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#1
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 121 Joined: 5-August 07 From: Hannover/ADL Member No.: 12,510 ![]() |
Since a long time I was wondering whether mages need to perform some action like gestures or spoken formulas to cast a spell. I think it would be unfair if mages just have to concentrate because a mundane opponent never would be able to notice that he's going to be grilled. I couldn't find any information about this problem. Help and suggestions would be very appreciated.
Cheers! |
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#2
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The ShadowComedian ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 ![]() |
No, they don't.
If they can see something, it does not matter if you have cut their vocal cords and severed their arms. They can kill you with their mind, if they can see you. Only if they take the two Testiculation Geasa they need to Wave around and talk bollocks. Technically, you can't even stop a mage from casting spells if you blind him. He will just use astral perception to sling mana spells. |
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#3
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 121 Joined: 5-August 07 From: Hannover/ADL Member No.: 12,510 ![]() |
This makes them extremely dangerous. So, if a megacorp wants to negotiate with a runner they don't know yet, would they first observe him even with a mage to determine whether he is magically active or not?
I have a very paranoid mage in my group and I don't want four dead NPCs for nothing. This would probably end in disaster. |
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#4
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 171 Joined: 30-August 08 Member No.: 16,291 ![]() |
I agree that there are in general no universal signs, but...
The more powerful magicical practice is the more obvious it becomes. A force 2 Stun Bolt will probably not feature any gestures, maybe a whispered (and exchangeable) word of power and a glance. A force 10 energy bolt is very noticeable - the mage will prabably assume a dominant posture, breath deaply, speak formulae intensely (not necessarily loud), and make a forceful wave or pointing while casting. The point is, that a mage uses methods which help his mind kill people. That can be postures, gestures, word, humming, or intense inward concentration like Hiro Nakamura. Or whatever fits. [EDIT: There's nothing wrong with bringing professional magical security to a negotiation. You could put an astral barrier between the group and the Johnson to prevent each of the two of assensing and making the other party nervous. And no, I think there is nothing especially wrong with checking runner mages. They check their mates, associates, and enemies all the time themselves.] |
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#5
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The ShadowComedian ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 ![]() |
This makes them extremely dangerous. So, if a megacorp wants to negotiate with a runner they don't know yet, would they first observe him even with a mage to determine whether he is magically active or not? I have a very paranoid mage in my group and I don't want four dead NPCs for nothing. This would probably end in disaster. Where, do you think, does the KILL THE MAGE FIRST come from? O.o You can not caputre a mage and make him helpless, unless you can take his magic away somehow . . all his mind.control and fire-power is built in. |
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#6
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 121 Joined: 5-August 07 From: Hannover/ADL Member No.: 12,510 ![]() |
Thank you for your quick and very helpful replies.
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#7
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Great Dragon ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,542 Joined: 30-September 08 From: D/FW Megaplex Member No.: 16,387 ![]() |
Don't forget about Mana Static and Magecuffs/Mage Hood (hood, was it?), if you really want to lay the smack-down on a mage.
That aside, mage's aren't all that supremely powerful. You have to remember balancing factors like Drain and SHOOT THE MAGE FIRST. |
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#8
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 ![]() |
Magicians are not required to make any form of physical movement or vocalize anything to cast or summon, unless they take a Geas for such. Every-day spellslingers, however, often will as a method of focus & concentration; my characters, however, never do unless I specify otherwise (& then it is usually for show).
This does not mean you cannot notice someone using magic - high Force spells & summoning is actually very noticable. QUOTE (SR4 p.168) Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a
Perception Test (p. 117) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magic’s Force—more powerful magic is easier to spot. Th e gamemaster should apply additional modifi ers as appropriate, or if the perceiver is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving (+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is evident (+2 dice). |
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#9
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The ShadowComedian ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 ![]() |
So, even if the Mage is only casting a small little glance into your direction, you have to make a perception test with . . what? Force 6 Stun-Bolt, meaning 0 Successed needed? O.o
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#10
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 24-July 08 From: Resonance Realms, behind the 2nd Star Member No.: 16,162 ![]() |
That should tell you something... they DO need to do something which can be perceived, otherwise it would'nt be a Complex Action.
