How Obvious are the MegaCorps really? Options

[WeaverMount]

Ok, so the RL corporations that have the best bids on being actual megas are terrifyingly far from the public eye. Myriad holdin companies separate the highest level companies from brands people know. Sure Disney, Microsoft, Google, etc are huge and have brand recognition, but they have all gotten about as large as there current model allows, and it's no where near mega status.

My question is: do IC customers associate Ford with Ares, and SoyCaf with Aztechnology? We know that a lot of the car and electronic manufacturers are still around at least in name. Does Sony still get press around the PlayStation e^PI*i, while MCT gets press like Viacom ... which is to say it doesn't.

[BlueMax]

Ok, so the RL corporations that have the best bids on being actual megas are terrifyingly far from the public eye. Myriad holdin companies separate the highest level companies from brands people know. Sure Disney, Microsoft, Google, etc are huge and have brand recognition, but they have all gotten about as large as there current model allows, and it's no where near mega status.

My question is: do IC customers associate Ford with Ares, and SoyCaf with Aztechnology? We know that a lot of the car and electronic manufacturers are still around at least in name. Does Sony still get press around the PlayStation e^PI*i, while MCT gets press like Viacom ... which is to say it doesn't.

We need to get together sometime man. Forbidden Island Alameda? Perhaps on Zombie Sunday?

First, its all up to the GM. Second, it all depends on the Mega. The Korean Megas of today like singular name recognition. You can buy Daewoo everything. From Cars, to guns, to electronis, it says DaeWoo and thats today.

In game, I have some players whose characters try to buy everything Ares. They worship Ares as some new savior. So, they know its Ares but out of want.

I guess the short answer is: Like any other market, its diverse.

[nezumi]

Some of the BIG things people will associate one to the other (like CNN and Time-Warner). Most of the little ones they don't, and they don't care. You're about as likely to know that Ford is part of Ares as you are to know Jeep is part of Daimler-Chrysler now (if you didn't know that, well, there you go).

Interestingly though, Nestle is one of the closest examples of a megacorporation in the modern day, and it's right there in the public eye. It's one of the biggest corporations in the world. But most people when they hear "Nestle" think of chocolate and nothing else. Check out their product list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nestl%C3%A9_brands

[Warlordtheft]

It would be interesting to know who the major share holders are of BP, Exxon Mobil, and Sunocco. One problem with anti-trust rules in the US and Europe is that other countries don't have similar restrictions(Da Beers comes to mind, but since Russia opened its diamond mines their monopoly on the market was weakened). Also, I wonder if Ford still owns stock in Toyota?

Bck to the OP: It really depends. Sometimes they want the recognition with the parent corp. Sometimes they don't. Aztechnology might own the Nuke-it burgers and Stuffer shack franchise, but that does not mean they advertise it as an Aztevh Subsidary (talk about loss of sales in the CAS).

[Backgammon]

Brand recognition is indeed dependant on the Mega. Aztechnology, for example, has next to no brand recognition. As they specialise in consummer product, of the average joe's comsumption, maybe 90% of it goes back up to AZT. But he has no clue.

Other corps are different. Ares likes more brand recognition, for example.

So just as today, it's a corporate marketing choice wether you want lots of branding or less.

[Fyndhal]

About 15 years ago, I was working for a company that got purchased by Matsushita corporation. I'd never heard of the company before, but learned that here in the states, they called themsemselves Panasonic. Doing a little digging ended up revealing that they were one of the largest companies in the world at the time, in terms of holdings. They owned (had majority stock in) Coca-Cola, Paramount Studios and a whole slew of other, smaller companies.

Now, Matsushita/Panasonic is not a Megacorp, by any stretch of the imagination, but the anecdotal evidence should show how easily obfuscated the true monetary situation in 2070 could be. The only thing that makes it even halfway transparent to the average investor is the existence of the corporate court and the constant jockeying for key positions on it. Or, that may just be me speculating. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[masterofm]

Well the question is the ostridge syndrome. How up are the citizenry of the world actually trying to fact find or see what is really going on. Rumors and disinformation are probably prevalent to the point where people might not be able to really find the nuggets of truth. Although something tells me the way Shadowrun is set up most citizenry that matter (aka the ones with SINs) are set up in a way that they don't really have to think for themselves. They have their job, their trids, and their sim sense. Punch in punch out and who gives a crap about the rest of the world as long as their little nitch is protected. If they suffer from this I would think it would be up to the corps to decide if they want to brand the crap out of their other owned corporations. There are really no rules anymore when corps are basically their own soveren nation.

[ornot]

I think that while any given company might not advertise its ties to a parent mega, savvy runners should be able to dig up that information. If they can't, that's probably a bad sign for the runners.

