. The toys changed a bit, some borders changed, a few logos of corps changed. |
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Dec 5 2007, 10:07 AM
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#33
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Another question is: If ED is essential for Shadowrun, if it defines Shadowrun, then where are the sourcebooks detailing it for Shadowrun? The "Secrets of the 4th World"? The "Neo-Anarchists' Guide to Barsaive"? The "This is what you need to know about Earthdawn if you want to play Shadowrun" Guide?
All we have are obscure and veiled hints, nothing concrete, nothing on the level of what we have on other threats like insect spirits, or on cities, or corps. Even LoneStar has a ton more info available for GMs and players than the ED link. Either FASA and Catalyst have been messing up for years by neglecting to give us crucial information, or ED simply is not essential for Shadowrun. |
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Dec 5 2007, 11:01 AM
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#34
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Midnight Toker Group: Members Posts: 7,686 Joined: 4-July 04 From: Zombie Drop Bear Santa's Workshop Member No.: 6,456 |
Earthdawn is essential,. to some degree, if you want to dig that deep into the historic metaplot. But you don't, really. You aren't supposed to. There are only small hints for things past, PCs are supposed to see them but they aren't supposed to know what they mean. The truth is more of an Easter Egg than anything else. It helps when dealing with GDs and IEs and Sprites (Windlings) and Obsidimen, things which are rarely dealt with but which do exist in the canon. It isn't meant to be out in the open.
It also provides a good and useful foundation for dealing with Metaphysics, since the people of Earthdawn have a much greater understanding of magic and metaphysics than those who live in the time of Shadowrun do. It is easier to keep them mostly separate, so SR will never have many specific details of ED. |
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Dec 5 2007, 12:07 PM
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#35
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 269 Joined: 8-November 04 Member No.: 6,817 |
Earthdawn provides the "this is how it is" explanations that GMs need to present the magical leftovers from 4th correctly (unless they just want to make stuff up as they go along, which is also fine). Players in SR will never have a need of knowing how the magic of the 6th world really works, but will appreciate the relative consistency that a GM basing his magic on that of ED will present. |
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Dec 5 2007, 12:30 PM
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#36
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Back when we played both ED and SR, we were rather annoyed by the differences in magic. Stuff like "Hey, if ED is sooo much more advanced, why can't we astrally project as easy as every mage in SR?" and "Why are our spell selections so limited?" not to mention "Why on earth do my spells have less range in ED than in SR?" were much more common than "oh, nice, now we know why this artefact works like it does" - since it usually did not work like in ED.
The whole "crossover" felt rather forced, and not really logical based upon the system differences. |
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Dec 5 2007, 01:15 PM
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#37
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Awakened Asset Group: Members Posts: 4,464 Joined: 9-April 05 From: AGS, North German League Member No.: 7,309 |
There needs to be a 4th world. That world does not have to be ED, but any consistent world brings with it the things that annoy the cyberpunk players. So I voted No.
One could "purify" SR by removing the 4th world and all references to it. Dragons do not awaken but come into existence by the power of collective myth. Awakened creatures still awaken due to metagenes. Some shadowtalk has to die, Harlequin is a lunatic and The Darke a toxic mage. It would not affect most campaigns, but it would not be SR as written. All that should not stop anyone from ignoring ED. I´m doing my very best to un-see all information on Battletech: The Dark Age. |
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Dec 5 2007, 01:31 PM
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#38
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
"Powerful" so much more "powerful." No one said anything about advanced. |
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Dec 5 2007, 01:43 PM
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#39
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Dragon Group: Members Posts: 4,328 Joined: 28-November 05 From: Zuerich Member No.: 8,014 |
Not even powerful, to be honest - compared to what we did with magic (and karma) in SR1 and SR2, even high-circle ED spellcasters felt weak. Aerea of effect, range, and the effect itself (easily boosted with Karma Pool/bought successes) made magic far more powerful in SR than in ED. Especially the elemental manipulation spells, like flame thrower, were much more powerful than just about every spell from ED since they were much harder to resist even with Shielding.
