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[Chance359]

Just caught the trailer for Wanted, and figured that it would something that adepts would like.

Wanted Trailers

by spending a simple action, the adept is able to use a limited form of telekineses to make a bullet curve around an object and strike a stationary target thereby reducing the penalty for visibilty and blind fire.


Either that or its and advanced form of missile mastery with a geasa of must come out of a pistol.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

I don't see how it would affect visibility or blind fire penalties, exactly. Cover penalties, yes, but you still have to know where they are.

And I think it would be more akin to the spell "deflection," just modified.

[Heath Robinson]

I have a suggestion for a new Adept Power; an enhancement to Small-Arms inteception techniques. I call it "Shoot the bullet".

[WeaverMount]

I have to say that I'm big on keeping adepts as using magic self control. Magicians are outward focused, adepts are inward focused.

[Larme]

Gun adepts can already crank it up to "can't miss" by having upwards of 24 dice. Please don't give them any more. That would just take them from "can't miss after I pump up all my pools really high," to "can't miss right out of chargen yawn killing is really easy." This movie looks sweet, but it's only appropriate in a world that doesn't already have magic and cyber. In Shadowrun, the best I would use it for is as a flavor description for how a character's "enhance aim" spell works.

[CircuitBoyBlue]

Also, the old Tir Na Nog SB had a "Morph-seeking rifle" in it. I imagine that it does pretty much what you're describing. But at the time, SR used the "Thou Shalt Not" hammer on it, and relegated it to NPCs who want to kill you.

[Adarael]

This is obviously just a use of Centering to bypass penalties.

[WeaverMount]

Gun adepts can already crank it up to "can't miss" by having upwards of 24 dice. Please don't give them any more. That would just take them from "can't miss after I pump up all my pools really high," to "can't miss right out of chargen yawn killing is really easy." This movie looks sweet, but it's only appropriate in a world that doesn't already have magic and cyber. In Shadowrun, the best I would use it for is as a flavor description for how a character's "enhance aim" spell works.

... got me thinking about a more cyber-punk version. What about a mortar/gyrojet weapon with a crazy complex fire control system that could pre-program a flight path into the rocket as it left the barrel. The turning radius would still be pretty large, but even pulling a U-turn over 3 city blocks to hit a target from an angle you aren't at would be crazy useful.

[Larme]

That could be doable. It wouldn't so much be a gun as a micro drone launcher, the drones are basically bullets with a brain and a self propulsion system, probably packed with explosives. Would be VERY expensive to fire...

[Adarael]

See the Tom Selleck movie "Runaway" - a hitman uses a gyroget gun to do just that.

I mean, you don't HAVE to see it. It's not very good. But it does feature that kind of gun.

[Fortune]

Not just any old hitman, but Gene Simmons himself! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[WeaverMount]

That could be doable. It wouldn't so much be a gun as a micro drone launcher, the drones are basically bullets with a brain and a self propulsion system, probably packed with explosives. Would be VERY expensive to fire...

Yes ordinance with a sensors and response rating to identify and home in on a target in real time would be exorbitant. What I was thinking (because it cool, else of an insta-win and takes a team) is that the launcher would calculate the flight path. It would then calculate how to animate the jacket/fin and pass the program to the rocket. This would require a lot of tactical data available, to make it work. The rockets would only need micro processors to exequte the program. I don't know how fast rockets go compared to bullets, but my understanding is that rockets are slower by and large. If the target is 500 meters away and your rocket can make 8 corrections a second, that's still easy 3 or 4 corrections at a descent range. Odds are such a system could hit targets at out crazy ranges.

The largest issue I can think of is the fact that I can't think of what to make the fins out of. Any ideas, even crazy SR tech?

[Fuchs]

Easier to simply have a flying drone shoot from another angle.

[Aaron]

Don't all adept powers affect only themselves? I thought that was the point of an adept.

[Kingmaker]

It's already been said, but this power isn't really appropriate for adepts. Adept magic is internal.

[hobgoblin]

indeed, i guess thats why missile mastery only work for thrown items only, its something that adepts affect directly with their body.

on that note, have bullseye ever used guns? if not he is the prime example for a ranged attack focused adept.

