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Socinus
post Dec 17 2008, 01:53 AM
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This always struck me as a little strange.

Wetwork (Assassinations or just killing in general) is supposed to be rather taboo in the Shadowrun world. People look down on it and tend to scorn it.

WHY!? Shadowrun isnt exactly a world brimming with moral scruples and the rather mercenary attitude that many in the world seem to have doesnt square with a world where hacking into someone's comlink to steal their personal information and cooking drugs is TOTALLY kosher but suddenly you throw in a little "bang bang" and all of a sudden nuts just hit the wall.
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Malachi
post Dec 17 2008, 01:56 AM
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Where did you get that impression? There are some runners in the SR world that avoid wetwork on "principle" but no one ever said it doesn't exist. My goodness how many major SR characters have been assassinated in the "canon?"
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MaxMahem
post Dec 17 2008, 01:59 AM
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Peoples morals and tastes differ. Some players do not enjoy playing characters who would easily take a life just in the name of money. And other players might be playing a character who (for whatever reason) also hesitate before taking a life just for pay. And even for players/characters who have no problem with wetwork in general, there still might be ethical lines they wont cross.

I mean really its all about how you like your game. Some players reveal in the though of being bloodthirsty murders with little qualms. Others find that style of play distastful. I don't think either style is wrong necessarily, but it probably isn't a good idea to try and force one set of tastes on the other. I have seen some in and out of game arguments break out over it.

A delicate job it is to balance between these tastes for a group, its GM, and its players.
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TheOOB
post Dec 17 2008, 02:03 AM
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There are plenty of runner who will perform wetwork, but it is a fairly common place to draw the line. Look at it like this, most runners don't mind killing people on the job if they have to. If a gun fight breaks out and it's you or the corp sec team, I think your character will vote to keep themselves alive and take out their opposition. That said, unless it's a life or death situation, runners tend to avoid killing people on runs. They will use stick-n-shock, gel rounds, or DSMO narcojet rounds instead of lead to take out minor opposition and will only resort to lethal force it their life depends on it. If they kill someone it's a shame, but they never took the job to kill someone, a specific target, they are not an assassin, and as little sense as it might make, that is a significant moral difference for some people. The difference between killing for profit and killing for your life, nevermind that you wouldn't have to do either if you took up a career other then shadowrunning.

There are also professional reasons not to perform wetwork. From a legal standpoint, first degree murder(assassination), is much worse of a crime then second degree. The cops and corps don't usually make an effort to capture shadowrunners unless they are too high profile, as it's incredibly dangerous and once the runners give their johnson whatever it was they where picking up for them, there really isn't a benefit to them. But assassins on the other hand piss people off, assassins cause major loses of face for both corps and cops, not to mention the friends and family of the target will be none to happy with you. Besides, assassins are allready proven to be cold blooded killers, which might put people off hiring you.

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toturi
post Dec 17 2008, 02:15 AM
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Wetwork in Shadowrun RAW AFAIK is not a taboo subject. It is the killing of innocent people that accrues Notoriety, not simply killing someone. Killing someone when the job is to kill that someone is simply being professional. It is unnecessary collateral damage that is frowned upon.
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Matsci
post Dec 17 2008, 02:18 AM
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Or you have a group of runners like mine, who gladly will slaughter there way through an entire building, leaving nothing but corpses in there wake.
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Fortune
post Dec 17 2008, 02:30 AM
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Short answer: It isn't!
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Socinus
post Dec 17 2008, 03:14 AM
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From the core book

"Wetwork is assassination, pure and simple. Many runners refuse to take these jobs and view dirtying their hands for money in this way as vile."
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The Jake
post Dec 17 2008, 03:17 AM
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QUOTE (Socinus @ Dec 17 2008, 03:14 AM) *
From the core book

"Wetwork is assassination, pure and simple. Many runners refuse to take these jobs and view dirtying their hands for money in this way as vile."


