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Phaeton
post Dec 26 2003, 02:07 AM
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I saw the discussion on the Dealing With Low Body thread, and so I decided to make this.

I don't really know what to say, so I'll let you all start. 8)

P.S.: Sorry for being unable to think of anything to say... :D :dead:
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Munchkinslayer
post Dec 26 2003, 02:11 AM
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You mean "don't die for your country. Make your enemie die for his"? Or do you want Chalemagne tactics and Sun Tzu quotes?
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Phaeton
post Dec 26 2003, 02:28 AM
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QUOTE (Munchkinslayer)
You mean "don't die for your country. Make your enemie die for his"? Or do you want Chalemagne tactics and Sun Tzu quotes?

...Err, I was generally hoping for practical discussion on what is a good idea and what is a bad idea for a Shadowrunning team in the middle of a fight...But either of those two things will work as well.

*confused. eh. aw well.* :D
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Phaeton
post Dec 26 2003, 02:33 AM
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Well, I had some interesting ideas for my sam/bike rigger. :D

Fun with grapple guns mounted on hardpoints:

1. Attach yourself to people's rear bumpers. Basically "skitch".
2. Grab pedestrians (or targets) and drive around slamming them into stuff.
3. Use monowire instead of grapple line and lariat them.

THOSE are what I call tactics. :D

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FlakJacket
post Dec 26 2003, 02:57 AM
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Pretty much my stock answer for whenever this question comes up - hey if it works, why change it? - so I'll point you to these two articles, Small Unit Tactics Part 1 and Small Unit Tactics Part 2 since they have some good ideas and cover the basics. Enjoy. :)
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Phaeton
post Dec 26 2003, 03:06 AM
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QUOTE (FlakJacket)
Pretty much my stock answer for whenever this question comes up - hey if it works, why change it? - so I'll point you to these two articles, Small Unit Tactics Part 1 and Small Unit Tactics Part 2 since they have some good ideas and cover the basics. Enjoy. :)

AH! Much thanks, probably more than I can convey! :D
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toturi
post Dec 26 2003, 03:47 AM
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QUOTE (FlakJacket)
Pretty much my stock answer for whenever this question comes up - hey if it works, why change it? - so I'll point you to these two articles, Small Unit Tactics Part 1 and Small Unit Tactics Part 2 since they have some good ideas and cover the basics. Enjoy. :)

I'll tell you what's wrong with the 1st article. Most of my firefights last less than 2 Combat Rounds, usually no more than 3 initiative passes.

The article assumes that the goons have more intel than the runners. He broke a rule of combat: Thou shalt NEVER assume. Assuming that you as security manager knows all about the runners which is not true, the GM knows, but the security manager isn't neccesarily the GM(he's usually the AGM in my games).
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mfb
post Dec 26 2003, 04:19 AM
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here's a nugget of wisdom. if you're covered by invisibility, and your teammates are getting chewed up by the opposition, fire your goddamn gun at something.
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Munchkinslayer
post Dec 26 2003, 05:25 AM
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QUOTE (toturi)
The article assumes that the goons have more intel than the runners. He broke a rule of combat: Thou shalt NEVER assume.

ALWAYS assume the badguys have all the intel they need. Underestimating the enemy falls under the heading of "things I will not do today."
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toturi
post Dec 26 2003, 06:15 AM
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Over-estimating my enemy means I won't go on a run today.

Death on the run or death by starvation. Your choice, omae.
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Squire
post Dec 26 2003, 06:25 AM
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It's pathetics that it has to even be brought up, but so many people just don't get it.

If you're not being paid to make a mess, don't make one.

The less signs of your passage you leave, the less the follow-up investigators have to go on. The fewer bodies you leave in your wake, the less public attention you draw, the less property you damage all mean less motivation for your victims to come after you.

Dead men do tell tales, it's called forensic science.
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Cain
post Dec 26 2003, 06:30 AM
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Good idea: Hiding behind cover.
Bad idea: Using fuel cans as cover.

Good idea: Reading the CLUE files.
Bad idea: Being in a CLUE file.

Good idea: Using the troll as a bullet shield.
Bad idea: Using the otaku as a bullet shield.

Good idea: Throwing grenades.
Bad idea: Throwing the pin.
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Tiralee
post Dec 26 2003, 06:31 AM
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Had a recent blast with the whole "Toy and gismo" department.

Get a decent SMG, HK series for preference.
Attach a grapple gun (Under).
Re-inact batman.

Or in the "Ouch, nasty" scheme of things -

Give modified gun to Troll. Use troll to open doors from 100 m away.
Then watch as the people behind the door realise that the modified gun is actually a grenade launcher.
Invoke "chunky salsa effect" and wade through after.

But that's becasue I'm a "Bastard DM" TM.


L;
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toturi
post Dec 26 2003, 06:38 AM
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QUOTE (Squire)
Dead men do tell tales, it's called forensic science.

That's why you get Forensics skill of your own. To teach dead men to lie. :)
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Frag-o Delux
post Dec 26 2003, 06:52 AM
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Tactical Edge. If you can get your hands on this book it can change the way runs are forever ran in your game. My brother had an oppurtunity to acquire this and many of the other training manules the local law enforcement officers use for training.

This book covers everything the officer does from the second he gets the call to when he aprehneds a perp, to if the need swat is needed.

In another volume they cover SWAT tactics.

In the first book it also covers negotiations, which is a real eye opener to any one who thinks they one day get caught up in a situation like that.

It even shows the ways many perps have tried to take up police, so they know how to look for the attempts. Like when an officer has the perp with his hands on the hood of the car and the perp has hi legs spread out bacwards, the officer would stradle one of the perps legs and begin to frisk him. The perp would purposely outstrentch himself as far as he could so when the officer would frisk him, the perp could drop prone wrap his legs around one of the officers legs and roll over throwing the officer to the ground were the perp could then get on top of the police officer.

Also most people don't know that (a cop friend showe this to me) a police officers gun is held in a special holster, that if the person trying to pull the gun is not in the right angel the gun will not come out. SUre the gun will eventually come out with enough wrestling but it will be a lot harder then just yanking out of a cops holster, so I would not try that option as a runner if you want to take a cops gun.

And a little piece of advice I learned back in my youthful days, A cop is only doing his job, it is your ass that is on the line. Meaning if you are in suffiecent enough trouble that running is the only option do as much crazy stuff as you feel you can get away with. I have done some amazingly stupid stuff to avoid being caught, that no cop in his right mind would do just to catch some stupid kids that he will probably catch another day.

Oh and in a bad situation that involves you driving, if shots are fired or you feel you are about to fired upon remember this, Shut up and duck, let the parked cars guide your way. A good piece of advice that came in handy on a few occasions.

And grandma's house makes a great alibia if you have a drunk uncle who hates the "man" living in her basement.
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Phaeton
post Dec 26 2003, 08:36 AM
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QUOTE (Cain)
Good idea: Hiding behind cover.
Bad idea: Using fuel cans as cover.

Good idea: Reading the CLUE files.
Bad idea: Being in a CLUE file.

Good idea: Using the troll as a bullet shield.
Bad idea: Using the otaku as a bullet shield.

Good idea: Throwing grenades.
Bad idea: Throwing the pin.

*just finished reading the CLUE files*

:rotfl:!!!!!!!!1111111oneoen
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Siege
post Dec 26 2003, 03:05 PM
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Weapon retention holsters. Nifty things.