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Dec 5 2007, 02:24 PM
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#40
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Maybe, but I wouldn't even say you need all of that. I don't really see why you need magic to be "returning." Nobody really knows about the 4th world in game anyway, except for the IE's, and you can just ignore them, too. You need Dragons, but you don't need them to have come from some 4th world, and you don't need Horrors, either. And if you want them anyway, you can make them unique spirits like the Bugs. But honestly, I don't even see most of that stuff as being "setting" at all. It's plot. Things like the IEs and Horrors haven't really been confirmed in setting books; it's all modules, if I'm not mistaken. And the thing about those is, modules don't happen until you run them. For instance, the events of, say, Harlequin don't happen in my campaigns until and unless the group plays the Harlequin module, if for no other reason than so that the group can play Harlequin later if they choose. |
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Dec 5 2007, 02:26 PM
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#41
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Take a look at the Fifteenth Circle spells sometime and think again. |
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Dec 5 2007, 02:30 PM
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#42
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I don't really see how it would be all that different. SR came out of the real world, more-or-less, and the real world came out of the history of the world, and most if not all of the magic and creatures in SR were based on real-world legends. If ED had come first, I could see your point, but it was a retcon. I never really saw the need for concrete backstory. Was there magic in past ages? Yes. What it looked like, no one really knows. There might be Immortal Elves from a previous age, or perhaps the Dragons remember something but 1) It doesn't really matter and 2) there are so many more people claiming to be from a past age that would be impossible to separate the wheat from the chaff. (This is similar to the Vampire cliche of vampires claiming to be present at the Crucifixion, called about by Spike in 2nd Season of Buffy, "If every vampire who claimed to be at the Crucifixion were really there it would have looked like Woodstock. Now, I actually was at Woodstock...") I have never minded a setting including something unknowable. There are so many unknowable things in the real world that I find putting them in the fiction increases the verisimilitude. I think if you define too much, ultimately you cheapen it. Magic is supposed to be the mysterious, fantastic and, well... magical thing, but most of the time in games its handled with all the mysticism of applying for a small-business loan. Which is not meant to take anything away from ED, viewed as a stand-alone setting. I've never really associated ED and SR together, because I prefer to keep the lost ages lost. Not everything needs to be defined. Whether or not Achilles was a mythical invention or a grade 4 phys as is something for the in-game scholars to debate, its not a question that needs an answer (and even if you have one, what difference would it make?) It just strikes me as a little hubristic to say (and for whatever reason, I picture Futurama's Bender saying this), "The history of the world? I guess that's a pretty good world history. But I think we can come up with something better." It has taken billions of humans thousands of years to cook up the bizarre shit we call history (what little we know of it, anyway), anything that can fit in an rpg text is going to be reductive. I mean, its the history of the world. Its the richest tapestry imaginable. |
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Dec 5 2007, 02:40 PM
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#43
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Shooting Target Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 1,755 Joined: 5-September 06 From: UCAS Member No.: 9,313 |
The original question is a little confusing with a quick glance. Earthdawn is by no means needed for SR. But SR was "evolved" into Earthdawn with its release.
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Dec 5 2007, 03:08 PM
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#44
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Actually, SR has more in common with Tolkiens artifical legends than real ones. Local legends & myth still are barely touched by SR - there so many of them and some so extensive that even some of them suffice to create a new RPG. Neil Gaimans American Gods is a nice read. |
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Dec 5 2007, 03:58 PM
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#45
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...in a way Rotbart is correct, Yes you have the same key elements, but the "legends" fluff back then tended to revolve more around Native American myths and appeared it would continue along those lines as the game grew. Instead the NA influence has almost disappeared in 4th ed. There are no more Shamans in the sense that they were totally distinctive from Hermetics. Now you can choose if you want to follow a totem Back then, as a Shaman, you had to have a totem. A Mage can say she follows the "Shaman's Way", but now she too can bind a spirit (a number of sprits mind you) just as a Hermetic bound elementals. I miss the old Hearth, City, Street and other Nature sprits. It added a wonderful and "different" feel to the game. In homogenising magic with 4e, the developers blurred the old traditional lines to the point of non-existence. Besides the Awakening, one of the large turning points in SR fictional history was the Great Ghost Dance. It brought about the balkanisation (for lack of a better term) of North America and pretty much spelled the end for the last remaining western Superpower, the old United States. That is pretty heavy stuff in my book. Now all this appears to be overshadowed by the presence (and ties to the 4th world) of IEs and GDs. To tell the truth I would much rather the developers continued developing the Native American angle (and native traditions in other parts of the world). |
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Dec 5 2007, 04:04 PM
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#46
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..and the setting revolved heavily around neoanarchism and music. There were even rules for playing a rock star that ran the shadows. Those times are gone for good. |
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Dec 5 2007, 04:08 PM
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#47
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I know :frown:. I still have my original copy of Shadowbeat and in previous polls on "Your Favourite SR Books" it always topped my list. I also have the NeoAnarchit's Guides as well and even wrote one of my own up called The (Unofficial) NeoAnarchist's Guide to Near Space for a campaign I was running back then.
