Secret Services...others than FBI, Anyone already made up some? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Iota]

Hi all!

Today there are a lot of different secret services agencies covering the various fields of espionage, security matters and other stuff.

In the SR 4 rules so far only the FBI is covered, but I was wondering whether there still would be some other secret service agencies.

Since there are a bunch of people out there doing a lot of great work improving the sixth world with their own stuff, I wanted to ask if anyone already had some ideas on this topic.

[CanRay]

Well, there's "No Such Agency". (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

And, IIRC, the Department of Water and Wastewater, "DWW", has special teams for dealing with issues in the sewers... Which have gotten much worse after Magic came back...

[nezumi]

Good catch on the DWW. They were involved one of the novels (my first introduction to Shadowrun, actually).

In the US, we currently have the NSA, FBI, CIA, Secret Service, DOD branches and DHS all involved in what you might consider 'spying' or intelligence gathering. I expect that the corporations have also all invested themselves in some degree or another into the business, both contracting out to government, and for corporate purposes (keep in mind, like all other lines of business, government operates very different from corporate, even if you're just a contractor). Corporate Court most likely has one as well, for what it's worth.

[vladski]

Hi all!

Today there are a lot of different secret services agencies covering the various fields of espionage, security matters and other stuff.

In the SR 4 rules so far only the FBI is covered, but I was wondering whether there still would be some other secret service agencies.

Since there are a bunch of people out there doing a lot of great work improving the sixth world with their own stuff, I wanted to ask if anyone already had some ideas on this topic.

While it's not exactly "canon" per se, the 2006 Gencon Tournament "Third Law" (sponsored by the kind folks that produce SR) featured runners composed of several UCAS agencies, including:
CIA
FBI
ATF
Federal Marshals
Homeland Security

The mission was a joint deal seeking out a terrorist.

In my own world, my players are Federal Marshals that were hired from the ranks of Lonestar to make up a special task force. Their commander is the character I played in that tourney, Marshal Nelson ("I am NOT a field agent!") who was assigned his own task squad about a year after the timeline of the adventure ended.

Vlad

[nezumi]

(grr.. post got stuck in the tubes...)

I'm really wondering what ATF is up to in 2050. In 2008, they mostly harass legitimate gun vendors. However, seeing as the illicit gun trade isn't just flourishing, but seems to be generally encouraged, I don't think they're into that any more. They won't be heading into the barrens to shut down any illegal stills either, although they could be active in combating BTLs. Regardless, makes me think either they've completely reinvented themselves again (certainly not unheard of), or they disappeared with the creation of the UCAS and were never revived. I won't be shedding any tears for them.

Secret Service was originally formed to deal with counterfeit currency. They were part of Department of Treasury until 2003. Now they're part of DHS and have mostly dropped the whole counterfeiting gig. I'm sure, however, there's a special division of people who deal with counterfeiting, especially counterfeiting SINs and electronic bank information. It would have to be a branch of hackers with lots of cop thugs at their beck and call. Kinda scary, now that I think about it.

[Wesley Street]

SOMEBODY's gotta harass those legitimate gun vendors. And who is going to control unregulated booze and tobacco if not the ATF? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I may be wrong about this but I believe the Lone Star Sourcebook stated that the ATF, along with the DEA, was purchased from the UCAS government by Lone Star.

One of the most (in)famous corporate intelligence agents were the Seraphim, under Cross Applied Technologies. But since Cross is either gone or greatly reduced in scale with the death of its CEO and an aggressive take-over by arch-rival Ares Macro, I don't know what the final fate of the Seraphim would be.

If the USSS is part of the DHS now who handles counterfeiting?

[Drogos]

I have the Seraphim infiltrating Ares and the leaders defecting to Horizon to continue their war against Damien Knight (the devil). Knight believes he is getting control of the information database and the spy network with his aquisitions, but he is in for a rude awakening in a handful of years. But that is just my storyline for them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Wesley Street]

Ex-Seraphim would make for a most excellent runner backstory.

There's a listing of civilian government agencies working in Seattle in Runner Havens but unfortunately I don't have my copy on me at the moment. I'd assume Joint Task Force Seattle would have an Army HUMINT and SIGINT unit attached to it.

[nezumi]

Secret Service still does counterfeiting, it's just not their number 1 priority (#1 is protecting the prez, obviously).

[hyzmarca]

Secret Service still does counterfeiting, it's just not their number 1 priority (#1 is protecting the prez, obviously).

Which is funny considering the number of times that Presidents have survived only due to incompetent assassins compared to the number of assasination attempts that they actually stopped. (10 assasination attempts have failed due to assassin incompetence, 1 due to bystander intervention, 1 due to local police intervention (in Kuwait), and 1 due to secret service security measures). In 2005 someone threw a grenade at George Bush. It fell short because the the assassin accidentally hit a girl with it failed to detonate due to a defect of some sort. Had the Assassin actually had good aim and a different grenade Cheney would be President right now.

[Method]

If you want obscure check out the OST... you do know the OST don't you??

[edit]The DOE also maintains Special Response Teams which are supposedly some of the baddest of the bad when it comes to SWAT operations.[/edit]

[nezumi]

I didn't know their record was so weak. That said, Shadowrun notwithstanding, actually jumping in front of a bullet is pretty tough.

[hyzmarca]

I didn't know their record was so weak. That said, Shadowrun notwithstanding, actually jumping in front of a bullet is pretty tough.

It is really an issue of the impossibility of building a perfect defense against modern weapons in public appearances combined with the fact that attackers can pick and choose their time and place to best exploit flaws in defense. Also, the vast majority of people who consider assasination are mentally ill and never get close to their targets due too poor planning. Those few who are sane and who plan well are far more likely to get close enough to actually make an attempt and far more likely to succeed.