If you want to get a better feel for how you're kitting out your runner, surf military/police supply stores online.

I still love the thigh-medical kit rig.

-Siege
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Munchkinslayer
post Dec 26 2003, 05:32 PM
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QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
Tactical Edge. If you can get your hands on this book it can change the way runs are forever ran in your game.

Amazon's got it for $38.00. "Out of print. Limited availability." They've got some others that look good too. They came up when I searched for "Tactical Edge."
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Diesel
post Dec 26 2003, 06:03 PM
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If anyone is interested, there are plenty of Army Field Manuals covering things like effective weapons tactics, room clearing scenarios, and urban combat at a squad level. They're pretty good for this sort of thing. Give me an hour, they'll be up.
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Diesel
post Dec 26 2003, 06:14 PM
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MOUT (Urban Combat) - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...m/90-10/toc.htm
More MOUT (better one, IMO) - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...0-1/default.htm
Riot tactics - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...m/19-15/toc.htm
Camo, if you want to get all hardcore - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...fm/20-3/toc.htm
Soldier Skills - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...m/21-75/toc.htm

That's all for now folks, there are a lot more at http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...policy/army/fm/
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Enjoy!
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Diesel
post Dec 26 2003, 06:18 PM
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MOUT (Urban Combat) - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...m/90-10/toc.htm
More MOUT (better one, IMO) - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...0-1/default.htm
Riot tactics - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...m/19-15/toc.htm
Camo, if you want to get all hardcore - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...fm/20-3/toc.htm
Soldier Skills - http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...m/21-75/toc.htm

That's all for now folks, there are a lot more at http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...policy/army/fm/
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Enjoy!
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Diesel
post Dec 28 2003, 07:22 AM
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Wow I killed this one!
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Phaeton
post Dec 28 2003, 08:05 AM
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Nah. Thanks to my lack of how to make a good post, it was a short-lived thread to begin with.
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Siege
post Dec 28 2003, 11:12 AM
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We could start discussing the tactical blunders of tLotR. :grinbig:

-Siege
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Sigfried McWild
post Dec 28 2003, 04:17 PM
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of course all this is only useful as long as both players and gms use it.

If it's only the gm the campaign will involve a lot of short lived characters.
If it's only the players there will be tons of crying gms asking for help in dealing with "munchkins".

More interesting than the actual real life tactics, would be how do you adapt them to SR rules . Also how useful are things like granades, delaied action , suppressive fire etc. in game?
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Phaeton
post Dec 28 2003, 04:44 PM
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QUOTE (Sigfried McWild)
of course all this is only useful as long as both players and gms use it.

If it's only the gm the campaign will involve a lot of short lived characters.
If it's only the players there will be tons of crying gms asking for help in dealing with "munchkins".

More interesting than the actual real life tactics, would be how do you adapt them to SR rules . Also how useful are things like granades, delaied action , suppressive fire etc. in game?

And also drones, magic, astral scouting, guncams, etc...
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Phaeton
post Dec 28 2003, 04:45 PM
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QUOTE (Siege)
We could start discussing the tactical blunders of tLotR. :grinbig:

-Siege

Oh, doooooooo tell!... :rotfl:
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Siege
post Dec 28 2003, 05:12 PM
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QUOTE (Phaeton)
QUOTE (Siege @ Dec 28 2003, 06:12 AM)
We could start discussing the tactical blunders of tLotR. :grinbig:

-Siege

Oh, doooooooo tell!... :rotfl:

1. If the enemy is attempting to land forces by boat, please just shoot them in the water. Don't wait until the boats start to unload troops. That's called a foothold and allowing the enemy to gain one is a bad idea.

Especially since non-name humans in nearly full plate get slaughtered against goblinoids in melee combat.

2. Cavalry charges against set pike is a bad idea. Even if you can convince the horses to commit suicide charges, it's going to be _really_ messy trying to break that formation.

3. As dramatic as it looks, why for frag's sake do you allow thousands of goblinoids to slowly flank and encircle your numerically inferior forces? Obviously, the goblinoids didn't read the script or get the memo.

4. People at the front of a charging mob tend to get crushed when they run headlong into another mob. Unless they are the newly Crowned King.

5. Who knew? Elowen carried Luke's lightsaber when she cut down the AT-AT walkers from horseback. Funny though, I thought her co-pilot got crushed underfoot...sorry, mixing movies.

-Siege

Consider these as "Things not to do in your SR campaign", especially from horse (motorcycle) back. :grinbig:
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Sigfried McWild
post Dec 28 2003, 05:22 PM
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QUOTE (Siege)
2. Cavalry charges against set pike is a bad idea. Even if you can convince the horses to commit suicide charges, it's going to be _really_ messy trying to break that formation.

You forget they had the uberleet flashlight to shine into the face of the orcs to make them raise their pikes. :grinbig:

And don't forget the ninja elf skateboarder.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Dec 28 2003, 05:37 PM
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In LotR II, the Uruk-Hai in front of Helm's Deep were supposedly blinded by the light, like Sigfried mentioned. In LotR III, the combined forces on the fields of Pelennor were supposedly unorganized and, just before the cavalry charged into them, scared shitless.

True enough, charging right into pike formations is an extremely bad idea. But, as stupid as it sounds, I must admit that I thought the rohirrim charge in Pelennor looked really damn cool, both times I saw the film.

As for the actual topic, well, I'm with Diesel on this one. :)
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Zazen
post Dec 28 2003, 05:56 PM
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The flaw in all of that tactical advice is that principle characters in a movie like that are invincible unless dictated by the plot. Therefore a good general always puts his principle characters up front where they can take the greatest advantage of their invincibility. Especially when Superninja Elf Dude and Horse-Rigger Elephantslayerwoman are involved.

Besides, who needs tactics when the Scrubbing Bubbles ghost army hits the battlefield and cleanses it of the enemy like so much soap scum? :S
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Phaeton
post Dec 28 2003, 06:16 PM
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QUOTE (Siege)
QUOTE (Phaeton @ Dec 28 2003, 04:45 PM)
QUOTE (Siege @ Dec 28 2003, 06:12 AM)
We could start discussing the tactical blunders of tLotR. :grinbig:

-Siege

Oh, doooooooo tell!... :rotfl:

1. If the enemy is attempting to land forces by boat, please just shoot them in the water. Don't wait until the boats start to unload troops. That's called a foothold and allowing the enemy to gain one is a bad idea.

Especially since non-name humans in nearly full plate get slaughtered against goblinoids in melee combat.

2. Cavalry charges against set pike is a bad idea. Even if you can convince the horses to commit suicide charges, it's going to be _really_ messy trying to break that formation.

3. As dramatic as it looks, why for frag's sake do you allow thousands of goblinoids to slowly flank and encircle your numerically inferior forces? Obviously, the goblinoids didn't read the script or get the memo.

4. People at the front of a charging mob tend to get crushed when they run headlong into another mob. Unless they are the newly Crowned King.

5. Who knew? Elowen carried Luke's lightsaber when she cut down the AT-AT walkers from horseback. Funny though, I thought her co-pilot got crushed underfoot...sorry, mixing movies.

-Siege

Consider these as "Things not to do in your SR campaign", especially from horse (motorcycle) back. :grinbig:

Hmmm...Useful. Especially seeing as how my rigger specializes in bikes. 600 mph, invisible bikes, at that. :rotfl:
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Siege
post Dec 28 2003, 08:04 PM
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I'm not gonna cry foul on the ninja-elf just because I was laughing my fragging ass off the whole time during that exchange.