Pot. Kettle. Black.

I think its a bit hypocritical to look down on wetwork when arson, extortion, kidnapping, theft are standard daily fare.

My last character was a pacifist who used stun spells and DMSO laced narcojet rounds. My next character won't have a problem wasting people.

- J.
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Sumo Neko
post Dec 17 2008, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE (Socinus @ Dec 16 2008, 08:53 PM) *
This always struck me as a little strange.

Wetwork (Assassinations or just killing in general) is supposed to be rather taboo in the Shadowrun world. People look down on it and tend to scorn it.

WHY!? Shadowrun isnt exactly a world brimming with moral scruples and the rather mercenary attitude that many in the world seem to have doesnt square with a world where hacking into someone's comlink to steal their personal information and cooking drugs is TOTALLY kosher but suddenly you throw in a little "bang bang" and all of a sudden nuts just hit the wall.



The other reason is that wetwork is murder. Contract killings & wetwork assignments are the same thing.
IF the law catches you -- maybe a life sentence, but the death penalty is almost a given.

I don't know how many games have played where their runners have gone to jail. But the idea of well make a new character because they are locked up for 5 to 10 years -- isn't that appealing to most players.

Some people don't mind or don't care about the morality or the consequences -- some do. It is a good idea to gauge your party on this subject before the game begins to get a feel for what they will and will not do.

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The Jake
post Dec 17 2008, 03:39 AM
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QUOTE (Sumo Neko @ Dec 17 2008, 03:24 AM) *
The other reason is that wetwork is murder. Contract killings & wetwork assignments are the same thing.
IF the law catches you -- maybe a life sentence, but the death penalty is almost a given.

I don't know how many games have played where their runners have gone to jail. But the idea of well make a new character because they are locked up for 5 to 10 years -- isn't that appealing to most players.

Some people don't mind or don't care about the morality or the consequences -- some do. It is a good idea to gauge your party on this subject before the game begins to get a feel for what they will and will not do.


If one of my runners went to jail and was told to make a new character, I know the party would scream to try and conduct a jail break.

As stupid as it sounds (in terms of probability of success), that sounds like it would be fun to GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'd probably let them try for a laugh.

- J.
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Sumo Neko
post Dec 17 2008, 03:45 AM
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QUOTE (The Jake @ Dec 16 2008, 10:39 PM) *
If one of my runners went to jail and was told to make a new character, I know the party would scream to try and conduct a jail break.

As stupid as it sounds (in terms of probability of success), that sounds like it would be fun to GM. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'd probably let them try for a laugh.

- J.


Oh there would be a lot of adventure ideas that came from that. It all depends on the crime they got put away for and how much of a wanted person they would be. But Arson usually doesn't get the death sentence -- and if it happens somewhere a megacorp has extraterritoriality, that sentence may not be long before the execution.

Was just throwing ideas out there.

I have had characters on both sides of that debate, and parties divided by it. It can be an interesting roleplaying session or 2.
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Crusher Bob
post Dec 17 2008, 04:50 AM
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QUOTE (Sumo Neko @ Dec 17 2008, 11:24 AM) *
The other reason is that wetwork is murder. Contract killings & wetwork assignments are the same thing.
IF the law catches you -- maybe a life sentence, but the death penalty is almost a given.

I don't know how many games have played where their runners have gone to jail. But the idea of well make a new character because they are locked up for 5 to 10 years -- isn't that appealing to most players.


Considering how many security guards tend to get gunned down in the course of many a run, and the common law felony murder rule, it hardly matters what you go down for, you are getting life either way.

In addition,
1
considering how much of your characters ability is gear based, even a nickel sentence where they take out all your ware is basically just as good as character death.

2
Considering further that the people most likely to catch you (i.e. corpsec) have very loose views on due process. So actually getting caught will probably be worse than life.

