Prejudiced againts Ghouls Options

[Stingray]

Prejudiced(Biased) (Ghouls)..5 BP (specific target group) or 10 BP (common target group) ?
(10 BP ie. metahumans,ghouls are still considered as sentinient beings..right??..)

[paws2sky]

My interpretation is that "metahumans" covers ALL metahumans. (Common Target Group)

In my game, ghouls would be the smaller group. (Specific Target Group)

-paws

[BlueMax]

My interpretation is that "metahumans" covers ALL metahumans.
In my game, ghouls would be the smaller group.

-paws

I run it about the same. We have a troll who is prejudiced against elves. When run that as a specific group.

[paws2sky]

Should have put this in my first post...

My guideline is that is that a Common Target Group must account for about 50% (or more) of the population. For a game set in a place like that African ghoul nation (name?), Ghouls would be a Common Target Group, but not anywhere else. Matrix Users, Corporate Citizens, Men, Women, Humans, and so on would all be common groups in almost every part of the world.

Anything less than that (<50%) and you're looking at a Specific Target Group. Magicians, Politicians, Elves, Trolls, etc. are all specific groups (in most parts of the world).

-paws

[Stingray]

I run it about the same. We have a troll who is prejudiced against elves. When run that as a specific group.

easy Bp's for Human.
Prejudiced(Biased)(Dwarfs) 5 BP
Prejudiced(Biased) (Elves) 5 BP
Prejudiced(Biased) (Orks) 5 BP
Prejudiced(Biased) (Trolls) 5 BP
..and human is Old-Fashioned Imperial Japanese (Prejudiced againts non-Japanese) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/devil.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Prejudiced against Trolls, Orks and Dwarves will net you a good beating in most cases.
Elves . . well, maybe your will get your behind tanned from the inside out.

[BlueMax]

Prejudiced against Trolls, Orks and Dwarves will net you a good beating in most cases.
Elves . . well, maybe your will get your behind tanned from the inside out.

We find his prejudice with Elves an interesting journey. There two elves in the group and his prejudice was from growing up as a Fomori in Tir Na Nog. And yes, that Arcane Arrester is handy thing to have.

[Stahlseele]

Well, GM once rolled Racism for my Troll.
Came up as the hardest you could get against elves.
I was a Troll. There were FIVE elves in the Group.
Yeah, i pretty much retired the Character.

[Larme]

I made a pixie with outspoken dislike of other pixies, based on how her own tribe forced her out... I wonder if that's kosher though? It would certainly be a flaw around other pixies, but they're not exactly common... It's sorta like being prejudiced against things like yetis, which most people don't even know exist. It seems to me that in order for the flaw to be balanced, it has to be metahuman, not metasapient, because metasapients are so rare that hating them is not likely to matter. The same is probably true of Infected, though perhaps not quite. I mean, being racist against Vampires is hardly a flaw, because they don't really show themselves, and they're not common. Ghouls might be another story, there's actually a whole nation of them, and they're fairly common as NPC enemies (at least, the feral ones).

[paws2sky]

If someone wanted a really fringe target group, like pixies, I'd probably expand it a bit. So, your pixie hater isn't just biased against pixies, he also hate everything that has to do with them, including being reminded that he is a pixie (probably drives him loco when people remind him, actually). Also he might hate pop culture references, pixie t-shirts, that pre-awakening band, pixie sticks... okay, now I'm being silly. I bet you get the point though.

Alternatively, you could house rule that a Fringe Target Group provides no bonus (or -5 BP... I don't recall the pricing structure on Prejudice), so you'd need to increase the prejudice level to Outspoken to get any points for it. That's how I'd do it anyway.

-paws

[Stingray]

I made a pixie with outspoken dislike of other pixies, based on how her own tribe forced her out... I wonder if that's kosher though? It would certainly be a flaw around other pixies, but they're not exactly common... It's sorta like being prejudiced against things like yetis, which most people don't even know exist. It seems to me that in order for the flaw to be balanced, it has to be metahuman, not metasapient, because metasapients are so rare that hating them is not likely to matter. The same is probably true of Infected, though perhaps not quite. I mean, being racist against Vampires is hardly a flaw, because they don't really show themselves, and they're not common. Ghouls might be another story, there's actually a whole nation of them, and they're fairly common as NPC enemies (at least, the feral ones).

I think it is kosher alright..but if PC have Prejudiced(Outspoken)(Gangers) and Prejudiced((outspoken)(Ghouls),and
walking across to member of 162-ganger (Ghouls-only can be member), does pc had to make 1 or 2
confrontation threshold tests?

[paws2sky]

I think it is kosher alright..but if PC have Prejudiced(Outspoken)(Gangers) and Prejudiced((outspoken)(Ghouls),and
walking across to member of 162-ganger (Ghouls-only can be member), does pc had to make 1 or 2
confrontation threshold tests?

If I were GMing, I'd say you take one test.

If you have two overlapping prejudices and one is stronger, I'd suggest using the more severe of the two.

[Stingray]

If I were GMing, I'd say you take one test.

If you have two overlapping prejudices and one is stronger, I'd suggest using the more severe of the two.

Thank you! My next charc. will have Prejudiced(biaced) (gangers) and Prejudiced(biaced)(ghouls),
only if i botch the rolls,something would be said/done(threshold 0) and rolling 10 die..

[paws2sky]

Bear in mind, I'd also require a certain amount of RP to go along with those two "cheap" flaws. At my table, you shouldn't expect to get the RP karma award if you're treating gangers and ghouls - or worse, ghoul gangers - like they're your best buddies.

Ultimately, you should check with your GM to see what s/he thinks about it.

-paws

PS Hmm. Another way to do it, when you have overlapping prejudices, would be to add the bias levels together or bump the highest one up a level. In this case your two Bias would combine to become Outspoken. You don't like ghouls or gangers, but ghoul gangers? Screw that noise!

[Stingray]

Bear in mind, I'd also require a certain amount of RP to go along with those two "cheap" flaws. At my table, you shouldn't expect to get the RP karma award if you're treating gangers and ghouls - or worse, ghoul gangers - like they're your best buddies.

Ultimately, you should check with your GM to see what s/he thinks about it.

-paws

PS Hmm. Another way to do it, when you have overlapping prejudices, would be to add the bias levels together or bump the highest one up a level. In this case your two Bias would combine to become Outspoken. You don't like ghouls or gangers, but ghoul gangers? Screw that noise!

Hmm...prejudiced(outspoken)(ghouls)..and PC is ex-HMHVV hunter..

[HappyDaze]

As a GM, I do not award any BP for the Bias level of Prejudice. At this level it's 100% roleplaying without mechanics and I don't feel it's appropriate to give a mechanical return for it. As some have called it 'easy points', I'll just call it cheese.

[Lindt]

Funny, Id have kinda thought everyone would be prejudiced against things that EAT PEOPLE.

[Stingray]

Funny, Id have kinda thought everyone would be prejudiced against things that EAT PEOPLE.

Ghouls have their own country(asmodaus) (?) ,they would have Diplomats (I would say civilized Ghoul)
Employer could be That person and money can buy tolerance.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tanegar]

Well, GM once rolled Racism for my Troll.
Came up as the hardest you could get against elves.
I was a Troll. There were FIVE elves in the Group.
Yeah, i pretty much retired the Character.

That is why I am foursquare against any rule that imposes qualities on a character without giving the player any say in the matter. I want to play my character, not my character as modified by a random dice roll.

[toturi]

That is why I am foursquare against any rule that imposes qualities on a character without giving the player any say in the matter. I want to play my character, not my character as modified by a random dice roll.

Ah, but you do. You had the choice to take that quality. If you want to retain control, just have the level of prejudice at Threshold 0. But not taking the Quality is akin to wanting to play a strong character but do not want to spend any BPs on Strength.

[Tanegar]

What I mean is, I should be the one who chooses who or what my character is prejudiced against, not the GM. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Also, where the hell is this Racism quality? It's not in my BBB.

[BlueMax]

What I mean is, I should be the one who chooses who or what my character is prejudiced against, not the GM. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Also, where the hell is this Racism quality? It's not in my BBB.

Prejudice
Runner's Companion

[Tanegar]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the part that says the GM gets to pick who my character is prejudiced against. Maybe it was in a previous edition?

[BlueMax]

Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't see the part that says the GM gets to pick who my character is prejudiced against. Maybe it was in a previous edition?

Ohh. Total Flashback. I don't ever remember a disad but in First Ed there was a random roll for NPC prejudice. Perhaps the GM was applying it to characters.

[Ryu]

I think it is kosher alright..but if PC have Prejudiced(Outspoken)(Gangers) and Prejudiced((outspoken)(Ghouls),and
walking across to member of 162-ganger (Ghouls-only can be member), does pc had to make 1 or 2
confrontation threshold tests?

I´d say add the thresholds.

[Stahlseele]

Yeah, no, i, as a PLAYER, am pretty much prejudiced against these sissy boy leaf blower longeared freaks(elves).
so, the GM rolled, and actually hit elves on some kind of chart he had for that. and then rolled and my character got to Hitler levels of Hate. Against elves.
If i had not played a troll, i would soo have joined humanis or alamos 20k after that. or some group that's strictly against elves. i DID have connections to Lord Torgo and his Spikes ^^

[Larme]

It's ok to be racist against elves, because they're racist against you. They think they're better than you! And after a few social rolls, so will you...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It's ok to be racist against elves, because they're racist against you. They think they're better than you! And after a few social rolls, so will you...

That was good... and Apt in a lot of cases in my experience...

[BlueMax]

Huh,
I get the impression, thats an impression folks not a fact, that most people are referring to obvious prejudice. Obvious prejudice is the "pralines and d***" of character traits. Its got no class, not style, no danger. And its easy to pull off because its almost farcical. For frag's sake, its something *I* could pull off.
Now, take a character who is not obviously prejudiced, is not outspoken and may even have "some elven friends". The character who makes subtle choices. The one who rationalizes their acts of hatred. "I can't stabilize him till we finish the firefight". That is character and if not played over the top, it represents the real problem of prejudice. Those who are prejudiced and haven't quite figured it out yet are the most dangerous, to themselves and others.

For those Magnum P.I. fans, and really, who the frag isnt?, there is a great episode on the subject. Most of it having to do with Higgins' prejudice against the Irish.

[Fuchs]

Funny, Id have kinda thought everyone would be prejudiced against things that EAT PEOPLE.

This.

[Stahlseele]

Anybody Prejudiced against Dragons?
Speak up please.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Anybody Prejudiced against Dragons?
Speak up please.

If it was an option... Sure, but they never show enough presence in our game to matter at all...

Now Ghouls... or Elves, or those stupid Trogs....... Now we are talking...

[Larme]

Huh,
I get the impression, thats an impression folks not a fact, that most people are referring to obvious prejudice. Obvious prejudice is the "pralines and d***" of character traits. Its got no class, not style, no danger. And its easy to pull off because its almost farcical. For frag's sake, its something *I* could pull off.

What do you mean, no danger? Are you telling me that an anti-troll racist who can't hold his tongue isn't in danger when he meets a group of troll gangers? As for a lack of class or style, that's kind of the point. Many people will think less of you, even if they're not part of the same race, because of your non-classy bigotry, especially Shadowrunners, who tend to be more accepting of other races than mainstream society. And easy to pull off, sure. But why does that matter? Flaws need to be difficult to roleplay now?

Now, take a character who is not obviously prejudiced, is not outspoken and may even have "some elven friends". The character who makes subtle choices. The one who rationalizes their acts of hatred. "I can't stabilize him till we finish the firefight". That is character and if not played over the top, it represents the real problem of prejudice. Those who are prejudiced and haven't quite figured it out yet are the most dangerous, to themselves and others.

For those Magnum P.I. fans, and really, who the frag isnt?, there is a great episode on the subject. Most of it having to do with Higgins' prejudice against the Irish.

You're correct that the worst kind of racism today is subtle, maybe even unconscious racism. It's not about lynching people of other races, it's about treating them worse without really admitting what you're doing. That's the kind of racism that creates a widespread social disadvantage for minorities, even in the face of laws designed to prevent discrimination. But honestly, you can't compare that kind of racism to what existed in the South before the civil rights movement. Maybe your point is, if people don't know they're racist, others won't predict when they do a racist act. If they're overtly racist, then you know not to trust them. That might be true, but only in settings where trust matters. In settings that involve a face to face confrontation, I'd much rather be facing the guy who rationalizes his racism and keeps it to himself, than the guy who wants to strangle me just because of how I was born. Sure, I'll be more on my guard against the rabid murdering racist, but if he's stronger than me, or if he has a bunch of armed friends, I have to say I consider him the most dangerous kind of racist. The subtly prejudiced guy might be thinking negative stereotypes when he meets me, but I'm pretty sure it won't devolve into murder.

[HappyDaze]

Prejudice against really uncommon targets - like dragons and AIs - or against target groups that should be disliked - like insect spirits and shedim - really shouldn't quaify to give you BPs.

[Fuchs]

What do you mean, no danger? Are you telling me that an anti-troll racist who can't hold his tongue isn't in danger when he meets a group of troll gangers? As for a lack of class or style, that's kind of the point. Many people will think less of you, even if they're not part of the same race, because of your non-classy bigotry, especially Shadowrunners, who tend to be more accepting of other races than mainstream society. And easy to pull off, sure. But why does that matter? Flaws need to be difficult to roleplay now?

If in Shadowrun many people will think less of someone for hating ghouls then that's no longer a game I want to play.

[Larme]

If in Shadowrun many people will think less of someone for hating ghouls then that's no longer a game I want to play.

I wasn't talking about ghouls, they're definitely a separate case, being Infected and eating human flesh and whatnot. But there would be people who think less of you if you hate trogs, elves, or dwarves. Or humans, for that matter.

[BlueMax]

What do you mean, no danger? Are you telling me that an anti-troll racist who can't hold his tongue isn't in danger when he meets a group of troll gangers? As for a lack of class or style, that's kind of the point. Many people will think less of you, even if they're not part of the same race, because of your non-classy bigotry, especially Shadowrunners, who tend to be more accepting of other races than mainstream society. And easy to pull off, sure. But why does that matter? Flaws need to be difficult to roleplay now?

I don't think obvious is dangerous past a few sessions. Hate brings down its own justice. An obvious X hater will only set the group up for trouble, danger and death.

Even Brackhaven's work is obfuscated (From the public point of view, not the "I read the GM section" view). Words are chosen to imply. That's many shades safer than wearing the hood with the Ear it.

BlueMax