The Fragger - Insane Custom Weapon Design, Someone should take away my copy of arsenal... Options

[Rad]

This idea was spawned over the course of our last two gaming sessions. Last week, someone brought up the idea of using monowire-edged bullets to bypass armor. I pointed out that monofilament swords only get -1 AP, which indicates that monowire can't be backed by anything if you want the full 8P -4 AP damage code, and suggested monowire bolas instead.

Our next (last) session ended with us deep inside a Mitsuhama black research facility, with alarms going off everywhere and a milspec armored strike team on their way to enforce MCT's "Zero-Zone" policy. While discussing our need for Jabberwocky missiles to shoot down the troop transport when it arrives, I mentioned that I had found both monofilament bolas and underbarrel bola launchers in Arsenal. Our team's demolitions/weapons expert suggested replacing the bola weights with grenades, and the horror evolved from there. 24 hours later, I had finished statting this abomination with the weapon modification rules in Arsenal. If we survive, we are building it, if only to see the look on the GM's face when he bans it from the game.

-THE FRAGGER-

This heavily-modded underbarrel bola launcher is used only by dangeous psychotics with no regard for their or anyone else's safety. It launches special bola rounds consisting of two gecko-gripped frag grenades connected by a length of monowire. The round uses the same rules as a monofilament bola, detonates as a frag grenade with double the normal DV, and is capable of full autofire. The strength of The Fragger for the purposes of knockdown tests is 5. The weapon is fired using the exotic ranged weapon skill, and uses heavy pistol ranges. Upon firing, the grenades' voice activation/response system hums "The Ride of the Valkyries" in two-part harmony, followed by the announcement "You are fragged!" just prior to detonation.

A less lethal version of Fragger ammo, "Fragger Jr.", uses regular cord instead of monowire and is available at chargen, while an even more dangerous version, "Skull Fragger" uses White Phosphorus Grenades and comes in ammo drums decorated with a white skull.

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The Fragger:

Underbarrel Bola Launcher (Availability 8R) 350 nuyen
Extended Clip, 50 round Drum (Concealability +2, Slots Used 2, Availability 6R) 1,000 nuyen
Firing Selection Change, FA (Slots Used 4, Availability 12F) 2,350 nuyen
Total: 3,700 nuyen

Fragger Ammo:
Monofilament Bola (Availability 16F) 2,500 nuyen
Frag Grenades, x2 (Availability 10F) 70 nuyen
Gecko Grip, x2 (Slots Used 1, Availability 6) 200 nuyen
Internal Smartgun System, x2 (Slots Used 1, Availability 6R) 70 nuyen
Voice Activation/Response, x2 (Slots Used 1, Availability 2) 100 nuyen
Total: 2,940 nuyen per round

Fragger Jr. Ammo:
Bola (Availability 6) 75 nuyen
Frag Grenades, x2 (Availability 10F) 70 nuyen
Gecko Grip, x2 (Slots Used 1, Availability 6) 200 nuyen
Internal Smartgun System, x2 (Slots Used 1, Availability 6R) 70 nuyen
Voice Activation/Response, x2 (Slots Used 1, Availability 2) 100 nuyen
Total: 515 nuyen per round

Skull Fragger Ammo:
Monofilament Bola (Availability 16F) 2,500 nuyen
White Phosphorus Grenades, x2 (Availability 12F) 240 nuyen
Gecko Grip, x2 (Slots Used 1, Availability 6) 200 nuyen
Internal Smartgun System, x2 (Slots Used 1, Availability 6R) 70 nuyen
Voice Activation/Response, x2 (Slots Used 1, Availability 2) 100 nuyen
Total: 3,280 nuyen per round

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Design points:

> Using bolas as the base weapon eliminates pesky grenade scatter. There was an issue last session where a rocket fired down a cooridor at a steel door landed behind the firer due to scatter. The GM agreed this was rediculous, and let us have a spirit hold the muzzle of the rocket launcher against the door and pull the trigger instead. If required by the GM, the heavy barrel weapon mod or somesuch could be applied to indicate the grenades had been specially modified/balanced to serve as bola weights, but he'll probably outlaw this anyway so I didn't bother. Other designs are possible, such as various explosive/detonator combos instead of actual grenades. This could actually make it a more powerful weapon, depending on how many kilos bola weights weigh.