[WeaverMount]

Easier to simply have a flying drone shoot from another angle.

SSSsSSSHHhHhhHhHhhhh.....

Micro Homing rockets with tac data are so totally awesome they have to be practical. srly

... I'll drop it *sigh*

[Zen Shooter01]

The suggested power is too cinematic for me. But here's a good question - why would you want Curve The Bullet, when you could just take Enhanced Ability, making you more likely to hit under all conditions, instead of just vs. cover modifiers?

[hobgoblin]

btw, cover? what cover? *pulls out a ares thunderstruck gauss rifle*

[Method]

I think I'd rather chew on glass than see this movie...

[Fortune]

Don't all adept powers affect only themselves? I thought that was the point of an adept.

All except for the totally inane Distance Strike.

[Nigel]

It does seem a bit derivative of Jumper, which had an excellent concept (at least superficially) but terrible execution. I hope it's good.

If this was more self-affecting, I'd love it for an Adept power. Maybe some sort of gun, as others have suggested? It'd be expensive to be sure, but so awesome...

[hobgoblin]

All except for the totally inane Distance Strike.

isnt the a real life "martial art" that claims a similar ability?

[Fortune]

What? Throw a punch across 6+ meters of empty space (without actually ever touching your opponent)? Really? Which Martial Art teaches that?

[hobgoblin]

What? Throw a punch across 6+ meters of empty space (without actually ever touching your opponent)? Really? Which Martial Art teaches that?

hell if i recall the name, but i bumped into it on some show that was investigating claims of paranormal abilities.

the master and apprentice was located in different buildings, hooked up to eeg and similar. the master would then perform a attack, and the apprentice would react as if hit by said attack.

[BookWyrm]

I'm sorry, but this type of adept power just screams overbalance to me. If you're the shooter, you're better off using a gyroc like Gene Simmons used in the film Runaway.
But the person (in this case, Angelina Jolie's character) just may be using an adept power to deflect, or at least bend the firing-line of the bullet just enough so that she doesn't get hit.

My impression of the scene is; the shooter literally whips the weapon from behind himself, supposedly adding the momentum of the drawing arc to the bullet in order to make the projectile go around any & all interveining solids (the aformentioned Ms. Jolie & the slab of meat behind her) to hit the target.

Oh smegging smeggity smegger smeg NO. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)

I'm waiting for the MythBusters Special on this one.

[hobgoblin]

from what i understand the movie is based on some dc comics creation or other...

[Aaron]

All except for the totally inane Distance Strike.

True, but the strike in question still originates from the adept.

And Distance Strike is more useful than you might imagine. For one thing, it removes the Unarmed (or weapon skill or Dodge) from the defender's dice pool, which makes its usefulness increase proportionally with the target's melee skill.

[Kyoto Kid]

... got me thinking about a more cyber-punk version. What about a mortar/gyrojet weapon with a crazy complex fire control system that could pre-program a flight path into the rocket as it left the barrel. The turning radius would still be pretty large, but even pulling a U-turn over 3 city blocks to hit a target from an angle you aren't at would be crazy useful.

..already used this. Experimental KA-9X sniper system featured in my RiS campaign.

[Fortune]

True, but the strike in question still originates from the adept.

In a similar manner to Spells. That is not necessarily the definition of internalized magic though.

And Distance Strike is more useful than you might imagine. For one thing, it removes the Unarmed (or weapon skill or Dodge) from the defender's dice pool, which makes its usefulness increase proportionally with the target's melee skill.

I wasn't in any way arguing uselessness. If anything, Distance Strike is too useful, crossing the border of brokenness. It isn't the fault of SR4 though, as the Power has always been broken in every edition.

[Aaron]

In a similar manner to Spells. That is not necessarily the definition of internalized magic though.

I disagree. The punch still originates from the adept. The adept has to swing; the power is (at least by my reading) generated by the adept, not from mana. The target does not get any benefit from astral barriers or background counts.

[martindv]

This is a horrible idea, and you should be ashamed of yourself.

It does seem a bit derivative of Jumper, which had an excellent concept (at least superficially) but terrible execution. I hope it's good.

