New to Shadowrun: Need advice Options

[Solstice]

Hey guys,

I'm new to Shadowrun but a veteran of Rifts and AD&D. I've built a character (took awhile sheesh), and she is not an effective component of the group. I am really looking to build an effective (not munchkin) covert ops specialist. I was unfamiliar with the other characters in the group and after the first session I found that they are both heavily combat oriented.

Needless to say we have alot of trouble achieving the most basic non combat goals of our current run. The GM has given me the go ahead to redesign my character to more complement the group.
From what I understand covert ops characters are more skill oriented.

The problem I had in the first game session was that I lacked the proper skills and/or skill levels to complete non-combat objectives. I ended up almost getting captured while infiltrating a corp facility and attempting to place a datatap. I could not even get a basic mag lock open to get in.

I'm a little confused about the skills system of shadowrun. It appears totally amorphous and you can make up just about any skill you want.

I am also confused about how/when skills are used (like why does a non decker need computer skills?).

I am also confused about how knowledge skills relate to active skills (if they do). E.g. electronics and electronics background.

First off, if anyone can reccomend a good design for a covert ops oriented character that would be great. I have my own ideas which I will include here:

Skills (A)
Athletics: 4
SMG (Ingrams): 5 (7)
Pistols: 6
Stealth: 6
Computers: 4
Electronics: 6
Electronics B/R: 5
Unarmed combat (Akido): 4
Demolitions (plasitc): 4 (6)
Ettiquette (Corp): 3 (5)
Negotiation: 3


Knowledge skills
Lone Star Tactics: 3
Electronics Background:4
Computer Theory: 4
Megacorporate Security: 4
Security Procedures: 4
Demolitions Background: 3
Security Design (Corporate): 4 (6)
Electronic Warfare: 4

Resources (B): 400,000

Attributes ©:
Body: 3
Strength: 4
Quickness:6
Intelligence:6
Willpower: 2
Charisma: 3

Any advice on cyberwear/bioware would be great. I plan on using espionage related eyewear and skillsofts as well as electronic warfare related gear.

thanks in advance for the help.

[Grey]

You may want to pick up a few more points in Etiquette and Negotiations. Having socal skills can get you out of a lot of situations. Having a Willpower of 1 is a bad move, you also didn't list what your charisma is. If the rest of the party is heavy on the combat side, you may want to drop a few points from Strength and put it in Willpower and Charisma.

[Solstice]

[Lilt]

Yowch, I'd buy some charisma to start with, you need to have all stats at at-least 1 or you go into a coma or something. Bio/Cyberware can boost your physical attributes a bit if you need it. Strength 6 is far more than I'd give cvops. You'll want a good willpower as it affects combat pool (which you can use to either dodge or help hit stuff).

It's noteable that your character will probably be more effective if you took resources A and dropped skills to B. Then you could buy lots of expencive cyber/bioware which can boost your attributes, skills, dice pools, reflexes, whatever.

[Lilt]

[Solstice]

ok i edited the first post to reflect the proper attributes and changed some skills.

The first time I made this character I did take resources as A but it seemed a bit overkill and my essence ran out anyway. Do you know how much head memory kills your essence? It's really hard to use skillsofts to make up for skills IMO. But I will try some things using 1,000,000 nuyen. The first time i made the character I bought a tactical computer.....really dumb of me.

[toturi]

You might want to have less skills and more Attributes, IMO. That low a Willpower will get you dead in a heartbeat. Since you are covert, maybe you might to want to try to reduce your strength to boost your will.

If you are planning to be a more rounded covert ops, perhaps you can try to get skills on chips. A skill rating of 3 is borderline okay, 4 would be safer.

One more thing, I'm not aware that Security is an Active skill. I don't even think that Security is even a Knowledge skill. Security Procedures, Sec Design, Sec Companies but I've not seen Security.

[Rev]

Drop one of the firearms skills. Choose depending on the combat threat level vs need to hide weapons in your game (in some games pistols cant hurt anything and concealability does not matter, others reverse that). Be sure you own one silenced/supressed weapon, and one intended for more obvious combat.