> The weapon functions like a monofilament bola, wrapping around the target and slicing them up, with the same possibility for causing knockdown. The grenades detonate in the next pass on the attacker's inititave as normal. The gecko grip on the grenades and the monowire connecting them makes it very hard to free a target before the grenades go off. The Voice Activation/Response I added just for fun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

> Since two grenades are detonating at essentially the same point, it makes sense to apply the "blasts in a confined space" rule to combine the DV of the two shockwaves. If the blast from one grenade being reflected back at point-blank range doubles the DV, it makes sense that two grenades going off right next to each other would have a similar effect.

> The ammo drum and full-auto modifications were added specifically for allowing suppressive fire: An area attack with no penalties that can hit everyone in the area with the weapon's standard damage code? Think about it. I was planning on adding the foregrip mod and a smartgun system to make the Fragger a stand alone weapon, but the drum and firing selection change use up all six slots, and I didn't want to overmod. Besides, six slots for an underbarrel weapon is slightly pushing it anyway. An alternate (and more sane) version could drop the autofire and drum, and instead add a foregrip, integral smartgun system, and airburst link to make a more precise single shot muzzle-loading weapon. This version would benefit from being more concealable, (especially since it wouldn't be mounted on a rifle) and would probably be the same size as a heavy pistol.

So, the results of being hit by this thing are quite nasty:

First you've got the damage from the monowire (8P, -4 AP) as the bolas wrap around you. If you were moving, you've got to deal with the knockdown rules for bolas: Attacker's net hits + 3 (half the launcher's strength, rounded up) if that's equal or higher than your body, you go down. Regardless, you've now got two gecko gripped grenades stuck to you, humming merrily. Next IP, they explode. (24P +2 AP for standard Fragger and Fragger Jr. Ammo; or 16P -half AP for Skullfragger, with an additional 8P -half AP for the next 10 turns.)

A person with the minimum 6 body to be wearing heavy milspec armor without penalty (and no other modifications to his damage resistance test) has a dicepool of 22 to resist impact damage while in heavy milspec with the helmet on. (6 body + 14 heavy milspec + 2 helmet).

First, the monowire damage: 8P minus an average of 6 hits (22 dice -4 for AP divided by average 1 hit/3 dice), that's 2 boxes of physical damage. With a body of 6, our hapless trooper has a total of 11 boxes, so 9 boxes remain. Now, the grenades: 24P minus an average of 8 hits (22 dice +2 for AP divided by average 1 hit/3 dice) is 16 boxes of damage. The remaining 9 boxes, minus 16, put the target squarely at -7 boxes, which is one past his overflow limit.

Conclusion: Against a body 6 human in heavy milspec armor (with helmet), standard Fragger ammo does an average of 18 boxes of physical damage, which will kill the target in one hit. Even a body 20 augmented troll in heavy milspec armor will take 11 boxes of physical damage from the Fragger on average, requiring a total of four hits to exceed his condition modifier.

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The Fragger: 3,700 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
50-Round Fragger Ammo Drum: 147,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
50-Round Fragger Jr. Ammo Drum: 25,750 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
50-Round Skull Fragger Ammo Drum: 164,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)
Cheap Assault Rifle to mount it on: 500 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

The ability to take out a milspec-armored strike team with one burst of autofire?

Priceless.

[Delta56]

Sounds about right for the stuff a trained Armorer could do with most weapons and Arsenal.

My personal favorite is a Ruger Super Warhawk that uses the barreled weapon, also a Warhawk, that fires both with the same trigger pull (Gm okayed that, thought it would make sense instead of a whole nother weapon and trigger build). While it cuts your weapon's ammo in half, it also cuts the time to empty the cylinder in half, and put the gasvents on them to take care of recoil. Combine with a street samurai or a gun based adept with the min-maxed four passes, you're firing all six shots in three rounds, and then reloading.

Never found something to live past the second round, so it seemed to work pretty well. Yes, the idea was from the Hellgate London Redeemer.

Just imagine what you could do with the Ares HVAR, recoil comp mods, and a drum mag. Who needs auto-cannons?

... Oh wait! Full Auto Panthers...

Arsenal, like the other supplements, are scary to say the least.

