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[Ancient History]

I think it pretty obvious at this point that we're dealing with Promoted Fanboys - but are we Running The Asylum? Has terminal Contuinity Porn set in? Are Our Dragons really that Different?

Most importantly, do you agree?

[Demonseed Elite]

That Shadowrun page is a great read! I'm going to have to look through these more when I get out of work.

--Promoted Fanboy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Malachi]

Awesome.

You know, Shadowrun's with its IE's suffer from a serious case of Our Elves Are Better. I don't know about other people, but I've never really gotten off on the whole IE thing. Sometimes it just seems like a case of canon writers saying, "Your character will never be as good as my character. Ever."

[Kingboy]

The real question here is what is Ancient History trying to distract us all away from? Heavens knows it's almost impossible to just "browse" that wiki for anything less than several hours in a sitting...

[GreyBrother]

DONT CLICK ANY LINKS!
It destroys your life! It makes you sensitive to the flow of plot and canon! You think that's good but it isn't! Nothing is fun anymore! STOP!

[Malachi]

The real question here is what is Ancient History trying to distract us all away from? Heavens knows it's almost impossible to just "browse" that wiki for anything less than several hours in a sitting...

QFT.

Everything on that site is a link to another funny/interesting article.

[paws2sky]

I think it pretty obvious at this point that we're dealing with Promoted Fanboys - but are we Running The Asylum? Has terminal Contuinity Porn set in? Are Our Dragons really that Different?

Most importantly, do you agree?

Don't you have a Shadowrun in Space book to be writing? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

-paws

[kzt]

There is an occasional problem with the continuity porn. At some point you have to say "This was dumb, let's pretend we didn't go there".

Oh, and don't ever click on any of these links when you are on a deadline.

[Wesley Street]

Is TVtropes.org written by anyone else but anime/manga nerds? It's like when I go to Wikipedia to look up info on the Israeli Mob and all I find are article stubs... but oh I can find anything and everything about Green Lantern.

EDIT: Of course it is and they admitted it.

I challenge anyone to name an RPG franchise that's over fifteen years old that isn't being written by the players. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) I wouldn't say Shadowrun has fallen into the realm of Continuity Porn; unlike mainstream superhero comics I can pick up the core BBB and know all I really need to know to play the game. Anything published that's a shout-out to previous sourcebooks usually makes sense in-context without a detailed explanation. I didn't know what a "shedim" was at first but in-context I understood it was some sort of zombie. There are examples of Running the Asylum. But as they aren't to the detriment of the game or hit the realm of the ridiculous, I don't sweat them, and can usual forgive writers' pet characters. No one is innocent of this so I'm not going to point fingers.

Gamers turn conservative and scream about fanboyism when there's any change to the status quo but it's usually over something completely minute. I typically equate them to the loon who screamed at Warren Ellis during a convention for killing the completely fictional character of Fahrenheit in Stormwatch because he was "in love with her." If someone complains that Element XYZ is gone, I'm usually thinking it's because he wants to make sweet, sweet love to it.

[Stahlseele]

That page is allmost as bad as using wiki to find out things about people from marvel/dc universe <.<
one link leads to another, and after some hours you are still not back at square one.

[The Jake]

There is an occasional problem with the continuity porn. At some point you have to say "This was dumb, let's pretend we didn't go there".

Highlander II.

- J.

[Tanegar]

Highlander II.

- J.

What are you talking about? There was no Highlander II.

[Heath Robinson]

DONT CLICK ANY LINKS!
It destroys your life! It makes you sensitive to the flow of plot and canon! You think that's good but it isn't! Nothing is fun anymore! STOP!

I find it actually makes things more fun. Embrace the madness.

[Nath]

Has terminal Contuinity Porn set in?

Honestly, no. I know. What I did in Shadows of Asia was pure Continuity Porn. I did not stop even half a second to ask myself which corps would make a good materials for game masters. Hopefully, I quit freelancing right after that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

EDIT : Totally in love with that website by the way. I'm probably gonna spend days there, considering my trope for narrative structure theory.

[Ancient History]

I still think our dragons aren't /that/ different.