[Snow_Fox]

a lot depends on what the corp wants. Ares or Wuxing seem to want recognition. in the book 2XS the hero dicovers who masisve Yamatetsu is, a AAA corp he'd never heard of.

In RL do you think of 'Ford' when you think of Landrover or Jag's?

In RL in the early 1990's most Americans do not know that Xerox-a well known corp name-was the major importer of Russian vodka. Office equipment met the Xerox corp image. hard liquor did not so that was kept very quiet.

[tenach]

That is crazy. I knew Nestle was big, but I didn't have any idea that they were that large!

I'm sure the transition from the fifth to sixth world gave way to mega-corporations, as there were no governments that were able to maintain control and "order" among their nations.

[TheOOB]

Its kinda like how things are now. Everybody knows that Viacom owns a ton of television stations, but they don't realize how big Viacom is until they lose access to them because of a dispute with their cable company.

Everyone knows the megas are big and have their fingers in lots of pies, and the info, for the most part, is out there, but most people don't realize just how big.

[Snow_Fox]

right, they might not want you to know how big they are. There are a lot of food companies like that, they own a lot of the common brand names you know but you don't know they're attached.

I think it's been sold off now, but for a while a great many fast food chains in the US Bruger King/Taco Bell/ KFC were all owned by the same corp. I suspect that might be how Aztechnology is. People know the name but don't know how pervasive it is in their homes

[Dr Funfrock]

Your go to resource for this topic is Corporate Download (Corp Guide should be useful when it hits).

In general it's going to vary from Mega to Mega. Ares have a tendancy to slap their name on everything; see all the Ares branded weapons in the gear list. They have subsidiaries like Ares Arms, Ares Space, Ares Small Arms, Ares Global Entertainment, and so on. This is largely because they have a great corporate image (bolstered by huge publicity stunts like "clearing" Bug City), so there's a definite brand recognition going on. However even Ares has a lot of subsidiaries that aren't associated directly with their name; General Moters, Hard Corps, Leviathan Technical, Lifescape, Mostrans, Osprey Technical Publications, Weapons World (who will stock a range of product, but will get preferential prices on Ares products, which will get the best shelf space), National Broadcasting Service, and Apple Computer Products are just a few of those listed. Starting to see why they're so huge in America?

Now in comparison it's specifically stated that the problem with Aztechnology is that they carefully obfuscate all of their holdings, so you never know where they are. The lists in Corporate Download are stated to be just a few "known" subsidiaries, and don't even include all of the multitude of brand-names that they own.

Horizon isn't covered by Corporate Download, but we know from the material available that they've been making big pushes to get their name recognised. The stunt with Pulsar and the Technomancers was a huge PR play. Their subsidiaries are problably fairly open about being connected to Horizon, so as to benefit from that same publicity (since Horizon is pretty small they can't really afford to have both open and quiet subsidiaries the way Ares seems to).

A good yardstick seems to be having a browse through the various gear lists and seeing what jumps out at you. Evo (who used to be the afforementioned Yamatetsu of course) have this huge rep for Meta friendly products, but how many "Evo" branded items can you find? This really matches up with the 2XS stuff about them being this invisible corporation with huge holdings. To the ordinary consumer they're not really obvious; but all of the brand names that they own will have a great rep as "Meta-friendly" products, even if people don't connect one with the other. Same goes for Seader-Krupp, another corp well known for being pretty devious about it's holdings, and no surprise there: Joe consumer is still going be twitchy about buying from a corp run by a dragon. SK really benefits from disconnecting themselves from what they own.

[hobgoblin]

Apple Computer Products

you got to be kidding me... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[MaxMahem]

Interestingly though, Nestle is one of the closest examples of a megacorporation in the modern day, and it's right there in the public eye. It's one of the biggest corporations in the world. But most people when they hear "Nestle" think of chocolate and nothing else. Check out their product list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nestl%C3%A9_brands

I don't know about that. Something must be going right over at Nestle marketing department as they are continually brought up as a modern day example of a mega-corp, when in reality, while big, they really aren't that big on a global scale. They don't even make it into the top 50 of the worlds largest companies. If you want a good example of a modern day SR style mega-corp, you should look no farther then GE. Just barely out of the top 10 in terms of corporate size, and vastly diversified corporate holdings (the own a huge chunk of NBC for example). GE is mostly likely the direct inspiration for Ares in SR.

Sorry to but in, but I guess one of my pet peeves is people who assume that some random corp is actually a big mover and shaker, dwarfing the likes of corporate giants like Wal-Mart or Exxon-Mobile (not saying you are guilty of this BTW) when in reality the worlds largest corps are your usual suspects, Wal-Mart, Oil Corporations, and Big Finance companies.

I think it's been sold off now, but for a while a great many fast food chains in the US Bruger King/Taco Bell/ KFC were all owned by the same corp.