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Dec 5 2007, 04:18 PM
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#48
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Ouch... one steak too much it seems: The rabbit told me, too. |
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Dec 5 2007, 05:21 PM
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#49
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
You might want to look for spoilers about the Ghost Dance, Kyoto Kid. Or not. I can't remember which book it's in (Harlequin's Back, maybe), but it will break your heart.
And yes, I love the Neo-A's guides and Shadowbeat, too. Unfortunately, it was the guys in my old group that had them, and life turned out to be our Yoko. A guy in my new group got me Shadowbeat as a present the other week, though, and now I clog up the bureaucracy I work for by reading it all day instead of doing my job. Unfortunately, it doesn't make me want to play 4th, it makes me want to play 1st. Anyway, I'm fairly certain it has nothing to do with Earthdawn, yet for some people, it's the definitive "setting" book of SR. |
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Dec 5 2007, 05:31 PM
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#50
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 633 Joined: 23-February 06 Member No.: 8,301 |
I can't answer the question with yes or no. I like the elements of Earthdawn that I know about (not too much, I never played it), and they are increasingly integral to my game. But Earthdawn does not define my Shadowrun. I define it. And I define what parts of Earthdawn (and what parts of Shadowrun canon) are relevant to my game.
In truth, though, you never need to mention anything at all about Earthdawn stuff, mana cycles, horrors, immortal elves, etc. in a Shadowrun game. It's not necessary, least of all in a gritty street-level game. |
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Dec 5 2007, 06:03 PM
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#51
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246 |
I never really used the ED connection very much when I was GM'ing SR games myself. I only got the ED big book because of the SR connection. After looking through it a little bit (and feeling completely lost :( ) I sold the book to a friend and pretty much ignored it, except for discussions on Dumpshock and looking through Ancient History's files.
So, like others have said above, I think it adds some to the background, but unless your game is Uber-level, it ain't gonna make much difference to Joe Runner. |
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Dec 5 2007, 06:33 PM
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#52
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
..all I remember is what I read from the limited amount 1st ed stuff. Don't tell me that those blasted IEs went & mucked with that too. |
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Dec 5 2007, 06:35 PM
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#53
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
well, it was half-IE. and half-horror! Thais, son of Aina and... Ysgarth, or something, i think? he taught the injuns how to ghost dance. twice, actually--once back in the 18th or 19th century, and then again in the early 21st.
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Dec 5 2007, 06:35 PM
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#54
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
We won't tell you, then. Uh, wait - too late. |
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Dec 5 2007, 06:36 PM
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#55
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
Ysrthgrathe.
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Dec 5 2007, 06:37 PM
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#56
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...isn't that a minion of Cthulu? :grinbig:
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Dec 5 2007, 08:08 PM
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#57
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
You laugh, but I think that's what it was intended as, actually. If I recall correctly, about the time I heard of it was about the time I started hearing of concepts like "Cthulhu-punk."
As a disclaimer, when I heard of something is not neccessarily an indicator of when it actually happened. I'm just saying that's how it seemed to me. |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:16 PM
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#58
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
Cthulhu-Punk?
well, now there's Cthulhu-Tech . . which quite heavyly steals from NGE, if i read that right *g* |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:30 PM
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#59
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...SR & Cthulu... hmmmmmm...