[Method]

There is an occasional problem with the continuity porn. At some point you have to say "This was dumb, let's pretend we didn't go there".

AhhhhhSURGE what?

[martindv]

SR could do for some Crisis on Infinite (Sixth) Worlds to get rid of the worlds where SURGE and Earthdawn happened.

Then after 20 years have passed Harlequin can return from the dead as part of another crisis event.

[GreyBrother]

I still think our dragons aren't /that/ different.

Nope. they are actually quite the same as in other fantasy games. Ancient, superintelligent, superpowered masterminds on crack who are all "Well look at those small pitful creatures around me."
I'd actually love to see a feral Dragon in SR with nothing more in mind but utter destruction and the power to pull it off.

[Method]

Aden is the closest thing to that in SR cannon. He's not mindless, but he sure likes to promote chaos and has been known to level a city or two in his day.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Lurking Troper. So far I've found a LOT that weren't on the Wiki previously:

--AI Is A Crapshoot (DEUS.)
--Blade Below The Arm
--Cyberspace
--Did Not Do The Research
--Heroic Sociopath (I.E., EVERYONE.)
--Hollywood Hacking
--Japan Takes Over The World
--More Dakka
--Psycho For Hire (WHY IS THIS MISSING?!)
--Street Samurai (AND THIS?!)
--Virtual Ghost (Ghosts in the Machine)

EDIT: Edited them in.

[KCKitsune]

I honestly have no fraggin clue why people hate SURGE so much.

Why all the hate people?

[Method]

Eh. Its been hashed out many times before. Suffice to say its my all-time least favorite timeline development and if I had to choose something to be retconned out of existence, SURGE would be it hands down. Just my opinion.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Right, but WHY?

[Method]

Because if I wanted to roleplay the Mos Eisley Cantina scene from Star Wars I wouldn't be playing SR. Its just doesn't fit my vision of the world. Ask others why they dislike IEs or why they prefer the term decker to hackers or why they like playing street sams over magicians. Its just an opinion. But like I said, you are welcome to read any of the existing threads that hash out peoples' reasons. Thats not what *this* thread is about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Oh, no, it's fine. It's just that "I don't like it." "Why?" "Because I don't like it." didn't seem that helpful.

[martindv]

Nope. they are actually quite the same as in other fantasy games. Ancient, superintelligent, superpowered masterminds on crack who are all "Well look at those small pitful creatures around me."
I'd actually love to see a feral Dragon in SR with nothing more in mind but utter destruction and the power to pull it off.

Wyverns, Sea Serpents, young Dragons all fit the role of feral and powerful.

But mindless dragons is its own trope, so you're screwed either way.

[Stahlseele]

Well . . we HAVE a Party-Guy kinda Dragon O.o
And one who goes about his job as every metahuman that has a job does too.
and carries children around on his back, if they ask him nice. o.O
Yeah, i loved those little things, just as i love Dragons of the Sixth World ^^

[Draco18s]

I think it pretty obvious at this point that we're dealing with Promoted Fanboys

Quite.

- but are we Running The Asylum?

Most likely.

Has terminal Contuinity Porn set in?

Yes.

Are Our Dragons really that Different?

Probably. One was president, they are telepathic, they aren't Color Coded For Your Convenience, and generally aren't the Big Bad.

As for SR's page, last time I read it, yes.

DONT CLICK ANY LINKS!
It destroys your life! It makes you sensitive to the flow of plot and canon! You think that's good but it isn't! Nothing is fun anymore! STOP!

They have a page for that.

[Muspellsheimr]

Rule Of Cool - Monofilament CHAINSAWS

Win.

[MYST1C]

What are you talking about? There was no Highlander II.

Next someone is gonna claim they made a TV series...

[GreyBrother]

My "Problem" with tropes is, that i lurked there many (quite productive) hours of my life and now i can't watch a movie/go to the theatre/etc and not facepalm at some moment and think "Just like trope XXX". It's horrible in an awesome kind, more often an "I always expect an ambush!" moment.
No, Tropes are fun, but you should be prepared that it takes most surprises. One reason i decided to like Bioshock was, that the big Twist DID surprise me (tough i spoilered it, nevertheless it was a twist where i sat there and thought "What a clever idea!").
I hope someday i can pull off something similar in Shadowrun or roleplaying in general.