You need electronics b/r as well as electronics. The rules are really annoying on this. You must have both skills. Various tests specify one or the other and, to me anyway, which is specified appears to be fairly arbitrary. Also look at the maglock passkey, and maglock sequencer equipment in the main book.

The computer skill lets you use computers. So say you know a password or something you could use a computer. You could also search up legally available info on the net. If you had a cyberdeck and programs you could even deck. Possibly you could pick one up after you play a while and become a low level decker.

More ettiquette is always good, but you have a good corp rating.

Negotiation skill is what you use to talk yourself past people, so it is something to consider.

If you have man and machine there is a bit of gear called a lockpick gun which is very cheap (250Y times rating, so 1500Y for a rating 6, then buy a rating 10 soon after chargen, unless the gm will let you buy one right away) to pick mechanical locks. Otherwise that is another skill you might want to get (if your gm uses mechanical locks anywhere, they are supposed to be obsolete but people seem to love them probably because players dont even know there is such a skill so cannot defeat them).

Security(corporate) sounds like a knowledge skill, and seems redundant with some of the knowledge skills you have listed.

Good cyber/bioware for this (mostly from man and machine) includes:
retractable climbing claws
balance augmentor
microscopic vision
hearing amplifier
sound filter (if it still exists as cyberware)
enhanced articulation
datajack
knowsoft link (lets you know any language instantly for a few hundred newyen, and other knowledge skills too)
encephalon (task pool, mmm)
cerebral booster (task pool, mmm)

Get a little bit of reflex enhancement. Maybe boosted reflexes 1 or a synaptic accellerator (which is very difficult to detect). The idea is to have just enough to beat a regular person who stumbles across you.

Be sure you have electronics and demolitions toolkits.


Oh yea, and in sr3 I have never made a charachter without A or B attributes except for riggers. With skills costing double when greater than their linked attribute and all the other bonuses from attributes it just never seems to make sense for anybody else.

Oh Oh yea, and remember that your character isn't the combat specialist. When the fighting starts your job is to not get killed .

[Solstice]

interesting things you say. I doubt attributes A would be a good idea. Then nuyen would have to be B and skills C. I HIGHLY doubt that you could build an effective covrt ops with 60% of your skills coming from skillsofts since any skillsoft with a rating higher than 3 eats up more head memory than is really practicle to use. I see taking attributes A as defaulting alot which I understand may be a bad idea.

However, I'm not sure why you think I HAVE to have electronics B/R. I'm not a techie geek im an infiltrator. I'm guessing you are refering to tests like the GM may ask for an electronics test to understand what needs to be done and an electronics B/R test to do some indepth manipulation of a certain device?

As for the encephalon and cerebral enhancer: it thought it said in SR3 that you DO NOT have any pools besides combat unless your a rigger/decker which in that case you would have control/hacking pools. Is this correct?

I changed the skills somewhat in the first post. Got rid of security and added Electronics B/R.

Let me break down the Attributes vs Skills thing for you a little better.

A rating 5 skillsoft would take up 75 mp.

300 Mp head memory would cost 1 essence.

300 Mp head memory would allow for four (rating 5) skillsofts at any given time without a data compactor.

is it worth it? I don't know for sure without building it both ways. It just doesn't jive that I can carry enough skill softs to make up for 16 skill points.

Wait..yes it does. 50-34=16....without skill softs. 4 x 5=20 points using skill softs. Hmmm. Perhaps I'll rebuild with attributes A, resources B, skills C and see how that goes.

I guess it just depends on if I have the :nuyen: for enough head memory, data compator, router and skills softs, not to mention other cyberware.

[toturi]

Nobody told you to put those skills into headware memory. Use multi-slot chipjacks and expert chipjack driver. Taskpool(M&M p48) is your friend.

Can someone show him how a properly chipped charactor looks like? I'm fresh out of ideas/PCs at the moment.