[Wesley Street]

Another obscure agency is the Diplomatic Security Service (which is part of the Bureau of Diplomatic Security). Their agents come from all walks of life and they are unique in that they're both legal diplomats and law-enforcement officers. Their agents handle protection, cyber, info and physical security issues at embassies; and investigate terrorist activities caused by Americans on foreign soil.

[Mäx]

SOTA 2064 has a whole chapters about spies and differend inteligence agencies. It has a fluff pieces for:
-CIA(UCAS)
-UGB(Russia)
-Mossad(Israel)
-Argus(MET 2000)
-ERLA(CAS)
-Information Secretariat(Tir Tairngire)
-MI-5(UK)
-MIFD(Shiawase)
-Seraphim(Former Cross Applied Technologies)
-Watchers(Dunkelzahn)

[Faelan]

The Secret Service stops a multitude of potential threats to the president every year. The problem is that when doing executive protection you are inevitably at a huge disadvantage, all it takes is someone who knows what they are doing and is willing to die accomplishing their mission. It is a testament to their professionalism that pretty much any assassination attempt that might have a chance of success occurs at close range. The fact that they shut down the long range options so effectively, that ot have any chance of success it has to be up close, well then you are dealing with a crowd and the threats multiply. I don't care how good you are it's impossible to completely protect someone who is consistently doing things counter to good protection.

[FlakJacket]

In the SR 4 rules so far only the FBI is covered, but I was wondering whether there still would be some other secret service agencies.

Since there are a bunch of people out there doing a lot of great work improving the sixth world with their own stuff, I wanted to ask if anyone already had some ideas on this topic.

Going from memory the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) is still about and has now become the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Telesma (ATF&T) to cover the magic angle. The US Marshals Service merged with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police aka. the Mounties when what was left of the US and Canada joined together to form the UCAS and seem to be the guys in charge of the matrix now, I want to say it's mentioned in Target: Matrix, as well as their current day jobs. The Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) is still going strong and now has BTLs to deal with as well. As you've already mentioned the FBI is also there and I'm sure that I've seen mentions of the Secret Service in one place or another but I'll let someone else drag out an actual reference for it. They also seem to have retconned the World Trade Centre terrorist attacks and creation of the Department of Homeland security into Shadowrun's back-history, something I have fairly mixed feelings about at best, so you've also got them as the central clearinghouse as well. I'm sure there are more but that's all I can think of off the top of my head.

For intelligence agencies I was working on collecting together what had been mentioned in the sourcebooks so far and Raygun used to have a sub-site on his pages about them that grew out of a thread I started here in the forums but unfortunately real got in the way of things for me and Ray's site disappeared during the last big maintenance overhaul of the main dumpshock site IIRC. And since he's not really playing all that much nowadays or interested in Fourth Edition I doubt it'll be back up any time soon. I keep meaning to have a chat with him about it.

[hyzmarca]

The Secret Service stops a multitude of potential threats to the president every year. The problem is that when doing executive protection you are inevitably at a huge disadvantage, all it takes is someone who knows what they are doing and is willing to die accomplishing their mission. It is a testament to their professionalism that pretty much any assassination attempt that might have a chance of success occurs at close range. The fact that they shut down the long range options so effectively, that ot have any chance of success it has to be up close, well then you are dealing with a crowd and the threats multiply. I don't care how good you are it's impossible to completely protect someone who is consistently doing things counter to good protection.

Potential doesn't really count. The vast majority of threats they investigate were never serious to begin with.

Long range attacks are still viable, though in many cases heavier weapons would be required. Roadside bombs and mines are effective against motorcades, though their use requires knowing potential routes in advance and they would probably be discovered upon inspection of the route. As an armored limo can't survive multiple anti-tank hits, the use of HEAT and HEDP weapons at range against motorcades is very effective. And, needless to say, anyone with a cruise missile could take him out effortlessly during a public address.

[WeaverMount]

And, needless to say, anyone with a cruise missile could take him out effortlessly during a public address.

Assuming you can use it better than the Israelis

[WearzManySkins]

Assuming you can use it better than the Israelis

Well the Israelis have a better hit ratio than the US of recent times, in the past times no ie USS Liberty. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif) But was that really a mis IDed target.

One could also use one of the UAV's to deliver a smart package into the target. FYI the US Military is not the only one with arm able UAV's.

But as some have already posted gaining the information of the route will allow some interesting weapons to be used.

WMS

[Faelan]

Long range attacks are still viable, though in many cases heavier weapons would be required. Roadside bombs and mines are effective against motorcades, though their use requires knowing potential routes in advance and they would probably be discovered upon inspection of the route. As an armored limo can't survive multiple anti-tank hits, the use of HEAT and HEDP weapons at range against motorcades is very effective. And, needless to say, anyone with a cruise missile could take him out effortlessly during a public address.

Long range attacks are viable assuming once again you know where, when, and how. Yes much heavier weapons are needed. Good luck getting anything man portable to affect that armored car. HEAT weapons that are man portable, and at least somewhat concealable are also pretty inaccurate at range. HEDP won't do much to it, and once again anything I can think of that you might be using is pretty damn inaccurate. Yes anyone with a cruise missile could, quite right about that, know anyone who has access. Every option you mentioned was very high risk, with a minimal success chance, not the way someone is going to go because of the degree of deterrence. Snipers are always an option with a much better chance of actually hitting the target however that's why exposure is usually limited, and if not the venue is controlled and likely firing positions are covered by fire. The Secret Services job sucks, but if they were not there we would go through presidents like water vis losing one here and there. So in my mind potentials do matter. Deterrence is the principal means of executive protection, because if someone wants your client dead bad enough it will come to a head, the shit will hit the fan and then it is a crap shoot whether they live or die.