Next someone is gonna claim they made a TV series...

Or a cartoon...

[Chibu]

The real question here is what is Ancient History trying to distract us all away from? Heavens knows it's almost impossible to just "browse" that wiki for anything less than several hours in a sitting...

Grr... I was about to go to bed last night, and then I decided "oh, i'll check DS one more time" I didn't get to bed until 3am somehow... Thanks Uncle Ancient...

At least it's friday and we're playing SR(second) tonight =D

[paws2sky]

I'd actually love to see a feral Dragon in SR with nothing more in mind but utter destruction and the power to pull it off.

Wasn't there a dragon in Europe that had been poisoned to the point of insanity by radiation (or similar toxic environment)?

-paws

[ravensmuse]

The recent 2007 game has reunited the fanbase — in declaring how much it sucks due to abandoning both.

For the truth. This is my favorite though:

Mexico Called, They Want Texas Back.

Just look at the wonder that is that title.

Also, you can totally tell that the SR entry was written by people only half-aware of the game.

[martindv]

They could just be players who aren't as stick-in-the-asylum-forever obsessed like we are.

[Matsci]

I've been working on it. Get Known, and start Editing!

[Wesley Street]

I still think our dragons aren't /that/ different.

The only difference between a SR dragon and a D&D dragon is that SR dragons drink vermouth and smell of Clive Christian's Imperial Majesty.

My "Problem" with tropes is, that i lurked there many (quite productive) hours of my life and now i can't watch a movie/go to the theatre/etc and not facepalm at some moment and think "Just like trope XXX". It's horrible in an awesome kind, more often an "I always expect an ambush!" moment.

The kinda-cool thing about that site is that it gives you an unintentional crash-course in marketing and branding; they're all about tropes. After I earned my degree in design I couldn't watch television without saying, "Oh, in this commercial they're plugging Trope X into Trope Y."

For the truth. This is my favorite though: Mexico Called, They Want Texas Back.

That was a big one for GDW's Twilight:2000/2300AD. And I agree they may only be half-aware of SR as there are some seriously obvious ones they missed: Blood Sport (Combat Biking, Urban Brawl, Court Ball), Artificial Limbs, Balkanize Me, Cool But Inefficient (Swords v. guns? Really?), Inside a Computer System, Middle Eastern Coalition (Alliance for Allah), New Neo City (Metropole, Neo-Tokyo, et. all), and Post Modern Magik. I can't find the trope for Super-Tuberculosis That Kills 1/4th of the Planet but the World War III trope comes close.

Shadowrun needs more Patrick Stewart Speeches.

[ravensmuse]

The difference between Shadowrun and DnD dragons is that Shadowrun realizes that they're fsking characters, not just one-stop-shopping for gold, trinkets, and info. Each of the Greats and the few mature dragons we've seen have had plans, goals, personalities, things they're looking to accomplish. Lofy set himself up as a business tycoon. Dunk was a Dragon of the People. Lung and Ryumyo are master and apprentice, eternally bickering. They're people, not loot factories, which is why so many of us (well, okay, me in particular) get attached to the scaly ones.

And of course you can do the same in DnD, but the emphasis is different there. Of course, that's down to different design goals and such.

Damn it, I'm supposed to be working!

[Wesley Street]

SR dragons also don't try to fit themselves into rooms that are too small for them (re: every Gary Gygax dungeon ever).

[Stahlseele]

Wasn't there a dragon in Europe that had been poisoned to the point of insanity by radiation (or similar toxic environment)?

-paws

Firewing?
Dead.
Shot down over the Sox, fell into the sox, mutasted into toxic dragon and got nuked from orbit to be sure.

[ravensmuse]

SR dragons also don't try to fit themselves into rooms that are too small for them (re: every Gary Gygax dungeon ever).

Look, that's all Tolkein's fault.

[paws2sky]

Firewing?
Dead.
Shot down over the Sox, fell into the sox, mutasted into toxic dragon and got nuked from orbit to be sure.

Could be. My memory fails me. (Yet again.)

-paws

[Heath Robinson]

Look, that's all Tolkein's fault.