Short Answer: Magicians need to do something to cast a spell or summon a spirit. Long Answer: A Magician needs to do something appropriate for his tradition. A shaman sings the songs of his totem, a hermetician vocalizes the spell, whatever the player comes up with that fits. Why? Traditions aren't for show. A shaman doesn't learn to kill people by glancing at them, he curses them with pain and hurt, a mambo pleads to damballah to strike her enemies down with lightning and so on. |
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#11
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 14-March 09 Member No.: 16,964 ![]() |
A Magician needs to do something appropriate for his tradition. A shaman sings the songs of his totem, a hermetician vocalizes the spell, whatever the player comes up with that fits. No. Geasa are 10 point Negative Qualities for a reason. Spellcasting is detectable, but not through any of the "makes spellcasting obvious" Geasa types (gestures, vocalization, dancing, etc). |
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#12
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 15-March 09 Member No.: 16,968 ![]() |
Agree with greybrother.
And the text is ambiguous - first it says its not necessary to gesture or anything visual. Then it says the spellcasting can be perceived by an perception test. Huh? |
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#13
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 24-July 08 From: Resonance Realms, behind the 2nd Star Member No.: 16,162 ![]() |
No. Geasa are 10 point Negative Qualities for a reason. Spellcasting is detectable, but not through any of the "makes spellcasting obvious" Geasa types (gestures, vocalization, dancing, etc). Geas just says, that you absolutely MUST do something specific for some magical actions. Until you take it you have free reign about what you do to make your magic as visible as needed. Those are just fluff geas, you don't get BP for it but the satisfaction that you actually do some roleplaying (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif) |
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#14
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,358 Joined: 2-December 07 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Member No.: 14,465 ![]() |
On the part of keeping Mages hostage... Mage Mask. Keep them in that for a few days, and they'll be nice and insane.
Or Tranqs. Lots of Tranqs! No concentration, no magic! And you can pump them full of artificial drugs to burn out their magic as well. Then release them into the General Population of a prison. Lone Star Police Stations are not Nationalized (They're still part of the UCAS.). Lone Star PRISONS, however, are. They can do whatever they want that's legal under their laws, and no one can say Diddily-Bo! And, frankly, the public isn't going to give two dreks about some ex-con magician anyhow. |
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#15
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 14-March 09 Member No.: 16,964 ![]() |
Agree with greybrother. And the text is ambiguous - first it says its not necessary to gesture or anything visual. Then it says the spellcasting can be perceived by an perception test. Huh? The two statements don't contradict each other. I know D&D isn't exactly well-liked around here, but it's the same thing as Spell-Like Abilities in D&D: they don't have Verbal, Somatic (gesture), or Material components, so there's no blindingly obvious way to detect that they're being used, but they still provoke Attacks of Opportunity in battle because you're focusing your attention on using your ability rather than defending yourself. Same thing here -- you're focused inwards, not paying attention to the "real world", not to mention with a high-Force spell there's probably some very obvious (thus the threshold of 0 for F6 spells) visual indicators from the gathering of mana itself. Glowing auras, sparkly air, a strong wind inside, etc. However, the text is VERY clear that you do NOT need to speak, gesture, or otherwise do anything physical to cast a spell. |
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#16
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Validating Posts: 121 Joined: 5-August 07 From: Hannover/ADL Member No.: 12,510 ![]() |
Well, even if you can notice a mage is casting by making a perception test... I see a problem with initiative. If you are faster than the mage, you won't notice anything because the mage hasn't begun to cast yet. If you're slower than the mage, he has finished his spell before you are allowed to make your perception test. So either you notice noting, or you you notice that he casted a spell while you're already burning.
