Matrix Examples Options

[xicidis]

I feel like I just can't wrap my mind around the Matrix. I got Unwired and read it. I understand the rules, and how to use it. I don't however understand the Matrix itself.

Lets say we are in Las Vegas 2072. We have a parking garage, the casino floor, the showroom, multiple restaurants bars, a few convention rooms, hotel rooms, a pool, sports books, the cage, the count room, the employee break rooms and food areas, maintenance, the security room, the surveillance room, and some offices for the beurocratic stuff. Withen all of the there are well more then 1,000 cameras.

How many nodes are there going to be? How would you access the nodes? What would be happening matrix-wise.

Also, if anyone could help me out. I would LOVE to see some matrix interactions linked, or posted so we can see them. It would help me out a lot.

Thanks guys. Your all great. ^^

[hermit]

there most likely are some 10 nodes. Nodes would be:

Accounting (Casino)
Accounting (Hotel)
Hotel
Games 1 (traditional casino games)
Games 2 (Matrix-based gambling)
Games 3 (betting, pit fights, odd stuff)
Security
Utilities (Casino)
Utilities (Hotel)
Utilities (Misc)
Communications (internal)
Private nodes for misc stuff (some 2)


The games nodes and internal communications host would likely be large nexi. All nodes should be rating 4+ and pack serious ice and spiders. The thousands of cameras are slaved to the security node and for rules purposes don't count as single nodes. Same with casino gaming machines and relevat stuff, hotel applicances, lighting ect.

The nodes would be arranged in a SR1 style grid. Funny thing about SR4 is it brought back labyrinthine matrix systems.

Another design idea (if it was a really cheap casino that couldn't afford some 50 Grand more for overall powerful systems) would be to add 3 choke point nodes/nexi where all incoming/outgoing communications are routed through and have the internal hosts exclusively wired, with all wireless in the hotel being routed through eitehr a totally seperate host. Meaning if you want to gamble online from your hotel room, you dial out and then route back in through a choke point. Or, if it's utility stuff, slaved to the node in question. Propably ith decent strong encryption and a spoof chip (which costs next to nothing) that resets the encryption before it's minimum cracking time is up, so spoofing into the casino grid is out of the question. If the Casino was so paranoid about it's internal workings, of course online gambling would be a totally seperate host. Money transfer would be handeld with burst transmissions, strong encrypted, via sattelite. All in the casino's price range - it won't even notice the few grand that costs, honestly - and makes it pretty much impenetrable for hackers.

[xicidis]

OK. So using your example, two questions come to me.

1: Why not build very node system like that. Like you said it's not THAT expensive.

2: If a hacker wanted to do anything in the building, let's say all the spiders are on coffee breaks, the astral guards are away on call, and the security guards are doing shift change. (Not that that is what I'm working with, just a what if.) If I see a camera, I can wirelessly connect to it. It will send me to the node it is slaved to (there obviously is one.) From there could I go to a different node if I chose? Could I make an admin account and then work on spoofing stuff in the camera?

[AngelisStorm]

Why would the camera be wirelessly enabled in a secure setting? You would probably have to do the old spy trick and actually tap the line from the camera.

I'm not sure about the spoofing, but I believe you would use Computer & Edit, not Spoof.

And Security is not likely to have a auto-in connection to the rest of the system. It would have some connections (so the Spiders can get around), but Security is also a strong point, so a likely target. It wouldn't have a automatic connection into Accounting and the Games (probably). After all, security might want to make a few bucks rigging stuff to.

[deek]

If you built every system like that, then you might as well tell your hacker player to find something else to do during your game. Seriously though, while it makes sense to lock stuff down so no one can break in, you are still playing a game where a player may want to try and hack. If you just tell them no, its impossible, they are going to wonder why they made a hacker in your game.

You can limit their access, but don't cut them all off.

As to the number of nodes, an alternative could be that all of what you mentioned above is in one node. You could still have a ton of ice and spiders, but by oversimplifying the structure, you can keep your game running faster.

[hermit]

1: Why not build very node system like that. Like you said it's not THAT expensive.