Not sure about Burger King, but the other two (along with Pizza Hut and some others) are owned by Yum! Brands which was spun off from Pepsi Co. some time ago. In SR this would likely have been a clever ploy of some sort and Yum Brands would still be entirely owned by Aztechnology or whoever. In reality even their relationship with PepsiCo remains very tight (they have a lifetime contract for Pepsi contracts for example). PepsiCo also owns the FritoLay brand which makes Fritos Doritos and Cheetos.

[Dr Funfrock]

PepsiCo also owns the FritoLay brand which makes Fritos Doritos and Cheetos.

Not just Doritos and Cheetos, FritoLay make pretty much all the major brands of chips out there; in addition to those mentioned they have Lays, Tostitos, and the Walkers brand, which completely dominates the UK snack market. That's not counting all the other companies they supply to, who just buy up the product and stick a different lable on it. Just think about the collosal market coverage there; now imagine that their parent corporation, PepsiCo (who also own Gatorade, Quaker and Tropicana), is in turn owned by Aztechnology, and you're starting to see how inescapable the Big A's reach is.

[nezumi]

I think it's been sold off now, but for a while a great many fast food chains in the US Bruger King/Taco Bell/ KFC were all owned by the same corp.

Actually, I suspect the brief run of "Kentaco Huts" sort of illustrated that connection (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I don't know about that. Something must be going right over at Nestle marketing department as they are continually brought up as a modern day example of a mega-corp, when in reality, while big, they really aren't that big on a global scale.

Nestle is often picked on because of the whole starving African babies fiasco. Wal-mart has as of yet to get tied up in anything quite so damning, and everyone already knows bankers eat babies. Plus the example of big corporations we are looking for isn't necessarily those with the most money, but those with the most consumer products under their umbrella that we don't recognize as such.

[hobgoblin]

its like a inverse chinese box or something...

btw, while i was looking into something on a unrelated subject, i bumped into a entry in runners companion that indicates that ares may have some japanese holdings (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

check table on page 150...

[Dr Funfrock]

Ares have been trying to break into Japan for a while now. It's tricky, because the Japanacorps are fiercely protectionist, but there's been no shortage of effort according to the fluff.

[AllTheNothing]

its like a inverse chinese box or something...

btw, while i was looking into something on a unrelated subject, i bumped into a entry in runners companion that indicates that ares may have some japanese holdings (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

check table on page 150...

Sorry but I don't get it.
Does docomo mean something in japanese?

[ornot]

Check out wikipedia for an answer.

[JeffSz]

News Corporation
Disney
GE

Those are the heaviest hitters I can recall. The book "Free Culture" is an excellent resource for info on current-day "megacorp"-esque corps. You'd be surprised how much Disney owns...

Edit: List of News Corporation holdings: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/News_Corporation#Holdings

Another Edit: List of global conglomerates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_conglomerates

[hobgoblin]

one start to wonder that, if people are not aware of it, news corporation can fabricate something by having its diverse holding reinforce each others reports...

[ornot]

They wouldn't even need to own the other news companies, simply be considered sufficiently reliable that other news distributers take their word for it.

I used to read papers for a living, and the lack of actual investigation for many stories was astonishing. Most stories were just repeats of a bulletin released by AP or Reuters.

You can't take anything you see or hear at face value. Everyone has an agenda.

[hobgoblin]

and if one really take that path of thinking to the extreme, one end up on some hilltop with a shotgun in hand, making sure others stay at an acceptable distance...

[AllTheNothing]

They wouldn't even need to own the other news companies, simply be considered sufficiently reliable that other news distributers take their word for it.

I used to read papers for a living, and the lack of actual investigation for many stories was astonishing. Most stories were just repeats of a bulletin released by AP or Reuters.

You can't take anything you see or hear at face value. Everyone has an agenda.

Isn't this what's more or less happened the first time Bush run for president (against Gore)?

[BookWyrm]

How obvious are the Megacorps? As obvious as they want to be.

[AllTheNothing]

How obvious are the Megacorps? As obvious as they want to be.

What does a 10'000 years old dragon do?
How obvious are the corps?
Whatever it wants however it wants.

(It means I agreed)

Yet since the advent of the Matrix 2.0 the information flux is less controllable by the big boys so there might be a little more trasparence than before, not much but a little more anyway.

[Earlydawn]

Everybody is correct insofar as the public's lack of detailed understanding; everybody knows that Horizon is a multimedia conglomerate, but they probably don't have the slightest clue how many outlets they own. There's also a difference on the back-end. Average joes have a level of corporate knowledge that scales between minimal and none. Most corporate drones probably have a picture of their company's structure, with a resolution that gets sharper the higher in the management ladder you get. Corporate leaders (above high-management) would obviously have a crystal-clear understanding of their house's structure and holdings, minus anything considered sensitive or restricted. Professional runners probably can't see the whole picture without significant research and insiders, but know that blowing up an Ares launch facility will hurt the bottom line of the space division next fiscal year.