That, and so many other things.

[UnhappyYak]

That website is what got me re-interested in Shadowrun, so don't knock it.

And it destroyed my life.

*sniff*

[Draco18s]

And of course you can do the same in DnD, but the emphasis is different there. Of course, that's down to different design goals and such.

Monster Manual....5? I think it was introduced the Xorvintaal Dragon template. Basically it turns DnD dragons into evil overlords plotting each other's subjugation. The GM determines the rules of Xorvintaal as he sees fit, assuming he needs to.

[Chrysalis]

I challenge anyone to name an RPG franchise that's over fifteen years old that isn't being written by the players. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Rifts, Traveller.

[ravensmuse]

Monster Manual....5? I think it was introduced the Xorvintaal Dragon template. Basically it turns DnD dragons into evil overlords plotting each other's subjugation. The GM determines the rules of Xorvintaal as he sees fit, assuming he needs to.

Okay, why do you need a template? Give the stupid dragon some character.

I dislike 3.* more and more.

[Draco18s]

Okay, why do you need a template? Give the stupid dragon some character.

I dislike 3.* more and more.

Because they didn't want to write out all the stats. It's "take a dragon and do this to it." (It should be noted that Xorvintaal dragon lose spellcasting, but what they get in return more than makes up for a few sorcerer levels, like "on death, don't" (actually, when they fall below 0 HP they are catatonic and have regeneration ~50 until at full health then wake up, unless what killed them specifically mutilates the body when its done)).

[KarmaInferno]

SR dragons also don't try to fit themselves into rooms that are too small for them (re: every Gary Gygax dungeon ever).

I still remember running a published dungeon back in the day that was pretty clearly randomly generated. Chock full of random dead ends, etc.

At one point I'd got to a section I hadn't fully read up on and was winging it a bit. Room description indicated there was an irate ancient red dragon in there.

Checked the map. It was a 10'x10' room.

After recomposing myself after the inevitable gigglefit, I told the players when they opened the door that they just saw an enormous angry looking eye.

They looked at it. It looked at them.

They quietly closed the door and moved on.

"I guess we know why it's irate."


-karma

[GreyBrother]

Shadowrun needs more Patrick Stewart Speeches.

Which one? The one in "Menage a Troi" in Front of the whole bridge? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Firewing?
Dead.
Shot down over the Sox, fell into the sox, mutasted into toxic dragon and got nuked from orbit to be sure.

Rumor has it that she is ... oh my god ... Still Alive (and believe me i am still alive...)

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Continuity issues? Nah.

angry fanboys not liking that fact that since surge everyone wants to play a changeling for their pure min-maxing potential? Yeah.

How come I see more shadowrun art of changelings, the surged and furries than should exist? No, I don't think your transgendered foxgirl is cool... QFT!

So yeah, that's the problem with surge. Should we be mad at surge though? Nope. Should we be mad at those who overplay surged characters? You betcha!

Also, come on, with a new plot arc and epic story that happens every game year, there are going to be some off years... Not everything can be Bug City or Renraku Arcology Shutdown...

[tsuyoshikentsu]

So yeah, that's the problem with surge. Should we be mad at surge though? Nope. Should we be mad at those who overplay surged characters? You betcha!

Learn to differentiate between people who like playing SURGEd characters and mindless furries.

[TKDNinjaInBlack]

Learn to differentiate between people who like playing SURGEd characters and mindless furries.

Generally one and the same! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[kzt]

No, the furries don't do it because it gives them cool abilities cheaply, they do it because they think it is inherently cool.

[WyldKnight]

I like the SURGEd just because it allows you to make such weird characters. When I looked at it I didn't think "man I am going to have such fun min maxing the crap out of this" I thought "DUDE! I am going to make a 4 armed dwarf climbing adept with an addiction to spiderman BTLs and call him Gimli the Midget Spider!"

But then again thats just me.

[GreyBrother]

Heh... i had quite some contact with furries but i think there should be a difference between playing something mindless (wether for mindless min/maxing or mindless living out whatever you ride on) and other categorizations.

[Wesley Street]

Rifts, Traveller.

Granted... though both have bounced back and forth from the original creators.

[ravensmuse]

Re: Furries. C'mon guys.

I like SURGE because it plays up the weird facets of the Shadowrun universe. Magic was getting too pat and too recognizable, and SURGE (and basically all of YOtC) blew that all to the void. SURGE allows you to play people whose goblinization didn't kick in all the way or they're a race that maybe hasn't, or even wont pop up in the Sixth World yet. Maybe magic twisted some part of their genetic make-up and they picked up some beneficial or superficial (or even dangerous) abilities. Maybe their ancestors did the horizontal nasty with a magic beastie back in the day and they got some of their traits because of it.

Either way, it's a way to play up how weird the Sixth World can be. Anything in SR can be twisted for min/max potential (and it drives me up the wall to see people do that around here) but just because Joe Random Otaku can make an anime catgirl doesn't mean that potential lays within the option given.

[KCKitsune]

Anyone who plays a SURGE character should make sure that they are not min maxing. My SURGE character spent 5 of his surge points on a metahuman characteristic (elven longevity)... 5 pts spent worthlessly, but fits the character quite well.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Anyone who plays a SURGE character should make sure that they are not min maxing. My SURGE character spent 5 of his surge points on a metahuman characteristic (elven longevity)... 5 pts spent worthlessly, but fits the character quite well.

Anyone who plays should avoid intentionally gimping their character. Optimizing, on the other hand, is the most in-character thing to do.

[KCKitsune]

Anyone who plays should avoid intentionally gimping their character. Optimizing, on the other hand, is the most in-character thing to do.

I asked people here what elven longevity be worth and they said 5 BP. What would you say?

[The Jake]

I only like SURGEd for further min-max cheese. I'd personally be happier without the furbies in my games.

- J.

[Glyph]

I asked people here what elven longevity be worth and they said 5 BP. What would you say?

I would say nothing. Unless your game is very, very long-running, or skips forward several years every few months, it is not something that gives any kind of tangible in-game benefit.

I like the Runner's Companion version of SURGE. The previous version (I don't have YOTC, so I could have heard, or remembered, wrongly) had, I believe, random tables, which is lame in a point-build system. Similarly, I would not ever play a changeling if the GM insisted on picking out the negative traits for me. The whole point of build points is to custom-craft your character exactly how you (the player) want it! Especially for something like SURGE, where the player is likely to have a very specific concept in mind.

As for furries, you had them as of Augmentation (spawning a rather disturbing thread, I recall). SURGE only introduced the option to have a "natural" cat girl.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I asked people here what elven longevity be worth and they said 5 BP. What would you say?

Nothing, though as it happens I was responding more to the first part of your post.

[KCKitsune]

As for furries, you had them as of Augmentation (spawning a rather disturbing thread, I recall). SURGE only introduced the option to have a "natural" cat girl.

Ah, I remember that thread. I created my cyberkitty sex slaves... good for sex (of the kinky kind) and good for killing your enemies when they piss you off.

[Malachi]

I like the Runner's Companion version of SURGE. The previous version (I don't have YOTC, so I could have heard, or remembered, wrongly) had, I believe, random tables, which is lame in a point-build system.

The rules for SURGE in YotC gives the option of randomizing the event, but it was by no means mandatory that it be random. However, the interesting thing that I wish they would have retained in the RC version of SURGE was the fact that you had to pick at least an equal point value of Negative SURGE qualities as positive SURGE qualities.

[KCKitsune]

The rules for SURGE in YotC gives the option of randomizing the event, but it was by no means mandatory that it be random. However, the interesting thing that I wish they would have retained in the RC version of SURGE was the fact that you had to pick at least an equal point value of Negative SURGE qualities as positive SURGE qualities.

Except you pay the BP for the level of SURGE. This comes out of your positive qualities pool.

[Ancient History]

I didn't invent manatech, but gorramit I did work hard on it.

[Zaranthan]

The rules for SURGE in YotC gives the option of randomizing the event, but it was by no means mandatory that it be random. However, the interesting thing that I wish they would have retained in the RC version of SURGE was the fact that you had to pick at least an equal point value of Negative SURGE qualities as positive SURGE qualities.