Because it wouldn't be playable anymore then. Yes, that doesn't make much sense in-world. Ingame explanation: people are stupid and place immense faith in the Matrix that caused a global catastrophe - twice. SR people are more trusting than notrmal people anyway.

Why would the camera be wirelessly enabled in a secure setting? You would probably have to do the old spy trick and actually tap the line from the camera.

In SR4, everything is wireless-enablked, including your undies.

I'm not sure about the spoofing, but I believe you would use Computer & Edit, not Spoof.

No way around 24 hours of strong encryption and a spoof chip that spoofs it's own encryption every 11 hours and changes it.

It will send me to the node it is slaved to (there obviously is one.) From there could I go to a different node if I chose? Could I make an admin account and then work on spoofing stuff in the camera?

If you can make an extended test in less than it's minimum time (which is impossible), yes, you could.

[Redjack]

Ingame explanation: people are stupid and place immense faith in the Matrix that caused a global catastrophe - twice. SR people are more trusting than notrmal people anyway.

Hmmm.. Real world, billions are given to banks who can't account for the money.... I counter people are just stupid and do stupid things. As a technologist I can definitely tell you that the best technical solutions don't always meet business needs, budgets, etc. and get nixed or modified.

[Malachi]

I would run the above situation in a maximum of 3 nodes:
1) Gaming
2) Administration
3) Security

The Gaming system would have a public face, where players can play casino games through their 'link and such. The Administration system would be for all the misc stuff like Accounting, non-security building systems, and other mundane information (hotel guest records, employee files, etc). The Security system would handle all the door locks, cameras, sensors, and such. Each individual security device would not be wireless enabled or slaved to the Security node, but the Security Node itself would need to have wireless covering the entire casino. Why? So that Security personnel can be tapped into it and respond quickly to alarms that are raised throughout the building.

Don't go crazy on the multiple nodes thing in SR4. SR1 and SR2 did the whole "node maze" thing and it wasn't fun. It took too long, so all the non-Deckers didn't like it, and it often frustrated even the Decker character. Keep the Matrix stuff in SR4 fast. I have always found it best to focus on what the Hacker wants to do in the system. If they want to get into the system to "loop" the cameras or open some door locks, then make the "breaking in" test, then have them make one test to do whatever they want to do. Contrary to previous incarnations, there is no real "right" way to run Matrix stuff in SR4. Bottom line: if you don't know what to roll, pick a skill (probably Hacking) then pick a program (probably Edit) and have the Hacker roll them, oppose it with the Node's System + Firewall or Firewall + Analyze, and whoever gets the most net hits gets their way. Move on.

EDIT: To make a shameless plug of one of my threads for a moment. xicidis, check out the thread that is linked in my signature. I know it's a long read, but buried in there is some notes on how I design a Matrix system to be integrated with a run (see the section on "The Factory"), and then later when I recount the first session with my players you can see how I run my Matrix stuff.

[hermit]

Hmmm.. Real world, billions are given to banks who can't account for the money.... I counter people are just stupid and do stupid things. As a technologist I can definitely tell you that the best technical solutions don't always meet business needs, budgets, etc. and get nixed or modified.

Sure, but it's not like we had our last total financial crash 5 years ago, is it?

Also, für an up of some 25K have an impenetrable system, rather than endure at least 25K a week of losses due to data theft? We're not talking real-world prices here. Also, keep in mind my example systemw as for a casino, who usually are more security conscious than your average mom and pop outfit.

1) Gaming
2) Administration
3) Security

So your Casino would support a maximum of 60 people gambling online. That's not exactly Vegas' scope.

Also, if you set choke points, you really upgrade your security, because you can just reboot them if an intruder is detected (make them level 6 and optimise them for analyse, and have level 6 analyse (ergonomic, optimised 6) run on the node and 6 agents. Impossible to infiltrate without being detected. Script the choke point node so that it reboots the next action after an intruder is detected, and kick the hacker while your normal operations remain untouched. Have more than 2 choke points, have only one active and the next subscribe when number one goes down, and ordinary users would hardly notice the hacking attempt. Of course, all connections have to immediatly be rerouted though chokepoint 2.