[Cardul]

Everybody is correct insofar as the public's lack of detailed understanding; everybody knows that Horizon is a multimedia conglomerate, but they probably don't have the slightest clue how many outlets they own.

Joe Sarariman, even if he works at Horizon, probably does not even know about the Dawkins Group. Though, of course, I am sure everyone who works at a location with the big Aztechnology Logo knows: Mess up, and being fired is the least of your worries..though they probably do not(necessarily) know that it involves having your still beating heart ripped from your chest!(Then again...maybe they DO know...)

[Dr Funfrock]

Well, nobody knows about the Dawkin's Group because they're a top secret social engineering project / industrial espionage wing. You don't really advertise that sort of thing.

[BookWyrm]

What does a 10'000 years old dragon do?
How obvious are the corps?
Whatever it wants however it wants.

(It means I agreed)

Yet since the advent of the Matrix 2.0 the information flux is less controllable by the big boys so there might be a little more trasparence than before, not much but a little more anyway.

True, ATN; but it still boils down to spin control.

What does a 10,000 year-old Dragon do? Whatever & whenever it wants, as long as he/she can get away with it.
(News-title: "Apparent Dragon Attack Explained As Unfortunate 'Mating Ritual' Badly Timed.")
How obvious are the Megacorps? As obvious as they want to be, without getting into too much trouble.
(News-title: "Megacorps' Recall Of Faulty Dietary Supplement Blamed On Mislableing Of Materials.")

[AllTheNothing]

True, ATN; but it still boils down to spin control.

What does a 10,000 year-old Dragon do? Whatever & whenever it wants, as long as he/she can get away with it.
(News-title: "Apparent Dragon Attack Explained As Unfortunate 'Mating Ritual' Badly Timed.")
How obvious are the Megacorps? As obvious as they want to be, without getting into too much trouble.
(News-title: "Megacorps' Recall Of Faulty Dietary Supplement Blamed On Mislableing Of Materials.")

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[nezumi]

Corporate leaders (above high-management) would obviously have a crystal-clear understanding of their house's structure and holdings, minus anything considered sensitive or restricted.

I would have to disagree with this. Going from a classic Cyberpunk reading, the corporations have evolved to the point where they almost have a life of their own. Damien Knight doesn't know that the CEO for Creyon Petrochemicals has recently bought a significant part of Mission Ops. drone production, or that in turn, that La Cosa Nostra has bought a controlling portion of Creyon through their own shell corporations. In fact, the second crash seems to indicate in part that trading happens so quickly, it outpaces people. Computers will buy and sell investments automatically and regularly, following the market. It would be a full time job just keeping up with the current holdings of a single arm of Ares, muchless the whole beast.

The CEO would, in theory, know (or have access to) all of the permanent or semi-permanent holdings, and have a general understanding of the temporary or anticipated holdings. But he'll never understand the whole picture.

[Wesley Street]

one start to wonder that, if people are not aware of it, news corporation can fabricate something by having its diverse holding reinforce each others reports...

While it makes for a nice conspiracy theory, it doesn't hold a whole lot of water in real life. It's actually quite a task to get various corporate holdings in line even if they're under the same corporate umbrella, like News Corp. If you want a hilarious example, Fox News wanted to sue Fox Entertainment for a rather unflattering parody of their typical anti-Democratic rhetoric in an episode of The Simpsons. From that example it leads me to believe that trying to keep all of your corporate assets in line is like herding cats.

[hobgoblin]

heh, thanks for reminding me. iirc, sony ones sued sony, this however was indirectly as a member of two organizations, one suing the other...

[imperialus]

Interestingly though, Nestle is one of the closest examples of a megacorporation in the modern day, and it's right there in the public eye. It's one of the biggest corporations in the world. But most people when they hear "Nestle" think of chocolate and nothing else. Check out their product list:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nestl%C3%A9_brands

Kraft is the other big one in this industry.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kraft_Foods#Brands

[Aluman]

To me 'megacorp today' can be summed up with one company Berkshirehathway Some people recognize the name, for those of you who don't, this is the company that Warren Buffet runs. It is one of the richest and most divested conglemrate companies in the world. It owns: Dairy Queen, GEICO, Enron (Which is now a holding company holding several key electrical generation companies in the US, accounting for ~30% of the US electrical output). it is one of the largest share holders of Coca-cola and Disney, it grosses over one hundred billion dollars manually, and companies live or die based on what it does (Wrigley was recently acquired in a join move by BH and Mars, Inc)

Edit> Yet in general they do not advertise themselves, when they own a company (Acme Brick for instance) They let it run itself.