So, don't get caught, even if you have to kill a bunch of people to do it.
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MaxMahem
post Dec 17 2008, 05:02 AM
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QUOTE (Socinus @ Dec 16 2008, 11:14 PM) *
From the core book
"Wetwork is assassination, pure and simple. Many runners refuse to take these jobs and view dirtying their hands for money in this way as vile."


I think reading any more into this than what it says is a mistake. It is simply meant to describe a relativily common point of view among those who work the shadows. 'Many runners' view wetwork with distain, not all or even most. It doesn't say that those runners are unwilling to use lethal force in the course of other aims (though some might be). And of course the extent to which this hold true is of course up to you and your group, and likely veries from location to location.

The only reason this distinction is important is that this is probably the most common moral line that some runners refuse to cross. They may be okay with destruction of property, theft, or even a kidnapping (of both the the willing and unwilling kind), but may refuse to take assassination jobs, for reasons both ethical and practical.

---

I should also note here, just as a legal point, in most of the US today there exists something called 'Felony Murder' which can have three important implications for shadowrunners (or anyone else who breaks the law really).

Firstly if someone died (accidently or otherwise) during the commision of a felony, you can be held culpible for that death and charged with murder and/or manslaughter. This means if Aunt Pentinua can't handle the stress of and has a heart attack while you are knocking over the local stuffer-shack you can be charged with her murder.

Secondly, if the primary felony you commited was pre-mediated, then any murders that happen during the course of that crime can be considered pre-meditated as well. Which means if you whack the Sam the Stuffer-Shack rent-a-cop during your well though out pre-planned stuffer-shack caper, you can be charged with 1st degree murder, even though you didn't initialy plan to kill him. In fact, in the US most murders committed in the course of a crime like Armed Robbery qualify has 'depraved indifference to human life' and as such qualify as first-degree murder in most cases regardless.

Thirdly, if even if you aren't a participant in the acts which led to the death, but are a participant in the crime itself, you can also be charged with Felony Murder. Which means Joe, the wheelman for your Stuffer-Shack caper can be charged with the deaths of Aunt Petinua and Sam the Stuffer-Shack Rent-A-Cop, even though he stayed out in the car the whole time. In fact in some cases, like if someone was killed for discovering the embelzement sceme you were a part of, the reach of a Felony Murder charge can be quite wide indeed. You may not have ever even heard of the murder or the victim, but could still theoretically be charged with the crime (in some jurisdictions at least).

To what extent these laws still apply in the 6th world is obviously up to you, but it bears some thinking about. I doubt there has been a big push to ease up on laws like this in the future.
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ludomastro
post Dec 17 2008, 05:19 AM
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Flavor - that's all.

One of my favorite SR characters is Grandpa, an assassin who turned the concept of wetwork on its head. He has an unusual trait - he won't kill unless he has a contract on the person. "Somebody might pay me to kill them later."
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The Jake
post Dec 17 2008, 05:21 AM
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QUOTE (Sumo Neko @ Dec 17 2008, 03:45 AM) *
Oh there would be a lot of adventure ideas that came from that. It all depends on the crime they got put away for and how much of a wanted person they would be. But Arson usually doesn't get the death sentence -- and if it happens somewhere a megacorp has extraterritoriality, that sentence may not be long before the execution.

Was just throwing ideas out there.

I have had characters on both sides of that debate, and parties divided by it. It can be an interesting roleplaying session or 2.


Some see misfortune, some see providence...

I see an opportunity to use Target: Wastelands and the arctic jail scenario!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

- J.
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TheOOB
post Dec 17 2008, 05:56 AM
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It's all a matter of personal ethics. My current character refuses to kill someone who hasn't attacked him with lethal force, so taking a job to kill someone who he has never even met is pretty far out for him morally. That said he has no trouble with arson, theft, destruction of property, extortion...and if you shoot him, well you should have known better.
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KurenaiYami
post Dec 17 2008, 08:03 AM
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QUOTE (Socinus @ Dec 16 2008, 07:14 PM) *
From the core book

"Wetwork is assassination, pure and simple. Many runners refuse to take these jobs and view dirtying their hands for money in this way as vile."