[hyzmarca]

Anyone with sufficient programing knowledge could build an effective cruise missile guidance system from an of-the-shelf GPS device and a Playstation 2. Building an airframe and loading it up with explosives isn't terribly difficult or expensive. One can make RDX out of cleaning supplies. A good engine is expensive, but one can build a pulse-jet engine in a backyard from scrap parts.

[Faelan]

Only a couple of problems with that. One is the degree of ecm/eccm available in the convoy, number two is this badass toy. Chances are the ghetto cruise missile would get shot down.

[hyzmarca]

Only a couple of problems with that. One is the degree of ecm/eccm available in the convoy, number two is this badass toy. Chances are the ghetto cruise missile would get shot down.

That depends very much on cruising altitude and attack angle. Sufficient cruising altitude combined with a 90 degree attack angle would render anti-aircraft guns useless.

[Caine Hazen]

What, no love for the CAS Texas Rangers?

[FlakJacket]

Unless they've got radar or someone gets lucky and sees it coming in from far out I'm guessing that even a home made missile would likely be travelling too fast to be able to hit a lot of the time, even with a minigun. That video you posted looks more like it's for taking out ground targets than anything else and maybe slow moving, well slow in comparison to things like jet aircraft, aerial targets like helicopters.

But really would you even need anything that high tech? Mortars have to be some of the most basic weapons you can get and yet are still highly effective. With a moderately equipped engineering facility you should be able to build mortars that would be big enough and with enough bang to be able to be fired off from outside the main security zone surrounding a target, decent size ones have a range of 3 or 4 miles IIRC, and with a pretty good chance of taking them out.

What, no love for the CAS Texas Rangers?

We were saving that one for Wounded Ronin. Well contributing bad 80s television shows and films does seem to be his designated job around here. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Anyhow, UCAS Marshals might still be around, doing the job the US Marshals/RCMP did before, which was handle things that tresspass over multiple jurisdictions (Federal Prisoner transfers for example.).

[FlakJacket]

The US Marshals Service merged with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police aka. the Mounties when what was left of the US and Canada joined together to form the UCAS and seem to be the guys in charge of the matrix now, I want to say it's mentioned in Target: Matrix, as well as their current day jobs.

Anyhow, UCAS Marshals might still be around, doing the job the US Marshals/RCMP did before, which was handle things that tresspass over multiple jurisdictions (Federal Prisoner transfers for example.).

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[CanRay]

Hey, not that far off! Sorry to have missed that.

And now I have another group of baddies to send after 'Runners.

...

Wait, in charge of the Matrix. That would mean they're on the UCAS Government Frontlines against Technomancers! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif)

[Faelan]

Except thats not the only stuff they have available. You act as if this theoretical attack is occurring in a vacuum. Ever notice all the little Apache's in town when the prez is in town, or the frequency of low flying fast movers. I would bet money at least one of those suburbans is packing stingers on top of that. Altitude equals auto death for your cruise missile. Low altitude flight equals more obstacles and slower flight which makes it vulnerable. Sorry not buying that idea.

[WearzManySkins]

Why Reinvent the Wheel when such interesting systems are available on the Black Market.

Things like the TOW system, IIRC the Israeli's during one of their many encounters against tanks uses such a system for "sniping" at tanks at ranges beyond the listed range of the system. There are other similar "man portable" systems available too.

As for the Garage Cruise missile and the pop up mini gun, *shrugs*

There are currently missile systems in place that travel at mach 3+ for 250 nm, at 100,000+ feet and attack at a 85 degree dive angle. Very few systems in place today can touch such systems, the only one in the US Arsenal was retired ie the F-14 Tom Cat and it sole built purpose the AIM-54 Phoenix. Also the attacking missile systems can carry a Thermonuclear warhead so the need for precision targeting of the convoy is reduced greatly. Even Presidential Armored limo is not up of being in ground zero for a multi-kiloton warhead explosion.

WMS

[FlakJacket]

Another obscure agency is the Diplomatic Security Service (which is part of the Bureau of Diplomatic Security). Their agents come from all walks of life and they are unique in that they're both legal diplomats and law-enforcement officers. Their agents handle protection, cyber, info and physical security issues at embassies; and investigate terrorist activities caused by Americans on foreign soil.

Speaking of the State Department another part of it that's good for interesting character backgrounds is the Bureau of Intelligence and Research, often just referred to as INR, their in-house intelligence organisation. It's nowhere near the size and funding of some of the other federal agencies but from some of the articles I've read they'll often beat them on correctly getting things right in certain areas, although that's not to say that they're always right.

[Earlydawn]

One of my favorite conspiracy theories is some kind of black ops component to NEST.

[martindv]

Going from memory the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) is still about and has now become the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Telesma (ATF&T) to cover the magic angle.

Alchohol, Tobacco, Telesma and Firearms (ATTF), actually. There was a SR2 book that called it the AFT&M(agic).

The US Marshals Service merged with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police aka. the Mounties when what was left of the US and Canada joined together to form the UCAS and seem to be the guys in charge of the matrix now, I want to say it's mentioned in Target: Matrix, as well as their current day jobs.

Perhaps. Or perhaps Matrix Marshals are a separate agency like the Federal Air Marshal Service.

The Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) is still going strong and now has BTLs to deal with as well.

The Drug Enforcement Administration was sold to Lone Star decades ago, and became DED. There is a Drug Enforcement Agency mentioned in Runner Havens.

As you've already mentioned the FBI is also there and I'm sure that I've seen mentions of the Secret Service in one place or another but I'll let someone else drag out an actual reference for it.

They're all over the books dealing with or that even refer to the 2057 election.

the Department of Homeland security into Shadowrun's back-history,

Well, there was a pretty big goddamn act of terrorism between SR3 and SR4.

For intelligence agencies I was working on collecting together what had been mentioned in the sourcebooks so far

There's a page on the Sixth World Wiki for intelligence agencies.

What, no love for the CAS Texas Rangers?

Fuck Texas.

[Kyoto Kid]

Ex-Seraphim would make for a most excellent runner backstory.

...indeed it does as my character Night Angel proves. Formerly an H5 operative (Human Intelligence) who ran the gamut of Seraphim missions though specialised in C8 & C9 assignments.

Formerly had the "Kiss of Death" (Chem Gland) prior to the crash. Now has False Front (still has some "friends in high places") and is more an infiltration specialist for hire. She is the only character I actually carried over from 3rd to 4th ed with the original backstory.

..and Lucien, you're still morte, and I'm not!

--night angel

...yeah she's picked up a few odd "quirks" over the last ten years.

[Iota]

So there are still a bunch of agencies...well...I guess it could be stated that their behavior is still quite the same as nowadays, meaning: the FBI does whatever it wants, CIA feeling like god, ATT&F believing themselves to be cooler than the rest and so on...

Question: would the FBI operate outside the UCAS as long as they feel it`s their case/something personal, or would they call the CIA in?

[Shiloh]

...I would bet money at least one of those suburbans is packing stingers on top of that...

And you'd win your bet. They put Stingers with the highpoint obs/sniper teams too.

Mortars are shockingly inaccurate and you'd need some pretty special ammo (think EFP bomblets) to breach an Executive Protection limo's armour. Most people after the pres aren't after killing scores of bystanders, historically.

A 90 degree attack vector involves the cruise missile getting high up: it will be shot down before starting its final approach.

[Faelan]

A nuclear option or a full military grade option (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) well I give up say hello to a World War. Fortunately no government has been insane enough to fund such an attempt... yet.

[CanRay]

Oooooooooooooooooooooo, Mounted Matrix Marshals!

*Begins writing notes*

And I thought the "Phone Police" in Shadowrun were bad enough news!

[Wesley Street]

The Drug Enforcement Agency (DEA) is still going strong and now has BTLs to deal with as well.

According to the Lone Star sourcebook, the DEA was purchased by Lone Star in 2032 and was re-tasked as the Division of Drug and Chip Enforcement.

Many United States cabinet level departments have some kind of law-enforcement or intelligence gathering agency under it. For example, the Department of Interior's US Park Rangers. Some are Yogi Bear types who hand out tourist info, some are equipped like beat cops who patrol the Mall in D.C., some are geared up in SWAT kit to take down hillbilly meth labs in the backwoods.

[Shiloh]

National Reconnaissance Office.

They run satellites. And SigInt, and have very deep and very black pockets. Pretty good bet they'll have some hard bastards in black VTOLs.

[Wesley Street]

NRO just handles satellites (Freedom's Sentinel in Space!). Black bird flights along with their corresponding SIGINT would be primarily handled by the Air Force under NSA direction. But no doubt there's a lot of overlapping as SIGINT is conducted by pretty much every intelligence agency to some capacity. SIGINT has also been a hot-button topic in the government as more funds are pumped into satellites and electronic recon and less into eyes-on-the-ground HUMINT.

[FlakJacket]

Well, there was a pretty big goddamn act of terrorism between SR3 and SR4.

Really? Wow, I never noticed. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

What I meant was that it happened after the Shadowrun timeline diverged so you've had X amount of years worth of sourcebooks that never mentioned it and then *poof* it appears. I suppose you can argue that what with Fourth Edition it allows you to have a bit of leeway and a clean start, but it's just one of those personal things that I'm not all that fond of. But that's just me.

According to the Lone Star sourcebook, the DEA was purchased by Lone Star in 2032 and was re-tasked as the Division of Drug and Chip Enforcement.

Looks like either someone missed the Lone Star reference or the UCAS decided to restart it up again. Which would make a twisted kind of sense considering how governments often act, "Hey we can make some major cash selling off the DEA... *Six months later* Crap you know that was actually kinda useful, lets start another one!" and it ends up costing them more than what they got paid for the original. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wesley Street]

As much as I despise Marty McTrollFlameTroll's attitude I have to admit that using Crash 2.0 as the Shadowrun 9/11 makes a hell of a lot of sense (not that THAT hasn't been heavily alluded to already in the BBB and Runner Havens). The Shadowrun timeline's DHS may be a new relatively Department and may have started up under the Colloton administration.

[hyzmarca]

And you'd win your bet. They put Stingers with the highpoint obs/sniper teams too.

Mortars are shockingly inaccurate and you'd need some pretty special ammo (think EFP bomblets) to breach an Executive Protection limo's armour. Most people after the pres aren't after killing scores of bystanders, historically.

A 90 degree attack vector involves the cruise missile getting high up: it will be shot down before starting its final approach.

Mortars wouldn't be used against the limo, which is a decidedly harder target than most buildings, but against the facility where the President is appearing. The indirect high-explosive option in far more useful against structures than it is against limos.

The ability to shoot down a cruise missile can be limited by high speeds and small radar cross section.

But, really, other than people who are mentally ill, the only individuals who actually have a motive to kill a President are Vice Presidents. The nature and inertia of the political system means one person's death is unlikely to result in any significant policy changes.


Don't forget the Bureau of Paranormal Research and Defense.

[FlakJacket]

Mortars wouldn't be used against the limo, which is a decidedly harder target than most buildings, but against the facility where the President is appearing. The indirect high-explosive option in far more useful against structures than it is against limos.