I just knew this would be about that stupid-ass trailer.


Wanted is loosely based on an Image/Top Cow (so, basically totally owned by the creator) miniseries by Mark Millar and J.G. Jones. (link, since this stupid UI doesn't do a halfway decent job of distinguishing them from normal text)

How loosely you ask? Well... They share the same title and the two main characters' names. Apparently the first act reflects some of the more "grounded" parts of the comic, when Wesley is training with his newfound abilities. But after that, it goes way the Hell off the rails.

Because the comic is about a world where the comic book supervillains won, and rule the world. And Wesley's father, The Killer ("I am the scariest super-fuck that ever lived"), is just that--a combination of Bullseye, Deadshot, and Ultimate Hawkeye. He is a supervillain, and the How of what he does is irrelevant. The movie is some bullshit nonsense about assassins working for capital "F" Fate. And that is a shame, because I want to see Morgan Freeman get shot in the throat with his own bullet Wesley deflects back at him with a knife.


See, the other thing is that even in the comic and the comics its based on, basic physics doesn't change. Bullets still fly in straight lines. The shooters are just scary fucking accurate.

[Malicant]

from what i understand the movie is based on some dc comics creation or other...

It is based on the comic Wanted. And that's more or less where the similarities end. Shame, the movie will suck big time compared to the comic.

[hobgoblin]

as they, more often then not, do these days...

[Larme]

I hear that Iron man is totally true to the comic while still being awesome for everyone else!

And V for Vendetta was a brilliant interpretation of a fairly dated sci fi comic.

[hobgoblin]

note the more often then not...

still, iron man is in a way a new breed of comic book based movie. from what i understand marvel studios (their movie and cartoon part) was directly responsible for production of it, and the upcoming hulk movie.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvel_Studios

[CircuitBoyBlue]

And V for Vendetta was a brilliant interpretation of a fairly dated sci fi comic.

Agreed. I'm a huge Alan Moore fan, but I didn't dig the book. The movie, however, literally took my breath away. The group I went to see it with thought that this crazy person I was dating at the time and I were up to hi-jinks in the theater, because 10 minutes after the movie ended and everybody cleared out, we were still in the theater. But in truth, we were both just damn near catatonic, because a couple scenes in particular just blew us away. Even though we'd seen them in comic book form, the book just didn't have the "punch" of the movie.

[Fortune]

I disagree. The punch still originates from the adept. The adept has to swing; the power is (at least by my reading) generated by the adept, not from mana.

So, just what enables the force of the attack to cross the intervening distance, which could be more than 6 meters if Magic is not involved? If Magic is involved, then that Magic is operating outside of the Adept himself.

[WeaverMount]

So, just what enables the force of the attack to cross the intervening distance, which could be more than 6 meters if Magic is not involved? If Magic is involved, then that Magic is operating outside of the Adept himself.

If you take a very literal and reductionist view of distance strike, yes, it is absolutely a magical effect outside of the adept's body. In light of the tiny distance involved versus spell casting, it could also easy see this as extending the adept's aura.

The more damning powers are commanding voice and enthralling performance (I might have the names wrong). I don't really see how these could be anything but mind magic.

[Larme]

My interpretation would be that the Adept generates the kinetic force of the punch, and the magic then transmits it at a distance. The magic isn't hitting someone, the magic is rather allowing kinetic energy to travel through thin air. It's like mana encapsulates and carries the force, rather than the force being magic itself.

Regardless, there was never a rule that magical powers couldn't leave the person. Otherwise spells would be impossible. You could think of distance strike as just a limited form of the "clout" spell, if you wanted to, even. The rule with magic is that projectiles cannot be enchanted. Your hands, and weapons in your hands, can be infused with mana when you hold them, but once they leave you, they lose any magical presence. Missile mastery does not enchant projectiles, it enchants you, enabling you to throw projectiles much better. There isn't some arbitrary "outside self" rule, the rule is merely that projectiles can't be enchanted.

[WeaverMount]

It's like mana encapsulates and carries the force, rather than the force being magic itself.