Now, normal systems would work like you outlined. Just, a Casino isn't a normal system, it's a high security outfit. And even for an ordinary shop, a chokepoint firewall might make sense. It's an investment of some 10K, and it will prevent hackers from siphoning off your earnings. Don't really see why not to have one.

Keep the Matrix stuff in SR4 fast. I have always found it best to focus on what the Hacker wants to do in the system. If they want to get into the system to "loop" the cameras or open some door locks, then make the "breaking in" test, then have them make one test to do whatever they want to do. Contrary to previous incarnations, there is no real "right" way to run Matrix stuff in SR4. Bottom line: if you don't know what to roll, pick a skill (probably Hacking) then pick a program (probably Edit) and have the Hacker roll them, oppose it with the Node's System + Firewall or Firewall + Analyze, and whoever gets the most net hits gets their way. Move on.

Funny, that's pretty much how I did it in SR3 and it's dreaded, overly complex Matrix rules ... and what SR4 really wanted to change. I detect an epic failure.

I don't see why one should design matrix systems for fast playing, completly ignoring how they should work ingame so that they make sense ingame. This isn't a game of suck up to the decker, after all.

[Malachi]

So your Casino would support a maximum of 60 people gambling online. That's not exactly Vegas' scope.

If you cluster Nexi together, you add their collective Processor Limit together while averaging their system ratings. Ergo, you can have more people online. Personally, I've always house-ruled that "mainframe" level Matrix systems have no Processor Limit. Besides, IIRC, that stat is only a limitation for the number of people that actually want to run their persona from that Node. In the case of the Casino, people are probably still running their Persona through their personal Commlink and just playing the game on the main server (via what Unwired calls "Data Requests").

Now, normal systems would work like you outlined. Just, a Casino isn't a normal system, it's a high security outfit. And even for an ordinary shop, a chokepoint firewall might make sense. It's an investment of some 10K, and it will prevent hackers from siphoning off your earnings. Don't really see why not to have one.

Yes, you can get thoroughly ridiculous with system security and rebooting, Access ID switching, one billion hour Encryption running, "glacier" chokepoints... but is that what your group really wants?

I don't see why one should design matrix systems for fast playing, completly ignoring how they should work ingame so that they make sense ingame. This isn't a game of suck up to the decker, after all.

It all depends on how "hardcore" your group wants to go with all of that stuff. I take it from the tone of your post you're very much in the "simulationist" camp of your RPG. That's fine, if your group demands realism and believability, then go for it. Design your nigh-impossible to Hack systems and I imagine your players enjoy pouring over the security to try and find a hole to exploit. Other groups might not want such a demanding game, however. Don't presume your style of play is the only "right" way to play things. Some groups may just want to have fun and Hack things in a much more "movie" style world.

Funny, that's pretty much how I did it in SR3 and it's dreaded, overly complex Matrix rules ... and what SR4 really wanted to change. I detect an epic failure.

I don't really see what you're getting at here.

[Heath Robinson]

The fastest way to determine how many nodes there are going to be is figure how many business functions there are and how they're divided within the business. Computer systems always mimics their designers.

The problem here is that we're looking at a number of businesses in the same space. Each restaurant will have their own node which handles tracking orders, dealing with payments and paying their employees. The larger business that owns the hotel and casino will have a node for dealing with admin and accounting, a public face and it's security system. Parking can be handled by peripherals and tied into the hotel's accounting system.

The casino might also have its own accounting system but this can, and most often will, be rolled into the hotel's accounting node. Games are, I assume, provided physically for authenticity and customer service purposes. If your customers wanted to play AR or VR games, they'd do it from their homes using one of the multitude of gaming Nodes, they come to you to play things in the meat and savour the atmosphere.

R + 3

This is like Malachi's answer, but you need to pay attention to the businesses that run the restaurants.

[hobgoblin]

one thing to note however, is that unlike earlier SR versions, in SR4 the hacker can have his persona in all the nodes of the place, at the same time.

only problem is if shit really hit the fans and he has IC coming after him on multiple nodes...

[hermit]

If you cluster Nexi together, you add their collective Processor Limit together while averaging their system ratings. Ergo, you can have more people online. Personally, I've always house-ruled that "mainframe" level Matrix systems have no Processor Limit.