Best target I can think of is when he's on-board Marine One either going to or coming back from somewhere like camp David from the White House and just landed or just before they take off. Ties the President to having to be in a pre-known location and his limites personal movement. Plus if you get lucky you could also touch off anything explosive or highly flammable like aviation fuel that's on-board as well. That or one of those open air signing ceremonies. Set up three teams about a mile or two out and when you see on the live television broadcast that the targets are in place just bombard the target area with a mix of high explosive and anti-personnel mortar shells for sixty-ninety seconds before making an escape and in the carnage hope you get him. Even if you don't whoever you have killed and how close you came to killing the primary target, the just look how close they came factor, should be good enough publicity-wise in any circumstance.

[Earlydawn]

Best target I can think of is when he's on-board Marine One either going to or coming back from somewhere like camp David from the White House and just landed or just before they take off. Ties the President to having to be in a pre-known location and his limites personal movement. Plus if you get lucky you could also touch off anything explosive or highly flammable like aviation fuel that's on-board as well. That or one of those open air signing ceremonies. Set up three teams about a mile or two out and when you see on the live television broadcast that the targets are in place just bombard the target area with a mix of high explosive and anti-personnel mortar shells for sixty-ninety seconds before making an escape and in the carnage hope you get him. Even if you don't whoever you have killed and how close you came to killing the primary target, the just look how close they came factor, should be good enough publicity-wise in any circumstance.

Speaking of Matrix enforcement groups..

[Fortune]

Hello there Mr. Homeland Security. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)

[WearzManySkins]

And you'd win your bet. They put Stingers with the highpoint obs/sniper teams too.

Mortars are shockingly inaccurate and you'd need some pretty special ammo (think EFP bomblets) to breach an Executive Protection limo's armour. Most people after the pres aren't after killing scores of bystanders, historically.

A 90 degree attack vector involves the cruise missile getting high up: it will be shot down before starting its final approach.

Correction the missiles I am referring too, are at 90,000 feet at 4 mach, launched from a platform at 250 nm, in current US Military airframes and AAM's nothing can touch it. Only near the target does it go into a 85 degree dive angle attack and slows down to ~3 mach, since most of them are Nuclear Armed an 350 kt airburst can ruin the motorcade's day. Besides there can always be more than one launched too.

Now if you have a 3D Fire Direction Radar available you "may" be able to get a firing solution and intercept it on its 85 degree dive attack but that may also trigger a 350 kt nuclear airburst. Stingers will not even get close to stopping it. Now a SM-6 Standard ERAM could but those are not everywhere.

As for the use of nuclear weapon does not insure Nuclear War, first you have to figure out who used it against you first. One does not want to go off half cocked. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

Do not forget the OSS as a 3 letter government agency of long ago.

WMS

[Faelan]

Well based on the stats you are giving I would assume you are talking about the AS 6 Kingfisher. Since it is launched from an air platform in the bomber category, think TU 16 or similar, my statement of which major government wants to start WWIII holds true. Seeing as how we would be looking at I believe three, maybe four governments who might have the capability to deliver, much less have the weapon system in question, I would not be too worried about a half cocked response.

[WearzManySkins]

Well based on the stats you are giving I would assume you are talking about the AS 6 Kingfisher. Since it is launched from an air platform in the bomber category, think TU 16 or similar, my statement of which major government wants to start WWIII holds true. Seeing as how we would be looking at I believe three, maybe four governments who might have the capability to deliver, much less have the weapon system in question, I would not be too worried about a half cocked response.

Well bombers do not have to be launching platform, it is with in the possibility for other large commercial aircraft/airliners to carry and launch such missiles. Besides the mechanical aspects one just needs the correct inputs/voltages/current to spin up the gyros and guidance systems. Wonderful thing of Soviet technology tends to take the low tech approach to issue resolution.

WMS

[kzt]

Well bombers do not have to be launching platform, it is with in the possibility for other large commercial aircraft/airliners to carry and launch such missiles. Besides the mechanical aspects one just needs the correct inputs/voltages/current to spin up the gyros and guidance systems. Wonderful thing of Soviet technology tends to take the low tech approach to issue resolution.

Safe carriage and separation of large, multi-ton objects at several hundred knots is not trivial. Unless you have tested it multiple times the most likely effect is that they strike each other or the carrier is destroyed by flutter during carriage. If you have tested it multiple times people are likely to hear about it.

[Cthulhudreams]

Who the fuck is going to have both the capability to get nuclear weapons, very sophisticated (and expensive!) cruise missiles, and also wnt to actually fire them at the president of the united stars. You'd have to be retarded, or a james bond villian.

I think Hyzmarca misrepresents the challenges of jury rigging a homebuilt cruise missiles. Yes you can make a guidance system with low powered computing parts. However, that is actually a major software engineering challenge to make someone that will work most of the time. Then you have to master the major engineering challenge of making a guided rocket. This is very, very, very hard.

But it is a surmountable challenge, but you don't merely have to surmount it, you have to nail it, because unless you have a pretty big warhead, you'd need to get pretty close to the president to score a kill.

Finally, building a reliable explosive device that can be detonated inside a truck is actually pretty tough. It has eluded many a terrorist or they have blown themselves up - witness the fate of many IRA bombs and bombers or people in palestine.

Its tough stuff making it at home. And you need something that can survive being launched via rocket. Yeah. Right.

And even once you have the parts, you still have a significant SI task to get it all working together, and build some sort of delivery vehicle. You need an organization, and a pretty damn sophisticated one.

Even once you have an organization, people are going to notice you building and test these things, so either you fly blind without testing in which case it probably won't work, or you test it and probably get arrested.

[Shiloh]

Correction the missiles I am referring too, are at 90,000 feet at 4 mach, launched from a platform at 250 nm, in current US Military airframes and AAM's nothing can touch it.

Who are you correcting? I was responding to the "home made" cruise missile suggestions. Not many of those at Mach4, 250nM range. And even fewer carrying nuclear warheads. Frankly, if you're talking about defense against nuclear attack you're so far out of the FBI's remit as to be entirely off topic.