Edit2> And then there are single market companies who are ridiciliously large, but are never directly heard about, like De Beers. De Beers is responsible for over 80% of diamonds in the world (Down some from two years ago due to Russian and Canadian interests), yet they didn't focus on their name and instead made diamonds an Engagement/Love related item. They rarely sell directly to the public instead selling to brokers who sell to importers who sell to jewelers. But if you have bought anything diamond in the past decade odds are, the De Beer company made money on it.

Oh and on the issue of food companies: ConAgra and General Mills take my nod for largest/most secrtive style. Especially GM. I mean everyone knows the cereals, but the list of products General Mills makes is nigh on endless.

[Kanada Ten]

It's not about how many brand names they control; it's not x offices in x cities in x countries that makes a megacorp. A megacorp is more than a "really big" corporation; it is a nation, a country unto itself. It doesn't just have its own army: it has its own currency. A megacorp is a place, a world, a way of life: where you can be born a Renraku citizen in a Renraku hospital delivered by Renraku doctors to Renraku parents and grow up going to Renraku preschool, primary school, graduate school, all the while pledging your alligence to the Renraku flag. With the right grades - or connections - you choose one of the many Renraku colleges or technical schools to finish your education before working in a Renraku office, spending your nights watching Renraku simfeeds or dancing at Renraku nightclubs, vacationing at Renraku resorts during your allotted time. Everything you buy, eat and breathe is stamped with the Renraku fractal, and its sight fills you with pride. Finally, you retire to a Renraku eldercare facility before being buried in a Renraku cemetery or burned in a Renraku furnace, all the time praying for an afterlife in Renraku heaven, where Uncle Aneki hands out Renraku toys to his good little children.

[hobgoblin]

*

[hobgoblin]

*

[hobgoblin]

external capitalism, internal communism (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Mr. Grey]

And just think there are people out there that actually own major stock in not just one but several of the megas. I.E. Dunkelzahn.

[Mr. Grey]

Wheels within wheels.

[hobgoblin]

enough wheels to give a super-jumbo a run for the money...

[nezumi]

And just think there are people out there that actually own major stock in not just one but several of the megas. I.E. Dunkelzahn.

Major as in like 1% (i.e., millions of dollars)? Or major as in controlling interest? Because I suspect anyone owning a controlling interest in a megacorp is very, very rare. I'm betting even Lofwyr has sold off his controlling interest (and why not? He's CEO, not to mention, CED (Chief Executive Dragon), and he can just eat whoever disagrees with him. Better to invest that money elsewhere now.)

[Kanada Ten]

Major as in like 1% (i.e., millions of dollars)? Or major as in controlling interest? Because I suspect anyone owning a controlling interest in a megacorp is very, very rare. I'm betting even Lofwyr has sold off his controlling interest (and why not? He's CEO, not to mention, CED (Chief Executive Dragon), and he can just eat whoever disagrees with him. Better to invest that money elsewhere now.)

Controlling interest is the rule, rather than the exception among Triple-As, IIRC. Some are even wholely privately owned, such as Shiawase.

[Malachi]

Saeder-Krupp is also Private.

[InfinityzeN]

Lofwyr owns 100% of SK and I don't think that will change as long as he is still alive and kicking.

[AllTheNothing]

Controlling interest is the rule, rather than the exception among Triple-As, IIRC. Some are even wholely privately owned, such as Shiawase.

The stock dreck that went down in System Failure seems to hint that Shiawase shares are aviable on the stock market.

[AllTheNothing]

Lofwyr owns 100% of SK and I don't think that will change as long as he is still alive and kicking.

Only aproximatively the 99,9%, in the BBB is stated that S-K is owned almost wholy by Lowfyr (ALMOST).
Also since when dragons kick? They have much better reach with jaws, talons, breath (whatever never offer a mint to a dragon), spells, underlings, hired workforce; they have much better options aviable, why should they kick?

[Kanada Ten]

The stock dreck that went down in System Failure seems to hint that Shiawase shares are aviable on the stock market.

Strange that they'd kill the only interesting thing about that corp. I was looking forwards to the Emperor of Japan having his own pet mega, too.

[nezumi]

Lofwyr owns 100% of SK and I don't think that will change as long as he is still alive and kicking.

Why would he possibly want to do that? That makes no sense. He has just as much control over SK with 50.00001% as he does with 99.999%. The difference being, as he's in the process of buying that last 49.999998%, the stock prices go up, since he's basically competing with himself. And now that he has SK, all that money is basically doing nothing (in regards to power plays). 99.9999% doesn't give him any more control over SK or any other corporation, but 50.00001% in SK and 33% in Ares gives him complete control of SK and substantial control over Ares.

