SR4A and Edge, Or the High Cost of Mr. Lucky Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Cardul]

You know, I was thinking about something. Previously, it was beneficial if you were going to be burning edge alot to have only 1 or 2 points of Edge. Now, however, with the Karma Cost increase...

Mr Lucky(human) with his Metagentic Improvement: Edge, Exceptional Attribute: Edge, and a 9 Edge...is NEVER going to want to burn that edge! He is going to only want to spend it.

[paws2sky]

You know, I was thinking about something. Previously, it was beneficial if you were going to be burning edge alot to have only 1 or 2 points of Edge. Now, however, with the Karma Cost increase...

Mr Lucky(human) with his Metagentic Improvement: Edge, Exceptional Attribute: Edge, and a 9 Edge...is NEVER going to want to burn that edge! He is going to only want to spend it.

Metagentic Improvement: Edge... WTF? Please tell me that's a joke and Augmentation didn't fail to exclude that from list of attributes you can improved... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sleepy.gif)

-paws

[the_dunner]

Metagentic Improvement: Edge... WTF? Please tell me that's a joke and Augmentation didn't fail to exclude that from list of attributes you can improved...

I believe Cardul's referring to Metagenetic Improvement from the list of Runner's Companion Metagenetic Qualities, rather than Genetic Optimization from Augmentation. Regardless, both of those are explicitly for changing the maximum natural attribute rating for a Physical or Mental attribute. Edge is neither a Physical nor a Mental Attribute, so it would not qualify for either of these improvements.

[Starmage21]

I believe Cardul's referring to Metagenetic Improvement from the list of Runner's Companion Metagenetic Qualities, rather than Genetic Optimization from Augmentation. Regardless, both of those are explicitly for changing the maximum natural attribute rating for a Physical or Mental attribute. Edge is neither a Physical nor a Mental Attribute, so it would not qualify for either of these improvements.

His point still stands. Mr Lucky is never goign to burn his edge again. Yet, he's still quite awesome at everything so long as he has edge to spend on tasks.

[paws2sky]

I believe Cardul's referring to Metagenetic Improvement from the list of Runner's Companion Metagenetic Qualities, rather than Genetic Optimization from Augmentation. Regardless, both of those are explicitly for changing the maximum natural attribute rating for a Physical or Mental attribute. Edge is neither a Physical nor a Mental Attribute, so it would not qualify for either of these improvements.

Ah ha! Okay, that makes much more sense.

Either way, Mr. Lucky will need to get really picky about burning Edge.

-paws
The caffeine is finally kicking in...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ah ha! Okay, that makes much more sense.

Either way, Mr. Lucky will need to get really picky about burning Edge.

-paws
The caffeine is finally kicking in...

In this, I am in total agreement... but then again, a character with 8 Edge is indeed Mr. LUCKY... (we got one in our campaign, and he is definitely Lucky)

[Shinobi Killfist]

while 40 karma is worse, 24 karma was nothing to sneeze at. I don't think I'd be burning edge as mr. lucky except as a last resort in either case.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

while 40 karma is worse, 24 karma was nothing to sneeze at. I don't think I'd be burning edge as mr. lucky except as a last resort in either case.

What Shinobi Killfist Said...

[wind_in_the_ston...]

Mr. Lucky should never get to the point where he has to burn edge. Add seven dice to your ten, and use rule of 6? Likely a critical success. Hand of God? Your new edge is 6. Sucks to be you.

[Cain]

I've seen characters built around burning Edge, and they tend to go for a low Edge in any case, sometimes backed up by the Bad Luck Flaw (since it doesn't affect burnt Edge). The Mr. Lucky's don't tend to burn Edge in any case.

[InfinityzeN]

Mr. Lucky really doesn't need to burn edge most of the time. There is little that getting +8 dice (rerolls 6s) does not solve where burning edge does.

[Dwight]

I've seen characters built around burning Edge, and they tend to go for a low Edge in any case, sometimes backed up by the Bad Luck Flaw (since it doesn't affect burnt Edge). The Mr. Lucky's don't tend to burn Edge in any case.

Exactly, under the original costs Mr. Lucky really tended to only burn Edge when facing certain death or when played by Mr. Stupid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

It was always a sufficient deterrent. The wall just got a little higher now and the aversion to burning Edge is pushed even further down the spectrum so that Mr. Lucky's cousin, Ms. Moderately Fortunate (Edge 4) is also quite unlikely to burn Edge.

A good thing as far as I'm concerned.