Yes, they did. The actual Changeling qualities (which you need to take before taking the SURGE qualities) require you to take a matching amount of negative SURGE qualities for no BP.

[GreyBrother]

Nothing with matching reading here, only a set amount is mentioned but the Surge Qualities don't count against the regular Quality Limit.

[Fuchs]

You know, Shadowrun's with its IE's suffer from a serious case of Our Elves Are Better. I don't know about other people, but I've never really gotten off on the whole IE thing. Sometimes it just seems like a case of canon writers saying, "Your character will never be as good as my character. Ever."

Pretty much spot on.

[Fuchs]

My issue with surge is that, well, considering the options SR's Tech offers, the whole persecution just makes no sense to me, and even less sense makes the "I am stuck as a freak, woe me, since for some strange reason I cannot think of simply having this strange tail cut off and my humanity restored by a short trip to the next surgeon!" background.

Would be like if today some magic made people get strange colored hair, and we should flip out about those "mutants" and hate and fear them - as if there were not tons of people who dye their hair already, and as if anyone who mutated could not dye their new hair back to black or whatever it was.

[Heath Robinson]

It's not the people with strange coloured hair. It's the ones who suddenly gained Ork tusks or Troll horns. The ones who have a second heart that means that it's absolutely necessary to exclude them from sports now that they've got an unfair competitive advantage. The ones who now look like kids, but have the mind and drives of an adult. We're looking at people who remind people of things they'd rather not think about, who have legitimate reasons for exclusion that are also profoundly unfair, or just disturb people.

There are fewer shadowrunners than there are Doctors. They're less than 0.1% of the population. The vast majority of people affected by SURGE are wageslaves, whose total blandness is a carefully calculated social move to avoid alienating people who might advance their career. Suddenly turning into a kid, or something vaguely Orklike is too weird, and you're going to see a glass ceiling if you're suddenly weird. Who knows whether Changelings are like us - they certainly don't look like us. We can't exactly promote someone we don't know if we can trust. I always thought that George was a little bit odd.

That's the thing. The whole process is deceivingly rational. You approach your data looking to confirm your conclusions, so after you've heard that James from Accounting grew horns, your memory dredges up every little awkward moment you've seen him have. Suddenly you're far more suspicious that he's not like the rest of "the gang" and it's best if he doesn't get to managerial positions. After all, he doesn't represent the rest of the team at all - how can you manage the interests of people you share nothing with?

Edit: Oops, missed a "not" in there.

[GreyBrother]

It's not much about the changes per se but about the implications. Remember that nobody knew what was going on and many played the "Mutation" or "Plague" Card. Yes, you may get your nice little tail cut off, but what if it regrows or worse, gets bigger? And what if your whole family starts getting it because you transferred your "sickness" to them?
Adding the already in place Comet Hysteria, you can bet that some of the comet cults used SURGE as a Sign of the End Times or as Prophets of a new Time. Hilarity ensues.
And it would also make sense that some "Transhumanists" of the extreme type got beaten up too by some angry mob not knowing that this bastard just loved his new iTail G5.

Edith told me that Heath also made a good point.

[Zaranthan]

Nothing with matching reading here, only a set amount is mentioned but the Surge Qualities don't count against the regular Quality Limit.

Read the qualities themselves:

Class I SURGE (5 BP): Class I often represents minor and
cosmetic changes like altered hair, skin or eye colorations, dermal
and hair texture, or metahuman traits. The character must take
10 BP worth of Positive Metagenetic qualities and 5 BP worth of
Negative Metagenetic qualities.

[Fuchs]

The process is not deceivingly rational. Not if you consider the fact that almost all of the mutations were already being done (and undone) by surgery by people who liked looking that way. It really is like if a sickness today started to turn people's hair blue, green, or orange.

And even if we buy the "people fear the mutants" - which I kind of can understand, though not years after it happened and pretty much everyone could get the "metagene activation, like UGE" explanation - why on earth does anyone, much less a shadowrunner, keep looking like a freak, instead of getting rid of it? Getting rid of the most common mutations is dirt cheap, less than a tricked out weapon in many cases. It's fine for those who go the "different and proud of it" route, but I have toruble wrapping my head aroiund the scenario of a surgling runner lamenting their fate, while having enough money to get fixed twice over from just one run.