[InfinityzeN]

Why would he possibly want to do that? That makes no sense. He has just as much control over SK with 50.00001% as he does with 99.999%. The difference being, as he's in the process of buying that last 49.999998%, the stock prices go up, since he's basically competing with himself. And now that he has SK, all that money is basically doing nothing (in regards to power plays). 99.9999% doesn't give him any more control over SK or any other corporation, but 50.00001% in SK and 33% in Ares gives him complete control of SK and substantial control over Ares.

Only one problem with your little write up. SK is private, meaning that there is no stocks. And for the longest time, the Wizworm owned 100% of the company (pretty much SR1 to SR3). I'm surprised that he parted out any of it at all, but if I had to guess, I would say that he gave fractions of a % share to his most loyal followers (IE: His Voice and such).

[Kanada Ten]

Private companies don't have to have stock holder meetings, they don't have to post earnings, they don't have to explain or expose their actions to anyone. Quiet simply Lofwry would never need the money enough to overcome his meglomania. He could sell stocks in profitable subsidiaries, should he need a cash influx. And owning SK doesn't prevent him from owning Ares stock, either.

Damien Knight, IIRC, went the 51 percent route with Ares, and look at all the trouble it caused him.

[hyzmarca]

Only one problem with your little write up. SK is private, meaning that there is no stocks. And for the longest time, the Wizworm owned 100% of the company (pretty much SR1 to SR3). I'm surprised that he parted out any of it at all, but if I had to guess, I would say that he gave fractions of a % share to his most loyal followers (IE: His Voice and such).

Private corporations have stock, it's just that their stock isn't publicly traded.

Anyway, the best advantage of owning practically all of a megacorp comes in the form of dividends. A megacorp earns many trillions annually, a large portion of that goes back into the corp, but the rest goes straight into shareholders' pockets based on the number of stocks that they own. And if you own all of the stocks of a AAA, that's trillions going directly into your bank account.

[MaxMahem]

Actually there may be a downside to Lofwry giving up any control of his stock. Even if the stock is still privately held, and/or contains provisions preventing its transfer to others, its still stock. That is, it represents part ownership of the company. Now, if Lofwry still holds a majority he can still make all the decisions, but, depending upon the corporate charter, some decisions may require a super-majority or even unanimous decsisions to make. Now depending upon the actual agreements in place, this may not be a factor. Heck, those other issues of stock may not even confer voting rights.

But if its still stock, it still represents part ownership of the company. And as much as Lofwry may hate it, this means he must be, in some ways, somewhat beholden to their desires. There are many ways even minority, non-voting shareholders can impress their wishes on the company. The most prominent is that they can file suit against the corporation and get the courts (the corporate court in the case I suppose) to issue judgments against the company forcing it to changes its ways, pay damages, ect. Another way is to utilise the fact that corporate shareholders are in some situations empowered to take actions on behalf of the company, especially if the company itself refuses to take action.

Now obviously someone deciding to strike back against Lofwry in this way would have to have balls of steel, but it could make for an interesting set of shadowruns, thats for sure! And just think of the legend such a business man might make for himself if he was to succeed. Possible cannidates for such a manuver include any other Dragon's that might hold SK stock (a very dragonish manuver a minority suit I seem to think). Damien Knight, especially if SK makes moves against Ares, or maybe even that fixer guy Lofwry uses all the time who's name escapes me... after all its the ones closest to you who is best placed to drive the knife in your back.

---

Another concept to consider is that while Lofwry might not have all that much to loose by giving up stock in his company (even taking all of what I said above, its likely a minor risk at most for him), he is a Dragon and might think differently about it then we do. Lofwry probably does not play well with others, and probably does not enjoy the idea of sharring ownership of HIS coporation. Which is why those stocks might revert to him on their owners death... and maybe Lofwry has decided he wants that particular bit of stock back about now...

Just some thoughts....

[Warlordtheft]

According to the BBB, Lofwyr owns 63% of SK. This effectively means that he is in control. While he could do the same at 50.1%, this ensures that he doesn't accidentally sell the company to someone else. Being a dragon I don't think he would fall for it at 50.1%, but I'm pretty sure he is buying and selling SK stock all the time. He knows when the price is going to rise, and knows when it is going to fall. If that doesn't happen as he expects it, executives get an invitation to dinner.

[Panzergeist]

Personally, I don't expect megacorps like the ones in Shadowrun to arise. The thing is, conglomerates suck. Not suck as in they screw the consumer for their own benefit, but suck as in they underperform and nobody benefits, except maybe their competitors. Study after study over the last few decades has shown that, with very few exceptions, companies focused on a single line of business perform better. The only way cyberpunk has been able to make the concept of megacorps halfway plausible has been to propose a breakdown in government control which allows bigger companies to simply bully smaller ones through violence, blackmail, insider trading, and anticompetitive agreements, and none of those actually get around the problem of companies losing efficiency as they diversify.