Or did I miss something? |
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#17
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 15-March 09 Member No.: 16,968 ![]() |
I remember reading somewhere that the perception test is to see if the magician is trying to cast the spell, through visual clues (concentration, gestures, etc.). But I may be mistaken. Gonna read the book when arrive at home.
Anyway, if its true that a mage dont need to do anything other than think, the authors lost a great chance of depicting the roleplaying elements of the traditions, IMHO. Further, it took a step out from what I think are great magic depictions in the roleplaying industry (Mage, Unknown Armies, Witchcraft), and aproached what I see as poor magical depictions (like D&D, where spells are more like different guns). (In my table, it would be mandatory. "Dont say you cast a manaball. Show me how you do it, by your traditions beliefs!"). |
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#18
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Grand Master of Run-Fu ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 6,840 Joined: 26-February 02 From: Tir Tairngire Member No.: 178 ![]() |
Well, even if you can notice a mage is casting by making a perception test... I see a problem with initiative. If you are faster than the mage, you won't notice anything because the mage hasn't begun to cast yet. If you're slower than the mage, he has finished his spell before you are allowed to make your perception test. So either you notice noting, or you you notice that he casted a spell while you're already burning. Or did I miss something? Not all spells are combat spells. You might need to detect something like a mental manipulation. The shimmer in the air tells you *some* thing happened, the fact that the sarge is acting weird tells you what. |
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#19
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 14-March 09 Member No.: 16,964 ![]() |
Anyway, if its true that a mage dont need to do anything other than think, the authors lost a great chance of depicting the roleplaying elements of the traditions, IMHO. (In my table, it would be mandatory. "Dont say you cast a manaball. Show me how you do it, by your traditions beliefs!"). And what if their tradition is Psionics? Or some other tradition that internalizes magic, such that there wouldn't BE an external physical sign of spellcasting such as gestures or chanting? |
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#20
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 15-March 09 Member No.: 16,968 ![]() |
QUOTE And what if their tradition is Psionics? Or some other tradition that internalizes magic, such that there wouldn't BE an external physical sign of spellcasting such as gestures or chanting? Nothing wrong with it, If the tradition´s way of spellcasting is like this. But stating beforehand "you dont need anything to cast a spell beyond a thought", is a step in the wrong direction, to me at least. I think the process of spellcasting should be pre-stated just as the "spirit categories table", for each tradition. Eg: Shamanism spellcasting: chanting, dancing and talking to spirits. Hermeticism spellcasting: whispering formulae, drawing glyphs in air. |
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#21
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 ![]() |
BBB page 168, done.
"Intense concetration, small gestures, and whispering" |
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#22
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The ShadowComedian ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 ![]() |
would make magic in situations where stealth is needed a bit . . awkward no? O.o
The runners need to sneak by someone, the shaman proudly declares:"i cast improved invisibility force 6 on us" and promptly begins singing and dancing, while shaking his rattle. |
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#23
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
Agree with greybrother. And the text is ambiguous - first it says its not necessary to gesture or anything visual. Then it says the spellcasting can be perceived by an perception test. Huh? The "Gathering of Energy" used for spellcasting or summoning is noticeable, the more powerful the spell, the easier that gathering of energy is... The hair on your neck may stand up, your skin may crawl with unseen energy... whatever, but that energy IS noticeable... |
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#24
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 289 Joined: 15-March 09 Member No.: 16,968 ![]() |
QUOTE would make magic in situations where stealth is needed a bit . . awkward no? O.o The runners need to sneak by someone, the shaman proudly declares:"i cast improved invisibility force 6 on us" and promptly begins singing and dancing, while shaking his rattle. The shaman would try to make all the chanting and dancing in a discreet way, just like a street sam would do to arm pump his shotgun while hiding. Anyway, go to a Casa de Santo and try asking a pai de santo to appease the spirits for you BUT only by thinking, not making gestures or whispering... he wont do it because he prefers to offend you than the spirits. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) EDIT: QUOTE BBB page 168, done. "Intense concetration, small gestures, and whispering" I knew Ive read this somewhere. Thanks, Draco. |
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#25
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,431 Joined: 3-December 03 Member No.: 5,872 ![]() |
As I understand it, there are small gestures and whispering as the base spellcasting level. The Geasa makes it large obvious gestures or loud chanting. One if the force is high enough is obvious when someone is looking, the other might be obvious even if you aren't looking like turned away or in another room or is still obvious when its a low force spell.