[suppenhuhn]

The wall hasn't got higher, with the higher Karma rewards it has been lowered if anything.

[Cain]

You may be right. At 9 karma a session, it'll take 5 sessions to restore your Edge point. At 5 karma a session, it'd take 5 sessions to reach 24 karma, the previous point.

That's still 5 sessions, though, which is over a month's worth of gaming.

[Draco18s]

You may be right. At 9 karma a session, it'll take 5 sessions to restore your Edge point. At 5 karma a session, it'd take 5 sessions to reach 24 karma, the previous point.

That's still 5 sessions, though, which is over a month's worth of gaming.

How many players expect to be burning a point of edge every 5 sessions?

[Larme]

Exactly, under the original costs Mr. Lucky really tended to only burn Edge when facing certain death or when played by Mr. Stupid. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

Omg, forget Mr. Lucky! I want to see the Mr. Stupid build! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Method]

How many players expect to be burning a point of edge every 5 sessions?

About as many as build a character reliant on a high edge attributes... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

When all you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail...

[Dwight]

The wall hasn't got higher, with the higher Karma rewards it has been lowered if anything.

To an extent that is true, but it will still chew deeper into your Skill advancement, right? I haven't gone through the SR4A changes with a fine tooth comb but I think that is how it play out? In terms of the number of sessions, as Cain laid out, it's the same. But those 5 sessions of advancement will cost you more Skill dice.

[Dwight]

Omg, forget Mr. Lucky! I want to see the Mr. Stupid build! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

It is more a state of mind than an actual build. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/embarrassed.gif) Although I could be wrong on that? I invite anyone and everyone to prove my error!

[Muspellsheimr]

To an extent that is true, but it will still chew deeper into your Skill advancement, right? I haven't gone through the SR4A changes with a fine tooth comb but I think that is how it play out? In terms of the number of sessions, as Cain laid out, it's the same. But those 5 sessions of advancement will cost you more Skill dice.

No.
5 sessions @ 5 Karma will earn you 25 Karma, -24 to increase Edge to 8; you have 1 net gain Karma.
5 sessions @ 9 Karma will earn you 45 Karma, -40 to increase Edge to 8; you have 5 net gain Karma.

Do not try to argue 8 Karma a session, because that should happen under SR4A approximately the same amount as 4 Karma a session under SR4, & SR4 will come out even further behind.

[Dwight]

5 sessions @ 5 Karma will earn you 25 Karma, -24 to increase Edge to 8; you have 1 net gain Karma.
5 sessions @ 9 Karma will earn you 45 Karma, -40 to increase Edge to 8; you have 5 net gain Karma.

You don't go backwards any faster, maybe even a hair slower (largely depends on how Karma awards really break down), but relative to not burning Edge you slow your advancement down more.

The math you are missing is that it is still 16 extra Karma gone. Skills still cost the same Karma, right? So in effect you have lost more dice. With SR4A the character that avoids burning Edge will advance their Skills (along with the other Karma purchase benefits like Positive/Negative Qualities and binding foci), and therefore their dice pools, at an increased rate compared with under the SR4 rules.

The Mr. Stupid Gambit just got less optimal.

[Muspellsheimr]

Yes, skills cost the same. That is not important. What is important is that they cost less relative to Karma earned or spent on attributes, & thus advance faster, regardless of if you are replacing burned Edge or not.

And the entire point of this is that burning Edge on Mr. Lucky is now less costly in other areas than it was in SR4.

[Dwight]

And the entire point of this is that burning Edge on Mr. Lucky is now less costly in other areas than it was in SR4.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Only in an illusionary way. In truth it costs more. The extra cost is just hiding behind the smoke screen of advancement in general speeding up.

[suppenhuhn]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/indifferent.gif)

Only in an illusionary way. In truth it costs more. The extra cost is just hiding behind the smoke screen of advancement in general speeding up.

No it doesn't.
You have diminishing return, so while you may be more behind in peripheral skill under the new system you will be closer to your team mates in regard to your main skills.

[Dwight]

No it doesn't.
You have diminishing return, so while you may be more behind in peripheral skill under the new system you will be closer to your team mates in regard to your main skills.

Because depth in Skill base isn't an asset? That's crazy talk, especially Mr. Lucky. His strength lies in flexibility. A broader Skill base plays to that strength.

Even specialists tend to take a fair amount of karma to fill out their primary field in a meaningful way.

I'm not even counting Positive Qualities, because gaining those are more game table specific.