[hobgoblin]

companies focused on a single line of business perform better.

and also seems to hit a brick wall when it comes to growth at some point. and as just about everyone wants to see continual growth (no matter how impossible that is, given physics), they start to spread out...

[nezumi]

The only way cyberpunk has been able to make the concept of megacorps halfway plausible has been to propose a breakdown in government control which allows bigger companies to simply bully smaller ones through violence, blackmail, insider trading, and anticompetitive agreements, and none of those actually get around the problem of companies losing efficiency as they diversify.

Not only loss of government control, but loss of government services. If the government can no longer provide safe housing, cheap and dependable power generation, etc. etc., the corporation that can provide it for itself wins. If Ares toothbrush manufacturing has power 24/7, while Bob's toothbrush manufacturing loses power from 6-9pm every night and 11am-3pm during the summer, Ares will win, even if Ares is less efficient for running their own power generation to boot.

This creates a vicious cycle because once Ares provides its own power, security, etc., it firstly no longer has to pay the state for these utilities, and secondly actively wants to derail the state machinary (because it kills all the small-fries). Ares actively benefits from keeping society close to anarchy, because all corporations need stability to thrive, and only the big ones can provide internal stability.

[hobgoblin]

in the end one start to wonder if the corporations of shadowrun no longer is in the biz of earning money, but providing stability in exchange for virtual enslavement.

i guess its one of those surviving themes from cyberpunk. one i suspect is potentially based on a misunderstanding of the japanese work ethic or something. maybe with a bit of henry ford thrown in for kicks. but in the end its all based on the US work environment, one i cant even begin to grasp.

[Phase Space]

MaxMahem is correct. To pass ordinary resolutions at board level you need >50% of voting stock. But to pass special resolutions you need >75% and these are only standard resolutions a firms charter may incorporate certain situations that require resolutions to be passed by even greater proportions.

As to my Lofwyr might want more than 50% of the company. Getting 75% will bid up price but when he gets it Lofwyr can delist the company to private status. His share price is no longer a visible indicator of sucess so he doesn't need to worry about it tanking when he halts dividend payments. Anyone holding stock now has an investment that they won't get any return on and they can't sell on the stock exchange they have to find a private buyer - who will get on Lofwyr's sh*t list!).

Once this happens you might as well sell up. When Lofwyr gets 90% he can make a compulsory purchase of any remaining stock. If the diehard shareholder has >10% of stock left and Lofwyr has a typical dragon's "I don't share" attitude he might put out a call for "deniable assets"...

[InfinityzeN]

I'm still trying to figure out why Lofwyr sold some 37% of his companies stock. Ahhhh, I found the fail where you got the 63% from. That was his initial purchase, before forcing through a management buyout that made him the sole owner.

In 2032, Beloit died and his wife Mrs. Wilhelmina Graff-Beloit took over control of the company. She had, like her husband before her, a minority stake in the company, but controlled the executive committee. Five years later, in 2037, the Great Dragon consolidated ownerships in a number of shells, making him the majority shareholder with 63% of S-K capital. The dragon voted himself as President, Wilhelmina Graff-Beloit out of the board, and a management buyout to make him the unique shareholders of S-K. Graff-Beloit made an attempt to prevent this, but failed. She fell into obscurity (only moving to Zurich-Orbital in 2050).

Too bad, so sad, Lofwyr does own 100% of the company, minus any little fractions he might hand out to people he chooses. Which, at any time, he can force a buyout of and instantly return to 100%.

[nezumi]

in the end one start to wonder if the corporations of shadowrun no longer is in the biz of earning money, but providing stability in exchange for virtual enslavement.

I certainly think it is (at least in some locales). That may be why nations like the NAN and the Tir are more hostile towards corporations compared to the UCAS.

MaxMahem is correct. To pass ordinary resolutions at board level you need >50% of voting stock. But to pass special resolutions you need >75% and these are only standard resolutions a firms charter may incorporate certain situations that require resolutions to be passed by even greater proportions.

Your post is very interesting. It explains a lot. However, how come when he got to 75% he couldn't change the rules and move it so at 50.1% he has full control over all special resolutions, et al.? Is that limit set by federal law or something?

[imperialus]

Your post is very interesting. It explains a lot. However, how come when he got to 75% he couldn't change the rules and move it so at 50.1% he has full control over all special resolutions, et al.? Is that limit set by federal law or something?

Long established practices, Federal Law in the US right now, and I expect Corporate Court Law in the 6th world. I doubt even Lofwyr would want to take the CC on.

[hobgoblin]

remind me, is or is not S-K a eurocorp?

still, given that shadowrun was created by US people, it would not surprise me if it basically because US == WORLD, like it all to often becomes (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Wesley Street]

S-K, 'tis German. Based in Essen and the largest of the megacorps.