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#26
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 380 Joined: 19-May 07 Member No.: 11,698 ![]() |
The SR3 Magic book addressed this problem. Basically, casting spells is like doing any other highly complex skill. Usually, people develop a memory device to help them make the process easier. For example, I CAN do calculus in my head, but it is easier for me (and I am less likely to screw up) if I write the problem down and walk through it step-by-step.
A house rule I use is that, if someone tries to cast a spell without using their tradition's numonic (such as saying ogga booga or waving their arms around) then I increase the threshold by one. You can say it, whisper it, whatever, but if you are bound and gagged, you have an extra threshold. |
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#27
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
The SR3 Magic book addressed this problem. Basically, casting spells is like doing any other highly complex skill. Usually, people develop a memory device to help them make the process easier. For example, I CAN do calculus in my head, but it is easier for me (and I am less likely to screw up) if I write the problem down and walk through it step-by-step. A house rule I use is that, if someone tries to cast a spell without using their tradition's numonic (such as saying ogga booga or waving their arms around) then I increase the threshold by one. You can say it, whisper it, whatever, but if you are bound and gagged, you have an extra threshold. That is an interesting idea... I like it... |
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#28
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The ShadowComedian ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 ![]() |
would not a dice-pool malus be a bit more appropriate?
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#29
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 380 Joined: 19-May 07 Member No.: 11,698 ![]() |
QUOTE would not a dice-pool malus be a bit more appropriate? Eh, Six one half a dozen the other. I have found that my players don't like it when I take away from heir dice pools, so increasing the threshold is a way to get around it. Technically, according to the books, reducing a dice pool means that there is something wrong WITH YOU, whereas increasing the threshold means that THE TASK is harder. It is harder to cast a spell without your memory helpers (chants, dancing, singing, waving your hands around) so that would increase the threshold, where as something that is specific to you (for example, wounds) reduces your dice pool. That's just how I see it though. |
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#30
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 27 Joined: 27-January 09 Member No.: 16,817 ![]() |
Also the caster can use the stealth skill to increase the successes the observers would need.
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#31
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The Dragon Never Sleeps ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 ![]() |
Noticing the Casting is different then noticing the spell.
Noticing something Magic happened is distinct from noticing who cast the spell. |
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#32
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
Noticing the Casting is different then noticing the spell. Noticing something Magic happened is distinct from noticing who cast the spell. However ift might make finding WHO cast the spell a little harder... Because we all know the reaction to noticing the caster don't we? GEEEK THE MAGE FIRST....... |
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#33
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 380 Joined: 19-May 07 Member No.: 11,698 ![]() |
However ift might make finding WHO cast the spell a little harder... Because we all know the reaction to noticing the caster don't we? GEEEK THE MAGE FIRST....... We did a silly one-shot campaign once, and it resulted in the funniest thing ever. So, the team consisted of a couple Street Sams, and a mage. The Mage's handle was 'Geek.' He lasted approx. 0.4 seconds. "Hi everyone, my name is Raz, and this is my friend, Geek, the Mage." |
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#34
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
We did a silly one-shot campaign once, and it resulted in the funniest thing ever. So, the team consisted of a couple Street Sams, and a mage. The Mage's handle was 'Geek.' He lasted approx. 0.4 seconds. "Hi everyone, my name is Raz, and this is my friend, Geek, the Mage." Now that is Good... I loved it... |
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#35
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 86 Joined: 6-April 09 From: The Barrens Member No.: 17,056 ![]() |
The following is straight from the SR4A:
Noticing Magic Just how obvious are magical skills? Not very, since most spells and spirits have little, if any, visible effect in the physical world (unless the magician prefers to have flashy effects, or her tradition calls for it). An observer has to notice the magicians intense look of concentration, whispered incantations, and small gestures. Magicians of some traditions display a more visible change when practicing magic known as the shamanic mask. The shamanic mask typically changes the magicians features temporarily to display characteristics appropriate to her mentor spirit or tradition”an eagle shaman, for example, might seem to have feathers or beaklike features while spellcasting or summoning. Noticing if someone is using a magical skill requires a Perception Test (p. 135) with a threshold equal to 6 minus the magicâs Force. More powerful magic is easier to spot with the gathered mana normally appearing as a disturbance or glowing aura in the air around the caster. The gamemaster should apply additional modifiers as appropriate, or if the perceiver is Awakened themselves (+2 dice), astrally perceiving (+2 dice), or if a shamanic mask is evident (+2 dice). That actually seems pretty clear cut. I know I will be requiring mages in my own game to make some kind of visible 'gesture'. The magical effect may not be visible, a manabolt thus being invisible upon casting and until impact with the target, but the gestures required to cast them are still physical. |
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#36
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The ShadowComedian ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,538 Joined: 3-October 07 From: Hamburg, AGS Member No.: 13,525 ![]() |
soo, as soon as the mages hands are found, he can't cast anymore?
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#37
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The Dragon Never Sleeps ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Admin Posts: 6,924 Joined: 1-September 05 Member No.: 7,667 ![]() |
Only if you limit things to hand gestures.
The signs of skill use could be anything. |
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#38
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,358 Joined: 2-December 07 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Member No.: 14,465 ![]() |
Now, to throw some Kerosene on the fire... What about the Shamanic Mask?
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#39
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Target ![]() Group: Members Posts: 86 Joined: 6-April 09 From: The Barrens Member No.: 17,056 ![]() |
Just because someone knows that mage is casting, doesn't mean that they know what is being cast, or that they have the means to prevent it. And for the spellcasters, they are required to be creative in how they hide their gestures. Is that mysterious veiled woman with the Johnson simply from a culture where veils are common, or using them to hide her vocal gestures?
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#40
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 604 Joined: 1-December 08 From: Sacramento, California Member No.: 16,646 ![]() |
"Alright rookie, the first rule to remember when dealing with Shadowrunners is to 'Geek the Mage first!'"
"But Sarge, how will I know which one is the mage?" "Just look for the man that looks like he's trying to take a shit. Any man that is trying to crap during a firefight is a priority target. Either that's the mage, and therefore rule one applies, or its someone thats in over their head, in which case putting them out of there misery is the most humane thing you can do. Got it?" "Yessir, cap the crapper, got it!" |
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#41
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,162 Joined: 16-November 07 Member No.: 14,229 ![]() |
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#42
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 572 Joined: 6-February 09 From: London Uk Member No.: 16,848 ![]() |
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#43
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,228 Joined: 24-July 07 From: Canada Member No.: 12,350 ![]() |
The Shamanic Mask is an optional way to have your character's spellcasting be noticeable. For your character, you can have their method of Spellcasting be gestures, spoken word, shamanic mask, some other sort of "visual manifestation," or any combination of the previous. That much is all roleplaying fluff. It makes no difference as far as the rules are concerned as long as the Magician can see the target. If there's geasa involved, then that's a different story.
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#44
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 385 Joined: 20-August 07 Member No.: 12,766 ![]() |
Does anybody else throw the "subtle spells" thing out the window? I can't stand the idea of mages and shamans throwing around immensely powerful manaballs and such around without visible cues. It just feels too psionic and not magic to me.