That's my main beef with Surge: As a game option for player characters (aka: "this is important for you") it does not fit into the world of cyber- and bioware other than a "you look like this, and you like it" option. The "I hate looking like this, but cannot change it" simply makes no sense.

[GreyBrother]

Read the qualities themselves:

I did. 10 BP doesn't equal 5 BP, even in my deviate mathematical conception.

[Matsci]

I did. 10 BP doesn't equal 5 BP, even in my deviate mathematical conception.

10 BP of Positve Qualites, -5 BP of Negitive Qualities, -5 BP for Surge I = Zero BP

[Glyph]

I agree with Fuchs that the "woe is me" approach doesn't work for the more common SURGE traits. But PCs will tend to either get "pretty" changelings, or get ones whose freakish traits dovetail with their job (a prehensile tail for a cat burglar, etc.). The NPCs who mutate into something with a squid's head and bulging insect eyes, and who don't pull in thousands of Nuyen as runners, are the ones who will really suffer.

On a related tangent, the panic over technomancers made even less sense. "Oh no! These deviant freaks of nature can do exactly the same thing that a hacker with an implanted commlink can do! Burn the witches!"

[Malachi]

On a related tangent, the panic over technomancers made even less sense. "Oh no! These deviant freaks of nature can do exactly the same thing that a hacker with an implanted commlink can do! Burn the witches!"

Well, the technomancer "scare" plotline suffered from a serious case of metagaming. First, it was really too bad that TM's were included in the base book because by the time CGL got around to doing the Emergence plotline, TM's were "old news." Plus, players were already well familiar with their abilities and limitations, and they were perceived as "underpowered" further adding to the "TM's aren't scary" aspect. TM's weren't public knowledge until after the events of Emergence, and for quite some time after that, the full extent of their abilities were subject to wild conjecture. I think the whole plotline would have gone better if the game mechanics for TM's would have been kept out of the core book and released as part of Emergence.

[GreyBrother]

Wasn't Emergence still made up by Fanpro??

10 BP of Positve Qualites, -5 BP of Negitive Qualities, -5 BP for Surge I = Zero BP

Ah, i see what you did there.

[MYST1C]

Wasn't Emergence still made up by Fanpro??

Emergence was originally planned as the very first SR4 release directly after the BBB. Unfortunately, that timing didn't manifest...
TMs were included in the core rules so that you don't need an additional book to play them. Plus, the core book was supposed to be still in use when the Emergence plotline was over and TMs widely known.

[Chrysalis]

I think it pretty obvious at this point that we're dealing with Promoted Fanboys - but are we Running The Asylum? Has terminal Contuinity Porn set in? Are Our Dragons really that Different?

Most importantly, do you agree?

I think the big question is: AH, you wrote the entry on Shadowrun on tvtropes, didn't you?

-Chrysalis

[ravensmuse]

Oo, good point. Let's see how he answers (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Ancient History]

No, but thanks for playing.

[ravensmuse]

Spoilsport. Next you'll tell me dragons aren't real.

[Ancient History]

Oh, they're real. Granted, they just have a nasty venom and are fair cunnin' instead of fire-breathing and intelligent, but a komodo is nothing to sneeze at. Literally, they attack anything that moves.

[Draco18s]

Oh, they're real. Granted, they just have a nasty venom and are fair cunnin' instead of fire-breathing and intelligent, but a komodo is nothing to sneeze at. Literally, they attack anything that moves.

Only if it pokes them enough while jabbering in an Australian accent. That'll warrant a tail-whipping.

[Critias]

First, it was really too bad that TM's were included in the base book because by the time CGL got around to doing the Emergence plotline, TM's were "old news."

This was the biggest thing to me. Folks had already had the rules -- Hell, even an archetype character in the main book! -- for a year or so before the "fluff" with Technomancers caught up to them. How do you handle that, smoothly and well, in a game? You've been playing with a character for a year and then suddenly their book comes out and you realize they're supposed to be the X-Men or something, hated and feared and blah blah blah, and that it was supposed to be the case all along.