[Mäx]

My personal favorite is a Ruger Super Warhawk that uses the barreled weapon, also a Warhawk, that fires both with the same trigger pull (Gm okayed that, thought it would make sense instead of a whole nother weapon and trigger build). While it cuts your weapon's ammo in half, it also cuts the time to empty the cylinder in half, and put the gasvents on them to take care of recoil. Combine with a street samurai or a gun based adept with the min-maxed four passes, you're firing all six shots in three rounds, and then reloading.

You do know that the canon modifier for firing two barrels at the same time is +1 to damage not douple or two seperate damages so Warhawk firing two barrels would be 7P.

[Delta56]

You do know that the canon modifier for firing two barrels at the same time is +1 to damage not douple or two seperate damages so Warhawk firing two barrels would be 7P.

Thats what I had told the GM, but he wanted me to roll them as separate hits. I figured if he -really- wanted to make it a run and gun campaign, who was I to tell him no? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) Like a Phys Adept's punches, it was alot of extra dice becoming hits.

But yes, 7P is right.

[Rad]

If he went with the SA firing selection mod, he'd have the rate of fire he's describing, (two bullets per complex action with a -1 recoil penalty) and each bullet would count separately for damage. Throwing in the underbarrel weapon mod seems more than a fair trade for using one attack roll instead of two separate ones. Actually, he doesn't really need the underbarrel mod for anything but flavor, firing each bullet with a separate roll gives you a better chance of hitting and missing with each one, while firing both on the same roll makes it an all or nothing proposition--both methods seem balanced with each other.

You don't actually need a gas vent to compensate for semi-auto recoil either. It's only -1, so something cheaper like a folding stock, personalized grip, or underbarrel weight would do.

As for full-auto assault cannons, the Fragger would do more damage. The best you get with full auto is a narrow full burst for +9 damage, total of 19P -5 AP with a panther cannon. The Fragger does 8P -4, then 24 +2, and it can do full auto too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Edit] Oh, you still have to make separate rolls and only get +1 DV? You got hosed, omae. Underbarrel weapon normally gives you half the weapon's ammo. Trading 3 bullets for single-trigger action that's less effective than SA seems like a gyp to me. Also, it's supposed to apply a +4 penalty to concealability and costs as much as the weapon attached, so at least it's cheaper than modding a warhawk to SA, if only by 50 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) .[/edit]

[Mäx]

The Fragger:
Underbarrel Bola Launcher (Availability 8R) 350 nuyen
Extended Clip, 50 round Drum (Concealability +2, Slots Used 2, Availability 6R) 1,000 nuyen
Firing Selection Change, FA (Slots Used 4, Availability 12F) 2,350 nuyen
Total: 3,700 nuyen

That's not exactly allowed by the RAW, becouse Bola launcher isn't a SMG nor an assaut rifle it can't get a drum mag and i would think that it can't get a firing section change either becouse of the exotict ammunition.

[sunnyside]

Double DV doesn't work either. If two grenades were thrown you wouldn't double the DV. Blast in a confined space is something else. Either do some kind of +1 DV thing or just have them resist twice.

If I was running a run and gun campaign I'd allow this. You have to take the special skill. And then if you ever glitch, oh my.

[Isath]

I do not see the fragger thing working that simple. First of, I do nor see the geckotape surviving the whole loading/firing process undamaged. Further it could actually be hindering the process, making jammings and misfires more likely. From your note it reads like you'd have gecko on the wire aswell... I do not see how geckotech would work with monowires. Sure, it needs grenadelauncher-type smartsystems modified to active the gecko and the grenades once fired. In short - unreliable.

I wonder, a weapon firing two grenades at once... is that a bola- or an exotic grenade-launcher? I'd rule it to be a grenade launcher and one unreliable at best.

Full Auto Option, well that doesn't sound reasonable. While this surpasses my comonsense a bit, I thing a bola-type grenadelauncher would have a hardtime achieving full auto firing rates. However it would again make such an unstable setup even more so.

Two grenades going of at more or less the same point at the same time would, under my ruling, not simply equal to nade-damagex2.

Underbarrel?... I'm not so sure about that... actually I not sure if any of this is possible point- or reason-wise.

So I do not know if I would rule the weapon as a working system that I would allow at my table, but if I did so it would bring alot of baggage and would not be as effective as the description above. First it would be risky to produce the ammo (experimental explosive weapons simply are;) ). Second I would rule the weapon as unreliable and would thereby reduce the number of 1's needed for a glitch on that weapon (even further when trying to engage fullauto). On a critical glitch, kiss your groups ass goodbye (most likely).