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#45
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,162 Joined: 16-November 07 Member No.: 14,229 ![]() |
Does anybody else throw the "subtle spells" thing out the window? I can't stand the idea of mages and shamans throwing around immensely powerful manaballs and such around without visible cues. It just feels too psionic and not magic to me. We apparently have different definitions of immensely powerful. The threshold to notice a caster is 6 minus the Force of the spell. At Force 6 and higher, any observer automatically notices a spell being cast unless they are incapable of making a Perception roll. Arguably, Force 5 is about what most soft-maxed starting casters are going to be throwing around. At that level you need 1 hit to notice a magician casting. Not hard, even for Bob the Pedestrian to spot. And while Force 5 is very beefy, its hardly what I'd call immensely powerful. At lower than Force 5, yeah, it can be tricky to notice a spell being cast, especially if you're unperceptive. That's one of the things that, rightly IMO, makes magicians scary. So... yeah, I'm okay with low Force spells being hard to notice. If you want your magician to wave his arms around and chant up a storm, take Geas (Gestures), Geas (Singing), and enjoy your 20 extra BP. -paws PS Personally, I think I would have made the threshold (Spellcaster's Magic) minus Force, but whatever, I'm not a game designer. |
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#46
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 113 Joined: 11-December 05 From: Philadelphia, UCAS Member No.: 8,063 ![]() |
Nothing wrong with it, If the tradition´s way of spellcasting is like this. But stating beforehand "you dont need anything to cast a spell beyond a thought", is a step in the wrong direction, to me at least. I think the process of spellcasting should be pre-stated just as the "spirit categories table", for each tradition. Eg: Shamanism spellcasting: chanting, dancing and talking to spirits. Hermeticism spellcasting: whispering formulae, drawing glyphs in air. The funny thing is that a lot of that is just fluff, not game mechanic. Magic is like any other skill; you'll always perform it how you learn it. If people learn division by writing it out, then they'll naturally write it out when they need to do division. If you learn magic by concentrating and asking the spirits in Creole to lend you their strength, then TA-DA, that's what you'll do. But that's not the necessary part of magic; only the concentration and molding of mana is important, much like in division where the only thing necessary is the mathematical operations to acheive the result. In my book, people notice magic due to the magician's intense concentration; perhaps they chant under their breath, or their eyes roll back slightly; whatever. When the spells cross the magical FORCE 6 threshold, well... then the air around the mage starts rippling, and you feel the mana being channeled and shaped around them. |
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#47
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Prime Runner Ascendant ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 17,568 Joined: 26-March 09 From: Aurora, Colorado Member No.: 17,022 ![]() |
Well Put...
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#48
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 14,358 Joined: 2-December 07 From: Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada Member No.: 14,465 ![]() |
Back in the old days (Wow, I'M saying this?), the Shamanic Mask wasn't optional. And that's one thing I've kept. I also give Shamans their Totem (Mentor Spirit) for free.
It's just part of Shadowrun Magic as far as I'm concerned, and the plusses equal the minuses for having one as far as I'm concerned. But that's just me. Sitting here, in my rocking chair. Polishing up my Defiance T-250 nice and pretty-like. |
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#49
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 ![]() |
But that's just me. Sitting here, in my rocking chair. Polishing up my Defiance T-250 nice and pretty-like. *Sigh* I really do need to get myself a silver-topped cane. And a lawn. So I can yell at kids to get off of it. (No, I'm not really that old, but there is a generation gap between 5th and 6th grades right now, so I do feel like "my generation" is rather small and feel old). |
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#50
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 619 Joined: 24-July 08 From: Resonance Realms, behind the 2nd Star Member No.: 16,162 ![]() |
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#51
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,444 Joined: 18-April 08 Member No.: 15,912 ![]() |
The Shamanic Mask is an optional way to have your character's spellcasting be noticeable. For your character, you can have their method of Spellcasting be gestures, spoken word, shamanic mask, some other sort of "visual manifestation," or any combination of the previous. or none of the above because unless you have gease or centering hand motions, speech or some other sign are actually not required. |
