Full auto sniping, Whe your players are sniping goons at 500 meters+ with full auto guns Options

[Juca Bala]

Hi guys, recently we came to realization that, with the rules on auto-fire in shadowrun and, specially, with the recoil compensation rules in arsenal, there is no reason not to fire always in full auto with your guns, no matter the distance.
As much as we know that it is a cinematic game, we think that it sometimes can get a little out of hand. How do you do in your games? Allow characters to hit with long burst from far alway? Use some kind of house rule? We're tinkering with the following rules and we were unable, so far, to decide what to use, pick one:

1 - Recoil compensation works only up to Short Range, this way, at CQB range you unleash your auto guns fury but at long ranges you resort to short bursts and to semi-auto. Bipods and tripods works up to medium range so your tripod/bipod monted machine-guns are not useless.

2 - Longe range penalties are worsened by 1 for short bursts and by 2 for long and full bursts.

What do you guys think? Worth the trouble?

[toturi]

Full auto makes an awful lot of noise. It is not always feasible to have a clear field of vision, sometimes you just cannot see the target.

[sunnyside]

Most "real" weapons you'd be thinking of don't have recoil compensation. Which means that firing in full auto on top of range modifiers means you'd tend to miss. However weapons that are braced (say the gun on an Apache) are typically fired in full auto at ranged targets.

If you want a house rule I'd increase the recoil penalty at longer ranges.

However a big part of firing from a distance is them not knowing where you are for sure. Full auto kinda spoils that.

[Starmage21]

Full auto makes an awful lot of noise. It is not always feasible to have a clear field of vision, sometimes you just cannot see the target.

QFT

You also have the problem of ammo count.

You also look like more of a professional if the investigators arent announcing the finding of hundreds of shell casings the next morning on the news.

[Shiloh]

It's an interesting point. Long range sniping (IRL) is even affected adversely (some say) by the reciprocation of a semi-auto action, so the best sniper rifles are manual bolt-actions. Considering you can get an Ares Alpha cpmpensated enough to fire 6-shot bursts with no modifiers, either that's not a consideration any more, or there's room for a houserule making the effect of recoil greater at long range. You could consider making recoil modifiers multiplied by a factor depending on the range, so that compensation might mean a 3-round burst at medium isn't much incovenience, but at long range it's just not sensible.

[psychophipps]

And Shiloh has it in one. You can port the hell out of the weapon but the recoil action combined with the action slamming around in the weapon will make full-auto sniping impossible.

[DWC]

I'd chalk it up to the ease of locating the source of automatic weapons fire. Locating a shooter after one round is problematic. Locating him after a burst from a heavy machinegun is a lot easier. Once you've found him, you get to blanket his area with white phosphorous mortar rounds.

[Stahlseele]

i remember in SR3, i once made a character that somehow got to 10 points of recoil-compensation . . zoom in the eyes to get the range category from extreme to close and extreme range laser pointer with low-light for a TN# of 3 for shooting things up to Assault-Rifle-Range with 10 bullets in the head O.o
aimed shot and it really hurt most things out there quite fine, even without APDS or something like that . . and all that ouchies from a silenced weapon too! . . i don't know if i did that with an assault rifle or a light MG, as that's the highest you can go for silencer . .

[psychophipps]

I'd chalk it up to the ease of locating the source of automatic weapons fire. Locating a shooter after one round is problematic. Locating him after a burst from a heavy machinegun is a lot easier. Once you've found him, you get to blanket his area with white phosphorous mortar rounds.

Yeah, that's it. Just burn down a six block area of the city to get that one sniper. That'll go over real well with the legal department.
Then you can explain, as the officer in charge, exactly why little darling Suzy had to have her legs burned through with Willy Pete, and watch her brother burn from the inside out, to get one flathead with a machinegun where only the first 2-3 shots were worth a damn anyway.

Hmm... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

DOH!

[DWC]

Yeah, that's it. Just burn down a six block area of the city to get that one sniper. That'll go over real well with the legal department.
Then you can explain, as the officer in charge, exactly why little darling Suzy had to have her legs burned through with Willy Pete, and watch her brother burn from the inside out, to get one flathead with a machinegun where only the first 2-3 shots were worth a damn anyway.