Since you are an infiltrator, then your job is to get pass those electronic maglocks and other marvels of electronic wizardry designed to catch you. You want to get both Electronics and Electronic B/R because you do not know when just knowing how to operate(Electronics) the damned maglock isn't enough, sometimes you need to take the damned thing apart.

[Lilt]

Firstly: Alpha-grade cyberware (doubble price, reduces essence cost by 20%) helps greatly when trying not to run-out of essence. Also Bioware can be installed allongside cyberware, read Effects of Installing Bioware, P77, M&M.

Personally I'd go for cybereyes (with Thermo/Low-light/Elect. Vis. Mag-3), a smartlink-II, wired reflexes-2, and a coupple of Datajacks. Taking the above as Alphaware is a fairly standard setup.

You don't really need skillwires, you don't need them at rating 6 in any case. Consider getting them at rating 3 with a rating 3 chipjack expert driver. Far cheaper and takes-up less essence. Skillwires are bad for combat skills, but great for knowing useful skills like Electronics and B/R skills. Only needing the skill chips at rating 3 is good too.

[RedmondLarry]

If both the other characters are combat oriented, your team may need help with Sneaking and Disguise, Breaking and Entering, Negotiations and Legwork, Decking and Electronics, Astral Recon and Spirits, Driving and Stake Out. You need to decide how many of these roles you want to try to fill. If you try to do too many, you'll be mediocre to poor at all of them. I prefer to be great at a few things than to be mediocre at many things.

Being good at Pistols, SMGs, AND melee combat makes me think you either want to compete with the combat monsters OR the GM/team believes combat has to be a big part of every run. My suggestion: pick just one combat skill (e.g. Pistols OR SMGs) so you can participate in battles you have prepared for.

A non-decker doesn't need a Computer Skill unless they want to be really good at looking things up at the Public Library. If you aren't going to be decking, your computer use should be little enough that you can default to Electronics (at +2) or to Intelligence (at +4) .

Computer is for working on computers and in the matrix.
Electronics is for using electronic devices (bug scanners, maglock pass keys).
Electronics B/R is most commonly used to let you connect to things you shouldn't (like illegal network taps, the insides of elevator circuitry or door controls).

Many GMs automatically assume characters have low level Background knowledge skills for each of their big active skills, as suggested in SR3 p. 90 (Background Knowledge). E.g. if you have Cars 7, you automatically are assumed to have Cars Background at 3 points lower. Cars Background lets you identify cars, guess at their capabilities, and reasonably discuss high-performance options.

A social / sneak character should be able to get by with very little cyberware. After all, your job is to stay OUT of combat. I try to get by with as low a Resources as I can so I get more Attributes or Skills. Steal and acquire gear as you go.

[Rev]

Those peices of ware list the task pool which can be added to tests like electronics and electronics b/r. This pool does not exist in the main book though. I believe that SR1 had more pools than SR2 (a dodge pool maybe?), but I never played SR1. Magic in the shadows adds an astral pool as well.

I think that the maglocks section of the book, for example, says you have to make an electronics b/r test to open the case of the lock, then an electronics test to get the lock to open. If you are lacking either skill you are very unlikely to succede. Personally I think one skill should cover it.

Your priorities are fine with me (I used to love A skills charachters in sr2) but see if you can squeeze by with resources at 90k. If not be sure to pump some karma into willpower quick. This is another thing that will vary with the gm and the ratio of karma to cash.

Good sneakey thief type charachters can also be mages or physical adepts.




Oh and a knowsoft link isn't a skillwire system. It only works for knowledge skill and language skill chips plugged into some box that plugs into your datajack. It also only costs 0.1 essence. No skillwires, no headware memory, no nothing that costs much essence or money.

[Solstice]

Thanks for all the great advice guys. I'm learning a ton.