There already is Delta Green - CoC in the modern age. Why not Cthulu in the Awakened Age? Better than a pointy-eared-scaly-hided soap opera. :Cthulu: |
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Dec 5 2007, 08:39 PM
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#60
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Aside from the races, there's not that much overt Tolkien in SR. (I'm not a huge fan of Tolkien, I read most of the Lord of the Rings in high school, I saw the movies, that's about it. I have friends that can discuss the Silmarillion ad infinitum, but I've never been that interested. Not a knock against Tolkien, just identifying my bias.) If anything, the racial stereotypes come out of Tolkien, but those are basically just identifiers of in-game racism. (And Tolkien took a lot of his stuff from legends and myth, going back to my theory they there's nothing new under the sun.) Also, there was some Tolkien influence in SR originally (it pretty much was fantasy at the time SR was written), and ED grew out of SR, but ED isn't Tolkienish Fantasy-- at least it never seemed so to me. (Having identified my bias above as someone who hasn't read a lot of Tolkien or a lot of ED, I might be missing something there.) There's a lot of Lovecraft in the Horrors (and a lot of the Alien Movies in the Insect Spirits), and you can say that Tolkien and Lovecraft were recipients of fever dreams of past ages and interpreted them as best they could, or you could say the game designers were ripping off popular sources; either works for me. Almost everything in rpg's is derivative. But the Paranormal Animals guides aren't a list of creatures from Tolkien, and the magical traditions don't come solely or even primarily out of fantasy. (And fantasy, as a genre, tends to be mined from the same real world sources.) SR derived from myths, and ED derived from SR. That was one of the original ideas of SR, that our myths and legends had been inspired by actual things in previous high mana cycles. The record was imperfect, but when magic returned to the world it redefined in history (as well as the present) what was impossible. Adding ED seemed like an unecessary step, essentially saying, "Its possible that all the magic and myth in history is factual. And also, here's a completely new set of magic and myths no one knows about." I think its an easier claim to make that the SR metaplots are harder to separate from ED than the system, since ED was developed as the backstory to the metaplots that were developing in SR. But even so, the metaplots aren't the game. |
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Dec 5 2007, 09:25 PM
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#61
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Indirectly and partially, that was my point. There are quite some games based more directly on legends, and most of them come from WW.
Sure. The game is pure perspective. |
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Dec 5 2007, 10:02 PM
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#62
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Prime Runner Group: Banned Posts: 3,732 Joined: 1-September 05 From: Prague, Czech Republic Member No.: 7,665 |
I actually find that Earthdawn is pretty hard to justify against the backdrop of Shadowrun. Seriously, the ancient cities, the massive wars, the untold devastation caused by Horrors - it's all way too recent. And it just isn't in our records.
A past age of magic would have to have been much... lower key than Earthdawn was to fit smoothely into the way Shadowrun has always portrayed the 4th Age as speculatory for the people of the 21st century. We just don't have any lost floating mountains, planet smashing invasions, flaming seas, or teleporting cities in about 4000 BC. We have the Old Kingdom of Egypt and Sumeria. It's just not... not Earthdawn at all. Earthdawn has no real place in Shadowrun. The stuff that happened in it could not have happened. We could have had immortal elves from a past age of magic. But they would have had to have been people like Enkidu, not people like Sorcerer God Queen Aina. -Frank |
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Dec 5 2007, 10:16 PM
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#63
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Enkidu would be more like an immortal Obsidiman. Except clearly not immortal...
But yes, you make good points. |
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Dec 5 2007, 10:18 PM
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#64
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 858 Joined: 25-August 03 From: Braunschweig, North German League, Allied German States Member No.: 5,537 |
Well, there is GURPS Cthulhupunk... |
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Dec 5 2007, 10:20 PM
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#65
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..and there is CthulhuTech...
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Dec 5 2007, 10:24 PM
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#66
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The ShadowComedian Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 |
as mentioned a few posts farther up there *points*
but that's more like NGE the RPG than anything else, if i read that correctly <.< |
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Dec 5 2007, 10:38 PM
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#67
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sure, just based on another legend than NGE.
Which means that most likely we won't have a dragon running for president, either. Of course, 4000 BC is around the time of biblical Eden, so there was some pretty weird stuff going on... according to legend. |
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Dec 6 2007, 03:36 AM
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#68
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Cybernetic Blood Mage Group: Members Posts: 3,472 Joined: 11-March 06 From: Northeastern Wyoming Member No.: 8,361 |
Eh? I don't follow why Big D wouldn't have run for prez without Earthdawn (I think it is rather silly for him to have actually won, but that is another debate.), but FrankTrollman brings up some really damning points, WHERE is the evidence of the Fourth World? Legend of High Fantasy just isn't enough on its own.