Hmm... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

DOH!

Sniping was born as a battlefield art, where artillery reprisal was a valid option.

Obviously, in an urban environment where collateral damage is an issue, the lines of sight are also going to be a lot shorter, which means your chances of being spotted are a lot higher, and reprisal can come from other precision riflemen.

[Isath]

I do not see where a good sniper is in need of a full-auto firerate, in the first place.

[Stahlseele]

to defend himself from mre than one enemey

[CanRay]

If he's defending himself, then it's probably close-quarters combat. I'd suggest a SMG at that point. Small, light, full-auto, and doesn't weigh you down *THAT* much more with the Sniper.

[Stahlseele]

but this way you only need one weapon for close-quarter and sniping, less ammo to carry, less general clutter, cheaper etc.
it's basically what assault-rifles were made for, but usually the sniping does not happen at full auto but on single auto mode . . at maximum burst fire . .
but with shadowruns possibilities, why should one adhere to this tactic?
it came up because sniping on full auto is more or less impossible without mounting the rifle somewhere so it can't really recoil all that much O.o

[CanRay]

And that's where Drones come in. A heavily-braced drone with a full-auto weapon that uses caseless ammo and a rotating bolt... There you go!

[Juca Bala]

They don't need full auto sniper rifles, but, as they do exist in shadowrun and are simply better than no-auto ones, that house rules came in place...
And for being easy to locate, this is a issue sometimes but not always, where being simply unable to hit shit with full auto at sensible distances IS. Bombing the place isn't always an option, at least for the non-military shadowrunners out there.

[CanRay]

No, but dispatching a Rotodrone with a LMG is an option.

[Tarantula]

Personally, if they're good enough that they can reduce recoil to nothing, I'd let them snipe with it. Futuretech, and all the cyber needed for that, why not?

Especially if they've got it in a gyro-harness.

[CanRay]

Or another type of Gyrostabilizer.

IIRC, the Gyroharnes comes from Aliens, where, in the documention surrounding the movie, they talked about being freaked out that all the rounds of the Smartgun went through ONE BULLET HOLE when testing the equipment, and how they had to tone down the accuracy.

[ludomastro]

Are you aware that the US military has a semi-automatic sniper rifle with approximately double the fire rate of a bolt action with no measureable loss in accuracy at "standard" range?

[CanRay]

Note that: "Standard".

For TRUE accuracy, and I'm talking BEYOND standard here, you need a Bolt Action.

There's a reason the World Record Holder for Longest-Ranged Confirmed Kill used a Bolt and not a Semi.

[Juca Bala]

Well, I think that some kind of penaltie must exist, even with all the recoil compensators, if not for balance reasons. And, as far as I know, gas vent is a technology that already exists today (maybe in rudimentary form on AK-97+ rifles and stuff) and we don't see they losing all they recoil.
Weapons pods, turrets and on tripod should not be affected (or be affected by a lesser degree) by these problems.

[CanRay]

And, as far as I know, gas vent is a technology that already exists today (maybe in rudimentary form on AK-97+ rifles and stuff) and we don't see they losing all they recoil.

It's been around longer than that. Early Thompson M1921 SMGs had Gas Vent Compensators on their barrels.

It's a very simple technology.

[Tarantula]

Note that: "Standard".

For TRUE accuracy, and I'm talking BEYOND standard here, you need a Bolt Action.

There's a reason the World Record Holder for Longest-Ranged Confirmed Kill used a Bolt and not a Semi.

FYI, its Rob Furlong with the world record. (Another note you didn't point out, he took 3 shots. One missed, one hit the guys knapsack, and the last killed.)

Of course, the guy (Carlos Hathcock) who held the record before him, (short by 144m) made his record with a browning m2 .50 bmg machine gun with a scope on it. And that record held for 35 years. I don't think your point holds much weight.

[Caine Hazen]

A lot will do with the GM.. I'd be fulling willing to let the sniper do a "Called Shot" to bypass armor on their target, but no way in hell the machine gunner is going to get that from me. I think even with max recoil comp too, that the sniper is almost always going to get the better damage output... someone else can do that math though.