Better use a bolathrower with a mounted nade-lancher (or viceversa).

More or less this appears to be nonsense (IHMO).

[psychophipps]

Umm...if it's gecko-gripped grenades, how does it fire with an accuracy from the barrel, if at all (they do stick to it, after all)? If the (obvious answer) sabots are used, how do the sabots fly away after firing when they're gecko-gripped to the grenades?

Hmm... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

DOH!

[Isath]

That's what I thought aswell, but Gecko-Tech is able to be switched on and off. You would have to reprogramm the smartsoft of the grenade launcher to activate it along with the grenades...but it still is a bit far out. The gecko will come with several problems anyways.

[Rad]

Ah, I knew I forgot to address a few things.

First off, I considered the concept of this thing to be pretty ridiculous from the start, so I didn't approach the design with total seriousness.

That being said, I wanted to make this goofy, ridiculous weapon in as reasonable a manner as possible, rather than just pulling it out of my ass, which was responsible for some of the decisions, as I tried to stay as conventional as possible with my application of the weapon rules.

Now:

The Gecko Grip modification: Note this is not gecko tape added to the grenades, but an actual modification of the grenade casing itself. By RAW, gecko gripped weapons can be activated or deactivated wirelessly if they posses a smartgun system, or manually by pressing two buttons at the same time. I'd be hesitant about using the mod rules on a weapon's ammo, but since the entry for voice activation/response specifically mentions giving grenades that modification (which requires a smartgun system), I decided that was close enough.

The descriptions of how normal (non-smartlinked) grenades function in the BBB mentioned they have a built in feature that prevents them from arming until they have traveled 5 meters. That indicates that even "dumb" grenades are able to detect when they have been launched/thrown and can activate some kind of timing or distance calculating mechanism when that happens. Shouldn't be too hard to rig a smartlinked grenade to activate it's gecko grip after clearing the same minimum distance, in my opinion. If need be, you can assume the "internal smartgun system" to be a stand in for a slightly different smart weapon computer, which allows the use of VA/R and gecko grip activation. The weapon mod rules require a bit of flexibility, and this whole thing is pretty much required to be an involved custom job anyway.

No prob, we've got a specialist, and Ares contacts out the rear.

As for gecko grip working with monowire: To me, it doesn't really make sense that you can attach monowire to anything, shouldn't it cut right through it's handle? Since we have things like swords edged with monowire and rappelling gloves that let you grip it, I have to assume 2070's shadowrun tech has delt with this problem. If nothing else, one could assume the gecko grip covers the grenades in patches or strips, much like a velcro catch set I used to play with as a child, allowing sufficient contact surfaces to stick while clearing room for the monowire to connect without interference. To clarify: There is no gecko grip on the monowire, there doesn't need to be. The monowire cuts your hands and possibly your knife/wire cutters if you try to remove it, so the only safe way to untangle a victim is to attempt to unwind it holding one of the grenades--which are gecko gripped to the target and therefore hard to remove. It's not entirely necessary to the design, but since the whole point of this weapon is ridiculous mean-spirited overkill, why the frag not?

Bola Launcher VS Double Grenade Launcher: I thought about going with a MGL-6 with an underbarrel grenade launcher instead, but decided it would have required too many house rules to add in the bola effect. Changing the bola weights to grenades sounds much more reasonable and less involved than building a double-barreled, twin firing grenade launcher that has no precedent in SR4, then modding the barrels to allow a monowire connection between the rounds, and somehow packaging and firing the whole thing without any snags or mishaps. Not to mention getting the actual in-flight characteristics of a bola, which would require precise timing of the grenade launches.

Personally, I envision this thing as actually having custom made grenade-weights, built from scratch for that purpose, rather than just strapping grenades on there. It's not something just anyone could cook up, but from what I've seen of my team and our contacts, I think we could pull it off. We already have a citymaster packed with homemade explosives. God forbid we ever crash it.

Likewise, I originally intended this to be a stand-alone weapon, but there is no precedent I could find for turning an underbarrel weapon into a stand alone one, so I left it as an underbarrel weapon, requiring it to be mounted on a "rifle-sized firearm", as per the description of the underbarrel bola launcher.