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Dec 6 2007, 03:38 AM
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#69
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
Something that occurred to me today at work is that there's really no reason for magic in SR and ED to be that similar. I know, we're gamers and we tend to think of magic as a hard science, but one of the cornerstones of SR is that belief influences reality and that certain magical traditions work because people believe they work.
Magic in SR should be totally different, because the world is totally different. There might be a handful of IE's and Great Dragons running around saying, "No, magic should work like this," and while that may work for them, the 6th World is making up its own laws. I suppose a certain number of SR games will deal with the published metaplot, a certain number with a metaplot of the GM's own devising, and a certain number with no real metaplot to speak of (beyond "Who are we blowing up this week?"). Of those three, only the first ties into ED and that tie is, at best, optional. I've always treated SR and ED as separate games. Not intentionally, but my understanding of the SR world was formed before ED existed, and it just never got added in. |
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Dec 6 2007, 04:05 AM
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#70
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...the schedule for Tungsten Rod production has now gone to 24/7. Pele's Wrath on Standby mode...:grinbig: |
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Dec 6 2007, 04:10 AM
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#71
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Man, ED ruins everything.
Sorry, had to be done. |
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Dec 6 2007, 04:24 AM
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#72
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...I so disbelieve in magic, I so disbelieve in magic, I so disbelieve in magic... *Zap!* Hell and tarnation! That Manabolt still hurts... :grinbig: @CBB, I'm totally with you there. |
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Dec 6 2007, 04:28 AM
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#73
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't think that's a cornerstone at all. it's a theory that only really began to show circumstantial rules support in Dot6W, and gained a bit more circumstantial support in SOTA:64. it's more accurate to say that belief's influence or lack of influence on magic in SR is a point of hot debate, both in-game and, to some extent, out of game. |
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Dec 6 2007, 05:41 AM
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#74
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246 |
One of the little tie-ins, purposeful I'm certain, is in Street Magic. The "new" metamagic technique of Filtering (Street Magic page 61). When I read this, it actually made one of the things which really threw me about ED magic make some sense finally. About 10 years too late. :wobble:
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Dec 6 2007, 06:08 AM
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#75
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 7,116 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,449 |
You could completely ditch the ED stuff and not lose a thing. If anything, it feels forced and contrived to me, and has gaping logic holes, which SR has enough of already. The whole ED thing was from when they owned both games, and thought it would be cute to put in some oblique hints that ED was one of the previous ages of magic. It's still canonical, but like others have said, it's more like Easter Eggs than anything else. It has little or no actual relevance to the SR setting.
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Dec 6 2007, 10:40 AM
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#76
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
It's been implicit in the system since long before that. SR has always had crazy people developing weird, inexplicable powers, borne largely out of their own demented faith. Its never been my favorite aspect of the SR universe, but been there for a long time. But my larger point is that by us gamers, Magic is treated like a hard science, because we're gamers and there's a lot of numbers involved and by-and-large you know what you can and can't do. We look in the rulebook and we find out exactly how things work, getting a specific GM ruling if we need it. As players, we don't have to deal with ambiguity. In game, its pretty much all ambiguity. |
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Dec 6 2007, 01:21 PM
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#77
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,245 Joined: 27-April 07 From: Running the streets of Southeast Virginia Member No.: 11,548 |
That's a simple answer... belief defines the magic. If you believe that magic works a certain way, then it does. When the collective belief establishes a certain form, then that form is used and others fall to the wayside due to lack of teachers, interest, etc. Mages is the 4th world used magic differently. Mages in the 6th use it differently too. Each world had their main version of magic. The other versions were probably there, but just no in great use / visibility. Think magical traditions and much of the commentary about Psionics... |
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Dec 6 2007, 02:19 PM
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#78
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,838 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,669 |
I agree that the only way to make ED fit is to assume that some Parlainth-style effect has removed most everything from the 4th World from existence, and that's just too much for me to buy into. Sure, you can imagine why it was done - to keep the neophyte magicians from using magic too early - but I still think it's crap.
