 Stealth As An Open Test, More luck than skill? |
 Aug 19 2003, 11:10 PM
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#1
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Moving Target  Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 29-July 03 Member No.: 5,137  |
We have been encountering some difficulties in our group with Stealth be handled as an open test, such as it being not uncommon for a character with a skill of 3 to randomly roll something like a 16, while a character with a skill of six gets a bit unlucky and rolls nothing higher than a 5. It seems that the open test far too easily allows for a low skill to end up with an insane stealth score that will rarely be seen. Has anyone else tried using different stealth systems, and if so what are they?
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Aug 19 2003, 11:21 PM
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#2
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 403 Joined: 27-August 02 From: Scotland Member No.: 3,175 |
Yep, we now just roll Stealth against a base TN of 4, every success adds +1 to the TN of the perception test to see you. So before other modifiers it's 4 + sucesses on the Stealth test. I find it works pretty well, or at least better than the open test. With our system you need a pretty massive skill, and good tactics/gear, to get a really high TN for other people to spot you.
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Aug 20 2003, 02:00 AM
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#3
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Actually, with the exception of the lower skill levels, a lot of stealth in my experience tends to in fact be luck (shadows in the right places, no sticks that you didn't see, etc.) as much as actual flat-out skill. Not to mention that against people with decent Intelligences, they're as likely to randomly roll a huge number as the people with high skill levels. There are a few freak accidents, but now and then someone will just randomly keep looking the wrong way.
~J |
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Aug 20 2003, 04:42 AM
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#4
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 174 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 1,478 |
the real-life aspects of luck and stealth are debatable. however, the game mechanic does present a problem, from my perspecitve, in that--as others have mentioned--it's so damn random. granted, we're talking about rolling dice, here, but there are limits; it irks me that a runner has to get lucky every time he rolls, whereas the opposition only has to get lucky once or twice. there is some balance in the fact that a single success on the part of the oppo doesn't mean automatic failure for the runner, but the stealth rules are still a lot more random than any other aspect of the game. in almost every other mechanic, a skill of 5-6 will get the job done fairly reliably; with stealth, i honestly don't start feeling comfortable with a roll until i've got at least 8 dice, preferably more like the 13 i roll for my main char. and even then, one sec guard can just roll a damn 33 out of the blue, and your whole day gets ruined. i should know, it just happened to me.
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Aug 20 2003, 06:19 AM
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#5
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 588 Joined: 26-February 02 Member No.: 227 |
As a GM, I tend to view a failed stelath roll in an intrusion as blocked progress. Unless they rolled REALY badly, I figure the person doing the sneaking knows they are likely to be spotted if they keep going the way they were, but isn't automatically detected. How they act at that point then determines what happens beyond there, and they may well get another shot at rolling a stelath test. Instalations with lax security will allow more "second chances" than ones with tight security, of course...
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Aug 20 2003, 07:09 AM
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#6
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754 |
Enter: Karma Pool. Yes there are some random flukes, but as mentioned thats the way stealth goes. What are the odds that the veteran runner with stealth 6 still has that crappy number after a point of karma? Whereas the skill 3 guy, not even "trained" according to the SR3 descriptions, does indeed have it streaky. Such is life, use karma wisely and move on.
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Aug 20 2003, 09:23 AM
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#7
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 224 Joined: 6-April 02 From: ab.ca Member No.: 2,522 |
I haven't found it too much trouble. First, the higher skill characters will higher on average than the lower skill. Not always, but that's just the way it goes. Anything can happen in shadowrun. Second, the stealth roll is only the base test. Perception modifiers (for lighting, distance, etc. and usually +2 distracted in most cases) are added on top of that. And then, the opposing guards etc. have to make multiple perception successes to actually find the characters. One success just raises suspicion. It takes consistent botchery (or at least sequential) to get busted.
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Aug 20 2003, 12:33 PM
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#8
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 120 Joined: 26-February 02 From: UK Member No.: 1,873 |
I run it as an opposed roll in my games.