And many runners don't. Many is not the majority, many is just a significant number of them. I think the opening post is extrapolation to an extreme if that's the only paragraph you're going off of.
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Chrysalis
post Dec 17 2008, 09:14 AM
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My character, Sonya I play as being scary. As in the rest of the PCs are afraid of her. As Scoot defined his character's job "to be a buffer between Sonya and Cherry to make sure Sonya does not kill her." Sonya not being the most charismatic by a long shot, often has to resort to torture to get things out.

You know I think they should have as a negative trait pacificist or the less negative one refuses to kill an innocent.
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Socinus
post Dec 17 2008, 09:25 AM
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QUOTE (Chrysalis @ Dec 17 2008, 10:14 AM) *
My character, Sonya I play as being scary. As in the rest of the PCs are afraid of her. As Scoot defined his character's job "to be a buffer between Sonya and Cherry to make sure Sonya does not kill her." Sonya not being the most charismatic by a long shot, often has to resort to torture to get things out.

You know I think they should have as a negative trait pacificist or the less negative one refuses to kill an innocent.

They do, its in Runner's Companion
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Chrysalis
post Dec 17 2008, 09:32 AM
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Cool. I actually want to give Sonya the Astral Hazing trait from Runners Companion. But then again I am not the most stable of people and so my characters are a bit helter skelter as well.
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Fuchs
post Dec 17 2008, 10:06 AM
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My first shadowrunner group, back when we started the game in our teens, had the strict "We do not take wetwork jobs, ever" rule.

Killing during another job was a-ok though, and "slaughtering their way through a building" as well as "leaving no witnesses" was common place, so some of the smarter johnsons just hired the crazy bunch for "sabotage" runs, knowing they'd probably sabotage the target facility by blowing it up with everyone inside, including the person the Johnson wanted dead.
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Stahlseele
post Dec 17 2008, 11:38 AM
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"There is no collateral damage . . there's only those few he is trying to use as a living shield. That's the easiest way to kill someone . . make them believe you won't if they do something like that. Make them believe you care about certain 'Rules' . . Then say 'I lied!' and shoot through whoever he tries to hide behind. Gauss and APDS don't much care for anything between them and their Target. At least, when i am done, they won't suffer for the rest of their lives. The few seconds to minutes they have."

I ususally try not to go overboard with the killing, if i ain't playing sergeant Psycho McCrazy, but SOMEONE has to be the Monster that gets rid of the other monsters. Especially in a Group of Pacifists and sneaky talky people and the GM using this against them.
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ornot
post Dec 17 2008, 11:40 AM
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It varies greatly depending on the runners themselves. I've played in groups where to keep a pacifist PC happy the others used non-lethal means first and foremost. Her respect for metahuman life rubbed off on the others to a certain extent, despite two team members being twisted brutal sociopaths. In my current group one of my players abhores violence, so the others don't tell her about it. Since she's the hacker, and is usually off in VR, they can do whatever they like so long as the blood and bodies are out of sight when she comes back to the meat. Even so, this group is finding that killing people leads to more trouble than it's worth, and have resolved not to take any more wetwork contracts... after the current one that is... and if they get really hard up for cash again!

There have been complaints that the SR devs try to impose a moral framework to the game, couching twisted magical paths and dissonant TMs in uniformly negative terms. I can understand why they might want to do so, and also appreciate the game balance requirements, but in the end it's your game, and wetwork will happen if Mr J. employs the PCs to do so.
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Stahlseele
post Dec 17 2008, 11:44 AM
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QUOTE
and wetwork will happen if Mr J. employs the PCs to do so.

and it will probably be a bloody messy loud and flashy spectacle to boot . . if not ordered to do it nice and quiet.
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