... is magic outside the adept

Regardless, there was never a rule that magical powers couldn't leave the person.

This is supposed to be the big difference between magicians and adepts. Obviously it's not a hard and fast rule, but I'm pretty sure it is explicitly a thematic guild line.

[Malicant]

Adepts shooting Ki out of their palms is old school martial arts movie stuff. No problem there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Fortune]

In light of the tiny distance involved versus spell casting, it could also easy see this as extending the adept's aura.

I dispute the idea that 1 meter/Magic is a 'tiny distance'.

Anyway, I wasn't intending to argue the merits (or lack thereof) of Distance Strike. I merely mentioned it in response to a post about the supposedly internalized magic of Adepts, which has indeed been a factor of Shadowrun's magic system across the editions.

[WeaverMount]

Well yes tiny is relative, but feel pretty justified in using it to compare several meters (6 + Grade max)to several kilometers LOS can afford(~=8km if you are 5 feet above sea level). And I was actually bring up the inward focus of adept magic, and offering a way to keep distance strike in line with that.

[Larme]

... is magic outside the adept

...which is what I said. There's no rule against magic going outside the adept. The only hard rule regarding projectiles has always been that you can't enchant them.

[Aaron]

So, just what enables the force of the attack to cross the intervening distance, which could be more than 6 meters if Magic is not involved? If Magic is involved, then that Magic is operating outside of the Adept himself.

Again, if that was the case, then the Distance Strike would mention something about being affected by astral barriers. Seems not to, though.

[Fortune]

There's no rule against magic going outside the adept. The only hard rule regarding projectiles has always been that you can't enchant them.

I don't believe anyone said there was a 'rule'. What has been said is that, since the very beginning, the main philosophy of the adept in Shadowrun has been an internalized use of magic, as opposed to a magician's outward bent. This has been stated overtly and explicitly over the editions, but unfortunately I cannot provide appropriate quotes from the older books at the moment.

As far as the relative distance argument ... I do not think 20+ feet is in any way a small or tiny or minute distance for a supposedly non-magical punch to cover.

It bothers me enough that Distance Strike doesn't exist in my games, and when I play an Adept in those games where it does, I refuse to take the Power for my characters.

[Larme]

I don't believe anyone said there was a 'rule'.

I was just pointing that out because everyone seemed to be beating up on a straw man, which apparently did not belong to anyone. Everyone was like "yuh huh it goes outside the adept," and I was just saying "...and?" It doesn't matter whether the magic goes outside the adept so I can't figure out why we're talking about it in the first place.

[Oracle]

hell if i recall the name, but i bumped into it on some show that was investigating claims of paranormal abilities.

the master and apprentice was located in different buildings, hooked up to eeg and similar. the master would then perform a attack, and the apprentice would react as if hit by said attack.

The name of the "martial art" is Kiai, and it is mentioned in the martial arts section of Arsenal. There are some freaky demonstrations of this "art" on YouTube (which is on the list of banned sites on my workplace, so i can't provide any links). My favourite demonstration is the one where the old Kiai master is foolish enough to let himself talk into a fight against a MMA fighter and is brutally destroyed. Another piece of mumbojumbo disproven.

As a sidenote: Before seing the entry in Arsenal and these videos, I always thought the kiai was the battlecry-style shout, employed in many japanese martial arts, which is used to increase muscle tensions to protect parts of the body and to up the force of an attack. A did not know that some people claim true "magical" powers to go along with this.

[Larme]

It's just more evidence that there's no such thing as an ultimate fighting style. If there was, everyone would learn it. Being a great fighter is about being strong, fast, tough, and skilled. Skilled in what doesn't matter, as long as it's effective. Bruce Li wasn't great because he knew any particular style, he was great because he was the strongest and the fastest and the toughest. That's why he ended up throwing all the styles out the window and designing his own.

[hobgoblin]

all of them are designed to counter a specific set of threats while providing some way to (counter)attack.

most developed because some high ups removed the peoples ability to arm themselves...