After the horse stunt in LotR 2, I wasn't sure how the hell they were gonna top it, but the elephant trick was neat.

Of course, I'll forgive all the missed snappy comebacks of Gimli's at Helm's Deep for his one line after the skateboarding trick. :grinbig:

-Siege
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Kurukami
post Dec 28 2003, 08:59 PM
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Need we add the bit about "if you have a shield on your saddlebow and archers are shooting at you, for frag's sake pull on the shield and block some of those incoming arrows!"

Warhorses are trained to be controlled with just the legs, after all. How else do you think knights went jousting with shield and lance?

Feh...
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Sigfried McWild
post Dec 28 2003, 09:36 PM
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I'm pretty sure there was a hook for the reins somewhere on plate armours, I'm not sure if it was just to keep them out of the way or if it had some control purposes too.

This thread is hopelessly out of topic
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Phaeton
post Dec 28 2003, 09:44 PM
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QUOTE (Sigfried McWild)
I'm pretty sure there was a hook for the reins somewhere on plate armours, I'm not sure if it was just to keep them out of the way or if it had some control purposes too.

This thread is hopelessly out of topic

Not really. A) threads naturally drift some. And B) we're still on effective tactics. Just LOTR tactics. :grinbig:
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Moonstone Spider
post Dec 28 2003, 11:16 PM
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While this is an extremely cheap tactic, if you're a rigger get a VCR 3, a Reaction Booster 6 (Need some alphaware for essence purposes here) and never ever learn any vehicle skills. You'll be rollin 18 die on every vehicle test when rigging and with a VCR 3 the TN penalty for defaulting to reaction is actually -1.

Then if you've got a magical friend along for the run get him to sustain "Improve Cybered Reaction" on you and get anywhere from 2 to 6 more die, not to mention the ungodly initiative you'll have.

But do get gunnery so you can use combat pool with weapons fire, all the reaction in the world doesn't help with firing weapons.

That's probably my biggest gripe with Shadowrun. Defaulting can frequently give you better odds of success than actually having a skill in some situations, particularly when your stats are high, such as Trolls with Athletics tests.
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Cain
post Dec 28 2003, 11:43 PM
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Unfortunately, your control pool is only modified by the VCR increases, and not from anything else. Nice try, though.
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Ol' Scratch
post Dec 28 2003, 11:46 PM
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Defaulting has nothing to do with your Control Pool. It's Reaction (base 6 +6 from VCR +6 from Reaction Enhancers = 18). The only thing in question is whether or not the Reaction Enhancers work while piloting a vehicle via a VCR, and I don't think they do.
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toturi
post Dec 29 2003, 12:50 AM
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You want good LOTR tactics? Go play some Medieval Total War.

If you want to take down Pikeman, for God's sakes, use your swordsmen. If I tried to charge a Swiss Armoured Pikemen formation with calvary, I would have been laughed off the Ladder Matches. Until the time I charged those pesky SAPs with Spanish Lancers from the flank and wiped out half my opponents army. :rotfl: Then he got laughed off the Ladder after I posted the replay.
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Fix-it
post Dec 29 2003, 02:01 AM
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Tactical errors of tLOTR. Backstabbing the elves. 'nuff said.

Stupid human's fault it had to go on longer.
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Siege
post Dec 29 2003, 02:08 AM
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QUOTE (Fix-it)
Tactical errors of tLOTR. Backstabbing the elves. 'nuff said.

Stupid human's fault it had to go on longer.

Stupid elf didn't kill the silly, unarmed human and dump him in the lava along with the bloody ring. :grinbig:

-Siege
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Sammiel
post Dec 29 2003, 05:52 AM
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well, when it comes to combat, most of the ones I have been in have been outdoors. Not necessarily in the wilderness, but the really good ones were in a junkyard, and at a dock at night.

In both of those situations were were pretty heavily outmatched, in the junkyard by the power of the opposition, and at the docks, we were outnumbered about 4:1. Both situations we came out without casualties because we had a reasonably solid engagement plan, and we were careful.

The biggest thing was preparation beforehand. In the situation at the junkyard, I was able to kill one of the most dangerous members of the enemy team to initiate the fight because we had scouted the junkyard prior, and I had planted like 2kgs of c-12 at the spot that I figured someone would hide, right under the crane. The crane falling occupied another member of that team for 2 full rounds, which allowed us to stumble through the rest of the fight, which ended with me, in a full out sprint away from a free earth elemental whose movement power reduced my speed to precisely the same speed at which he moved, allowing me to exactly retain my 5 meter or so lead on him.

The docks situation, we had the advantage of range, and our enemies being entirely unaware we were there, so we were able to initiate the fight by taking out 4-6 of the more dangerous goons by judicious use of the Simple Action:Aim to mitigate the darkness penalties.


So, this sort of derailed a touch into me yammering about old war stories, so I'll wrap it up with a couple principles of mine.

1: Avoid combat in close quarters

My number one rule, most of my characters involve at least some amount of range in whatever form they use to make the opfor less alive, close range mitigates alot of the advantage the cyber-dude has over the normal thug. Sure, you may only need 2s to hit him at close range, but he probably only needs 4s, 3s if you are standing still.

2: Know all of the combat rules, free, simple and complex actions, and especially know all of the modifiers, or make a little 3x5 with them on it.

Alot of the ranged combat modifiers never see the light of day, and while they can certainly hurt you, you can frequently put them to use. Need to make a getaway while being shot at? Don't forget when you become a running target, your opponents have a +2 to shoot at you. If your gm gets savvy to aiming, then dive behind cover. If you get behind full cover, their actions are wasted, and if you get behind partial cover, its at least another +2 to help mitigate that aiming. Also, don't forget that natural vision is superior to cybered, so remember that before you get a full cybereye package. In full darkness, admittedly rare, natural thermo is only a +2, cyber is +4, and anything else is +8. In the more common minimal light, its still 2 better than cybered. PhysAd gunbunnies especially take note, cause when you buy them as a power, they count as being natural, not cybered.

3: Combat Pool is your friend, conserve it when you have to, but toss it like birdseed when the opportunity presents itself.

My favorite character is the sharpshooter type, who, when given a sport rifle, generally rolls alot of dice against an opponent who is at a severe disadvantage of target numbers. Generally, I never engage unless i'm in partial cover, which means while I may need 4s, he needs 8s. This means that theres a reasonable chance he won't even hit me, which means all of my combat pool can go towards making him dead. I also tend to favor the combat pool stats, so I often have a little bit to spare after making a shot of doom, which helps if you get tagged with 1 or 2 successes

4: Keep it simple stupid!

Optional rules are the devil! Suppressive fire may be cool and handy in alot of situations, but remember, every option you have, npcs have too.

5: Keep it subtle stupid!

Don't blow every modifier and rule and whatnot every time you think of it. If you drag every combat into a multi-hour exercise in Small Unit Tactics, you are going to piss off your gm. He is either gonna start throwing tougher and tougher npcs at you, or he is going to dive headfirst into bogging the game down with you. Either way, its bad juju.