That's certainly reasonable (and how it was handled before SR4), but I believe the OP wants an answer based on RAW, not house rules, no matter how much sense they do make.

Besides, IIRC, that stat is only a limitation for the number of people that actually want to run their persona from that Node. In the case of the Casino, people are probably still running their Persona through their personal Commlink and just playing the game on the main server (via what Unwired calls "Data Requests").

Might be a possibility, but wasn't there a cap, too?

Yes, you can get thoroughly ridiculous with system security and rebooting, Access ID switching, one billion hour Encryption running, "glacier" chokepoints... but is that what your group really wants?

I am talking about rules as written here, not what my group may or may not want. And frankly, cheap as system security has been made, not having it maximised would be nonsensical for any serious business, especially given the technomancer and AI scares the wireless matrix has made daily occurrences.

It all depends on how "hardcore" your group wants to go with all of that stuff. I take it from the tone of your post you're very much in the "simulationist" camp of your RPG. That's fine, if your group demands realism and believability, then go for it. Design your nigh-impossible to Hack systems and I imagine your players enjoy pouring over the security to try and find a hole to exploit. Other groups might not want such a demanding game, however. Don't presume your style of play is the only "right" way to play things. Some groups may just want to have fun and Hack things in a much more "movie" style world.

I don't. However, I presume the game is designed to be played as written, which includes assumptions on system security that have also been made in Unwired. You're welcome to change that (I know I do - you sadly have to), but as the answer was propably supposed to explain what goes according to RAW, houserules aren't what's asked for.

I don't really see what you're getting at here.

Just a general chip on my shoulder about how SR4 always was about making the matrix rules playable without resorting to "sum it up in one test" or making the decker an NPC altogether, and now, we have the exact same situation again. Nothing personal, sorry.

one thing to note however, is that unlike earlier SR versions, in SR4 the hacker can have his persona in all the nodes of the place, at the same time.

Yes, that really simplifies things and makes decking easier, smoother and faster to deal with.

[hobgoblin]

sadly i have to ask, was that last line ironic?

[hermit]

Yes. You don't honestly think 12 separate system ressource managements, personae and active nodes with IC and whatnot in them (and all the detection, spoof, sneak and whatnot rolls involved) make things easier either, or do you?

Of course, it could again be solved with a large dose of handwavium and some house rules, and it should, but that kinda brings back the bad old days, doesn't it?

[Morrigana]

Depending on how my group is feeling? We might just toss the entirety of the Matrix rules out the window and have it be simple dice tests. It's a lot less satisfying from an RP perspective, but from an RP perspective, any casino would make their Matrix security so tight that it would take the best hackers in the world to crack it, especially in light of the security features that real-world casinos use. Realistically, there's no way a team of shadowrunners should be able to get past a casino's Matrix security systems, especially in light of the fact said casino would probably easily have a dozen or more hackers running defensive actions and being people backed by the best hacking equipment money can buy and programs that are definitely SOTA.

So, it comes down to hanwavium when the GM wants my group to actually have a chance against security systems like that.

[hermit]

Of course, if your goal was a heist of some sort, agent smith-ing the place with a botnet would be a viable possibility to generate the chaos to pull the heist off ...

Strong encryption + spoof chip = you fail forever, though. Even though it's really the only way to protect yourself from otaku, it's propably something the devs might want to consider for errata.

Still, the new matrix rules are a but suboptimal.

[hobgoblin]

never mind...

[xicidis]

I'm checking out the Three Data Monty now. Thanks. ^^

So, for you guys, a lot of you simplify it down to just a few tests, right? It seems sad to waste whole books of rules, but I can understand your point.

So we're running into Blizzard HQ, the headquarters of the biggest online game of all time, Universe of Starcraft 2. (Sounds good yeah? lol) They break in and get to the server room. They find the server they need. Now the hacker is supposed to break into the server and get some super item and give it to a certain player. Do a "entrance test" a "find the item test" and a "give the item test." Making it an Exploit, Browse, then Edit tests, right? Does that make sense?

[Morrigana]

So, for you guys, a lot of you simplify it down to just a few tests, right? It seems sad to waste whole books of rules, but I can understand your point.