The Sneak rolls his Stealth against the target's Perception. The Target rolls his perception against the Sneak's Stealth Skill. I add modifiers to each party, things like cover, squeaky floorboards and suspicion all play a role. Normally, if the Target has no reason to expect a Sneak, they get an automatic +2 on their target number. :) |
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Aug 20 2003, 03:01 PM
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#9
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
That's how I run Stealth, except for the last modifier. :) |
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Aug 20 2003, 03:24 PM
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#10
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Shooting Target Group: Members Posts: 1,512 Joined: 16-August 03 From: Northampton Member No.: 5,499 |
Unforuntely karma on open test's isn't used that way. On open test's 1 karma spent gives an extra dice not a reroll. So even karma doesn't help with the stealth problem (taking the canon ruls at least). For me i allow karma to reroll ALL (and it must be all) the dice in an open test if the player wants. So thay rolled an 8 and they think it's not enough? 1 point of karma and they reroll all of the dice including the 8. Though i have considered doing stealth like fortune. Fortune a Question. If there is say 3 guards at a station do you make three test's or take the highest intelligence and add two for the other 2 guards to get the target number for the sneak? |
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Aug 20 2003, 03:35 PM
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#11
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 120 Joined: 26-February 02 From: UK Member No.: 1,873 |
Yeah... I had to think about that, but given that Perception is essentially Intelligence, and not everyone has a stealth skill of 6, it makes it really hard for Sneaky Joe (Stealth 4) to creep up on the Incredible Nerd (intelligence 6) So I try and level the playing fields.....basically, if the INcredible Nerd had heard a noise in his lab, then Sneaky Joe would probably be spotted. If however, the Incredible Nerd was actually busy doing his evil-bad-guy laugh as he mixed chemicals over a gas burner, then Sneaky Joe would have better odds. (In that case I would apply a +2 modifier to the INcredible Nerd for being otherwise absorbed, and maybe even a further +1 because of the noise of his insane cackling. end result.......Sneaky Joe rolls 4 dice against TN 6, and the Incredible Nerd rolls 6 dice against TN 4(Sneaky Joe's skill), +2, +1 = 7. A little more even, and in my mind at least, a little more realistic. :D Of course, if the Incredible Nerd had a multitude of squeaky toys on the floor, a vast selection of bubble-bath solutions smeared everywhere, then Sneaky Joe would probably catch some freshly mixed chemicals thrown his way. :D |
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Aug 20 2003, 03:44 PM
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#12
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
A guard who rolls a 33 deserves to see you. Heck, that guard deserves a promotion and a nice big steak, too. The odds of doing this on one die are 1 in 15,552. The odds on 3 dice are therefore about 1 in 5184. I played an entire campaign with a rule of thirty- if any die rerolled all the way up to a thirty, something massively good would happen. It never happened in the entire campaign. The odds of a single sec guard rolling 33 out of the blue aren't much better than any other ridiculously improbable occurence in an alternate stealth system. |
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Aug 20 2003, 04:00 PM
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#13
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
One Stealth roll for the sneaking character, and a Perception roll for each guard (or other appropriate possible observer). |
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Aug 20 2003, 04:04 PM
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#14
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I can understand that. I normally tend to apply whatever modifiers seem appropriate at the time, rather than making a blanket rule. :) |
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Aug 21 2003, 01:49 AM
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#15
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 614 Joined: 17-June 03 From: A safehouse about to be compromised by ninjas Member No.: 4,754 |
Hm, Ill reread the Karma rules, maybe I missed that.
But Daishi brings up a good point about TN mods .... with camo, ruthenium, traceless walk, and setting (lighting or cover etc) the stealth roll alone isnt the entire story. Even someone with a 4, when concealed by a force 4 spirit and using camo, is at TN12 to spot. |
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Aug 21 2003, 02:33 AM
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#16
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 376 Joined: 14-July 03 Member No.: 4,928 |
We have a similar house rule, called a Kennedy (named for the infamous bullet that did so much damage) - anyone who rolls a 30 or over succeeds spectacularly, and gets that skill rolled for automatically raised by one, or a free edge (GM's choice) depending on what they were rolling. As a player, I've rolled a Kennedy twice, and once (much to players chagrin) as a Gm. I was rolling for a Hvy machine gun opening up on the Rigger's Van containing all the player characters; ending up with a highes roll of 47. All the players thought they were going to have to write up new characters, but since I was actually aiming for a tire, I decided the shot blew off the entire front end of the vehicle, and the Rigger suffer deadly stun for dump shock. |
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Aug 21 2003, 02:10 PM
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#17
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
Despite the odds, I've seen this happen way too much to implement this rule. In one game session alone, one of my players rolled over 30 4 times (one resulted in a 97!), while I did the same thing twice. |
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Aug 21 2003, 02:56 PM
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#18
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 214 Joined: 8-June 03 Member No.: 4,696 |
This is when you go out and buy some dice that aren't loaded... |
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Aug 21 2003, 03:10 PM
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#19
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Immoral Elf Group: Members Posts: 15,247 Joined: 29-March 02 From: Grimy Pete's Bar & Laundromat Member No.: 2,486 |
I made the player in question use different dice (my spares) after the second time. Trust me when I say that they weren't loaded. :) |
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