I think it would be closer to say it was added to the frame of an assault rifle to create a complete, assault-rifle sized weapon, which brings me to my next point:

Ammo Drum Modification: Yes, by raw you can't do this. It says SMG's and Assault Rifles only. But considering it's a muzzle-loading weapon, and actually has no clip to extend, this was the closest I could get to a rule that allowed adding one. Additional clip wouldn't work, because it depends on the size of the first clip to determine how many rounds the new one holds. With no original clip to go by, there's no way to balance how big a clip you're adding, so sticking a drum on there works better, as it specifies the number of rounds.

The thing's got fragging autofire, and is about the size of an SMG anyway, so it's not that big of a jump. This is really more a case of using a similar mod's rules to cover for one that doesn't exist, but could conceivably be performed. Also, there's a grenade launcher in arsenal that uses an ammo drum.

Double DV for grenades: First off, can you name a core circumstance in which two grenades would detonate in the same place, at the same time? Barring the use of timers or rigged boobytraps, I can't, and that's essentially what this is. The rules don't specifically address two grenade detonations simultaneously side-by side, but the rules for demolitions and the blasts in confined spaces rules both support the assumptions I've made with this weapon.

Honestly, it would be simpler to stat this thing using demolitions rules, and it would probably end up more powerful, but since I don't have numbers for the weight of the bola balls and it was originally thought of as being grenades, I figure use the grenade rules and assume this is a similarly functioning analog

Full Auto: Mainly added for the "holy fuck!" effect, with an eye towards suppressive fire possibilities. It's not really intended to be reasonable, but bear with me here:

Assuming this whole thing has to be custom-built with extensive modifications anyways, here's how I picture it working: You have your "Ride of the Valkyries" humming, exploding, monofilament bola fragger rounds packed in a light casing, probably some kind of plastic with properties similar to rappelling gloves. These casings are packed with propellant, and loaded in the ammo drum as normal drum ammunition is. Bear in mind the Enfield GL-67 provides a precedent for grenades in ammo drums. The system then loads and fires each round, either ejecting the casing or disintegrating it. A high tech plastic that resists monowire but vaporises at firing temperatures sounds well within the means of shadowrun tech, but going with an ejectable casing would keep the manufacturing difficulties down.

Considering you already have semi-automatic grenade launchers in SR, full-auto isn't that big a step.

Finally, all the "it would be unstable/unreliable" comments: Let's face it, the thing is horribly overpowered, at least on face value, and that triggers an automatic prejudice that makes people want to nerf it. I fully expect it to be banned by our GM, as I said before I listed the stats. But game balance is no reason to assume that skilled weapons designers couldn't put this thing together and make it work. It has some difficulties, but considering the shit you can build with the drone rules, this seems downright reasonable.

I consider this weapon to be much like a horribly uber-optimized character build: Interesting as an intellectual exercise, as and an example of just how far you can push the rules, but not seriously intended to be used in play.

That being said, I'll probably try to get a less-insane version built for our team, because an exploding monofilament bola launcher isn't really that much more outrageous than a panther cannon, and it's got more grit and style. It doesn't have to be gamebreaking to be fragging cool. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[masterofm]

Personally I think with the amount of money and time it would take to make something like that why not just give it to the player? It's like firing a drone at someone for crimminies sake each time you press the trigger. Personally I think what would kill you in the end is that using a gun like this in every single run will probably get you hunted down and killed. A custom made gun like this makes all kinds of warning signals go off when you use it constantly. Yeah sure you just blew the hell out of that one guy, but a bolo being used in this way just sets off huge alarm bells. It's also just not cost effective as a gun. Just using a grenade launcher and firing two grenades with an airburst will pretty much have the same effect, and if you just want to kill a single target two sniper rifle bullets to the head solves anyones problem.

Yeah go ahead and use an insanely over the top pricey weapon... but while your at it why not just shoot them with a sparrow hawk missile, or drop an iron bomb on your target. Both tip your hand just as much, but in the end it will probably kill a lot more people.

[Rad]

Exactly, there's a level of escalation involved that a shadowrunner just doesn't want--but with the amazing firepower of the Fragger, isn't it nice to know that you could? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Okay, I'll stop quoting credit card commercials now.