I don't mind dragons, but I run them a bit less "metahuman-y" and a bit more alien. As for IEs - I don't really like too much about them and run them as powerful Free Spirits that have Inhabited the bodies of elves since the final days of the 4th World. Like dragons, they too are less "metahuman-y" in my game. |
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Dec 6 2007, 03:51 PM
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#79
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...If only believing that it doesn't work would give you immunity to magic, that would be so choice. ...ow, that still hurts! Stop tossing those manabolts at me... :grinbig: |
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Dec 6 2007, 04:31 PM
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#80
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 6,748 Joined: 5-July 02 Member No.: 2,935 |
You know Filtering was carried over from SR3, right? |
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Dec 6 2007, 07:02 PM
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#81
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
You can get 4 dice for the Magic Resistance quality, but you have to pay for it like everybody else. (Belief can influence reality, but its a game and it still costs points.) @HappyDaze: I have a similar problem with the IE's and Great Dragons, in that their intelligence seems far too human for my taste. If something is really that smart, it should be somewhat unknowable to us mere mortals; instead of coming off as really smart people, they should be different. (There's a bit of a built in limitation there, in that an npc can only be as smart as the GM or the writer, plus or minus whatever cheating can get you, but I feel it still falls short of capturing an ancient, immortal being.) @et al: When I first read the Tir Tairngire book, I really liked it. As a sourcebook it was okay, but as a window into suspicion and paranoia of the IE conspiracy, I thought it was fantastic. I got creeped out reading it. It alluded to a lot of stuff, but it never came right out and said anything definitively. That's a much more effective was to produce dread, because nothing you write can really top the reader's imagination of the unknown. Going back and finding out exactly what happened makes the Tir book a great deal less effective in that regard. (This is my problem with the Call of Cthulhu games as well, which tend to take the mind-numbingly terrifying creatures of which the mortal mind cannot conceive and make them 32 HD monsters, with pictures.) As to the original poll, I have to object to the phrase "generic or homebrew fantasy world", simply because I don't think there is a need to define anything about the 4th world beyond saying it was history, with an unknown number of myths and legends actually being possible, partially true. Jesus could have been a magician (as in Spike Baby Messiah, which if nothing else might make a good band name), and Thor might have been a Force 20 Free Spirit. Or they might have been space aliens. Or they might be tarted up versions of relatively mundane people. My point being, I don't have to stat out prehistory for an SR game. |
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Dec 6 2007, 07:38 PM
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#82
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...in my book suspense is up there with intrigue and the two go hand in hand very well together. It is how I was able to freak out the team's decker in my campaign to where he had the character jack & run before actually meeting up with any of the really bad IC I had waiting. From this aspect I agree the TT sorucebook was successful. As the central setting for a campaign I feel it fell short as the government and authorities came off having to much of a jackboot mentality. A runner gets caught, and if not deposited on the north bank of the Columbia without her memories of the last couple three days, she is the prey for the next hunt. Not very conducive for PC growth. I ended my Portland campaign after about a month RL time (weekly sessions) when I came to the conclusion the runners really couldn't get away with a quarter of the things they did before the book came out. Back on the suspense angle, yes the fluff was scary (the TT government was an influence for my design of the Serbian dictatorship in my RiS campaign). In subsequent scenarios I ran, the PCs would have preferred breaking into a high security Ares compound for less pay than take a job involving the TT. |
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Dec 6 2007, 10:20 PM
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#83
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
but it's not implicit. it's hinted at, yes, but the question of whether those crazies actually invented new forms of magic through their own beliefs, or if they just happened on some hidden, previously-unknown aspect that was already there--that question has always been left open. |
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Dec 7 2007, 03:37 AM
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#84
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
A relevant quote from Harlequin's Back. p. 19: "Yes, this does mean that a character's world view shapes how magic works for him in the Shadowrun universe."
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Dec 7 2007, 08:43 AM
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#85
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
blargh. one more reason to hate that stupid run. regardless, shaping the way magic works for a given caster isn't quite the same thing as allowing the caster to fabricate new abilities.