The problem is, some of us find the system to be unnecessarily complicated in some areas and frustratingly unrealistic in others. And it's a lot easier to build a Matrix system now that is almost literally unhackable, even by most technomancers.

So we're running into Blizzard HQ, the headquarters of the biggest online game of all time, Universe of Starcraft 2. (Sounds good yeah? lol) They break in and get to the server room. They find the server they need. Now the hacker is supposed to break into the server and get some super item and give it to a certain player. Do a "entrance test" a "find the item test" and a "give the item test." Making it an Exploit, Browse, then Edit tests, right? Does that make sense?

Sounds about right.

[hobgoblin]

and dont forget the "oh shit" tests for when the IC starts barking (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

anyways, i suspect that the writers had two options when they sat down with SR4.

1. dump the hacker completely (blue planet basically has something like this, where hacking in from the outside is considered basically impossible. its easier to grab some worker and force him to spill the password)

2. turn the computer rules into something close to magic, giving the hacker more to do then just sit in a corner, drooling over a keyboard.

given that the older rules already held some wireless matrix fluff, and rules for allowing hackers to infiltrate rigger systems, it probably made a nice bit of sense that if one went with 2, making things wireless and folding rigger rules into it would be the way to go.

[hermit]

So, for you guys, a lot of you simplify it down to just a few tests, right? It seems sad to waste whole books of rules, but I can understand your point.

It is sad, yes, but it's even sadder that the SR3 matrix rules, all in all, actually work better than 4ths. Talk about missed chances ...

And it's a lot easier to build a Matrix system now that is almost literally unhackable, even by most technomancers.

The problem is, there is no reasonably safe protection anymore. There is either "you're being hacked all the time" or "you are unhackable", with very, very little between those two extremes.

[hobgoblin]

It is sad, yes, but it's even sadder that the SR3 matrix rules, all in all, actually work better than 4ths. Talk about missed chances ...

and i recall people dont bothering with PC deckers because the rules (even the SR3/VR2.0 simplifications) where to bulky and lead to deckers doing a solo game while the rest did a pizza run...

i would say the big failure is AR being immune to black IC, if it had not then one could set up systems where if one got detected snooping on a secure connection, or breaking into system, one would be dead unless one was a very quiet mouse.

now you can just drop to AR, use glasses, gloves and wired reflexes, and the black IC is a joke.

[Morrigana]

It is sad, yes, but it's even sadder that the SR3 matrix rules, all in all, actually work better than 4ths. Talk about missed chances ...

We actually used to have a lot of fun with the SR3 rules. Those people who didn't have decker characters got to have fun playing the security system ^^ Nothing like knowing the people trying to kill you happen to be your fellow players and that it's them you have to outwit.

The problem is, there is no reasonably safe protection anymore. There is either "you're being hacked all the time" or "you are unhackable", with very, very little between those two extremes.

Sadly true.

[Barenziahlover58]

If you built every system like that, then you might as well tell your hacker player to find something else to do during your game. Seriously though, while it makes sense to lock stuff down so no one can break in, you are still playing a game where a player may want to try and hack. If you just tell them no, its impossible, they are going to wonder why they made a hacker in your game.

You can limit their access, but don't cut them all off.

As to the number of nodes, an alternative could be that all of what you mentioned above is in one node. You could still have a ton of ice and spiders, but by oversimplifying the structure, you can keep your game running faster.

You are correct than bussien needed to be connect to the world to work, it is not than ICBM site which will only be connected by line cable which have restrict access. One Hacker did break into the ICBM site an almost start WW3. Afew year back for one weedend no debt or credit card could be use as the only computer that ok these tranaction was shut off due to than near by river overflow it bank and flooding the basement the computer was in, this was in North America and Western Europe , the bank have no backup site to take over runing the debt and credit card network which handle afew trillion dollar aday tranactions. Bussien are very cheap with they money when it come hardware and software and network.
Than wharehouse wouldnot waste million of dollar to safeguard low valus goods like nail and screws as than thief would needed to steal tons of then to make money. Now than wharehouse that have gold, and gems will be very well guarded with top motch security.