Thats all for now.
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Diesel
post Dec 29 2003, 06:29 AM
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I stand corrected. Although I think it should be my way.
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Sigfried McWild
post Dec 29 2003, 01:38 PM
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QUOTE (Sammiel @ Dec 29 2003, 07:52 AM)
Also, don't forget that natural vision is superior to cybered, so remember that before you get a full cybereye package.  In full darkness, admittedly rare, natural thermo is only a +2, cyber is +4, and anything else is +8.  In the more common minimal light, its still 2 better than cybered.  PhysAd gunbunnies especially take note, cause when you buy them as a power, they count as being natural, not cybered.

Cyber eyes with lowlight and eye lights. Never fear darkness again (every single character of mine had these since I read this CLUE file).
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Frag-o Delux
post Dec 29 2003, 02:00 PM
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QUOTE (Sigfried McWild @ Dec 29 2003, 09:38 AM)
QUOTE (Sammiel @ Dec 29 2003, 07:52 AM)
Also, don't forget that natural vision is superior to cybered, so remember that before you get a full cybereye package.  In full darkness, admittedly rare, natural thermo is only a +2, cyber is +4, and anything else is +8.  In the more common minimal light, its still 2 better than cybered.  PhysAd gunbunnies especially take note, cause when you buy them as a power, they count as being natural, not cybered.

Cyber eyes with lowlight and eye lights. Never fear darkness again (every single character of mine had these since I read this CLUE file).

What happens when you look into something reflective? Wouldn't you blind yourself? SpecOps and other groups have a little LED (green usually) that attaches to the goggles that emits enough lght for the low-light goggles to amplify, but not enough to blind you or give away your position. They also make a little LED that attaches to your finger so you can aim your finger at maps or papers so your goggles amp the image so you can read it.

I just find having low-light goggles and a flash light attached to then a little silly and possibly a danger to your health.
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Siege
post Dec 29 2003, 02:25 PM
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"Cat's Eyes" -- they're tiny little safety glow sticks. Snap them and they emit a tiny glow, just enough to trigger night goggles (or so I'm told).

And every runner should carry a trauma patch and a flashlight on general principles. :grinbig:

And two kilos of c-12? :eek:

Dude, that would have created such a massive explosion, the rest of the junkyard would have turned into shrapnel, never mind killing the crane.

-Siege
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Zazen
post Dec 29 2003, 02:49 PM
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QUOTE (Siege)
And two kilos of c-12? :eek:

Dude, that would have created such a massive explosion, the rest of the junkyard would have turned into shrapnel, never mind killing the crane.

Unless you were 2 meters away, in which case it would've gently caressed you with a warm, sweet-smelling breeze ;)
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Frag-o Delux
post Dec 29 2003, 03:10 PM
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I usually carry duct tape, det-cord, some thermite and my trusty Narcoject pistol.

And on the catseyes thing. That might be a new product that I am unaware of, but I know for a fact they have a LED device that uses watch batteries. Either wat I like those ideas a lot better then a flash light that could get aimed back at me and blind me at a very inopperitune moment. Murphys law demands that it will also.
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Sigfried McWild
post Dec 29 2003, 05:49 PM
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QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
QUOTE (Sigfried McWild @ Dec 29 2003, 09:38 AM)
QUOTE (Sammiel @ Dec 29 2003, 07:52 AM)
Also, don't forget that natural vision is superior to cybered, so remember that before you get a full cybereye package.  In full darkness, admittedly rare, natural thermo is only a +2, cyber is +4, and anything else is +8.  In the more common minimal light, its still 2 better than cybered.  PhysAd gunbunnies especially take note, cause when you buy them as a power, they count as being natural, not cybered.

Cyber eyes with lowlight and eye lights. Never fear darkness again (every single character of mine had these since I read this CLUE file).

What happens when you look into something reflective? Wouldn't you blind yourself? SpecOps and other groups have a little LED (green usually) that attaches to the goggles that emits enough lght for the low-light goggles to amplify, but not enough to blind you or give away your position. They also make a little LED that attaches to your finger so you can aim your finger at maps or papers so your goggles amp the image so you can read it.

I just find having low-light goggles and a flash light attached to then a little silly and possibly a danger to your health.

I'm pretty sure the eye light implants are desinged just for this kind of use and anyway that's what the anti flashbang implant is for (can't rember the name).
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Siege
post Dec 29 2003, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE (Zazen @ Dec 29 2003, 02:49 PM)
QUOTE (Siege @ Dec 29 2003, 09:25 AM)
And two kilos of c-12?  :eek:

Dude, that would have created such a massive explosion, the rest of the junkyard would have turned into shrapnel, never mind killing the crane.

Unless you were 2 meters away, in which case it would've gently caressed you with a warm, sweet-smelling breeze ;)

Two meters is roughly six feet.

Look at video samples of the explosive content of just a couple ounces of C-4, never mind kilograms.

Now, crank that up to kilograms of C-12.

Two meters ain't gonna cut it. Unless it's two meters of battleship steel.

-Siege

Edit: Although I realize the SR mechanics regarding explosives is a little limited and I'm freaking over real life scenarios, but still...:grinbig:
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Austere Emancipa...
post Dec 29 2003, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE
Two meters ain't gonna cut it.

In Real Life, you're absolutely correct. In English SR canon, you're wrong. The rules are quite clear on that. 2 meters away, 2kg of C12 do not do a god damn thing. Zero damage. In Real Life, standing 2 meters away from 2kg of C4 would fuck you up, bad. Though 1.9 meters and 10cm of steel would still protect you from everything except the sound, unless the steel wall toppled on you.

In my games, standing 2m away from 2kg of straight C-12 on open ground gets you 11D+1.

[Edit]Damn, you edited first. :([/Edit]

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Dec 29 2003, 05:58 PM
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Frag-o Delux
post Dec 29 2003, 06:58 PM
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QUOTE (Sigfried McWild)
QUOTE (Frag-o Delux @ Dec 29 2003, 04:00 PM)
QUOTE (Sigfried McWild @ Dec 29 2003, 09:38 AM)
QUOTE (Sammiel @ Dec 29 2003, 07:52 AM)
Also, don't forget that natural vision is superior to cybered, so remember that before you get a full cybereye package.  In full darkness, admittedly rare, natural thermo is only a +2, cyber is +4, and anything else is +8.  In the more common minimal light, its still 2 better than cybered.  PhysAd gunbunnies especially take note, cause when you buy them as a power, they count as being natural, not cybered.

Cyber eyes with lowlight and eye lights. Never fear darkness again (every single character of mine had these since I read this CLUE file).

What happens when you look into something reflective? Wouldn't you blind yourself? SpecOps and other groups have a little LED (green usually) that attaches to the goggles that emits enough lght for the low-light goggles to amplify, but not enough to blind you or give away your position. They also make a little LED that attaches to your finger so you can aim your finger at maps or papers so your goggles amp the image so you can read it.

I just find having low-light goggles and a flash light attached to then a little silly and possibly a danger to your health.

I'm pretty sure the eye light implants are desinged just for this kind of use and anyway that's what the anti flashbang implant is for (can't rember the name).

Flare compensation.

True it could be built that way(you could also assume low light goggles have flare comp built in them the makers of the tech know the draw backs to them also) but it would take all the fun out of it. But I would still rather have a little LED than look like a cartoon character in the dark. :D
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Austere Emancipa...
post Dec 29 2003, 07:06 PM
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Frankly, I think a little LED is pretty fricken hazardous already. In the Finnish Defense Forces, we were warned not to turn NODs on until they were firmly placed over your eyes so that not one bit of light would be reflected off your face and be visible to anyone else. In near-pitch black, the tiniest little LED is bad.

An extremely faint IR-light, for use in complete dark only, might be a good idea. The guys in my group only turn their Eye-Light systems on when the enemy already knows where they are or when it doesn't matter if people know where they are.
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Sahandrian
post Dec 29 2003, 07:13 PM
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Aren't eye-lights polarized anyway?
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Austere Emancipa...
post Dec 29 2003, 07:15 PM
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They'll still be reflected all over the place. You can't spot the source of the eyelights very easily, but you can see what they are looking at, unless every surface is a near-perfect mirror. And if there's smoke or fog in the air, the guy with eye-lights is immediately spotted.
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Sigfried McWild
post Dec 29 2003, 07:17 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
Frankly, I think a little LED is pretty fricken hazardous already. In the Finnish Defense Forces, we were warned not to turn NODs on until they were firmly placed over your eyes so that not one bit of light would be reflected off your face and be visible to anyone else. In near-pitch black, the tiniest little LED is bad.

An extremely faint IR-light, for use in complete dark only, might be a good idea. The guys in my group only turn their Eye-Light systems on when the enemy already knows where they are or when it doesn't matter if people know where they are.

Yeah, I guess that while the eye-light with low-light vision would reduce darkness penalties by some amounts (don't have books with me) for the character using them but anyone else would have no (or maybe very little) penalties when shooting the character.
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Frag-o Delux
post Dec 29 2003, 07:19 PM
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I always thought the LED were for near perfect dark other wise you would just use the ambient light, you wouldn't need another light source.
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Sigfried McWild
post Dec 29 2003, 07:26 PM
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Yes, but unless you are underground or in a room with no windows, perfect darkenss is quite hard to find. Having any source of light on you it's the equivalent of putting on a hawaian shirt with a target painted on in normal light.

And even in perfect darkness it's a lot better if you can get the enemy to turn on their lights first.

[edit]
Actually I think I'd rule that a shot to a light in the darkness would be counted as a called shot to whatever part of the body is holding the light (called shot to the head for eye-lights for example). The shot would incur in a +4 TN (called shot) but no darkness modifiers and possibly a -1/2 for a contrasting target and then apply all the effects of a called shot.
[/edit]

This post has been edited by Sigfried McWild: Dec 29 2003, 07:33 PM
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Austere Emancipa...
post Dec 29 2003, 07:26 PM
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QUOTE (Frag-o Delux)
I always thought the LED were for near perfect dark other wise you would just use the ambient light, you wouldn't need another light source.

Certainly. But in near perfect dark, that little LED is spotted even easier. :)

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Dec 29 2003, 07:27 PM
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Frag-o Delux
post Dec 29 2003, 07:43 PM
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I didn't make the device, I just saw it in the catalouge. :D I believe in the first cybertech book they showed a guy with the eye-lights and it looked like he had car head lights in his head, so I never gave them a second look. I just read the new versions and they sound a lot more appealing.
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Sammiel
post Dec 29 2003, 08:10 PM
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QUOTE (Zazen @ Dec 29 2003, 02:49 PM)
Unless you were 2 meters away, in which case it would've gently caressed you with a warm, sweet-smelling breeze

:rotfl: :grinbig: :D

Precisely. =)

Now, while I will quickly accept the fact that the SR rules for explosions have no basis in reality, I am bound by them when I use explosives. I was a it more than 2 meters away, but still close enough that I probably would have been injured/killed by the debris irl.
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Frag-o Delux
post Dec 29 2003, 08:18 PM
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We use the fudge method with expolsives. If you should be a smear on the street you best bet you will be. That is for the kids who use explosives to much and try to loophole their way around somethig.
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Diesel
post Dec 29 2003, 10:48 PM
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Copy that, Frag-O.

If you're not prone and a ways away, kiss your ass goodbye.
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Frag-o Delux
post Dec 29 2003, 11:29 PM
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We had a guy try doing the 2 meter thing. I had to walk through several apartment buildings to find his weapon foci, which I promptly sold to his Oyabon (been a while i can't remember how to spell that word) for a tidy profit. The oyabon didn't like him much either. I kept his titanium watch that I dug out of a homeless dude standing down the street. :) We are pretty lenient with the explosive thing but sometimes close is just to close. He, well was way to F***ing close.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Dec 29 2003, 11:39 PM
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You shouldn't exaggerate the effects of undirected explosives either, especially not when they are just sitting on open ground. 2kg of C-12 certainly is a big deal -- after all, the rules would have us believe that is the equivalent of 32kg of Commercial Explosives, and being 2 meters away from that might indeed rip you into chunks.

However, standing 2 meters away from 2kg of Commercial Explosives on open ground probably wouldn't -- you'd be mangled and burned for sure (about Deadly, perhaps a bit of overdamage), but you wouldn't be ripped into pieces.

My players just have never used any explosive charge (apart from grenades, rockets and the like) which weighed less than 10kg, and even that is always C-12. So they've never used an explosive charge that has done less than 36D+4. Being 2 meters away from that wouldn't save you even by canon... Anything more than 3 meters would still spare you from all harm.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Dec 29 2003, 11:41 PM
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Frag-o Delux
post Dec 29 2003, 11:56 PM
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We usuallly stick to the rules in 99% percent of the cases, but once in a while you had guys who thougth the more chrome you had the longer you will live no matter how dumb you are. This guy was set up in an ambush buy some triads. He was supposed to pick up something. He had a body guard open the trunk but jack ass decide 5 meters was more then enough to be safe, he thought chrome plus adept equals GOD. I don't remeber the amount of explosives used, but it was alot and of the sort meant to knock down builds. I know a little about explosives and I know C4 is really good at certain things, but he wanted some thing with a real bang. I had the GM use a RDX mixture with a nitro starter. The GM asked for advice on it weeks ahead of time one of the players was a demo expert or we were going out hire one for a run, so I didn't give it a thought. My character tagged along because I knew the soon to be flamed character. I knew there was a gang war going on and I didn't want to get caught in the cross fire so I was in the stuffer shack on the corner filling up on some soy, the symbiotes were aching. I usually tagged along because my character hated his but hid it well, but I was not going to miss his demise for nothing, I knew it was a matter of time, I just had to wait it out. :D

We have had great dragon shot outs. The character I had at the time had an uncanny ability to roll extremely high for finding gear, so I was the go to guy in the group. Our GM goes with the rolls 99% of the time, because a standing quote in our group is "if it is good for the PC it is good for the NPC" and generally vice versa. That usually keeps a cap on the mayhem and ungodly amounts of weapons to a minimum. We figure if we don't use AV rounds neither will the GM, but we keep a few clips around jsut incase we hit a guy that is tough.
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Birdy
post Jan 5 2004, 05:53 PM
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QUOTE (Sigfried McWild)
of course all this is only useful as long as both players and gms use it.

If it's only the gm the campaign will involve a lot of short lived characters.
If it's only the players there will be tons of crying gms asking for help in dealing with "munchkins".

More interesting than the actual real life tactics, would be how do you adapt them to SR rules . Also how useful are things like granades, delaied action , suppressive fire etc. in game?

Depends on the group. As you said if everybody knows his stuff (Try playing with a bunch of Infantryman ;-) ) these tactics work nicely. Mainly because the GM knows his players will react correctly (Cover, Bounded overwatch, mine placement etc) If not - dead players and/or dead npc.

Systems-Wise the main problem I found is that most (N)PC don't react to flying bullets the way they should. Most keep standing around and trade shots "Hollywood style" instead of seeking cover. SR with it's lack of damage locations and a rather "soft" combat system does it's own to encourage this (try playing Milleniums End the same way and you'll learn the chargen system really well)

Some rules makes no sense (i.e. the basic rules burstfire) and some are missing (walking fire) Some weapons (i.e. grenades) are to weak and some things you can not use (the 1mile sniper i.e) on players.

IMHO the best tactical advice is to be taken from stuff about resistance fighters in western europe or the UdSSR and television series like Mission:Impossible or Bugs. Military stuff does not mesh well with Shadowrun as both the setting and the system are not up to it. For that there are better systems and settings (GURPS, Twilight:2000, Cyberpunk/Fuzion...)

Birdy
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Siege
post Jan 5 2004, 09:04 PM
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A limited tactical approach is still beneficial -- the concepts still apply, if the exact mechanics don't translate well.

PCs and NPCs should dive for cover at the sound of gunfire, but there are plenty of people who stand around and look for the noise. The long-lived tend to have learned that lesson early.

-Siege
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Stein
post Jan 5 2004, 10:47 PM
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Let's keep in mind that IRL, today, a 40mm HE grenade launched from an M203 or M79 has a kill radius of 5 meters. Those handy little buggers have about 0.033 kg of C-4 in them, and the only metal is the casing of the round. Scale that to C-12 and then multiply the effect by 66 to simulate your 2 kg of C-12.

Welllllll, not exactly. Explosions, like any wave, follow the path of least resistance. In this case, with the ground as an obstacle, straight up and out. Makes a decent size hole and a real big boom, falsh and burn. Yeah, the rules suck for safe distance calculation. 'Nuff said. However, the real question is the destruction of the crane. Since the explosion was not directed by tamping, or shaping, I would be really surpised that it took down a structurally sound crane.

Demolition charges are always directed. Even then, we look for weaknesses in the structure and use physics and gravity to be able to carry enough charge to do the job. For said crane, supported on probably 3 or 4 I-beam, or cylindrical legs, I estimate that it would take about 12 kg (12 pakages) of C-4 or RDX specifically placed and tamped with, at least, wooden backstopping to cut those legs would be necessary.

Apply the conversion from C-4 to C-12 to get the reduction in weight, but one still needs to account for specifically placing the charges. It would take at least a 250 lb (120 kg) bomb, with a close to direct hit to take down that crane with undirected explosives.
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The Jopp
post Jan 5 2004, 11:00 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE
Two meters ain't gonna cut it.

In Real Life, you're absolutely correct. In English SR canon, you're wrong. The rules are quite clear on that. 2 meters away, 2kg of C12 do not do a god damn thing. Zero damage. In Real Life, standing 2 meters away from 2kg of C4 would fuck you up, bad. Though 1.9 meters and 10cm of steel would still protect you from everything except the sound, unless the steel wall toppled on you.

In my games, standing 2m away from 2kg of straight C-12 on open ground gets you 11D+1.

[Edit]Damn, you edited first. :([/Edit]

Say, are there NO rules whatsoever about shockwaves in shadowrun? Ok, so the EXPLOSION (fire, heat, big kaboom) doesn't affect the character but there should be rules about being thrown several meters away. Say, half original power of explosive in shockwave radius?
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Rev
post Jan 5 2004, 11:07 PM
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There are knockdown rules someplace in the combat section of the main book. Not sure what they say about explosions though.

If you want any of this explosive power stuff to be remotely realistic the rule needs to follow the inverse square law as well. Damage should drop with the square of distance in a fairly open space. That will greatly alleviate the problems of the power being too low nearby or too high far away no matter what reduction per meter you choose with a linear model.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 6 2004, 12:18 AM
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QUOTE (Stein)
For said crane, supported on probably 3 or 4 I-beam, or cylindrical legs, I estimate that it would take about 12 kg (12 pakages) of C-4 or RDX specifically placed and tamped with, at least, wooden backstopping to cut those legs would be necessary.

Now I admit I know absolutely nothing about how sturdy such cranes are, but I do know that a steel I-beam can be cut with far less than a kg of C-4 or RDX. Completely untrained individuals in my MP platoon did it with, I think, 400g of TNT or something similar.

QUOTE (The Jopp)
Say, are there NO rules whatsoever about shockwaves in shadowrun? Ok, so the EXPLOSION (fire, heat, big kaboom) doesn't affect the character but there should be rules about being thrown several meters away. Say, half original power of explosive in shockwave radius?

The "big kaboom" = shockwave. Using the normal combat Knockdown rules at double Power might be in order, because any shockwave with significant damaging potential is pretty darn likely to make you fall down (whether actually knock you down or just make you decide that lying down would be better).

QUOTE (Rev)
If you want any of this explosive power stuff to be remotely realistic the rule needs to follow the inverse square law as well. Damage should drop with the square of distance in a fairly open space. That will greatly alleviate the problems of the power being too low nearby or too high far away no matter what reduction per meter you choose with a linear model.

I haven't seen a good square root system for dropping the Power of explosives at range for SR yet. Though it might actually be that I have never seen a single such system at all. You might argue that it shouldn't be neccessary because SR already uses a square root in determining the Power of an explosion, and because Power is rather abstract.

Still, a system where all Blast ratings are given in "Halves after 4 meters" instead of "-1 after 4 meters" might work wonders. I have never tried, will have to think about it.
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gknoy
post Jan 6 2004, 12:21 AM
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QUOTE (Sigfried McWild)
More interesting than the actual real life tactics, would be how do you adapt them to SR rules . Also how useful are things like granades, delaied action , suppressive fire etc. in game?

Since few people have touched on this, I'll add my few cents. :)
Some of this is based on playtesting, and some on rule knowledge.

0) Not getting Hit is better than hitting them, IMO. I find myself using my combat pool for dodging, and hoping to hit with one or two shots.

1) Burst and autofire is almost always Better Than a pistol. Burst fire will screw you over if it hits, whereas Pistols don't do as much:
- H. Pistol does 9M. Takes 4 net successes to stage to deadly - you'll probably need two hits staged to Serious to kill anyone
- SMG on burst does 10S damage. AR does 9S, I think. 2 successes make it Deadly -- and with a harder TN to soak down, too. Not to mention that the first burst SHOULD have no TN mod, if you have good recoil compensation ... :)
(This is from some playtesting I did: my pistol-adept was doing well, but one lucky mook with an UZI III nearly took me to S damage in one hit. Luckily, he missed. Recall point 0. :))

2) Use ammo that improves your Power. Versus a lined coat, EX-EX is just as effective as APDS. ;)

3) Give your opponent every modifier you can. This ties in with point 0 (the TIE pilot's mantra).

4) On Modifiers: If possible, stack wound modifiers. A concussion grenade instead of an HE grenade will add stun mods in addition to their physical damage mods. (This gets nasty when you use both at once.) This is the main reason I'd LOVE my character to have an underbarrel grenade launcher. Loaded with

5) Grenades: Toss them into a small room or hallway (that you are not in) . Bring some chips forthe salsa-effect.

6) Don't get hit. :)

7) Wear armor just in case. :evil:

I have no advice to give on magic or decking - I know nothing. :)
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Fahr
post Jan 6 2004, 05:59 AM
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(aside:TIE pilots - either you are very good or you are dead)
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gknoy
post Jan 7 2004, 03:12 AM
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Also aside: hehehe... yes...

Anyways ... Maybe I can improve my previous advice ... in less words.

If they don't know you're there, you won't need to fight [yet].

If they can't see you, chances are they can't hit you [easily]. Use cover, smoke, etc. (Try seeing through the smoke in Raven Shield and you'll see what I mean. ;))

If they can't hit you, you don't have to dodge. [at least, my GM is nice enough to tell us when the shot is an obvious miss ;)] Modifiers, Modifiers, Modifiers. If your modifiers are less than theirs, chances are you live longer.

IMO: Not getting hit is [usually] better than making the shot. Combat pool is for dodging. Unless you have mad cover *lol*. Or unless you ARE the cover.

-- damn, that probably wasn't any better. :) Sorry! hehe...

As an aside ... I'd be interested in seeing a game-mechanic, test-scenario supported analysis of whether it's tactically smarter to concentrate fire (reduce the number of attackers sooner) or to spread out the wound penalties to everyone you can? I suspect that overall, concentrating fire is better -- a dead guard can't lob a grenade or call for backup, or such... however, if the enemies are not "elite" (have a low professional rating), they could retreat after getting some wounds.

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Kagetenshi
post Jan 7 2004, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE (gknoy)
If they don't know you're there, you won't need to fight [yet].

Mostly true. If your opponent is Inspector Clouseau, however, that is when you are in the most danger. Your best option is to immediately leap out and attempt to get his attention, as when he is actively trying to apprehend you you can consider yourself perfectly safe.

And on another note, it actually makes a lot of sense that someone would have to declare their dodge test before the attack was rolled... after all, the entire point of the dodge test is that you're trying to be out of the line of the shot when it gets fired, not that the shot would have hit and you Neoed your way out from under the bullet.

~J
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toturi
post Jan 7 2004, 05:56 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
And on another note, it actually makes a lot of sense that someone would have to declare their dodge test before the attack was rolled... after all, the entire point of the dodge test is that you're trying to be out of the line of the shot when it gets fired, not that the shot would have hit and you Neoed your way out from under the bullet.

~J

No, if I see some guy who can't even hold much less shoot a gun properly, i wouldn't dodge. And the only way for me to see that is to see him try to shoot at me first.

GM:*rolls and fails* You see a sec guard pulling his sidearm. He brings his gun up hastily and snaps off a shot at you. He's a lousy bugger who can't hit a Mac truck at point blank.

Player: OK, I don't dodge.

GM: *rolls and succeeds* You see another guard bring his weapon to bear on you, his stance is textbook, his hands are rock steady and his weapon is pointed dead at you. He squeezes the trigger.

Player: I dodge.
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Lilt
post Jan 7 2004, 06:00 AM
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[ASIDE]Z-95s are the best. I still remember that time I was playing a Z-95 X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter and out-scored the other players who were flying A-Wings and the like. Why? Z-95s are actually good! No, Really! Drop the shield recharge, you're like a TIE interceptor with more armor.[/ASIDE]

On tactics: Those Small unit tactics docs are great... Thanks! I doubt corp guards would be given high explosive grenades and mines for use in the building but I could see NeuroStun grenades being effective as a booby trap. You don't get the first guy but the rest are possibly unconcious, on stun modifiers, or separated.

What do you mean that part of the discussion ended a last year? Fneh.

I wonder: Are there equivalent tactics you could apply to astral combat? (not just astral melee, things like spirit powers and spells too)
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 7 2004, 02:39 PM
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QUOTE (toturi)
QUOTE (Kagetenshi @ Jan 7 2004, 11:24 AM)
And on another note, it actually makes a lot of sense that someone would have to declare their dodge test before the attack was rolled... after all, the entire point of the dodge test is that you're trying to be out of the line of the shot when it gets fired, not that the shot would have hit and you Neoed your way out from under the bullet.

~J

No, if I see some guy who can't even hold much less shoot a gun properly, i wouldn't dodge. And the only way for me to see that is to see him try to shoot at me first.

GM:*rolls and fails* You see a sec guard pulling his sidearm. He brings his gun up hastily and snaps off a shot at you. He's a lousy bugger who can't hit a Mac truck at point blank.

Player: OK, I don't dodge.

GM: *rolls and succeeds* You see another guard bring his weapon to bear on you, his stance is textbook, his hands are rock steady and his weapon is pointed dead at you. He squeezes the trigger.

Player: I dodge.

And what if he or she has a skill of 10? Your visual estimate breaks down. Besides, if you wait long enough to see all of that the bullet is already incoming, in which case it's too late.

~J
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Siege
post Jan 7 2004, 02:42 PM
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See, by the time you take the time to assess the shooter's body language, you've already gambled he's not a good shooter.

And let's face it, even a shooter with a skill of two or three might get lucky.

Although he's only going to score a 9M which body armor can shrug off easily...(I'm still voting for the variable power weapons.)

-Siege
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toturi
post Jan 7 2004, 04:19 PM
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Those were just examples of how you can explain why you can dodge after the guy makes his skill roll.

The dodge test is simply a means of avoiding being hit, a game mechanic if you will. A success on pistol/SMG/etc roll may be a fluke(karma pool), a indication of how much he wants you dead(combat pool), and skill. Dodging simply indicates how much you do not want to be hit, a please-god-make-it-miss roll.
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 7 2004, 04:26 PM
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Right, and it makes a certain amount of sense that you would have to decide how much you want to not be hit before you find out whether or not you would have been hit had you not expended the effort.
I personally am going to keep it the way we've been doing it, dodge test declared after attack roll, but I may play a game or two the other way. Makes things more deadly and reduces the out-of-game CP calculation.

~J
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toturi
post Jan 7 2004, 04:49 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Right, and it makes a certain amount of sense that you would have to decide how much you want to not be hit before you find out whether or not you would have been hit had you not expended the effort.
I personally am going to keep it the way we've been doing it, dodge test declared after attack roll, but I may play a game or two the other way. Makes things more deadly and reduces the out-of-game CP calculation.

~J

The reverse argument can simply be true also.

You could use the same argument to say, "Hey, since I know how much that guy is spending on Dodge, I may as well shoot someone else" or "Hmmm, I think I'll put in more effort to kill him". Using the dodge before attack rule, I can make every one in the room dodge and waste their combat pool before I decide on who to shoot.
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Kagetenshi
post Jan 7 2004, 05:14 PM
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Since the entire point is a slight increase in realism, reassessing one's attack options after the declaration of a dodge wouldn't be allowed. It would be more along the lines of a simultaneous declaration. However, within reason, I see no reason that a character should get to know they're being shot at before they decide to dodge. Someone's pointing a gun in my general direction, I've got a few friends with me, I'm going to start dodging before I figure out whether they're aiming at me or Bob over there.

~J
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toturi
post Jan 7 2004, 05:20 PM
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This would I think put a lot on emphasis on acting first, hence initiative and reaction.

Fastest guy to GM: Have the NPCs declare their dodge so that I can shoot the stingiest. And so that my friend who is going next can blow the crap outta them since they have no combat pool left.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 7 2004, 05:20 PM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
Someone's pointing a gun in my general direction, I've got a few friends with me, I'm going to start dodging before I figure out whether they're aiming at me or Bob over there.

You could consider that saving CP for the Dodge test. If this was a combat situation and you were also shooting, you knew that someone was pointing (or was going to point) a gun in your general direction, so you didn't use all your CP on the shooting.

