D20 Shadowrun, to D20 or not to D20? Options

[last_of_the_grea...]

Due to another thread I didn't want to disrupt further, I decided to open a dedicated one.

Personally, I enjoy Shadowrun and it's "D6 system." I also enjoy D&D 3.0 (I never got 3.5 'cause I'm poor). I like them for different reasons. I like D&D/D20 for the simplicity and ease of play, as well as the genericity (is that a word?).

Shadowrun has a solid background and good support for it's source material.

D20 has several different sets of source material, some good, some bad and some plain average. The choice to buy and use remains yours.

Shadowrun has mucho flexibility in character generation that advance slowly.

D20 has easy to understand classes that start out not as flexible, but built for the job and allowing for some style and advance with noticable results quickly.

If D20 went toe to toe with Shadowrun using just the core system, I'd have to say shadowrun wins. D20's strength is in the open game licence. This guarantees continuous support for the product, but on a buyer beware basis.

All in all, I see no problem with liking both.

[Phaeton]

Simplicity my arse. I like the tables in the SR3 main manual a hella more than the D&D manuals.

But, my 2 :nuyen: is...NO. NO. FOR LOVE OF GOD AND ALL THAT IS HOLY NUUUUUUUUUUUU...

[Adarael]

Shadowrun inherently works against the style of any level-based system; a shadowrun character should not have a series of epiphanies, suddenly being able to spend of bunch of skillpoints but ONLY after those ephiphanies. I've never seen a d20 game that wasn't level-based.

Class-wise, I don't think there'd be much of a problem. Shadowrun's soft-class based anyhow.

I can't think of any d20 games that don't use hit points - and I find that vaguely bothersome. Staging of damage/grades of success could be worked into the amount over the TN you hit on your rolls - like Legend of the 5 Rings, but with the 'raises' L5R has ocurring after the fact.

I dislike the nature of a flat 1-20 scale of probability. I like the sliding arc shadowrun's die system presents. It more accurately represents the differences between 'average' and 'professional' (let's say 2 and 4 dice, respectively) and the relatively small difference between master and grandmaster (let's say 8 and 10 dice, respectively).

I like feats. I like feats a lot. d20's got that, at least.

I like Shadowrun better. The system is tighter, more accurate, less prone to random results, and has dice pools. I love by dice pools. You'll have to pry them from my cold, dead hands.

[Solstice]

Well I feel basically the same way. However, the rediculous complexity of shadowrun rules really works against it IMO. It feels like you can not abritrate as much in Shadowrun like you can in D&D. Also I like d12, d20, d8, d10, d4 dice. :D Makes you feel like your playing something other than Yatzee!

[John Campbell]

The big flaw with the "one system to rule them all" attitude is that the game mechanics do affect the atmosphere of the game. For example, if you're a moderately experienced shadowrunner, and there's a punk pointing an Ares Predator at you, do you feel threatened? Now, if you're a 6th level street samurai, and you've got 56 hp, and there's a 1st level punk pointing a gun that does 1d8 damage at you, do you feel that same level of threat?

Game mechanics designed to allow heroic fighters to charge fearlessly into hordes of orcs and slaughter them by the dozens are not well-suited to a grittier game where, no matter how experienced you are, any punk with a gun and a decent skill stands a chance of capping you. This is not to say that game mechanics designed to allow for heroic fighters slaughtering orcs by the dozens are bad... just that they're not appropriate for the game I want to play. They're good rules for D&D, but Shadowrun is not - and, IMAO, should not be - just D&D with guns.

[Tanka]

But Yahtzee is fun!

[ting-bu-dong]

Hi,
I have tried to make a shadowrun d20 and it works fine for us *takes cover*. While both d20 and shadowrun are great systems, switching to a new system would have meant great effort in learning with minimum effect, as we already have enough work to do at school (a year before graduation and the school does the graduation process of three years in two).
It, in my opinion, does not matter whether you fire a Ares Predator at a corp guard, roll 10 dice, deal 9S, or point a Pred at a guard, roll one die, get a result of 24, and deal 11 points of damage. The point is that you fire a gun at a guard, its not the dice that count.
The reason why we left D&D for shadowrun d20 is the shadowrun background, its atmosphere and the genre, not the truckloads of dice, the dice pools and the modifier tables that take up page after page.

[Tanka]

[toturi]

[LoseAsDirected]

Check out the book 'Cybernet' by Mongoose Publishing. It's a d20 cyberpunk game.. Combine that with some other d20 rules (races and magic), and you've got a d20 Shadowrun.

Not that I'd play it.

Classes, levels, and hit points do NOT belong in a Shadowrun game.

[Playing Games]

No.becuase classes, levels, hit points, damage, skills, D20's,feats, rules,magic!

Classes,wile shadowrun has things like classes,it doesn't have them.Classes in D20 are pigon holes to place characters.The fighter,could never enjoy singing.The mage could never like swords,or whatever.By the way,if your good with a sword,you are just about as good with staff,but not always the other way around.

Level,and classes. Ugly,stuff.See, you have class levels,then total level.Now, you go up levels,based on a chart,and your total levels.This has 2 huge flaws.One, most classes has rules,and bonus tricks going up to the max amount levels you can take.So, if you multi class,ever you can't get those goodies.multi-classing makes it harder for you too level in past classes. A level 10 mage/7 fighter needs the same exp to level up in mage as a 17 mage.The power gain from level 10 to 11,is not as big as 17 to 18. Added to the fact that there are finite over all levels,means this mage's need to learn swords,not only made making her magical studies harder,it means there are some spells,she can never to learn.

Shadowrun,has problems like this,but not nearly the scale.Take skills,learning how drive doesn't make it harder to learn how to shot a gun,and being a B&E guy,doesn't make you more deadly verus tied up people.

The feats,are unbalanced,and often do "stunts",and nothing more,others are small amounts of skill points,and others are I kill,everyone in the room.

The magic,I mean I thought shadowrun magic was mathatical.(In a bad way),but in d20,you get x spells, of y level.You get them, z times in q time frame.Each spell, is as dry as and boring as Al Gore sleeping.

[ting-bu-dong]

[Siege]

Two things:

First: As Open Source material, you can download 3.5 from WotC for free. It lacks all the neat pictures and stuff, but you have all the necessary content.

Second: I really despise the d20 levels and whatnot, but you can make the game much more lethal by limiting hitpoints to (Str + Con)/2.

It's amazing how much more dangerous goblin archers become when you've only got 12 hit points and some change. :grinbig:

-Siege

[bwdemon]

1. D&D is NOT the d20 rule system. D&D is based off of d20, but d20 allows for far more than what is allowed in D&D. Please remember this for the future.

2. There are classless versions of d20. Please remember this for the future.

3. There are versions of d20 that do not use hit points. Instead, they use vitality points and wound points. Wound points are never raised, except through feats. Vitality points increase by level. You take vitality point damage until all of those are gone, then you take wound point damage. Critical hits bypass vitality point damage and go directly to wound point damage. So, with this mechanic, you should be really scared when someone points a Predator at you in d20 - far more so than in SR.

4. There are versions of d20 where armor reduces damage instead of increasing armor class. This is probably my favorite change from D&D.

5. The background of a game is not in any way hindered or helped by the game mechanics. All of the wonderful background material SR has would still be wonderful background material if the game system changed.

6. Bigger ranges in skill ranks and attributes allow for more precision and variety, while lessening the negative impact of average numbers and the unbalancing impact of larger numbers. Having a 10 Wisdom won't kill you outright in d20. Having a 2 Willpower is a death sentence in SR.