[CircuitBoyBlue]

Best argument for gun control ever: "By taking your guns away, we are enabling you to become Super Death Ninjas of Doom and Badassery"

[Critias]

Best argument for gun control ever: "By taking your guns away, we are enabling you to become Super Death Ninjas of Doom and Badassery"

Some of us practice with both. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[martindv]

I hear that Iron man is totally true to the comic while still being awesome for everyone else!

And V for Vendetta was a brilliant interpretation of a fairly dated sci fi comic.

Yes, Iron Man is.

As for V... Yeah... I'm gonna have to go and disagree with you on that. The Wachowskis took a great grahpic novel and gutted it like a fish. And not a professional gutting and cleaning like you get at a fish market. But a gutting you get from some drunken idiot who spent the day at the lake as an excuse to drink a case of piss water.

[Larme]

As for V... Yeah... I'm gonna have to go and disagree with you on that. The Wachowskis took a great grahpic novel and gutted it like a fish. And not a professional gutting and cleaning like you get at a fish market. But a gutting you get from some drunken idiot who spent the day at the lake as an excuse to drink a case of piss water.

Yes, of course your unsupported assertions about a movie beloved by an entire generation are going to go unchallenged. Good day, sir.

[Critias]

An entire generation, huh? Which one? Because I know plenty of people, of plenty of ages, that wouldn't use the word "beloved" anywhere near V for Vendetta.

[Stahlseele]

only good thing about that movie that i remember was the music . .
and yes, iron man is about 85 to 90% true to the comics . . and it more or less hints at those missing % too . .

[ornot]

The main problem with the V for Vendetta movie, is that they completely removed any capacity for the lead character (Evey) to grow in any way, thus obviating the need for V to recondition her as he did in the comic. She starts the film as a strong smart character, and ends the film similarly.

They also lost the whole Fate plotline, which dropped the human spirit vs soulless tech element of the whole story.

The setting in the comic was one of impoverished and brutal repression. In the film folk were generally affluent, and even the surveillance was toned down.

It was OK as a movie, but they let down a seminal work of fiction pandering to a modern desire for action sequences.

[Larme]

The main problem with the V for Vendetta movie, is that they completely removed any capacity for the lead character (Evey) to grow in any way, thus obviating the need for V to recondition her as he did in the comic. She starts the film as a strong smart character, and ends the film similarly.

Evey in the comic was one dimensional. Weak as a bunny rabbit -> Strong as an invincible assassin. And all it took was a little torture... Comic Evey was actually like a little girl, V read to her, and taught her about really basic facts of history, because the tyrannical regime had turned people like her into ignorant peasants who needed a Villian to pull them out of the dark ages. She was more like an actual person in the movie, more like you or me, which made her more relevant.

They also lost the whole Fate plotline, which dropped the human spirit vs soulless tech element of the whole story.

Fate was neat, but it was hopelessly dated. The movie would have lost all believability and turned most people off if it turned out that V overthrew the government by hacking just one single computer system that the government was stupid enough to rely on. That would have divorced it from modern cultural relevance, which is what makes the movie good in the first place.

The worst part about the comic is how Moore treated mental illness. The comic relied on the idea that you can not only induce psychosis in someone, it can be the exact right kind of psychosis that you want, and have the exact crippling effect you want it to have. Somehow V was able to make the Voice guy think he was a babydoll by burning his priceless babydoll collection. Pure, unrealistic fiction. And wrecking the Chancellor's mind by showing him disturbing images through the computer? Yeah... brains don't quite work that way. Even people ridden with guilt over their past crimes can't be broken that easily, or more importantly, that predictably.

It was OK as a movie, but they let down a seminal work of fiction pandering to a modern desire for action sequences.

The movie was an reinterpretation of the comic, not an attempt to reproduce it. And it did a marvelous job of making a scenario that is actually relevant to people today--government becoming tyrannical out of fear over terrorism. A government producing a bio weapon that accidentally kills everyone except in London where they sell the antidote and get rich is just sorta too far beyond the pale. Who would want to be rich in a world where essentially there is only one city left? Not even a big drooling idiot would hatch that kind of a plot, although it is clear that the Chanellor and Prospero and the other ruling elites, except for the chief detective, were big fat idiots in the comic, not the sorts of people you'd predict rising to control all of society. The whole afluence thing is exactly why the movie matters. It's just like America. The government tells us that we can be rich and safe and happy as long as we turn over our freedoms to them.