...you "may" be able to get a firing solution and intercept it on its 85 degree dive attack but that may also trigger a 350 kt nuclear airburst...

Not so. Most nukes are more likely to *not* go off than actually detonate, if they're mechanically disrupted.

Stingers will not even get close to stopping it.

Well, of course they aren't. They wouldn't stop an ICBM either.

Now a SM-6 Standard ERAM could but those are not everywhere.

I bet there's one off the coast pretty much any time the Pres is near enough for a Bear or a Blackjack to be at standoff range. Sitting in an Arleigh-Burke's VLC. I don't care how lo-tek the Russkies were, toting along a Kitchen under a wing isn't a trivial exercise in aerodynamics.

[WearzManySkins]

Safe carriage and separation of large, multi-ton objects at several hundred knots is not trivial. Unless you have tested it multiple times the most likely effect is that they strike each other or the carrier is destroyed by flutter during carriage. If you have tested it multiple times people are likely to hear about it.

Again the mechanical aspects, I never said it would be easy or trivial, but doable.

WMS

[WearzManySkins]

That is why it would be easier to take a already tested cruise missile than to build one from scratch.

@Shiloh that correction was not at you. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) No defending the President from any attacks is well within their role, yes they may outsource to the various military organizations.

Reason a nuclear warhead is used in my examples is due the many issues of targeting a small moving target ie motorcade.

WMS

[Wesley Street]

Posts about obscure intelligence agencies and working them in Shadowrun... to how to whack the Prez. Okayyyyy, scary thread drift. Backing away slowly now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/question.gif)

[Ryu]

... and the answer is "powerbolt", delivered by a high-force summoned spirit of man.

[Drogos]

I'm pretty sure you're all on a list somewhere now (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

Hell, I was probably on a few lists before I even got into Role Playing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[nezumi]

... and the answer is "powerbolt", delivered by a high-force summoned spirit of man.

Seriously though, can you imagine how many mages are putting how many dice towards spell defense basically 24/7? Brings up the question though, how often will the prez actually do stuff in person, and how often would it be a trid phantasm? I mean sure, the 1% of the population of the room who is astrally aware would know (although I could imagine them saying 'no astral perception or projection is permitted during this speech as a security measure', then slamming anyone who breaks the rule), but the other 99% of the room and everyone watching the trid would have no idea.

[WearzManySkins]

Hell, I was probably on a few lists before I even got into Role Playing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

hmm that sounds familiar to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) Lists being the operative word. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

WMS

[Ryu]

Seriously though, can you imagine how many mages are putting how many dice towards spell defense basically 24/7? Brings up the question though, how often will the prez actually do stuff in person, and how often would it be a trid phantasm? I mean sure, the 1% of the population of the room who is astrally aware would know (although I could imagine them saying 'no astral perception or projection is permitted during this speech as a security measure', then slamming anyone who breaks the rule), but the other 99% of the room and everyone watching the trid would have no idea.

Honest misunderstanding, I was talking about the answer to the cruise missile. I´d use a Guardian spirit with Natural Weapon for the "other situation". If it wins initiative...

[Iota]

So there are still a bunch of agencies...well...I guess it could be stated that their behavior is still quite the same as nowadays, meaning: the FBI does whatever it wants, CIA feeling like god, ATT&F believing themselves to be cooler than the rest and so on...

Question: would the FBI operate outside the UCAS as long as they feel it`s their case/something personal, or would they call the CIA in?

Ok @ those who want to keep discussing how to kill the prez: Plz open your own thread!

[Shiloh]

Ok @ those who want to keep discussing how to kill the prez: Plz open your own thread!

We're discussing the role of a fictional Secret Service in a fictional future polity known as the UCAS... and how an airburst nuke would probably do the trick.

[FlakJacket]

Hello there Mr. Homeland Security. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wavey.gif)

Please, if stuff like this is enough to trigger notice of any kind I'd be on the list long before now. I think the post I made on another board a little while back on the best ways to carry out terrorist strikes in the the US - knock down electricity pylons, blow up the power sub-stations by the power plants or where stepped down near the cities, oil refineries or liquid natural gas depots, major gas or water pipes that supply large cities, key telecommunication hubs, driving a large truck full of AMFO into a major commuter tunnel and detonating it to collapse the tunel stc. - on targets that would cause a lot of dusruption yet are fairly lightly if at all guarded would have raised some flags way before plotting to kill the President would. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Drogos]

Please, if stuff like this is enough to trigger notice of any kind I'd be on the list long before now. I think the post I made on another board a little while back on the best ways to carry out terrorist strikes in the the US - knock down electricity pylons, blow up the power sub-stations by the power plants or where stepped down near the cities, oil refineries or liquid natural gas depots, major gas or water pipes that supply large cities, key telecommunication hubs, driving a large truck full of AMFO into a major commuter tunnel and detonating it to collapse the tunel stc. - on targets that would cause a lot of dusruption yet are fairly lightly if at all guarded would have raised some flags way before plotting to kill the President would. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You'd like to think so wouldn't ya (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Woot, I love laughing at the expense of my government.

[Ryu]

Any corporation that provides public service needs some form of secret service. You do not want the public to doubt the security of their level of service. Yet you need an active security force.

The department of Water Disposal was IIRC part of a Who hunts the Hunter?, demon-hunting in the severs for astronomic pay.

Matrix GridSec has to have ultra-hard strike teams to ensure that the infrastructure nodes are taboo for everyone. They would be paranoid about data security, so NO COMMENT is all ever said about them.