7. D20 systems allow characters to gain experience outside of combat. Again, please remember this in the future.

8. Stat + Skill systems are better than Skill-Only systems. Why? A character in SR with a 20 Quickness is better off never learning how to fire a pistol than he would be if he took the time to learn the basics. Even a character with a 3 Quickness is better off avoiding Pistols skill until he can get it at 2+ points.

9. SR's dice pool system is a horrible, horrible, mechanic that does not adequately reflect the attributes that apply to the skills in use. Going to Stat + Skill cures the ills inherent in the dice pool system. Before anyone whines about being able to fight defensively or offensively, there are feat and combat options that allow you to do the same under d20, even to varying degrees.

10. SR does not handle ambidexterity or two-weapon fighting well. D20 does just fine with both. SR does not handle automatic fire well. D20 does just fine with it.

11. SR is not a well-balanced system. D20 is a well-balanced system. By "balance", I mean that one point in one thing is worth no more and no less than one point in another.

12. SR's system is very complex and not very representative. There are people that have been playing SR for years that still don't interpret the rules correctly and there are plenty of vague issues out there that have never been solved officially (just look around this board). This complexity doesn't exactly draw new players in by droves. Anytime you're dealing with small dice pools (under 10-15) in a successes-based system, problems result from botches and a very restrictive cap on how well a person can possibly do on any given roll. When the dice are 6-sided, these problems magnify due to the limited number of possibilities. Critical failures are less common in d20 (need a natural 1 and a failed save). Using the d20 mechanic listed in #3 above, even a chump thug can kill a character with a couple good rolls. You'll never see a chump thug kill (or even harm) a shadowrunner by shooting at him under SR3, unless the GM (or the player) really screws the PC in question.

I'd be very interested in a d20 version of SR. In fact, I'd probably steal the resulting SR spellcasting mechanic for use in D&D games (I never liked the spell memorizing thing). I think it'd be a great move for the game.

[mfb]

playing games, your arguments would be more convincing if you used actual evidence (they'd also be more convincing if you used the spacebar more often, and maybe the spellchecker). you say "feats are unbalancing", but never explain--why are they unbalancing? what do they unbalance?

as for magic--maybe you could offer an alternative? you say shadowrun is "mathatical" which i assume would be bad if it were a real word, but D&D magic is worse because it has q's and z's and x's. so, how should magic work?

bw, i have to disagree with some of your statements. a point of Str, in d20, is worth more than a point of any other stat in most cases. most of the rolls that any character makes will be for attack and damage, which Str affects. i also disagree about autofire--i don't think either system handles it accurately.

your #12 argument suffers from insanity. even with the vitality points mechanic, a chump thug is much less likely to kill someone in d20 than they are in SR. SR is much more random, and randomness--as the guys at WotC are fond of reminding us--increases the odds for the underdog.

[KarmaInferno]

[mfb]

it's different because a 40 kp runner would be, in d20 terms, epic. the now, if you're talking the diff between a 40 karma runner and a staring-level char...

[KarmaInferno]

Sorry, meant 40 karma. Fingers were typing faster than brain was operating.

But still, my point is the same. Any experienced character in nearly any game can expect to thrash a newly created one. It's the nature of character development.

[mfb]

you've got a point, but 40 karma isn't really enough of a difference to matter. and, as a counterpoint, i've seen a 9th-level rogue take on and beat a 13th-level fighter, on ground that favored the fighter (flat, open).

[CanvasBack]

I used to love AD&D 2nd ed. But then, that game was "DIABLO"-ized in 3.0 and made so even more in 3.5...

I like SR3 the way it is and I will stop playing it if they do something assinine like convert it to the d20 system. Just my 2 yen....

[mfb]

bah, 2nd ed sucked. you want to talk about a game that straightjacketed you in its class system! and the saving throws--what were those? those made no sense. and don't get me started on THAC0!

[LoseAsDirected]

Likewise. I don't dislike the d20 system. I enjoy it for its simplicity.. But I only play it when I want heroic type of games..

I like more lethal systems for my real games.

[mfb]

i sorta agree, in that the d20 system needs modification to be lethal the way SR is. but it can be modified to be as lethal/realistic, or moreso, than SR--i'm a big fan of Spycraft's rules, myself.

[Siege]

Actually, there is a difference:

A 20th level mage is inherently tougher than a 1st level fighter in terms of hit points and saving throws.

A 100 point karma experienced character is still more or less human in the same vein as a newbie character.

The spells/cyberware/magic items become relatively immaterial for purposes of power escalation.

If we maintain this line of thought, the 20th level character can still laugh at a dagger or a goblin's arrow while the first level character should be rightly afraid of impending doom.

Oh gawd, I've jumped into the "why I despise the d20 system" rant. :grinbig:

-Siege

[mfb]

yes, the base d20 system is heroic fantasy. got that. however, like i said, there are numerous alternate rulesets and campaign settings that are as lethal or more lethal than SR. Spycraft, to reuse my example--and Spycraft has better armor rules, too.

[Playing Games]

Spells, you get x spells of y level.You get those spells,and nothing else.You can't say,cast bunch of small spells,or a few large spells.Shadowrun,you cast spells based on how much your willing to put into it.IE you can cast, force one spells,all day,but only a few high force spells.

Let's look at feats.Some of them,act as small amounts of extra skills.Some act as giving you armies(leadership).Some act as giving you whole new skills(wilderness lore).Some give you +1 to hit,or damage with one weapon(weapon focus...).Some give extra attacks.(cleave)

1. D&D is NOT the d20 rule system. D&D is based off of d20, but d20 allows for far more than what is allowed in D&D. Please remember this for the future.

2. There are classless versions of d20. Please remember this for the future.

3. There are versions of d20 that do not use hit points. Instead, they use vitality points and wound points. Wound points are never raised, except through feats. Vitality points increase by level. You take vitality point damage until all of those are gone, then you take wound point damage. Critical hits bypass vitality point damage and go directly to wound point damage. So, with this mechanic, you should be really scared when someone points a Predator at you in d20 - far more so than in SR.

4. There are versions of d20 where armor reduces damage instead of increasing armor class. This is probably my favorite change from D&D.

But,these problem points are almost always the default.Your anwsers to these sore spots,are minorities.

6. Bigger ranges in skill ranks and attributes allow for more precision and variety, while lessening the negative impact of average numbers and the unbalancing impact of larger numbers. Having a 10 Wisdom won't kill you outright in d20. Having a 2 Willpower is a death sentence in SR.

Yes,and at the same time you have even less reason to make rounded characters.As in D20, each skill point,both cost the same,and improves your chances at the same rate.5%.

Now,you want wide number ranges,with a little work you can change shadowrun into a D10 system.You only need to fix karma,and change a few numbers,most of witch can be done by times all numbers by 1.6 and rounding down.

11. SR is not a well-balanced system. D20 is a well-balanced system. By "balance", I mean that one point in one thing is worth no more and no less than one point in another.

Counter point,neither is in d20.Let's take d20 stats,the thing you have such love for.Some of them are progressive,others aren't.Your con gives you points to skills,and also gives you hit points per-level.Not all the sats have the same amount of skills,and I highly doubt you prove me that the skill spread is remotely balanced.

[Siege]

[mfb]

you still haven't answered the question of how feats are unbalancing. what do they do that unbalances the game?

actually, you're mistaken about the default rules--most games with a 'modern' setting use vitality points and other alternate rules to make the system more lethal.

why do you have less reason to make rounded characters? is the fact that each point changes your percent chance by 5% change the fact that if you dump all your points into Climb and Jump, you're going to be a social martian?

what's "unbalanced" about the skill spread? you keep using that word, and i'm starting to think that maybe it doesn't mean what you think it means.

and for god's sake, put some freakin' spaces after your punctuation. that's what spaces are for.

[CanvasBack]

For me, I don't like or dislike the class system. It has its merits, chiefly in the fact that a GM should be able to guage the level of challenge for his players much more easily. In SR, I do think that any gutter-punk can take out a corporate goon, given the right circumstances and in that way, it's a lot different in terms of setting up runs/adventures.

BTW, if you crack open some 1st ed AD&D books, and find the "to hit" tables you'll realize why Thac0 was a pretty impressive step forward in terms of playability. Unfortunately, some people can only add and not subtract. Looking back on it, it did kind of thin the herd so to speak... oh well. :twirl:

P.S. For a brief period I did run a Mighty Fortress campaign. If anybody has the green books they'll know what I'm talking about. The rules for excessive damage due to firearms I thought were quite workable and at times not very survivable at all, which I do think is a stark contrast to the direction d20 modern or future oriented campaigns went, from what I can tell.

[Ancient History]

I will say this...under the OGL, Mutants and MAsterminds is probably the best game out there.

It's level based, but incremental instead of XP-based (kinda like karma). There are no classes. Character creation is incredibly flexible. Probably the best super-hero system ever, and easily adaptable to nearly any other setting.

[Connor]

Nevermind... AH got it out while I was typing and being slow about it.

[leemur]

[Lilt]

IMHO D20 SR is a bad idea as it encourages combat-oriented games. The mechanics I dislike the most are the level/experience system, the base attack bonus (and how goes up with your level) and hit-points (and how they go up with your level). The class system also encourages stereotypical characters and penalises flexibility.

My reasons?
XP/levels: Firstly we have the fact that awarding XP for kills (as almost every single D20 game I have seen does) encourages killing. Secondly we have the fact that characters instantly become more powerful, and cannot be truly good at something without being a high level.
Fixes: Award XP for whole runs (awarding 0XP for individual kills) and allow characters to spend XP independently

Level-based Base attack bonus: For some reason it is impossible to become better at anything without becoming better at hitting stuff with the soggy end of your opponent's own limbs. My character has certainly not practiced this, so why should he be better at it?
Fixes: Have a skill based combat system that you can put up if you want to

HP: Again my character has not been practicing dodging/taking bullets during the soggy-end-of-limb-combat training he has not had, so why should he be better at it?
Fixes: Use a different damage system

Classes: The class system gives characters set bonuses and abilities, which is OK to some extent as you can multi-class to get the abilities that you want, but there are both basic (IE: not being able to cast the next level of spells, having 1 less caster level) and XP penalties applied to multi-classing. Very often, taking a class will give you abilities that you don't want, especially if the ability you want is not a 1st level one.
Fixes: Don't use a class-based system

Now I'm not saying that the SR system is perfect but why should we switch to a different system which is so fundamentally flawed?

@mfb: SPYCRAFT: Deadly? ROTFL! :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:
I'm sorry, but in the single spycraft campaign I saw played (it was being run next to the game I was playing in): people held iron-man competitions to see who could Spacewalk without space-suits for the longest. This was following the competitions where they saw who could leap off a skyscraper the most times and survive, and how instead of buying parachutes the group simply lept from planes as then they couldn't be shot at as they cam in to land or as they escaped the entangled parachute. They also discovered that the most deadly weapon was the Fire-Extinguisher+Piton combo: Hit someone with a fire extinguisher and they become helpless so you can follow-up with a climbing piton for a coup-de-gras.

[Playing Games]

[mfb]

*sigh* you gain XP for defeating foes. if the bad guys run away because you Intimidated them to hell and back, you get the XP. if you snuck around them, you get the XP. if you waded in and slaughtered them, you get the XP. if you paid them 200gp to sod off, you get the XP.

in most games--SR, D&D--involve combat to a heavy degree. how realistic is it for a shaman to spend gobs of karma on initiation, spells, ally spirits, etc., and never get better at combat?

and the single Spycraft game you saw played isn't exactly iron-clad evidence.

playing games, you're not taking into account the fact that different classes emphasize different attributes. yeah, Str is good--but if i'm a rogue, i'd rather have Dex. if i'm a Paladin, Cha is pretty important because it modifies nearly everything i do. if i'm a wizard, who cares about Str? it's all about the Int.

what you're talking about is variety. variety is a good thing.

[Playing Games]

MFB, I was talking about D20.Not D&D.You can't eat your cake,and have it too.

If you defend D20,as not being D&D.You shouldn't use D&D to defend D20.

[John Campbell]

[mfb]

sure i can, playing games. see, all the other d20 games have character types (whether class-based or not) that emphasize different ability scores, too.

[Playing Games]

[mfb]

character types--like "i'm a fast guy who uses two swords," "i'm a friendly spellcaster", "i'm a detective"--are integral to gaming, period. if you don't have a character concept, i'm not sure what you're doing at the table.

and the fact that different characters emphasize different stats is my entire point--for character A, Cha might not be important; for character B, it might be everything.

[Playing Games]

But you pointed out a paladin Cha's saving grace.

And wile character types are in everygame, on some level not all are classes.Not every breaking and entering guy is good at back stabbing,every duel sword welder is good in the woods and is racist.

You confuse classes,for character types.So,when you used character type,in the context of character class,I did as well.

In shadowrun what does it take to be a decker?basically,some skills and hardware, this take karma,money and time.This doesn't inharitly make it harder for you to learn to be a face.Yes you will behind in points compared to pure faces or pure deckers,but it still costs the same amount of karma to raise computer skill,for the face/decker as it does for the decker.In the class system of D20, it would cost the face/decker more exp for each level of decker,than the decker.admittedly some classes get the same power,and ticker tape each level,others don't. In my first case it is rather clear(the fighter/mage).The mage being a back loaded class,heavily dependant on class levels.This fighter mage is getting less mojo for his exp than a pure mage.

Oh,and what about shadowrun mages and cyberware.True,becoming a cyber shaman does mean you will pay more karma raise your magic up to the same level as the pure shaman.But there isn't a finite amount of karma you can gain,there is a finite amount of levels, so threoreticly you can gain as much magic,if not more magic with your cyber shaman,over the pure one.In D20, you get a finite amount levels.So basically you would have to make characters in shadowrun have a limit to how much karma they can get,too get the real same effects.

[Adarael]

[The Synthcat]

Maybe I'm just wrong but... doesn't the standard rule about botches stipulates that to actually botch you need to have 1s for half or more of the total of dices you roll ( no matter is you've got successes with the other dices ) ? That means that if you've got a skill at 1, 2 or 3, you botch really often. My mage character has conjuring(3) and I will NOT try to conjure anything stronger than force 3 ( or 4 if I really have too, feel lucky, and have some trained back-up with me ! ) for that reason. Botches in that shadowrun system happen fairly often and if they don't in your games, well, either you're just really lucky, the characters have no skill below 4 or you don't apply the rules the same way I do ( or I'm just very unlucky, a possibility I will not discard ) !

Just a question, if I may ask, I've playied Dnd 3rd ed ( but not 3.5 ) and one of the things ( albeit a minor one ) that bugged me out was that a character whose HPs were dangerously low can use skills, fight and use magic with the same efficiency as if he was not hurt. Again, maybe it's just me, but that isn't realistic at all. If I'm close to unconsciousness because of a wound or because of a sickness, I probably won't be able to do what I can do when I'm in perfect shape. Is the flaw ( IMHO it is clearly one ! ) still unresolved in the D20 version of shadowrun ?

I never liked class-based system, mostly because I've got a fondness for making rather unusual characters and I find class-based system to rigid ( and, again, in my humble opinion, primitive is a way ). By "primitive" I mean that they're a very good way to show someone what role-playing games are, and to help him flesh out a character and guide him with the character's progression. I've got some year of experience playing RPGs and I feel that I don't need a game system to tell me which skill my character needs...

I don't like the idea of spells per day. Even in Dnd, I hated it. Spell memorization is a chore best avoided. ( yes, of course I did select today that one particular spell I don't take usually ! If I wrote that down somewhere... ? Well, I thought I told you ! If you don't remember that's not *my* fault, is it ?) But that is just a personnal opinion not based on other facts than personal experience :cool:

Another thing I've noticed is that the inherent complexity of the shadowrun system makes it harder to munchkin it out ( unless, of course, the player is quite dedicated ). It's not that hard to pick good cybernetic for a sammie, but it took me quite a while to understand just how all the drone-related, decking-related, otaku abilities, ECM and ECCM rules work. I don't think that I master them well enough to do any better than a 'good' character... so forget about munchkin ! and I definitely do fall into the 'dedicated player' category. However, it wasn't long before I figured out how to make a pretty damn strong character for DnD... is it just me ?

[mfb]

what? playing games, you're skipping around. yes, i used the paladin as an example--but that's just one example. whether you're playing with the D&D core classes or Spycraft's modern classes or the d20 Modern stat-based classes or Call of Cthulu's classless system, you can build characters who emphasize some stats over others. you're also mistaken about the limits--you can multiclass as much as you want, in D&D. nor are there a finite number of levels you can gain--if you want to get into games of level 20+, there are rules to support it. there aren't many games that go that high--but there aren't many games in SR that go above 500 karma, either.

i don't feel 'limited' by d20's class-based system at all. matter of fact, i'd challenge anybody here to come up with a concept i can't fulfill, in d20.

and the idea that "SR is hard to munchkin out" stands on its own absurdity, so i'm not going to bother disproving it.

[John Campbell]

[toturi]

I took 2 days to figure out how to make a good powergame D20 charactor. But I took only 2 hours to do it right in Shadowrun.

[Lilt]

[Xirces]

[mfb]

an example? okay. Our Hero has 13 Con, ergo 13 wound points. he's walking down the street, and some punk decides to shoot him with his .44 revolver and take his wallet. Our Hero rolls to listen, and it comes up a 1; the GM spens an action point, making that a critical failure. the GM then rolls for the punk to shoot, and gets a 19--he's rolling hot tonight. he spends another action point, making it a critical hit. the 2d6+2 damage the punk rolls are subtracted directly from Our Hero's wound points, potentially bringing Our Hero from full health to -2 vp and dying in one shot.

characters suddenly becoming more powerful through level advancement is no stranger than characters suddenly gaining extra dice to shoot their pistol. it's a game mechanic. the division between 'powerups' is a bit sharper in d20, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist in SR.

SR is much more logical and open? really? then why is it that someone who knows how to throw baseballs (throwing weapons 3) can suddenly gauge the point at which he should release a throwing knife, to hit a given target point-first? why is it that rounds designed to pierce hardened armor (AV ammo) are on an equal footing with armor-piercing rounds when it comes to personal armor? why is it that different types of bone lacing have different essence costs, when the procedure for implanting each type should logically be the same? why can't smartlinks work with electronic scopes? why does a person do worse by actually learning a point of skill, than by defaulting to a high stat?

and if SR is malleable, d20 is infinitely moreso. do i need to start naming the countless d20 rules variants to be found out there?

[Prototype]

Everyone here loves banging on about how lethal SR is and how gutterpunks can scare even the most battle hardened shadowrunners, etc.

My question is... how?

Even a starting character in SR has little or no reason to fear street punks unless they have some decidedly non-street punk weapons!

What ork street sammie doesn't start the game with body 10+ (11 or 15 depending on whether you like dermal or orthoskin!) and at least 8 points of ballistic armour? This guy loves getting shot at by pistols... he positively lives for it! BLAM! BLAM! 'Keep 'em coming boys!' he shouts... BLAM! BLAM! 'Damn that feels nice... like raindrops... pitter patter!'

Even the mage is probably gonna have combat pool 7 or 8, Body of at least 3 and a minimum 5 points of armour... and that's if he's poorly designed! Plus, the moment the street punk shoots him he soaks it down and cracks out a Force 6 Manabolt with Sorcery 6, a bunch of spell pool and the punk is junk!

Characters in SR are ridiculously tough. They're hard as nails and can kick ass like nobody else. A starting street sam could probably quite easily go toe to toe with as many 'average' punks as you like without any problems.

Somebody who likes maths can solve this equation for me...

First some definitions...

Gang Punk: All stats at 4, Karma Pool 1, Brawling 4, Edged Weapons 4, Pistols 4, Gear: Ares Predator, Knife, Synthleather Jacket (0/2)

Ork Street Sam: B15, Q9, S12, CIW 4, Initiative 3d6+12 (very low!), Karma Pool 1, Ambidexterity 8, Pistols 6, Martial Art that allows Whirling probably with Edged Weapons ™ 6, Edged Weapons 6, SMG 6, Smartlink, Enhanced Articulation, Couple of Reflex Recorders, etc. Gear: Ares Predator III x2, Ingram Smartguns (Gas Vent IV, Personalised Grip, Underbarrel Weight, Yawn!) x2, Katana (Dikoted, of course!), Cougar Fineblade Knife (Dikoted), Secure Jacket + Form Fitting III (With cyber gives armour 8/6)

Now, solve for X...

X (Gang Punks) = Dead (Ork Street Sam)

Any takers? Can they kill him? No, never, they haven't a hope in hell. Unless the GM cracks out some 'There are 50 gadzillion of them, of course they win' ruling or some 'There's so many he slips a gun in your mouth, your dead' BS ™ then he's wading through them like dogshit.

He's pretty much a starting character, okay, you can whine about availability at chargen of one or two items, and you'll probably say he's munchie or something. But he's totally valid and can still be a well rounded character... totally achievable within a few sessions play and he would whip gang punks silly all day long.

Sorry, rant over! We return you to your regularly scheduled service!

[Austere Emancipa...]

Proto: For an honest comparison, take e.g. a level 5 d20 cyberpunk character and face it off against a few gangers.

In most d20 games I know of, starting characters really are just starting out. A D&D level 1 fighter might never have fought in real combat. A D&D level 1 mage is likely to be straight out of a magic college. A (canon) beginning SR character has been in the business for a long time. To get a feeling for which is more "lethal", the SR d6 system or the d20 system, you'd need to compare two characters of similar amounts of experience (not in terms of game mechanics, but in actual time and effort in the business).

But I'm not going to argue for or against in this issue. I use SR d6 because I like the principle. I can see how others might like d20 more. Why people are so passionate about this, I'll never understand. Might as well argue which is better: Bread or porridge. Soups or solid foods.

[L.D]

I've stayed out of this discussion, but now I can't anymore.

Prototype, that sammie is ridiculus. A starting initiative of 12+3D6 isn't low. That's better than the sammie in the BBB.

I've been playing SR for quite some time and I've never seen a character with stats as high as those, specially not a starting character. If you play on that level, then of course those gangers aren't gonna hurt him, but if you have a lower powerlevel then that, then those same gangers are gonna be a problem.

Here are some stats for the meanest character I've GM:ed the last couple of years:

Body 10 (11)
Quickness 7 (9)
Strength 9 (11)
Charisma 5
Intelligence 4 (5)
Willpower 6
Reaction 7 (11)
Initiative 1D6 (3D6)
Combat Pool: 10
SKILLS
Pistols 6
SMG 6
Assault Rifles 5
Karate 7

And this is after more than 200 karma.

[Raptor1033]

well i did have a nice long post, but somehow it all got deleted before i posted it, time for slight shorthand :( i like em both for different reasons, gm's getting new rules for buying advancement with xp instead of level based for d&d. hopefully will be better

[Lilt]

Hmm? 2d6+2 has a mean of 9. How exactly does 13 - 9 = -2?

[Zazen]

[Prototype]

L.D. that sammie I posted is not ridiculous in the slightest. If you want ridiculous I could post any number of characters that would no doubt garner howls of derision from the Dumpshock natives.

What I struggle to believe is that thing you posted... I assume he is an ork? If not those are some screwy numbers you have in there! So, working with that assumption he's got no business calling himself a sammie! How did he earn his 200 karma... flipping burgers? Because if he'd been Shadowrunning for 200 karma he could probably afford some half decent cyber and bio!

Chargen treat stats are easy... Body 6, +3 for being an Ork, +1 for Suprathyroid, +2 Titanium Bone Lacing and +4 from Dermal Sheath 3 = 16. Even a human can have Body 13 quite easily by doing that... and let's face it, any sammie who intends to get into a fight would be foolish for not going down that road at least some of the way.

As for initiative, okay, maybe my crack about very low was slightly tongue in cheek... but it's an easily attainable initiative. At character generation you can easily have a Quickness and Intelligence of 9 (assuming your GM allows bioware) for Reaction 9 + Suprathyroid + Enhanced Artic + Wired 2 + Reaction Enhancers = 16-21 +3d6. Though I suppose some people favour the Boosted and Synaptic Accel. option, but that's less legal for chargen.

Anyway, we all know what you can do, and it's not like these characters have to be like Body guy or Reaction guy... you can give them rounded skillsets and make them into excellent characters and not just an exercise in rules buggery. The bottom line is, I never saw a street sam that should fear a few gang punks.

On a related note... can we have fun converting SR characters to D&D... can we, please, huh? huh?

Take my ork from a few posts ago...

In D&D he pretty much has Str 40, Dex 30, Con 50 and CIW 13... he get's approximately 10 attacks a round and is an absolute master of two-weapon fighting, has a bunch of skills at totally amazing levels (so he must be a pretty decent level) and has weapons and armour that are off the charts. What a guy!

[Tanka]

Well, for one, what you posted is an SR2 character. Ambidex is now an Edge, not a skill.

And where do you get Int 9 from? In SR2, sure. Starting in SR3? No. The highest (If your GM allows Cultured Bio) would be an 8. Encephalon no longer adds itself straight to Int.

And that ain't a Street Sammie, that's a gunbunny. The Street Sammie wouldn't have even been noticed by the Street Punk.

Street Samurai are not all about killing and maiming, despite popular opinion.

[Prototype]

No. It is an SR3 character. I think I know the difference.

Ambidexterity is an edge. It's an edge that comes in 2, 4, 6 and 8 point versions. When posting on a board such as this it helps to define which the character has. Speaking of edges, Exceptional Attribute (Intelligence) is also one... taking this will allow you to have Intelligence 7 with a Cerebral Booster for 9.

Why is he a gunbunny? What does that even mean? He can have Stealth 6 which with his Enhanced Articulation makes him nice and sneaky, give him Negotiation 6, Electronics 6 and here we have the makings of a character even! Oh, and with his high intelligence he probably spots your Sammie then uses his amazing speed to take him out before you even get around to rolling your 2d6+5 initiative.

Why make crap characters when you can have good ones? Does it make you feel proud to go in and say 'Look Momee! I made a shadowrunner who only uses hold-out pistols!' or would your mates riot if they found out you'd bought a trauma damper?

Just being tough, strong and fast doesn't make a character a killing machine. It just means he's better at killing when he needs to.

[Lilt]

It has to be said that almost every archetype can kill about as many street-punks as they have bullets... Mages invis themselves and rain-down spells. Riggers open-up with drones mounting automatic weapons and 5 points of vehicle armour... I don't see how a street sam, fully prepared and in full combat gear, being able to munch through weak goons indefinately is too powerful. It still takes only one of them, however, to kill him if he dosen't know they're there (called shot to ignore armor + some aiming).

This post has been edited by Lilt: Jan 17 2004, 06:03 PM

[bwdemon]

[Austere Emancipa...]

Prototype: And now create the most bad-ass level 5 FighterHunterKillerMasterSlayer (or whatever such classes are called in the modern d20s), and see how many level 1 average gangers he can beat with the d20 rules.

Since you apparently ignored me the first time around, I'll say it again: Starting characters in SR are nothing like starting characters in most d20 games.

If your problem is that you think SR starting characters are too powerful, just use Point Buy with less points, or BeCKS with a reasonably low Karma limit. If your problem is that people think SR is lethal while you routinely min/max yourself starting characters that can kick any GDs ass... then you're just being silly.

[LoseAsDirected]

[Tanka]

Wait... SR isn't lethal?! Who the frag is your GM, and tell him to rethink things.

Slums, Bad Cops, Bad Sec Boys, Gangs, Yaks, Triads, Mafia, Rings... How are they not lethal?

[Prototype]

Hmmm, okay, let's assume they can call a shot and ignore armour, base TN is 4 (short range, generous, but still), target is stationary, called shot and then aiming twice... still TN5. Mr. Punk rolls his 8 dice (4 skill + 4 pool) and gets 3 successes (slightly above average, but hey) he even uses his one point of karma for a reroll and gets that up to 4 successes. Hmmm, looks bad for Mr. Sammy eh?

Now, Mr. Sammy doesn't get combat pool because he's surprised... but he does get his natural armour so we're resisting 8M +4 successes, eh? I take my 15 Body dice and score on average 2 successes... could go for a reroll and I'm virtually assured the 1 more success I need to take a Moderate, chances are I'll get two. My platelet factory and trauma damper aren't surprised and they change that nasty shot to a box on each condition monitor. I'm really worried at this point... I forgot to take symbiotes, but with my Quick Healer edge (who doesn't have it!) I'll probably be feeling fine in oh, about 3 hours. Ouch! That hurt!

At this point we roll initiative, I make a couple of perception tests and then annihilate Mr. Gang Punk and his pals till the cows come home.

Sure, they can crack out the called shots and a few of them might get lucky... but with movement, cover, getting in fights, etc. I'm probably going to be able to dodge most of them and soak the rest. Plus, once he's hit me once I'll put the hood on my Form Fitting on... where's he calling shots to now? I've got 5 points of Ballistic all-over baby!

[moosegod]

In answer to the idea of this thread...

well, I don't think I need to register my feelings.

[Tanka]

Oh, I forgot this:

Sure, he can take a hit. And, sure, you can throw him more skills... But what are his social interactions going to be with bullet holes in his clothes and cyber sticking out?

Just because you can twink an SR character doesn't mean you have to. Hell, I've made Trolls that go against the norm of "Me Hulk me smash!" Troll Combat Mages, for one. I'm NPCing a Troll Conjuring Adept. I've even had Troll B&E experts. Same with Orks. I've also had Elven gunbunnies.

I know that all is way off topic, but, honestly Prototype, you're taking something that was made just to take bullets, which, in essnece, is a gunbunny.

[Lilt]

[LoseAsDirected]

I have, to this date, had 2 characters die in any d20 game. I have only lost 1 character of my own in any d20 game.

I have, to this date, had over 30 characters die in my Shadowrun games. I have lost about 4 of my own characters.

[Tanka]

Another fun fact in the games I've played: One player lost three characters in one night. Yup. Three.

I guess that means SR isn't lethal, huh? :please:

[Prototype]

Now, to address some other points...

Tanka - I'm the GM... and I make sure things are fairly dangerous in my games, but you just can't do lethality in the 'anyone with a gun is a threat' sense. The skills system and everything else in the game is against it. In SR terms, if I pick up a .44 Magnum, walk up to someone and pull the trigger I'd probably struggle to do them a Moderate wound (Q4 against TN6 minimum!) - is that in any way realistic! No, obviously not. Now if the PC's go trolling round the Barrens I usually have most gang punks run the other way - cause they sure as hell ain't hurting them. The PC's are all about the 200 karma mark and pretty well designed. Sure, they have trouble with corp strike teams, ghosts, banded, anyone with APDS, etc. but against run of the mill gangers they have little or no fear.

Additionally, we've had characters that go against the grain. I'm sure we all have. But the guys I'm talking about don't have to be made of metal. Most of their stuff isn't picked up on a routine inspection... reflex triggers, etc. Okay, dermal sheath and the like maybe, but even that's not child's play to spot. You can be a 'gun bunny' as you say and a character, even a character who's good at non-fighting things.


Austere - I didn't ignore you. My point was less about D20 vs. SR and more about SR's legendary 'lethality' - off topic I know, but that's why I didn't justify myself to you. My analysis of starting SR characters was just to dispute the 'lethality' claims. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the whole D&D starting characters are pish thing! Although I reckon a level 1 fighter has probably been in a few scraps!

I don't think the starting characters are too powerful in SR, I like them the way they are. I'm just saying that this rumoured lethality is total nonsense. In SR I could, as the rules are written, leap from a 4 storey building and probably take a moderate wound... or jump in front of a car travelling at 30mph with little appreciable damage! Guns are apparently only dangerous in the hands of those who know how to use them and if two untrained humans get in a fistfight they apparently stand around bitch slapping each other all day!

LoseAsDirected - Your SR games sound fairly dangerous... but with magic, overflow, trauma patches and decent biotech SR characters lives should only really be endangered through extreme stupidity! They can take poundings all day long and keep coming back for more!

Lilt - I don't send below par gangers up against my runners. In fact, 99% of the time I find myself having to upgrade the bad guys in any of the published modules. Take the arcology for example, the Banded are a joke compared to your average PC... but they should be a fearsome foe! Here's my take on a level 3 Banded...

B11, Q10, S10, C3, I6, W6, 4d6+17 Initiative, Assault Rifles 4/5, Athletics 4/5, Biotech 4, Edged Weapons 6/7, Electronics 4, Etiquette 2 (Corporate 4), Karate 6/7, Leadership 3, Pistols 5/6, SMG 6/7, Stealth 5/6, Throwing 4/5, Snake Eyes Interface (Full-X, Rating 8), Auto-Injector w/Cutter Nanites x5 (Didn't Deus realise 1 dose won't kill a tough guy?), Reusable Auto-Injector (5 dose capacity), Reusable Auto-Injector (5 dose capacity), Dedicated Chipjack (Deus BTL Program), Invoked Memory Stimulator, Router w/10 Ports, Cyberears, Cybereyes, Orientation System w/Battletac Cyberlink, Reaction Enhancers 3, Smartlink-2, Biomonitor w/Diagnosis Processor, Ceramic Bone Lacing, Reaction Enhancer 5, Boosted Reflexes 3, Dermal Sheath 2, Air/Blood/Ingested Toxin Filter (Rating 4), Platelet Factory, Trauma Damper, Muscle Toner 3, Muscle Augmentation 3, Suprathyroid, Enhanced Articulation, Synaptic Accelerator 1, Cerebral Booster 1, Heavy Security Armour, Form Fitting Shirt, explosive ammunition for SCK Model 100, EX-Explosive ammunition for Browning Max-Power and 2 IPE Defensive Grenades.

Now that's more challenging to a PC, a squad of those guys will make the PC's sweat a bit... a squad of as-written level 3 banded would get laughed off the park by most runner teams.

[Tanka]

If by "most runner teams" you mean "your runner teams," then yes. Not every group makes characters for the sole purpose of winning. Some seem to make them to be fun and see how things turn out.

For one, a regular player that I game with plays a total pacifist. If there is supposed to be combat, being the wily Snake Shaman, we are convinced to avoid it, find out why we're told to kill this person, then decide if we want to tell this person or not.

Sure, the system is screwed up in that, when I'm untrained I can't do jack-all, but the moment I'm trained I'm insanely good. Every system has its flaws, and SR is not outside of that well-based generalization. However, there are things like house rules that take away the silliness of somebody jumping off a building and walking away from it.

[Lilt]

Prototype: There are no rules that stop you from aiming enough to take that TN down to 4, 3 or even 2. At TN 3 the sammie is on-average toasted, not to mention that if he does survive he will probably be on a +3 to TNs and any remaining gangers now get surprise rolls against the sammie. The sammie may have reaction 12 but with a +3 from wound penalties that 12 reaction runner now loses against the reaction 4 gangers. The gangers proceed to call a few more shots, always to avoiding armour, the ones that beat the sammie doing moderate wounds.

It's not long before the sammie is either dead or on a +5 or +6 to all actions from wound penalties making it incredibly difficult for him to do anything (at which point they bum-rush him, hold him down, and shoot him in the head at point-blank range).

IE: Versus 4 or so gangers the sammie would probably die if he was not prepared.

[moosegod]

And we haven't even started talking about corporate hit teams.

ie The whole reason my group has converted to non-lethal weapons.

[Prototype]

Yeah, and I've got plenty of house rules to crank the lethality of other things up as well... but when people speak about SR they talk about how dangerous it is and how lethal and all this... but as written, it ain't. That's what I'm trying to get folk to admit, as painful a process as it is!

As for characters, when I'm playing a rp game I'm generally not too concerned with 'winning' as you put it. SRners are tough, wily hombres as a general rule and when designing the character there's no point in hamstringing them to increase the 'fun' of the game!

As for pacifists... funny this, but we had a pacifist character in a campaign too! What, suddenly I'm Mr. Doom 2063??? All my players run about looking for BFG so they can kill more corpsec goons? Chill out!

[moosegod]

:eek:

Not lethal as written?

What the hell does your team fight? This is a world where people paralyzed from the neck down can fly the most incredably damaging vehicles known to man, and will too! EVERYBODY is dangerous in the Sprawl. Hell, they have to be, else they're ghoul food.

[Tanka]

Maybe that's why all your PCs seem to be overpowered, because you houserule to up the lethality, so it's dealt with by making more powerful PCs. If you want lethal, limit it. They can only get stuff at this rating, or this availability. Suddenly they can't get that high-class armor, or all the wiz 'ware. Even limit the books and release the toys slowly. Now they've gotta pick and choose what they take, and they can't just power a character right at chargen.

If you aren't so apt on winning, then why not make it fun with strange characters? Nothing you have posted has led me to believe that your characters are fun characters that aren't just there to aim at and shoot everything that moves.

[Zeel De Mort]

You can only aim a number of times equal to half your skill, i.e. the ganger with Pistols 4 can only get a maximum of -2 on his TN, if he spends two simple actions aiming. Plus he has, at best, probably a stealth skill of 4, so there's a good chance the CyberKing will spot him, more of a chance if the ganger brought three of his equally clumsy friends with him. (I'll use the word CyberKing in place of Street Sammie or Gunbunny or whatever since people seem to have their own ideas about them. CyberKing will be a generic term that just means any tough guy with lots of cyberware and various skills, many, but certainly not all related to combat).

I've never played D&D at higher levels, but even at low level (say 1-8 or so) it's pretty dangerous. A couple of unlucky criticals hits on you and some classes could get killed straight out, and even a tough guy fighter doesn't like it. Likewise at any level, but particularly at higher ones, if you fail just one save there's a good (or 100%) chance you'll be dead. That's pretty leathal if you ask me. At least in SR you roll several dice, so you're more likely to get an average result and not be at the mercy of a D20. Plus there's karma, pool dice and the like to save your ass.

Don't get me wrong though I like D&D just as much as SR, but I'd say D&D is more leathal.

Also: I don't see how doing well and gearing yourself to winning through in any given situation, or indeed having a powerful character in general, makes the game less fun.

[Tanka]

The setting is what's lethal. Corrupt city officials, starved slummers, corporate extraterritoriality... At least in D&D, the area you're in has laws and (supposedly) they are enforced equally everywhere. Not so with SR. LS won't even pretend to touch the baddest parts of town, but where the people are rich and pay well, they're there in two seconds flat if something goes down (or up, as the case may be).

[Lilt]

What we are saying is that Shadowrun is perfectly lethal at any level. Hell: an offensive IPE grenade would take almost any character out (unless they had platet factories or a trauma dampener, in which case use two).

[edit] Oops. missed that section of the aiming rules. Thx...[/edit]

[Zeel De Mort]

The SR setting can, certainly, be very leathal. But I guess what people are arguing over is whether the rules system is leathal or not.

Also, D&D can be pretty damn nasty too! If you're delving into the deepest darkest dragon lairs, or sneaking about in the underdark, who's going to come and save you when things turn ugly there? :) Ok you don't HAVE to go into any dungeons or fight any dragons, but well, most people do, hence the name I guess. Likewise you don't have to go into those corp facilities ever, but what are you going to do with your life if you don't?

[LoseAsDirected]

I'd like to point out that, in SR, there are no resurrection spells. You do not come back to life after you are dead.

That fact, alone, makes it far more lethal than D&D could ever be.

And my games are no more lethal than any other game I've witnessed.. In fact, if your players are never taxed, then it makes me wonder how good of a GM you really are.

Face it, Shadowrun is about criminals breaking the law.. Their lives should be in danger almost every second of the run.. Even during downtime, they should be paranoid.. And it's your job, as the GM, to ensure that they are.

I don't kill PCs because I think it's my job.. I put them in dangerous, realistic situations because it's my job.. And, quite often, no matter how good a PC is, they just aren't good enough.

In my opinion, no run against a megacorp should EVER go over 100% smoothly.. In fact, they should usually just barely manage to get out with their lives and anonymity intact.

[Prototype]

Lilt - whilst I don't have my books with me I'm fairly certain you can only aim up to half your skill. So, those skill 4 gang punks can't get the TN down as low as you'd suggest.

Also, my Sammie with Reaction 12 and 3d6 initiative up against your punks with 1d6+4 has to be seriously wounded on both condition monitors for you to win initiative and even then you have only a 1 in 1296 chance of beating him!

So overall, prepared or not the Sammie is kicking ass!

As for IPE grenades... hmmm, well, imagine that my Sammie gets tagged by a grenade - lands right on him. He gets an action before it goes off, so he decides not to try and throw it back TN6 with Q9??? Not hard, but still, he runs... with three actions in a turn he moves 9m, hmmm, okay... he walks away from it. So he is 3m away when it goes off. So the damage code is 12S, probably stages up to 12D+4... he has 7 points of impact armour for 5D+4, he rolls 15 Body, slams in 3 combat pool and takes 4 boxes of physical and a box of stun. If he's got more CP left he could easily get that down to the famous box/box config.

Zeel de Mort - with a name like that you should know about power!

Tanka - Nah, it's not that at all. The upped lethality applies to things like collisions, falling, etc. and that's in response to shadowrun characters... and also in response to looking at what would happen to average denizens of the SR world in those situations. Availability is limited, gear is hard to acquire... you don't need APDS and heavy military armour to be a tough guy! As for my characters not being 'fun' I haven't posted anything about them... so it'd be pretty hard for you to make any judgements.

Moosegod - There are things in SR that are lethal... nobody likes a Panther Cannon for instance (although, it isn't instant death...) but I'm saying that it isn't the 'oh my god he's got a Fichetti executive action I'm in a world of trouble' type of lethality that people would have you believe.

[L.D]

@Prototype.

Yeah he's an ork. I find you saying that he can't be a sammie very amusing. :)

He's the character I've had the most difficulty with, becuase he's a much better fighter than the rest of the group and if I really want to make it leathal for him, then the rest of the group is in some seriuos shit.

I was gonna go on about this, but you know, you play at a completly different powerlevel and it's no use comparing. Even though few om my players have experienced character death, all of 'em have had at least one close encounter.

You as the GM chose the powerlevel and thus how lethal the game is within the written rules.

Edit: And I also carefully monitor the use of the ambidexterity edge. Specially the two highest levels of it. The same with aptitude.

This post has been edited by L.D: Jan 17 2004, 07:17 PM

[LoseAsDirected]

[Prototype]

I don't really want to wade into the lethality debate cross system... but I feel I have to!!!

D&D is more inherently dangerous than SR if you take that to mean the chances of your character dying. Okay, so you can be brought back to life... but I wonder why such a mechanism is introduced to a roleplaying game... perhaps because it's too easy to die!

At starting levels or high levels, against equally matched foes or against unevenly matched foes... D&D can be easy to take an unlucky hit in and just die. Or to fail a save and just die. There are no re-rolls to save you. Your dead.

In SR there are no resurrection spells, why? Well, ignoring any 'in character' reasons... there's a lot less need for them. A critical hit from a longsword can take even a first level fighter straight to -10 hit points, do not pass go, do not collect $200.

[Prototype]

Sorry, L.D. but I just GM here... I didn't pick the power level... I just cracked open the BBB and said go get 'em tiger. I applied all the rules from there for chargen.

I didn't hand out delta grade like sweeties or anything, we're just using the rules in the books! And I monitor things like aptitudes and ambidexterity just as closely as the next guy!

Also, I prefer LoseAsDirecteds way of working things, in that - in SR - a Red Samurai is always a Red Samurai... whether the players are 10 karma runners or 300+ karma runners. I guess you favour alternative style of play as you talk about tailoring opponents to the tough guy character you published. But it doesn't make the world any more lethal.

[Austere Emancipa...]

And this is where the stuff about starting chars in D&D vs SR I talked about comes in. There's no point discussing a 1st level guy taking a crit from a long sword (which, by the way, is very unlikely to put a 1st level fighter to -10, unless you routinely send 1st level parties against orogs or something) unless you then consider a BeCKS 200 Karma or 60BP character getting tagged with 6 successes on an AR burst.

[Tanka]

1) There's an edit button. Use it. :D

2) What makes a game more lethal? Being killed easily, knowing that somebody will have a Resurrect spell handy. Or being killed, and being dead for good. I'd say the second option.

D&D is all the luck of one die roll. You can do many things: Fail miserably (botch), fail, succeed, succeed well, or succeed insanely well. All based on one die. The chances are rare, but they happen more often than with multiple dice.

On Pools: They make sense. Why? With Combat Pools, you can either put everything into making sure your opponent goes splat, making sure you don't go splat, or a mixture of the two. And then you can use martial arts manuvers as suggested in Cannon Companion.

On Karma: It makes sense that somebody with a KP of, say, 5, is going to be able to spend one point of KP to counter a botch. Why? Karma is virtual experience, knowing things that have happened to you already, and being able to adapt. So now, whenever you're firing that little Ex EX you picked up from the Red Samurai you somehow managed to geek, you've seen what it does when you misfire (botch), so now you know how to avoid that. Suddenly, you botch, and if you don't spend that KP, you've got an explosion in your hands. Bam! Lethal, done.

Now, one thing that my GMs have done is limit KP refresh to per run. Not per scene, but per run. That means that you can't just sit there and blow all your karma when you know that you're going to get it refreshed after this, you have to save it for a "Just In Case" so you don't blow your buddy's head off in a misfire.

[bwdemon]

SR rules are not lethal. The setting claims that it is lethal and dark, but the rules don't bear this out. Well, correction, the setting can be very lethal to a character with 2s in all attributes, no combat skills, and no equipment (certainly, this is no shadowrunner). House rule this, house rule that, house rule several other things, and suddenly SR uses almost entirely different rules and it still has problems thanks to the d6 probability issue. As Prototype said, SR, as written, has hordes of problems making combat lethal, let alone remotely realistic. Even the "called shot" examples require house rules and a GM willing to screw over a player through multiple rounds of aiming and an unseen shooter to provide a chance at causing damage, not even lethal damage.

Someone above mentioned how untrained people were really bad in SR compared to those with training. I highly disagree. A skill of 1-2 is almost a death sentence. You're almost always better off defaulting until you get to 3+ (exception: when your default attribute is bad too). When a character with amazing physical ability (20 Quickness character mentioned above) learns a little bit about pistols, he becomes totally inept with them. If he doesn't learn a thing about them, he's actually pretty dangerous. It's a fundamental flaw with the skill-only system, magnified by the use of small numbers for stats & skills.

SR isn't the worst system out there, but it has a ton of flaws. I house rule availability, weapon damage, automatic & burst fire, legality, price codes, street indexes, and other things just in order to make the game playable. That means rewriting a large portion of the game and that doesn't speak well of the system. I still don't like the problems inherent in the d6 successes-based, skill-only, large-increment system, but I'm stuck with them because I haven't rewritten the entire game yet. For the record, I consider WoD to be the worst offender of the game systems that I know and play, though I expect that worse systems are out there.

[Playing Games]

[CanvasBack]

[Diesel]

Prototype:

I feel your campaign's lethality is so low because you are not implementing effective tactics. A ganger firing behind cover, especially if he has a bro with him to spot/cover him can be deadly, even if he has "just" a heavy pistol. Now you make a gang semi-intent on defending their turf, say with a sporting rifle on a rooftop and it just goes downhill for the players from there.

And that is just gangers.

Corporate security, with their knowledge of a compound, effective training, above-par weapons, gear, armor, communications, and intelligence can kill an entire, twinked-out even, runner team without breaking a sweat.

Play smart and your players will be filling out a lot more character sheets. Play hard and they'll just be buying a lot more gear at chargen to force you to play harder.

Combat in Shadowrun is lethal, generally to both parties involved. If you're not dead, you're screwed and will be reeeeaaal soon. Good luck!

[Austere Emancipa...]

[L.D]

But that's the thing, Prototype. As the GM you set the powerlevel.

I know that within the rules for a starting character I can create what you did. It's not difficult. But saying that Raven (the guys stats I posted) isn't a sammie becuase he doesn't meet up to a munchie character just shows the difference in powerlevel.

By tailoring opponents I don't mean that I change the stats of Red Samurai. If you think that, then you're completely missing the picture. What I meant was that if I for instance wanted to give Raven something to do in a battle it made the situation very lethal for the decker (actaully most of the team except Raven). But on the other hand if I created an opponent based on the decker, then Raven would swat said opponent like a fly. And I always try to give all characters something to do in a fight, even the decker. Just to keep my pleyers from getting bored.

[LoseAsDirected]

[tete]

Being a long time runner and gm I would have to say that shadowrun 3rd is not as deadly as second but with D20 the lethality goes down with levels unless the common weapon damage goes up (as any good DM will do) I don't care if its starwars, call of cthulu, traveller, whatever d20 game you play. To use D&D if your sixth level and your DM wont let you have a +1 sword yet, your in for a world of hurt. Shadowrun doesn't have this level based problem (or advantage depending on your point of view) so in theory joe security guard can kill the uber combat monkey troll (unlikely though). Bringing back the dodge pool from 1st edition into 3rd has really lowered the chance of death from joe average. I think 3rd as a system doesn't have to be deadly, but it should be. The main thing is as a gm remember this is a "real" world, cops don't fight to the death but they do call for backup. The more you breath life into you npcs the more you realise when a gun is pulled someone will die (pc or npc). And your not gonna be a character whos squatting and has 500,000 nuyen in cyberware (you have to sleep sometime and when you do those bums will cut you open and sell you). How far you want your realism is ulitmatly up to your group. I have personally converted shadowrun to d20 and GURPS. The d20 version even with vitality and such is a more john woo feel. The GURPS is way more gritty and realistic (way too deadly for non troll newbies). Both however have lost part of the feeling that is the system. If you ever played deadlands you'll understand how a system makes a game feel very different. For me Im sticking to 3rd. Its not perfect but it just feels good.

PS I want to know how you get a quickness of 20 as well. And Elf gets a quickness of 7 + exceptional attibute would be 8... thats alot of karma to get to 20. like well over 600 i think. of course theres cyberware but most tops out at 8 which would give us 16 but still... not to mention most cyberware doesnt stack with other cyberware or magic.
One other thing to remeber when firing a gun most people aim, a TN of 4 is an unaimed shot. Personaly I usualy aim for my first action then fire a round. Its alot easier to hit with a TN of 3.

[LoseAsDirected]

Well, 20 is possible, but that's about as munchkin as I can imagine..

In the time, karma, and nuyen it would take for a PC to get a Quickness of 20, you could have just as easily gotten a Pistol skill of 10, and you would still be better off. So the entire argument is pointless.

[bwdemon]

[RedmondLarry]

[bwdemon]

A 20 Quickness is ridiculous, but it is possible under SR3. Elf + Exceptional Attribute (Quickness) + Enough Karma to get up to new racial max (12 Quickness) + Muscle Toner (+4 = 16) + Suprathyroid Gland (+1 = 17) + Move-By-Wire 3 (+3 = 20). Delta and culture as you wish. Alternately, you can get rid of MBW and the Suprathyroid Gland for a nice +4 Quickness spell lock.

I agree that it's ridiculous. But it is possible and the fact remains that this character becomes less competent by training in Pistols to anything less than 5. There should *never* be a situation in a game where a character, any character, becomes worse at doing a thing by training in it.