As for pandering to action sequences... The movie didn't have all that many. It had only two fights, the first one (against the fingermen) was very short and not Hollywooded up at all, and the second was very fancy, but wasn't just pandering. The whole "ideas are bulletproof" thing sort of kept it from being meaningless flash. In conclusion, you're wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[ornot]

Evey in the comic was one dimensional. Weak as a bunny rabbit -> Strong as an invincible assassin. And all it took was a little torture... Comic Evey was actually like a little girl, V read to her, and taught her about really basic facts of history, because the tyrannical regime had turned people like her into ignorant peasants who needed a Villian to pull them out of the dark ages. She was more like an actual person in the movie, more like you or me, which made her more relevant.



Fate was neat, but it was hopelessly dated. The movie would have lost all believability and turned most people off if it turned out that V overthrew the government by hacking just one single computer system that the government was stupid enough to rely on. That would have divorced it from modern cultural relevance, which is what makes the movie good in the first place.

The worst part about the comic is how Moore treated mental illness. The comic relied on the idea that you can not only induce psychosis in someone, it can be the exact right kind of psychosis that you want, and have the exact crippling effect you want it to have. Somehow V was able to make the Voice guy think he was a babydoll by burning his priceless babydoll collection. Pure, unrealistic fiction. And wrecking the Chancellor's mind by showing him disturbing images through the computer? Yeah... brains don't quite work that way. Even people ridden with guilt over their past crimes can't be broken that easily, or more importantly, that predictably.



The movie was an reinterpretation of the comic, not an attempt to reproduce it. And it did a marvelous job of making a scenario that is actually relevant to people today--government becoming tyrannical out of fear over terrorism. A government producing a bio weapon that accidentally kills everyone except in London where they sell the antidote and get rich is just sorta too far beyond the pale. Who would want to be rich in a world where essentially there is only one city left? Not even a big drooling idiot would hatch that kind of a plot, although it is clear that the Chanellor and Prospero and the other ruling elites, except for the chief detective, were big fat idiots in the comic, not the sorts of people you'd predict rising to control all of society. The whole afluence thing is exactly why the movie matters. It's just like America. The government tells us that we can be rich and safe and happy as long as we turn over our freedoms to them.

As for pandering to action sequences... The movie didn't have all that many. It had only two fights, the first one (against the fingermen) was very short and not Hollywooded up at all, and the second was very fancy, but wasn't just pandering. The whole "ideas are bulletproof" thing sort of kept it from being meaningless flash. In conclusion, you're wrong (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I was actually prepared to let this slide with a shrug and a "well, people's opinions differ" until I read your last line. That level of pompous assery is ridiculous, and must be opposed.

I'm perfectly prepared to accept that there were some aspects that could be updated, but the relationship between V and Evey was utterly wrecked. In the comic she was a child, brutalised by the government's policies, educated and moulded by V into the character she eventually became. In the film, she is V's equal from the start, thus diminishing his character, and making Evey's development unbelievable.

Fate was neat, and not necessarily hopelessly dated. Supercomputers still exist in popular culture, and having a soulless machine behind the rise to power of singularly unpleasant men would probably be more acceptable than such people gaining power by themselves. Fate wasn't necessary, but did provide a level of complexity to the story as well as explaining how V was able to evade the authorities.

Regardless of how accurately Moore portrayed the breaking of Prothero and the Great Leader in terms of psychology, the viewing public could easily be expected to accept it. From a biologist's perspective, a devastating bio-weapon is unrealistic, but we are expected to accept that all the time in movies, because most people don't have and aren't expected to have a firm grasp of the science. Similarly with neuroscience.

Quite were you got the impression that all the other cities had been destroyed I don't know, but it's irrelevant to a comparison of the film with the book.

I am prepared to concede that the affluence depicted in the movie wasn't a deathblow, and in fact, aside from wrecking the dynamic between the two core characters, it was an alright adaptation, even standing alone as a quite alright film. It could have been better.