[Fortune]

[Big Crow]

These are just a few suggestions from the hip.
Years ago I ran an ex swat type, who also had some difficulties fitting in.
Eventually he found his stride, and outlived everyone else :)
For a covert ops type, your electronics is kinda high, more suited to a decker or rigger. I'd suggest dropping it to 4 maybe or 3 with a spec in (Control Systems).
If the group is more power-ish (based on the multiple weapons skills 6+ I am assuming so), you may not be using it very much, and 4-5 dice for average test is fine.
I noticed a conspicuous lack of the skill Small Unit Tactics. In real life, modern special forces aren't always olympic class marksman, but rather have excelent tactical skills-they know not only what to do, but why to do it. You don't need a battletac link to use it, although it helps, and even grunts appreciate the initiative bonus that can be given. Small Unit Tactics is described on pages 47-48 in M&M. Start with at least a 4 in the skill.
One thing that would help is figuring out where, and why your character was trained in these particular skills. What did your last employer train you for? My ex swat type had three fighting skills at very low levels, simply because I decided he had been groomed to run ops from a support position, i.e. back of a van, helicopter, etc. Made it much easier to design because I knew what those folk are trained for in real life.
Your character should also have room to grow, for example, while a Demolitions (Plastic) 6 looks good on paper, you might be better off tweaking it down some, and seeing if you group will ever have a need for it. You might play for a year and never use it. Start small, specialize later. The more fluid your character is, the better he can fill those vacant roles in your group.
Enough rambling, really, these are just thoughts for you to mull.

[Cain]

Your basic setup looks pretty good. I'd run with the basic idea, but I have a few suggestions.

Drop Strength to 2, and spend those points on willpower. You want a high combat pool in order to dodge. Lower your aikido skill to 2 as well, but spend those points to buy yourself a maneuver: Evasion. You're not a combat character, so while that maneuver will prevent you from causing damage in melee, it's not a loss to you. In that same vein, I'd suggest lowering your SMG skill to 4/6, and your pistols skill to 5; spend those points improving your tech skills, or picking up a Small Unit Tactics skill.

As for cyber/bio, I'm actually going to suggest staying away from the encephalon/cerebral booster combo unless you have a specific goal for it. They're very powerful, but they're better for techies. I'd suggest Enhanced Articulation it their place; it gives you +1 dice to your Electronics B/R as well as your combat skills, and is much cheaper.

I'd suggest loading up on senseware-- cybereyes with the works (especially flare comp and superflash), spatial recognizer, orientation system, and so on. Definitely add a datajack, and some form of reflex augmentation.

[Solstice]

[Fortune]

Small Unit Tactics does not require Cyberware (although it helps!), but I would not recommend it for a non-combat-oriented character anyway. :)

[Solstice]

Yes I see that just now having read it again. For some reason I was associating it with a tactical computer and Battletac.

[Joker9125]

My character is a quadrapeligic and he is very usefull for recon. He simply leaves his body at him with 2 elementals guarding it and astrally projects. an astrally projecting mage can infiltrate most any electronic security system. And when he wants to open a door he has elementals for that :rotfl:

[Solstice]

Interesting concept :eek: . Like I said I'm new to the game and I'm staying as far away from magic as possible. Don't really want to deal with learning all that at this point.

[Tanka]

[kevyn668]

What books do you have accces to? It seems like you jumped into a group that has been playing for while and I'm assuming from the equipment you're talking about that you have access to Shadowrun Core Rules 3rd Edition (SR3), Man & Machine (M&M), the Cannon Companion (CC), and the Shadowrun Companion (SRComp).

Am I correct?

As for your immediate problem, I think you have two big choices: 1) stick w/ the B&E/Covert Ops guy OR 2) you could think about a stealthy samuria type (I cringe at the use of "cybernina") and then you have LOTS of little choices. Thats what makes SR great: lots of character choices!

[Solstice]

yeah the group has been playing for a while. We have the SR3, Canon Companion, M&M, Magic in the shadows or some such thing.

I'm definitely going to go for a priority tech guy with a lesser emphasis on combat.

I also figured out that using skillsoft is pretty much useless since you need skills wires to even use active softs. And that is too much :nuyen: