Spirits and Increase Attributes, Do they apply in Astral Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[JoelHalpern]

So, if an increase attribute is applied to the mental attributes of a spirit,
1) Presumably it applies in the meat world. The Attribute max is Force*1.5?
2) If the attribute is a mental attribute, does it affect the astral attributes?
3) If the spell is quickened, does it stay with the spirit as he moves back and forth between the meat world, the astral world, and the meta-planes?

And does any of this change if the spirit is an Ally spirit or a Free spirit?

some questions prompted by another thread,
Joel

[Ryu]

1) Ally spirits don´t have natural attribute maximums.
2) An (ally) spirits astral attributes are not derived, but at (force). The spell, while sustained, should affect both sets of attributes equally, as long as force is sufficient.
3) It should.

Free spirits may have the Free Spirit PC rules invoked, at the discretion of the GM. In that case their natural attribute maximum is their force(6+initiate degree).

[Fortune]

Ally spirits don´t have natural attribute maximums.

I would still apply a limitation of 1.5 times the Ally Spirit's current Attribute level.

An (ally) spirits astral attributes are not derived, but at (force).

Not necessarily. Ally Spirits can actually possess Attributes at ratings higher than their Force, either through an option in the initial Summoning, or through the Ritual of Change.

[Ryu]

I have searched for a way to increase individual attributes on an ally, but come to the conclusion that my SR3 memories were acting up. Do you have a reference?

[Fortune]

Nope. Appears I also have ghost memories of SR3. Hmmmm ... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[pbangarth]

Increase attributes is a Physical spell and as such does not affect astral forms. (SR4 p. 195)

Peter

[Ryu]

First printing error of the German edition apparently, our StreetMagic has it right. Sorry.

[Cabral]

Increase attributes is a Physical spell and as such does not affect astral forms. (SR4 p. 195)

Peter

Manifest Spirits have physical forms (2nd paragraph of Spirit Forms, page 176 SR4)

Interestingly, I don't see anything preventing the design of a Mana Increase Attribute spell or even a beneficial version mana static ... apart from GM Nerf Hammer ...

[pbangarth]

Manifest Spirits have physical forms (2nd paragraph of Spirit Forms, page 176 SR4)

Yes, but the original question is whether the Increase Attribute can be used in the Astral plane. There, only mana type spells work.

Peter

[JoelHalpern]

Yes, but the original question is whether the Increase Attribute can be used in the Astral plane. There, only mana type spells work.

Peter

Which leads to the seconde half of Cabral's question. Other than the GM just saying no, is there any reason that there can not be mana versions of the increase attribute spells? And would those carry into the astral?

(I have seen folks crafting spells I would have thought were much more abusive, but seemingly within the rules.)

Joel

[Ryu]

According to the (German) Streetmagic, spells that affect attributes have to be physical spells.

[pbangarth]

According to the (German) Streetmagic, spells that affect attributes have to be physical spells.

Same with the English version, page 163.

Peter

[JoelHalpern]

According to the (German) Streetmagic, spells that affect attributes have to be physical spells.

Thansk (and thanks to Peter for confirming the English language edition is the same.) This last question is due to bad timing on my part. I posted the first question, and then headed out on a 10 day business trip. Otherwise I should have just read the book.

So double thanks for clarifying what I should have been able to find out.
Joel

[Sceptic]

Manifest Spirits have physical forms (2nd paragraph of Spirit Forms, page 176 SR4)

Manifest spirits do not have physical forms.

Unlike the Materialization power of spirits (p. 289), manifesting does not create a physical form, [...]

You may be thinking of Materialized spirits, which do have a physical form.

[Cabral]

Yes, Materialization creates a physical form. Sorry for the typo ... I had just looked at it too. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Same with the English version, page 163.

Can you tell me where you are reading this? I looked under Spell Type (p 159) and Health Spells as well as the Drain Modifiers table (both p 163) and did not see anything on the v 1.2 SM Errata.

There is something abou Mental and Physical Manipulations but not Health Spells (Increase Attributes is a Health Spell (or rather a series of them)).

[pbangarth]

Can you tell me where you are reading this? I looked under Spell Type (p 159) and Health Spells as well as the Drain Modifiers table (both p 163) and did not see anything on the v 1.2 SM Errata.

There is something abou Mental and Physical Manipulations but not Health Spells (Increase Attributes is a Health Spell (or rather a series of them)).

Street Magic, p. 163, left column, last line of first paragraph under Health Spells:

"Most Health spells are mana spells, though spells that affect attribute scores must be physical."

Peter

[Cabral]

Thanks. I don't know how I missed it re-reading it so many times. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Muspellsheimr]

Interestingly, I don't see anything preventing the design of a Mana Increase Attribute spell or even a beneficial version mana static ... apart from GM Nerf Hammer ...

By "beneficial" Mana Static, I assume you mean aspected? This is a no-go. Sorcery can create mana surges (Mana Static) in a localized area, but creating an aspected background count requires Geomancy - something separate from Sorcery - & a (very) lengthy ritual.

While the book requires attribute increases to be Physical spells, I do not see any logical or balance reason for being unable to design Mana Increase spells - they would, however, affect only astral forms.

[Cabral]

No, by beneficial, I meant a Force buff instead of nerf, though being an attribute of a spirit, I suppose pbangarth's point above stands. However, domains (page 121 SM) are not a Geomancy only occurance, not that I would argue a spell that generated temporary domains would be balanced ...