Of course even that logic breaks down if you look at it closely, but it works well enough for me to continue allowing PCs to know whether they are hit, and I give them a general indication of how well they are being hit too. I don't call it "dodging" in my games, the literal translation of the term I use would be "tactical positioning".
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Kesh
post Jan 7 2004, 06:03 PM
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As someone who became extremely good at surviving dodgeball in school :D I can say it works both ways.

However, the one way I could best avoid being hit was to wait until the opponent pulls back, and just starts their forward motion. From that, I could see roughly where they were aiming and quickly make myself "not there." A similar argument could be made for the post-roll dodging... you're waiting long enough to see where the barrel is swinging towards, then moving before the trigger is actually pulled.
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Rev
post Jan 7 2004, 06:09 PM
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One way to make everyone commit to thier actions early without knowledge of what others will do would be to have everyone allocate thier pool dice first thing in a new round. Then whatever dice they have allocated to dodging, melee, damage resist, and ranged attack will be used each time they make such a test. So if you allocate two dice to dodge and get shot at four times you would roll those two dice four times. If nobody shot at you you would never roll the dodge dice. Quite possibly this would not work well without rebalancing a lot of other stuff.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Jan 7 2004, 06:19 PM
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Actually, Rev, that would probably work wonders. It would add a bit more stuff to an already slow combat system, but it would solve many of the problems associated with the SR ranged attack/dodging system. If you wish, you might even make those commitments secret, so you cannot use even that metagaming data in game.
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Fahr
post Jan 7 2004, 06:32 PM
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I always have everyone declare wether or not they are dodgeing at the beginning of init. everyone rolls the dice and writes down the results.. anytime they are shot at, you compare vs. the already rolled dodge to see results.

I always figured, that was sort of how it would play out in a real gunbattle, you dodge or not, and how many CP you use to do it was how important dodgeing was to you, once youv'e decided to dodge a particualr way in gun combat, it becomes rather impossible to change your whole body direction in response to the barrels of potentailly many guns...

-Mike R.
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gknoy
post Jan 8 2004, 12:26 AM
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QUOTE (Kagetenshi)
I personally am going to keep it the way we've been doing it, dodge test declared after attack roll, but I may play a game or two the other way. Makes things more deadly and reduces the out-of-game CP calculation.

~J

THanks =D
I agree (and will agree to about any point that says) that dodging before you know if the shot was a miss is more realistic. However, I will certainly say that I LIKE being able to dodge afterwards, and I've never had problems with characters living too long in combat. *laughs*. I'm thankful for the Fun Factor on this one.

[aside=Z95's]Holy mackerel -=) I could never hit ANYTHING in those.[/aside]
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post Jan 8 2004, 01:06 AM
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Z-95s are supposed to be old-tech fighters, outclassed by TIEs and X-wings.

Granted, I always thought they were kinda slick, but you can kick major drek in anything you can pilot well. :grinbig:

-Siege
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Fortune
post Jan 8 2004, 03:21 AM
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QUOTE (Rev)
One way to make everyone commit to thier actions early without knowledge of what others will do would be to have everyone allocate thier pool dice first thing in a new round. Then whatever dice they have allocated to dodging, melee, damage resist, and ranged attack will be used each time they make such a test. So if you allocate two dice to dodge and get shot at four times you would roll those two dice four times. If nobody shot at you you would never roll the dodge dice. Quite possibly this would not work well without rebalancing a lot of other stuff.

So, my Mage, who has a Combat Pool of, let's say 9, would just allot all 9 dice to dodge every turn. This means he would never roll less than 9 dice whenever someone tries to toast him, according to your suggestion.
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Crusher Bob
post Jan 8 2004, 05:35 AM
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One of the problems I have with applying tactics in game is that deciding how 'smart' the opposition should be is going to be a problem. Since most people have not been in that many firefights, or been trained in what to do that deeply 'knowing' what to do and being able to do the right thing in the 1.2 seconds you'll have available to do them in are a bit different. That's why the basic combat training is to get to cover, while it may not be the 'best' option available at the time, it will tend to make you live longer, which will mean that you have more time for though.
-----
As a sample:

A local gang has gotten too big for its britches, the team is hired to blast them out of existence. Most of the gang is at a party. Three team members armed with carbines or CAWs kick in the front door, and use some simple room clearing tactics (and several grenades). With the speed and coordination of the team, 30 seconds later they are comming out the back door, to be picked up by the getaway vehicle.

------

As the GM, what to you expect the gang members to do (except for mostly scream and die?). Very few games seem to convey the 'shock' and 'mental initiative' that can really dominate small, short engagements like that.

With the firepower and coordination available to a good team, a lot of the opposition can be taken out before it's 'tactical brain' can even being to figure out what is going on. Sure, in a longer engagement, the team will be in trouble, but how many fights last that long? (Answer: unsually not more than 1)
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Siege
post Jan 8 2004, 02:31 PM
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That's why gangs are so easy to decimate.

Unfortunately, if you don't kill all the members, they may invest in some forensic mages to find out who was responsible for hitting their brothers and look for some payback.

Not to mention, other gangs may take offense.

Which means they are relatively easy kills initially, but the ramifications are worth considering.

And some of the more aggressive gangs might even figure out things like setting watches or if they have low-end magical suport, watchers or even spirits. If you really want to mess with your players, low-end drone riggers with cobbled bits of drones, but enough to sound the alarm.

Unfortunately, the stray gunshot isn't nearly as dangerous as it might be in SR mechanics.

-Siege
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toturi
post Jan 8 2004, 02:43 PM
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QUOTE (Siege)
If you really want to mess with your players, low-end drone riggers with cobbled bits of drones, but enough to sound the alarm.

Not really. MIJI attacks and rigger takeovers can turn the drones over to the runners' side and worse, they get to keep the drones.

Also since the drones are so low level, the MIJI attacks are easily pulled off. I tried this once, and gave up. The rigger PC took over the gang's drones and killed them with those.
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Luke Hardison
post Jan 8 2004, 02:46 PM
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QUOTE
Unfortunately, the stray gunshot isn't nearly as dangerous as it might be in SR mechanics.


What's scary about this is that I have a system for determining where the bullets go, a simple 1D6 kinda like a scatter roll that can tell where they impact, depending on how well they rolled and how many bullets they flung. For example, few successes on a burst could easily send two bullets flying past the target, even though the "hit" is successful. For SS and SA fire, the round either hits the target or something else, but the point is this -- when you fire a bullet, it hits something.

I don't think the players have figured that out yet ... so far their stray rounds have been flavorful or incidental. I don't think they've realized that "Your rounds make chips in the brick behind your target" could become "Your stray APDS rounds put some holes in your teammate on the other side. Bob, roll body against ..." etc.
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post Jan 8 2004, 03:06 PM
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In our last game, one of the PCs offed a Fire Elemental by firing a LAW at a wall when it was moving materialized next to it. On the other side of the concrete building, another PC was slightly rattled by the blast blowing up a 1-meter radius hole in the wall right next to him...

Don't do 180 degree crossfire. It's not fun.
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Xirces
post Jan 8 2004, 04:12 PM
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QUOTE (Luke Hardison)
I don't think the players have figured that out yet ... so far their stray rounds have been flavorful or incidental. I don't think they've realized that "Your rounds make chips in the brick behind your target" could become "Your stray APDS rounds put some holes in your teammate on the other side. Bob, roll body against ..." etc.

Not with a smartlink they don't...
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