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#52
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Canon Companion ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 8,021 Joined: 2-March 03 From: The Morgue, Singapore LTG Member No.: 4,187 ![]() |
That actually seems pretty clear cut. I know I will be requiring mages in my own game to make some kind of visible 'gesture'. The magical effect may not be visible, a manabolt thus being invisible upon casting and until impact with the target, but the gestures required to cast them are still physical. That's good. But what constitutes a gesture? A tilt of the head, a squint of the eye, a motion with a finger? Any of the hundreds of minute gestures you make when in a firefight? As my mage tilts his head to gain to peer down the sight of his pistol, his finger tightens around the trigger of the gun, he whispers,"Pew, pew!" when he casts the spell. Or my favorite - the "Me Troll Mage" tactic or its numerous sister variants "Me Shapeshifter Mage", "Me Somehow Immune to Normal Weapons Mage" to name a few. Geek the mage first, if you can. Else you'd might have hurt more of them shadowrunners instead of wasting ammo on the mage. |
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#53
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 ![]() |
The funny thing is that a lot of that is just fluff, not game mechanic. Magic is like any other skill; you'll always perform it how you learn it. If people learn division by writing it out, then they'll naturally write it out when they need to do division. If you learn magic by concentrating and asking the spirits in Creole to lend you their strength, then TA-DA, that's what you'll do. But that's not the necessary part of magic; only the concentration and molding of mana is important, much like in division where the only thing necessary is the mathematical operations to acheive the result. In my book, people notice magic due to the magician's intense concentration; perhaps they chant under their breath, or their eyes roll back slightly; whatever. When the spells cross the magical FORCE 6 threshold, well... then the air around the mage starts rippling, and you feel the mana being channeled and shaped around them. Exactly. Not hard, even for Bob the Pedestrian to spot. And while Force 5 is very beefy, its hardly what I'd call immensely powerful. Not exactly - we will assume Bob is on the higher end of average, with a 3 Intuition. No Perception skill - he's just some guy. So, we have 3 - 1 (defaulting) -2 (not actively observing) = 0. Unless he has vision enhancements (which are cheap, but 'that guy' is unlikely to have them), he will not notice spellcasting without GM fiat; aka -14 Threshold (Force 20) should be noticeable as long as you have some form of sensory abilities & are on the same block. |
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#54
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,162 Joined: 16-November 07 Member No.: 14,229 ![]() |
Not exactly - we will assume Bob is on the higher end of average, with a 3 Intuition. No Perception skill - he's just some guy. So, we have 3 - 1 (defaulting) -2 (not actively observing) = 0. Unless he has vision enhancements (which are cheap, but 'that guy' is unlikely to have them), he will not notice spellcasting without GM fiat; aka -14 Threshold (Force 20) should be noticeable as long as you have some form of sensory abilities & are on the same block. Okay, fine, Bob was a bad example. For anyone else who's not completely oblivious to their surroundings, like Bob apparently is, you're going to have a reasonable chance of noticing a Force 5 spell. Even if you get down to DP 1, that's a 50/50 shot. -paws |
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#55
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,228 Joined: 24-July 07 From: Canada Member No.: 12,350 ![]() |
or none of the above because unless you have gease or centering hand motions, speech or some other sign are actually not required. But spellcasting is noticeable (as has been quoted in the rules), so the Magician must do something in order to make Spellcasting noticeable. If you don't want your mage to gesture, hand wave, or manifest the shamanic mask, then their magic creates a more noticeable "physical" effect on the world: wind rushing, visual distortions, distinctive smell, etc. The book lays out the crunchy rules for noticing spellcasting, there is no option to make your mage's magic "unnoticeable." |
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#56
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Immortal Elf ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 10,289 Joined: 2-October 08 Member No.: 16,392 ![]() |
I'd like to point out that by RAW it's easier to notice magic being cast in ShadowRun than it is in D&D where the mage has to do jumping jacks while shouting jibberish. By RAW D&D rules a fighter with a rank in Perception and a +1 from stat rolls his d20 versus a target number of 15 + spell level (he needs a 13 to notice a 0th level spell). And he can't even identify the spell unless he has Spellcraft (another 15+spell level TN).
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#57
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,444 Joined: 18-April 08 Member No.: 15,912 ![]() |
But spellcasting is noticeable (as has been quoted in the rules), so the Magician must do something in order to make Spellcasting noticeable. No. Look at ritual casting, even mundanes can feel a large enough build up of mana around them, and if these "signs" were required then why would geases, and centering include them? If it is a penality to the caster to have them (gease) then why would you get bonus BP for admitting you have them anyway? QUOTE If you don't want your mage to gesture, hand wave, or manifest the shamanic mask, then their magic creates a more noticeable "physical" effect on the world: wind rushing, visual distortions, distinctive smell, etc. The book lays out the crunchy rules for noticing spellcasting, there is no option to make your mage's magic "unnoticeable." Sorry, those 'signs' are not required at all. All that is needed is mundanes in the area to notice a shift in mana, which they seem to be capable of doing according to the ritual casting rules. Now given ritual casting takes hours instead of moments, the 'sudden' shift in mana for normally casting is likely what tips most mundanes off. If you want to READ more into the rules then are written, feel free. |
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#58
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Neophyte Runner ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,336 Joined: 24-February 08 From: Albuquerque, New Mexico Member No.: 15,706 ![]() |
Basically what it comes down to is:
Magicians are not required to perform any action to cast a spell, unless they have the Geas quality. Most magicians will perform some kind of action while casting anyways, as a focusing technique. Regardless of if you perform said actions or not, spellcasting is noticeable - I have always gone with the explanation of observers noticing the mana gathering around my character (remember, it is a Perception test, not a Visual Perception test), with no visual or audio effects, although observers may "see" it, lacking the ability to understand what it really is. |
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#59
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Running Target ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,162 Joined: 16-November 07 Member No.: 14,229 ![]() |
Basically what it comes down to is: Magicians are not required to perform any action to cast a spell, unless they have the Geas quality. Most magicians will perform some kind of action while casting anyways, as a focusing technique. Regardless of if you perform said actions or not, spellcasting is noticeable - I have always gone with the explanation of observers noticing the mana gathering around my character (remember, it is a Perception test, not a Visual Perception test), with no visual or audio effects, although observers may "see" it, lacking the ability to understand what it really is. Good summary. -paws |
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#60
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 244 Joined: 14-March 09 Member No.: 16,964 ![]() |
By RAW D&D rules a fighter with a rank in Perception and a +1 from stat rolls his d20 versus a target number of 15 + spell level (he needs a 13 to notice a 0th level spell). Errrr.... no. Without a feat or class feature that says otherwise, spells cast with a somatic component are automatically spotted and identified as spellcasting, and spells cast with a verbal component are automatically heard and identified as spellcasting (subject to the normal spot/listen range rules). There are no spot/listen checks to identify spellcasting; there is a spellcraft check to identify which spell is being cast. Actually, the rules specifically say that spellcasting is ALWAYS obvious and cannot be hidden or missed. Now, of course, you can take Still Spell and Silent Spell to remove the gesture/verbal components, but that's expensive in feats and increased spell levels. |
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#61
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Moving Target ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 220 Joined: 15-March 09 Member No.: 16,972 ![]() |
Basically what it comes down to is: Magicians are not required to perform any action to cast a spell, unless they have the Geas quality. Most magicians will perform some kind of action while casting anyways, as a focusing technique. Regardless of if you perform said actions or not, spellcasting is noticeable - I have always gone with the explanation of observers noticing the mana gathering around my character (remember, it is a Perception test, not a Visual Perception test), with no visual or audio effects, although observers may "see" it, lacking the ability to understand what it really is. Nicely put. Unless you take a geas (which makes them mandatory flavor), movements, gestures, verbal components, chanting, singing, etc., are all just flavor. |
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