Seriously though, I could see someone holding on to this as their "nuclear option": a weapon of last resort that you absolutely don't wanna' use unless you're absolutely fragged anyway. It'd be great for the situation my group's in now, as it could take care of that inbound Mitsuhama strike team quite handily with proper use of chokepoints and guerrilla tactics. We already did wonders with chokepoints, white phosphorus grenades, and an orgy spell on the way in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smokin.gif)

All in all though, the "nuclear option" works better if you actually have nukes.

[Mäx]

I consider this weapon to be much like a horribly uber-optimized character build: Interesting as an intellectual exercise, as and an example of just how far you can push the rules, but not seriously intended to be used in play.

Then it would be good if you stayed inside the bounds of the rules, becouse as i pointed out that think isn't even allowed by the rules.

Off cource the fragger is little outside of the modding rules anyway and custom thinks don't have to adhere to those rules.

[Tarantula]

I would never allow a ML weapon base to change to drum. Period. Thus, you can't full auto it, since you can't have 10 rounds loaded.

Muzzle load is muzzle load for a reason.

[Isath]

The dual grenades... as they are supposed to wrap the wire around the target, they explode more or less in the same spot (at least on the same target, and that target is supposed to be mansized). They will also go off at the same time, as they are timed to arm at the same time. Having them explode seperately would mostly be of no use, as the explosion of the first will most probably do one of the following things: scatter the second grenade arcoss the area, shred it or blow it.

There may be no rules for two grenades going of at the same space and time, because they are usually not needed. However they will in no case simply add to each others damage. They will either be to seperate damage iterations, granting the the target two rolls against the damage (like with to seperate grenades) or you will simply get a small portion of the second grenades DV added to the first. That is how those things work in SR after all.

Multiple bulltes are two seperate DVs or DV+1, two fireballs are two seperate DVs and so on.

The demolition rules by the way are for things too be demolished. Logical and intelligent placement of multiple charges is a major point there. If you would take several minutes to properly apply microcharges to your target and then set them off, demolition rules may be taken into account (if insisted). For the use of your weapon, those rules do not aplly, even if they would, they'd make it even less viable, than it allready is.

The overall point is, that the SR rules do not support that waepon-build and neither does common sense. There is too much to adress there, to even further discuss it. As a ST I would have you do it again from scratch.

[Rad]

I love how people argue that it makes no common sense, and that the rules don't support it, while completely ignoring or dismissing the common sense rules application that I mentioned in the first post. Namely: The blasts in confined areas rules.

If my application of that doesn't make sense, I'd love to hear an actual explanation of why. Never mind all the other issues with the weapon, which I agree is ridiculous from a real-world standpoint, and at least semi-questionable within the internal logic of SR4.

A grenade goes off next to a wall, at point blank range, and doesn't destroy the barrier. In SR4, this means the shockwave rebounds, coming back onto the target from another direction, and adding it's DV to the initial blast's, before calculating it's effects on the target. Since it hasn't traveled a full meter yet, the reflected blast does the full DV of the grenade, combining with the initial blast to double the grenade's DV. If there are more rebounds, they also add their DV to the total.

Now, other than the source, what is the difference between a reflected shockwave striking the target at point-blank range, and shockwave from a second grenade overlapping in the same manner? I understand the real world physics differences, but what are the differences in shadowrun, from a game perspective? Offhand I'd say: Balance, because you can make a gun that creates that situation every time it fires, but I think some kind of shaped-charge warhead could reasonably be created that does the same thing.

Looking at the demolition rules again, I see that explosive damage is determined by rating times the square root of kilograms used. Not how I remembered it. That would provide a counter-precedent to reduce the combined damage of the two grenades.

Let's see, applying that kind of progression to grenades and assuming 1 kilo per grenade (which is probably ridiculous, especially for microgrenades, but since we don't know the rating of the explosives used or their weight it works okay as an abstract thing)...

...square root of 1 is one, so the damage code becomes the rating, square root of 2 is 1.414 and a whole lotta' decimals according to my calculator, multiplied by twelve for a frag grenade is:

Just shy of 17, certainly a lot less than the 24 you get from doubling the DV of a frag grenade, and probably a lot more reasonable from a balance perspective.

But I'd like to remind again that this weapon wasn't intended to be balanced--it was intended to be insane. It seems a lot of the complaints about common sense are really complaining about the game balance of the weapon, not it's principles or adherence to the rules. IMO, a distinction should be made between weapons that don't make sense, and weapons you would never let into your game because they are too powerful.

Moreover, this weapon was intended to be fun. I don't hear you grumbling naysayers having alot of fun with the idea of a fully automatic monofilament bola launcher using dual gecko gripped frag grenades singing Ride of the friggin' Valkyries as weights. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Me, I think it's hilarious.

[Tarantula]

The difference is that there is only one grenade for blasts in confined spaces. Not two. Even if someone threw 2 grenades, I'd resolve them individually, one right after the other. They wouldn't "blow" the other one off the person, but I'd resolve the damage as two seperate damages.

[Rad]

Yeah, I'm still not hearing a why, not a logical one anyway. "Because there's two" just doesn't cut it. There's effectively two blast waves interacting in both situations, the only difference is that the blasts originate from a different source, and that there's actually a slight (though almost negligible) delay with a reflected blast, while the dual blast of a fragger would hit simultaneously.

If anything, that seems like an argument for doubling the DV of fragger ammo and rolling reflected grenade blasts separately. What you've got to remember is that the two grenades are actually part of the same weapon in this case. Like lighting a bundle of dynamite, or rigging several bricks of C4 together, multiple discrete packages of explosives are combined into a single blast. More argument for using the explosive rules instead, I suppose.

I'm not opposed to restating a more sane version of the fragger for actual use, it's such a sweet concept it'd be nice to actually be able to use some version of the thing. But I'd like any nerfing to make sense. If you say: Because of game balance, then I could almost buy rolling both grenades separately, but again, there's the explosive rules and the blasts against barriers rules that counter this, and hand-wavium is a poor substitute for verisimilitude.

I think I'm going to go over the demolitions rules in Arsenal again, particularly the parts on rigging explosive traps.

If you think of fragger ammo as two charges with a monowire tripcord for a trigger, there may indeed be a core rules example.

[Tarantula]

Because, you are figuring out the damage for the grenade blast waves.

Blasts in a confined space is for 1 grenade. If you had 2 grenades, going off at the same time, in a small room, you'd do the blasts for a confined space for each grenade, because its an instant in time of when that grenade is going off. Much like how full auto isn't 10 different attack tests, as its one "hit" so, the extra bullets add to the dv (but not nearly as much as they would if taken individually). I'd say your fragger needs to either not add the full damage of the grenade (for the same reasons full auto doesn't add the full DV for each bullet) or the grenades need to be resolved seperately as if they were individual weapons.

Basepoint, I'd say go with grenade 1 + 1/2 DV of greande 2.

[Isath]

Indeed.

Further it makes no point to say, hey, do away with commonsense, because I want it to be insane - at least not when it comes to the different points of game balance, which commonsense is part of, while insanity is not.

But to line that up: It would not work that way, neither rule- nor commonsensewise and definatly not balance- or fun-wise. Have your fun with it, but I do not see any fun in there. We can talk again about the fun in that weapon, if the topic is another game, maybe like paranoia or a SR addon for munchkin.

No offense though, fun is highly subjective and a matter of preference.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Oh FFS.

Look, all grenades do double listed DV anyway, because Chunky Salsa applies from the floor. So there you go.

[Tarantula]

Oh FFS.

Look, all grenades do double listed DV anyway, because Chunky Salsa applies from the floor. So there you go.

Actually, in all the text, the book only discusses walls, never floors or ceilings.

[Delta56]

An idea on how the geko-bola-grenade would launch.

Think like a shotgun shell, or some kind of canister, with the inside coated with some material that Geko Tape and Grip don't stick to (I know there has to be something!). It fires out the launcher, and the sides pop off allowing the sticky bombs to become bolas.

I know it was mentioned that you could have a smartlink activate the geko grip after it left the launcher, and is a simple solution really. Just thought I'd give my two sense.

[The_Phoniex]

Just stopping by after a long sebaticle.. and wanted to comment

Back in third edition, we used to do the same thing, but with foci.. instead of just a bullet, make the bullet a foci with spells anchored and set to go off on impact. same shoot um once, get 2-3 damage tests out of it. also same prohibitive cost per round... Its just like spending thousands of nuyen on spirits to do a job that pays 500 nuyen.. I've seen it done... just because you can do stupid stuff with the rules does not mean that you should..

but the powergamer inside me giggled with glee when I saw that:)

4th edition might have enough rules to actually pick it back up and do something with it (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)