All corporations have intelligence divisions, nothing obscure about that. The corp specialities really show in their special assets, be it tech, magic, augmentations, weapons... much of the fluff is from older sources. Even with the outdated corp info, I recommend the Corporate Shadowfiles for SR economics. Pretty good stuff.

Many policlubs will finance some form of secret service, or at least have a few people with access to the shadow community and a network of snitches.

[Caine Hazen]

Please, if stuff like this is enough to trigger notice of any kind I'd be on the list long before now. I think the post I made on another board a little while back on the best ways to carry out terrorist strikes in the the US - knock down electricity pylons, blow up the power sub-stations by the power plants or where stepped down near the cities, oil refineries or liquid natural gas depots, major gas or water pipes that supply large cities, key telecommunication hubs, driving a large truck full of AMFO into a major commuter tunnel and detonating it to collapse the tunel stc. - on targets that would cause a lot of disruption yet are fairly lightly if at all guarded would have raised some flags way before plotting to kill the President would. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

So we should be expecting a delay into your trip to the US this year? You know what they really do to those people they "interrogate" at the airport?

[Ryu]

And that they really and within their full rights interrogate people at the airports?

[WeaverMount]

About a year ago, I called a friend of mine while I had some time to kill in an airport. Pretty we start talking about game. Pretty quick I realize I'm saying things out loud in an airport like "Oh yeah, with your contacts getting termite is no issue, it's really nothing to cook" and "Mortors? It will take a bit, but it's totally do able. ... yeah, likely is the best way to get that target. ... yeah uhh huuu, ... yeah ... we're still go for monday"

[CanRay]

The department of Water Disposal was IIRC part of a Who hunts the Hunter?, demon-hunting in the severs for astronomic pay.

Yep, that was the book. Department of Water and Wastewater (DWW).

And just when you thought Ghouls were bad. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Shiloh]

About a year ago, I called a friend of mine while I had some time to kill in an airport. Pretty we start talking about game. Pretty quick I realize I'm saying things out loud in an airport like "Oh yeah, with your contacts getting termite is no issue, it's really nothing to cook" and "Mortors? It will take a bit, but it's totally do able. ... yeah, likely is the best way to get that target. ... yeah uhh huuu, ... yeah ... we're still go for monday"

Meep. It still occasionally hits me: the sense of detachment that allows us gamers to have such conversations in public. "And then I shot him in the face for being a tosser." And we wonder why we get funny looks.

[Ryu]

If you want really funny looks, alternate between talking about weapons (SR) and how much funds one needs for retirement (real). You WILL notice that you are doing something wrong, noone is THAT uncouth.

[Snow_Fox]

Anyhow, UCAS Marshals might still be around, doing the job the US Marshals/RCMP did before, which was handle things that tresspass over multiple jurisdictions (Federal Prisoner transfers for example.).

Federal Marshalls are the enforcement arm of the Federal Court system. Which is why they do prisoner transport. They provide security for the courts, sieze property the courts declare forfit and hunt down people declare by the courts to be fugitives. The FBI does the investigative ,collect the evidence stuff. Marshalls don't need to sweat evidence. They're ordered to act and have the backing of the courts behind them. (I passed the written but there was a hiring freeze and I got into another line of work.)

For other agencies there's the British MI-5- the British FBI. and MI-6- Her Majesties Secret Service-
France's Deuxieme Bureau (hard case right wingers to oppose the openly socialist left in France.)
Israel's Mossad and of course whatever the flock the KGB is being called in 2070.

Then there aree more historical groups that could rise up from the dust.
Smersh. more properly division 6 of the MVD. A particulaly ruthless division of what became the KGB, under Beria in the early 1950's completely scary MF's. Believed to have been responsible for the death of Trotsky in Mexico and exterminating collaborators in the USSR as lands were taken back from the Nazi's.
This was disbanded when Krushchev came to power in an attempt to break the paranoid/death dealing way of life that had epitomised Soviet politics since 1918. As some Russians hark back to the "good ol' days" of vlast whose to say this wouldn't come back?

[WearzManySkins]

Interesting Modern Day weapon systems FIBER OPTIC GUIDED MISSILES (EFOGM)

FIBER OPTIC GUIDED MISSILES (EFOGM)

Could be used to take a high value target in a convoy in today's environment. In SR4 2070 can be vertically launched and high speed.

Lessons learned from the development of the fiber optic guided missile

Interesting read too.

WMS

[Snow_Fox]

from the anime "Gunslinger Girl" there's the Frettela. supposed to be a part of the Italian government fighting terrorists they sometimes have been used for political ends. They are assassins who work in teams of two. A handler who is usually pretty good at combat himself and a 'shooter' A cyber zombie who looks like a child, usually a little girl of about 11 years old.

They are expert shots and hand to hand combat killers, usually just waiting for their handler to turn them loose.

[Sir_Psycho]

In one particular game we played, by the 60's the CIA had been chopped down and mixed up to become the Central Intelligence Directorate. If I remember correctly they were run by a secretive cabal of nationalistic nutjobs called "the ring" or the "inner circle" or something.

What about the IRS? Some-one has to deal with tax revenue from the corporations, right? I imagine that either they've been so handicapped by extraterritoriality and the secretive black nature of the corps, or that it's only pissed them off and now they have their own crack strike teams, secret agents, and pissed off decker prodigies to get what's rightfully theirs.

The latter seems alot more fun. the door is kicked down and suddenly there is a myriad of laser sights pointed at your torso. A man in wrap-around shades, a trench coat and black gloves steps into your living room, pistol whips you with one hand and shoves a badge in your face with the other, "It's the Internal Revenue Service, bitch."

[martindv]

The IRS is listed as an intelligence agency in Runner Havens. They have their own Criminal Invesitgative Division, and by law all tax agents since Prohibition are legally allowed to carry firearms.