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Dec 7 2007, 11:57 AM
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#86
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,326 Joined: 15-April 02 Member No.: 2,600 |
I was using "implicit" as "suggested or to be understood though not plainly expressed; implied: distinguished from EXPLICIT." So as not to turn it into a semantic argument about the other definitions of implicit (such as, "an absolute or unconditional understanding"); it is implied within the system that belief influences reality, although never explicitly stated. (Except apparently in Harlequin's Back, which I'll admit I've never read. I've never been particularly impressed with SR modules for a variety of reasons we don't have to get into here.) Belief just doesn't mean you want to believe it (or every sam would have unbeatable magic resistance), you have to believe it deep within your lizard brain. You have to believe it the way a schizophrenic believes in the voices he hears, you have to believe it in a way that is almost impossible for a rational person to achieve, because any doubt no matter how buried or subconscious will betray you. That's why only batshit crazy people get to break the rules. I'm not saying its one of my favorite aspects of the game, but its how I justify it. |
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Dec 7 2007, 02:29 PM
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#87
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 697 Joined: 18-August 07 Member No.: 12,735 |
Many of us did exactly that. Even more of us took the tact of ignoring Earth Dawn completely. *gah* it was a horrible 3 weeks in which we played ED. Afterwards we all did a collective WTF and went back to Shadowrun. Who cares about ED... that's what Viagra is for. |
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Dec 7 2007, 02:45 PM
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#88
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
This is actually what I've been holding onto for several years as an "exit plan" for IEs. If I absolutely have to pull a plug and prove to all the players that IEs don't exist without breaking everything else apart and making a mockery of the fact that they all did Harlequin and Harlequin's back, I figure I can just say it was all the schizophrenic delusions of one elf imprinting themselves on reality. Evidence of other IEs was just planted there by Harlequin's subconscious mind to support his mental illness. It's a long way to go, but I like it TONS better than having carryovers from ED. |
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Dec 7 2007, 02:58 PM
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#89
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
..and then you can mock these pesky players thinking they played Shadowrun by porting over the campaign to Mage: The Ascenion/The Awakening. :S
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Dec 7 2007, 04:57 PM
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#90
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
Hey, beats porting Earthdawn to Shadowrun rules. But I think a fair middle ground is to play sort of a cyberpunk type game with a gritty take on the effects of metahumans and magic on a dystopian future... Wait a minute, that's what Shadowrun is, unless you think Earthdawn is intrinsic to it. But nobody I know thinks that. Not one player in any of my groups, ever, or anyone that I've ever talked to about Shadowrun (outside DS, of course), has ever expressed any love for Earthdawn tie-ins. I've sadly only played ED once, and it looks like a neat system, and I'd like to play it again sometime; I think we all agree that's not really the point. The point is that the ED tie-ins have been botched at every step of the way, and make almost everyone want to puke. If wanting to puke was essential to play Shadowrun, my players would probably beg me to run Mage instead. But apparently, I've managed to run Shadowrun since 2nd ed. without saturating it with ED, and nobody's felt mocked yet. Go figure. |
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Dec 7 2007, 05:04 PM
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#91
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
i don't think they've been botched every step of the way. for instance, i think the relationship between Earthdawn events and modern Tir (both of them) politics is kinda interesting. what i don't like is stuff like Harlequin's Back--when the fantasy milieu takes over and turns everything into an epic battle against blah blah blah.
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Dec 7 2007, 05:55 PM
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#92
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
Sounds like a generic system to me. |
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Dec 7 2007, 06:17 PM
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#93
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 830 Joined: 3-April 04 From: Columbus, Ohio Member No.: 6,215 |
So Shadowrun started as a generic system?
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Dec 7 2007, 06:37 PM
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#94
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Bushido Cowgirl Group: Members Posts: 5,782 Joined: 8-July 05 From: On the Double K Ranch a half day's ride out of Phlogiston Flats Member No.: 7,490 |
...that could qualify the Short One (#68) to have resistance :grinbig: |
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Dec 7 2007, 06:42 PM
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#95
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 458 Joined: 28-March 05 From: NA/UCAS/IN/ Member No.: 7,246 |
Ummm, well, actually, that hadn't occurred to me. For some inexplicable reason, the Filtering/Spell Matrix idea hadn't crystallized right in my head until Street Magic. The wonders of figuring out how my brain works, or doesn't. |
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Dec 7 2007, 07:46 PM
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#96
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 609 Joined: 13-August 07 Member No.: 12,615 |
Do the Awakened simply discover aspects of magic which already exist, or do they create something new? Or is it a combination of both? It's a fine line. My interpretation has always been that mana/magic is different from, say, gravity or electricity. Both of those function with rules and parameters independent of human willpower and belief. Mana (and by extension, magic) is different; it's rules and effects can change, and sometimes be completely altered, by human will and emotion.