That's just sloppiness, to me.

[Wesley Street]

Anyone who plays should avoid intentionally gimping their character. Optimizing, on the other hand, is the most in-character thing to do.

Boring.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Boring.

Whereas gimping your character is actively working against the party.

[Zaranthan]

Whereas gimping your character is actively working against the party.

This. Oh, Em, Gee, THIS. There's nothing wrong with playing a bunch of wannabes and fish-out-of-water, so long as the whole group is on board. If your group consists of a gang-banger, a wageslave, a chiphead, and a street shaman; cool! Sounds like a blast. If you've got a pornomancer, a troll with 40 soak dice, a concrete-melting mage, ...and a guy with 300 BP of languages; you're going to have problems.

[Stahlseele]

Boring.

If Boring keeps me alive, boring is what i will do.
See Work.

[Wesley Street]

Whereas gimping your character is actively working against the party.

Like Z said, if the party's cool with it, who cares? There are no winners or losers here. Only those who know how to have fun and those who need to find a new hobby.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

That's like saying you can have a party full of catgirls who go out into the Aztech lollipop-growing fields for a tea party with Funny Mister Dunkelzahn. You can do anything with party approval, but I'm assuming a party that wants to, you know, get something done -- i.e., one that isn't okay with you intentionally making the group weaker.

[Critias]

The whole "optimized versus gimped" argument is just yet another thing that comes down to OOC party dynamics and table's preference.

If your GM's running a cutthroat game where you need to be sharp as a monoblade to survive, then you pimp your character eight ways to Tuesday, scour every nook and cranny of the rules to find what works best, and you work at staying alive by the skin of your teeth because that's the level of competitive (for lack of a better term) play that's expected.

On the other hand, if your GM is kosher will scaling threats to the party, encouraging well rounded characters instead of uber specialists, likes to see karma expenditures go towards fleshing out a character instead of just making him better and better and better at what he's "supposed" to be good at, yadda yadda yadda...well, that game's just fine, too.

It's like comparing Dirk Montgomery and his noir-flavored, no-to-low cyber (and no magic), everyman detective character to...I dunno, Argent, the super-commando-move-by-wire, dual-smartlinks, yadda yadda yadda guy. Different strokes (and power levels) for different folks.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Not really.

The thing about optimization versus deliberate gimping is that optimization makes the party stronger, while gimping makes it weaker. Having a character that's deliberately weak in a team-based game doesn't work unless everyone's on board, because the rest of the party is going to have to pick up the slack for the gimped one. Which, to most people, isn't fun.

There's nothing wrong with everyone playing a lower power-level character, or even people playing with different levels of optimization. But when a person says, "Hey, regardless of whether the group's okay with it or not, I'm going to intentionally make a weak character," that's flipping a giant bird to everyone else.

[Glyph]

Someone gimping their character doesn't always affect the rest of the party. But what irritates me is when someone makes such an individual decision, then, when the game actually starts, they get upset that the well-crafted characters do better than them. Then they whine to the GM about the powerful character, because they feel "useless." Hey genius, you made your character that way! I don't mind people taking disadvantages for their characters, for role-playing reasons, but they should accept the in-game consequences. If I ever, for instance, decide to make a "natural" adept who disdains bioware, then I will be prepared for that adept to be overshadowed in certain ways by adepts who have succumbed to the lure of 'ware.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

It doesn't always directly affect the party, but it always affects it. An example: in a game I'm playing in, a character has taken an Allergy (mild, thank G-d) to a substance he's also Addicted to. Any time he comes up a hit or two short of doing something we need him to be doing, well, we're all gonna be frustrated about him not having those two extra dice he should.

[Fuchs]

If the game is mainly about the crazy hijinks the runners get into, and have to get out of again, due to their bad luck, flaws, and general stupidity, then making an optimized, smart, and professional runner only works if the character is accepted and expected to be the "straight man" to the loonies of the team. Otherwise frustration happens when the player flips out about the gunbunny blowing away the only witness they needed for being a threat (despite being in a coma already).

And of course, outside your usual, long running face to face group, people often have wildly different ideas about what's powerful and what's weak. One group's "gimped idiot" is another's "munchkinized monster".