[CanRay]

Wonder what happened to Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS, pronounced "See-Sys"). Probably split up and rolled into the FBI and CIA when the UCAS was formed.

[martindv]

The general ruling on what happened with the union of the U.S. and Canada is that the U.S. government (all three branches) expanded and the Canadian government save for its "welfare state" disappeared.

[Sir_Psycho]

So canadians didn't end up with the U.S healthcare system? That's not very dystopian.

[Snow_Fox]

I wonder that sopmewhere along the way they don't roll the FBI, NSA, CIA, ATF into one agency. They came close after 9/11 and they taliban don't have mages!

The IRS is listed as an intelligence agency in Runner Havens. They have their own Criminal Invesitgative Division, and by law all tax agents since Prohibition are legally allowed to carry firearms.

geeks with guns, great.

[CanRay]

geeks with guns, great.

Hey, careful, some of those "Geeks" later left to become Shadowrunners "Because it was safer". The Chrome Accountant being one of the main ones!

[Fuchs]

Back in the 90s, I created the "Corporate Court Trouble Consultants" for my very first campaign. They were agents that mainly dealt with terrorists and other threats to the (business) world (which the CC's seated AAAs considered mainly to consist of themselves), sometimes lesser corps.

I used Adam Warren's cyberpunky-take on the WWWA Trouble Consultants as examples, adapted to Shadowrun.

[Fuchs]

Hey, careful, some of those "Geeks" later left to become Shadowrunners "Because it was safer". The Chrome Accountant being one of the main ones!

There's a comic about the IRS which should give some inspiration for those who use it in their games.

[Ryu]

Her comment fits SR and RL.

The german police groups SWAT-like units and white-collar-crime-investigation in the same departments, but I think our tax collectors are unarmed.

[hyzmarca]

Remember, people, that the IRS took down Capone. You don't mess with those motherfraggers.

[CanRay]

Remember, people, that the IRS took down Capone. You don't mess with those motherfraggers.

Yeah, but what have they done for us lately? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Wesley Street]

Remember, people, that the IRS took down Capone. You don't mess with those motherfraggers.

Technically it was the Treasury Department's IRS and the Justice Department's (now defunct) Bureau of Prohibition working in tandem. Few modern agencies handle EVERY aspect of major federal law-enforcement or intelligence gathering operations from start to finish. It's usually a collaborative effort.

[Wesley Street]

Wonder what happened to Canadian Security Intelligence Service (CSIS, pronounced "See-Sys"). Probably split up and rolled into the FBI and CIA when the UCAS was formed.

Seeing as how most of Canada was ceded to the NAN and Quebec, I'd imagine the majority of CSIS' physical assets went with it. What remained probably dissolved. Everything I read hints heavily that the UCAS is more United States than Canada. Imagine yourself fat, living with a grotesque healthcare system and a redneck neighbor who watches NASCAR while polishing his shotgun and there you go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[CanRay]

Seeing as how most of Canada was ceded to the NAN and Quebec, I'd imagine the majority of CSIS' physical assets went with it. What remained probably dissolved. Everything I read hints heavily that the UCAS is more United States than Canada. Imagine yourself fat, living with a grotesque healthcare system and a redneck neighbor who watches NASCAR while polishing his shotgun and there you go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I grew up in Northern Ontario.

Replace "Shotgun" with "Rifle", and I don't have to imagine it.

Fat is a good thing up here, however. Damn long, cold winters! Need that insulation to keep warm!

And then I moved to a place that's even colder than the arctic!

[Wesley Street]

Replace "Shotgun" with "Rifle", and I don't have to imagine it.

Fat is a good thing up here, however. Damn long, cold winters! Need that insulation to keep warm!

Rifles? I thought you all used harpoons.

You're the first Canadian I've heard make that statement. I met a Canuck couple while on vacation in Orlando and the woman in the pair was rather appalled by our girth-y American guts and lack of healthy eating options.

[CanRay]

Rifles. We've had them for years now. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

And there's "Fat" and there's "OMGWTFBBQ" that goes on in the US, and Canada as well... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[martindv]

So canadians didn't end up with the U.S healthcare system? That's not very dystopian.

It's why the CAS states seceded.

I wonder that sopmewhere along the way they don't roll the FBI, NSA, CIA, ATF into one agency. They came close after 9/11 and they taliban don't have mages!

The same reason the Homeland Security Act didn't create an American equivalent to the British security service, and why the FBI is not part of DHS yet rermains the primary agency dealing with counterterrorism: politics.

It's the same reason why there are a half-dozen uniform law enforcement agencies patrolling Washington, D.C. Everyone wants their own cops, and no one wants to share.

[CanRay]

Ah yes, politics...

Where adult people can go, "No! It's mine, you can't have any!" just like they did on the schoolground, and not be considered immature for it.

[MaxHunter]

Well... I could add about "path dependency" and the "persistence" of institutions, but yep, it's all about politics and not sharing a particular power niche with other people...

Cheers

Max

[WearzManySkins]

Ok here is a list of current Intelligence agencies
List of intelligence agencies

WMS

[Sir_Psycho]

Australia

Main article: List of Australian intelligence agencies
Australian Security Intelligence Organisation (ASIO)
Australian Secret Intelligence Service (ASIS)
Australian Protective Service (APS)
Defence Intelligence Organisation (DIO)
Defence Imagery and Geospatial Organisation (DIGO)
Defence Signals Directorate (DSD)
Office of National Assessments (ONA)

Ha! I didn't know of any other than ASIO. It's funny that we know more intelligence agencies in other countries than our own.


Also, have we heard anything from FEMA in SR history? Ever since Deus Ex I like the idea of them being conspirators to take over the world.

[Cthulhudreams]

The funny thing is I can think of several more - like the Defense security authority has a counter espionage function.