From my backseat view, it seems that the creators of Shadowrun were trying combine the high fantasy and cyberpunk genres. I think they did a decent job. But I can understand the view of many who think that in trying to do this, both genres were diluted. I've played both the high fantasy games (AD&D, etc.) as well as the pure cyberpunk ones (Cyberpunk, by RTG). Shadowrun strikes me as having acheived a healthy equilibrium between the two, and I enjoy it far more than the "pure" rpgs. |
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Dec 7 2007, 10:17 PM
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#97
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 249 Joined: 2-November 06 From: Bozeman, MT Member No.: 9,762 |
I think in game mechanics we can accurately measure the strength with which people hold on to their beliefs about how magic works (or doesn't) via there willpower score. Thus any sammy with a firm unshakable belief that magic doesn't exist, would have night unbeatable magic resistance with is willpower score in the low twenties. (my interpretation of lizard brain belief level). However most mortals are confronted quite often with the fact that magic doesn't work the way they think it does. This happens whenever anyone with a different paradigm uses magic (cause they do so in a different way; imagine a hermetic observing a shaman creating a formula: "But where are the equations??? you can't cast magic without equations.") I propose that characters with high willpower are better able to handle drain because they have a greater, more unshakable confidence that they are doing things "the right way." Thinking that you might be doing things the wrong way, causes one to have less precise control over the mana, hence greater drain. Just my ideas about how this works within the framework the game has already provided. |
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Dec 8 2007, 12:36 AM
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#98
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
the problem with that interpretation is that there are plenty of magical effects that are not resisted with Will.
yes, that's what i'm arguing with--i don't believe that magic in SR is necessarily based on belief. belief can shape how a given mage interacts with magic, yes, but that doesn't necessarily mean that things will come true if you believe them hard enough. that might be true, but it also might not be. the question of whether or not belief creates magic, or just shapes it, is one that is left open. the example that comes to mind is the Dragon totem, as presented in Dot6W (or maybe it was YotC). the head of that Dunkelzahn cult went from not being a magician to being a shaman of the Dragon totem--a totem nobody'd seen before. it's implied that he might have created the Dragon totem simply by believing in it hard enough--but it's also suggested that maybe the Dragon totem existed all along, and he just discovered it. basically, you're saying that it's understood--but unsaid--that magic is based on belief, in SR. i disagree; i think the game presents that as one possibility, but that it's only a possibility. i don't think there's any behind-the-scenes silent understanding that this is how magic works. |
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Dec 8 2007, 07:19 AM
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#99
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Hoppelhäschen 5000 Group: Members Posts: 5,807 Joined: 3-January 04 Member No.: 5,951 |
The real problems with that belief-theory start when you consider how it explains a trapped totem escaping and spontaneous magic/spirit manifestations - it completly waters down to some 'collective will' thing that sounds reasonable, yet explains nothing.
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Dec 8 2007, 07:52 AM
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#100
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 861 Joined: 27-November 07 Member No.: 14,397 |
Earthdawn?
My first reaction to be honest. I enjoy shadowrun but am seriously lacking in the 'history of the shadowrun world' knowladge skill. Since this is the case, it can hardly be said that earthdawn is what makes shadowrun shadowrun. I'm guessing it is something with magic coming in cycles and such and thus we are in the 'sixth world' but I know nothing of the elf proficy thing, and I've got to agree with some of the others that I read, the proficy and the exact fact of which 'age of magic' we are in what -exact- way magic came into the world seems fairly errelevent to the average runner. Could have as easily been that magic just poped up one day, or was sealed by some ancient ritual that was broken by mining or anything else really. That simple fact wouldn't make huge changes to what makes shadowrun what it is. Sure, another game can be very similar, cyberpunk with corps and working on the wrong side of the law etc, but it isn't shadowrun, but I don't think Earthdawn is that defining difference. |
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