Actually, when Shadowrun was first released it was using the late-80s pre-financial-crash-Japan-rules-the-world model so most of the megacorps were Japanese: Mitsuhama, Yamatetsu, Fuchi, Renraku, and Shiawase. Only Aztechnology, Ares and Saeder-Krupp were non-Japanese.

[AllTheNothing]

S-K, 'tis German. Based in Essen and the largest of the megacorps.

Actually, when Shadowrun was first released it was using the late-80s pre-financial-crash-Japan-rules-the-world model so most of the megacorps were Japanese: Mitsuhama, Yamatetsu, Fuchi, Renraku, and Shiawase. Only Aztechnology, Ares and Saeder-Krupp were non-Japanese.

It's a kind of inaccurate to say that AA and AAA corps belong to a nation, they are multinationals that own pretty much half of the world, obviously the management mindasset of the corps can be influenced to greater degree by a certain culture and in the case of japanacorps it is appropriate to say that they are japanese, but with other corps? S-K culture isn't german it's draconian, what makes it an eurocorp is that Lofwyr wants to rule the continent so has invested most of his resources and effort in it (if he didn't give a frag about it and wanted Australia S-K would be australian); Ares can be said that it is american, but seriously it's more PR and a nice "internal culture" thing that helps to keep loyal its employes; Fuchi has always been a Hydra of a corp, the japanese might have wished that it was purely japanese but Fuchi America prevented it, than it went belly up and ultimately it became an euro-american corp; the Azzies aren't aztlanders, it's Aztlan that is a subsidiary of Aztechnology; Yamatetsu was a full fledged japanacorp until their racism got them on the wrong side of an ork who happened to be a major shareholder and to have the support of Buttercup, than trown the japanese brand out of the window becoming one of the most globaly minded corporations.
Well maybe we have to wait the Corp Book to know more about it.

[MaxMahem]

Your post is very interesting. It explains a lot. However, how come when he got to 75% he couldn't change the rules and move it so at 50.1% he has full control over all special resolutions, et al.? Is that limit set by federal law or something?

What rules a corporation operates under is dictate both by its charter, and by state and federal laws. In the SR setting I imagine the corporate court would dictate what terms for the charter would and would not be valid.

Since the books are obviously a little vague on what the status of corporate law is in the 6th world, the GM should feel free to make up whatever would best suit his plot. There are lots of potential runs that could result from disputes over corporate law, the old corporate books had some good details on this.

[Wesley Street]

It's a kind of inaccurate to say that AA and AAA corps belong to a nation, they are multinationals that own pretty much half of the world, obviously the management mindasset of the corps can be influenced to greater degree by a certain culture and in the case of japanacorps it is appropriate to say that they are japanese, but with other corps? S-K culture isn't german it's draconian, what makes it an eurocorp is that Lofwyr wants to rule the continent so has invested most of his resources and effort in it (if he didn't give a frag about it and wanted Australia S-K would be australian); Ares can be said that it is american, but seriously it's more PR and a nice "internal culture" thing that helps to keep loyal its employes; Fuchi has always been a Hydra of a corp, the japanese might have wished that it was purely japanese but Fuchi America prevented it, than it went belly up and ultimately it became an euro-american corp; the Azzies aren't aztlanders, it's Aztlan that is a subsidiary of Aztechnology; Yamatetsu was a full fledged japanacorp until their racism got them on the wrong side of an ork who happened to be a major shareholder and to have the support of Buttercup, than trown the japanese brand out of the window becoming one of the most globaly minded corporations.

No, the megacorps don't belong to a nation any more than a modern corporation belongs to one. It belongs to its shareholder(s). But the cultural influence and business practices of a corporation's nation of origin are always there. I can't think of anything more properly German or Western European, in a mythological context, than a dragon and anything more appropriately German from a business stand-point, than having your industries focused on heavy industry, oil, and BMW cars. Ares is all about the guns and Motor City culture and that's stereotypically American. Yes, Aztlan is a subsidiary of Aztechnology but Aztechnology is run as a blood religion based on ancient Aztech/pre-Mexican practices that also happens to be a business.

Toyota is an international corporation but Toyota is run like a Japanese company, not like an American one. Just because a company has a global reach doesn't mean it's lost its roots. And like someone posted earlier, there's no real-life counterpart for a megacorp. It would be like if a Wal-Mart HQ was mashed with the Vatican.

[FlakJacket]

99.9999% doesn't give him any more control over SK or any other corporation, but 50.00001% in SK and 33% in Ares gives him complete control of SK and substantial control over Ares.

Doesn't one of the books mention that it's against the rules for one AAA corporation to own a large chunk of another or an individual that owns controlling interest in one a large chunk of another? I could have sworn that if it wasn't a hard and fast Corporate Court rule then it pretty much a definitive unwritten one that was understood by all.