Background Based Character Creation Method, That is, borrowing Traveller's chargen. Options

[Draco18s]

Having only recently been introduced to Traveller I rolled up a character last night, it was actually a lot of fun, and I thought to myself, "How feasible could this be to adapt to ShadowRun?"

I'm contemplating the method in two fashions, one which actually builds the character, like Traveller, and the other which guides a character's background without getting in the way of a BP or Karma build, other than possibly suggesting diversification in skills or a history behind a particular implant.

For example, if the character had spent some time as part of a illegal gambling ring he could have picked up Slight of Hand just from being around card sharks. Sure, he might be a gun-bunney with a brain like a bear trap (rusty and illegal in 47 states), but it guides the character to a slightly more organic state, having some related, but off-build skill at a rank or two.

It's this second method I want to try and develop first, although the first will be easier to create, one where live events happen but don't grant any changes to the character sheet--at least not any farther than a few BP ("Acquire a small gambling debt and 1 subterfuge skill for getting caught cheating at poker and learning from your mistake" for example).

I also will want to use the Traveller method for the dice rolls themselves (primarily 2d6 with 11 outcomes, or 1d6 and 6 outcomes) rather than the ShadowRun method, as it generally has fewer likely outcomes and far more exceedingly unlikely ones. Ex. a dice pool of 9 has 10 possible outcomes, but rolling 9 successes is lower than 0.01%.

Anyway, to get this started we need a collection of career choices (not classes! I rolled up a Scientist/Naval Gunner last night in the interest of creating a gunslinger/tinkerer, sure ended up with Mechanics, Engineering (Jump Drives,Electronics), Vac-Suit, and Computers, but that's what life as a gunnery officer does: fires the big guns and repairs them!)

Each career path should have 3 or so specializations (Scholar was broken down into Field Researcher, Scientist, and Physician). Each path has 6 skills, and each specialization has 6 skills (they can overlap, the scientist has Any Science twice and the base skills also include Any Science). Each path also needs an event table (2d6 for 11 outcomes), a survival and promotion table, and a rank benefits table (not all entries need to be filled), a Mishaps table (mishaps generally eject you from a career and can lead to injury; 1d6 6 outcomes).

I'll try and come up with an example here.
It should be noted that I'm using Traveller's rules for advancement, which is a 2d6 roll plus mods (from indicated stat) against the listed target number.
Ex. Str 8+ means roll 2d6 add bonus* (or penalty) from strength and you need an 8 or higher.

[ Spoiler ]

Path: Gang Member

Specializations: Grunt, Shark, Thief

Grunt: The big guy, with the intimidating weapons. You muscle people around for a living.
Shark: A charismatic enticing "deal with the devil" guy. You socialize and talk people out of their money and possessions.
Thief: You steal things, ranging from petty to breaking and entering. Small, sneaky, and silent.

Skills and Training:

CODE

Roll     Career Skill               Grunt                         Shark              Thief
1         Any Weapon skill          Any Weapon skill             Etiquette           Infiltration
2         Dodge                     Dodge                        Negotiation        Escape Artist
3         Intimidate                Intimidate                   Leadership          Locksmith
4         Con                       Negotiation                  Con                 Disguise  
5         Perception               Intimidate                    Palming             Palming
6         Street Knowledge         Street Knowledge              Forgery            Shadowing

Survival and Advancement

CODE

          Survival       Advancement
Grunt       Str 7+        Str 9+
Shark       Cha 8+        Cha 8+
Thief       Agl 8+        Int 7+

Rank And Benefits

CODE

Rank     Grunt                   Shark              Thief
0
1         Intimidate             Con                Palming
2
3         Weapon Skill           Negotiation        Locksmith
4
5         Street Knowledge       Palming            Infiltration
6

I'll admit to having borrowed much of the following from the Traveller's Rogue career.

Events:

CODE

2   Roll for a mishap, but are not ejected from this career
3   You are arrested.  If you defend yourself, roll Negotiation 8+, if you succeed, charges are dropped, if you fail lose 2 benefit rolls.  If you hire a lawyer, lose 1 benefit roll, and gain the lawyer as a contact.
4   You are involved in the planning of an impressive heist.  Gain one: Computers 1, Infiltration 1, Data Search 1, Mechanic (any) 1.
5   One of your crimes pays off, gain +1 to one Benefits roll.
6   You have the opportunity to backstab a fellow ganger.  If you do, gain +4 to your next advancement check.  If you chose not to, gain them as a loyal contact.
7   Life Event (roll on the life events table)**
8   You spend months in the criminal underworld.  Gain one: Street Knowledge 1, Infiltration 1, Any Weapon Skill, Disguise 1.
9   You become involved in a fued with a rival gang.  Roll Infiltration or Combat (any) 8+.  If you succeed, gain 1 benefit roll.  If you fail, roll for an injury.
10  You're involved in a gambling ring.  Wager any number of benefit rolls and roll Edge 8+.  If you fail you lose those benefits, if you succeed gain half again as many (round up).
11  A crime lord considers you his protege.  Either gain Leadership 1, or +4 to your next advancement roll.
12  You commit a legendary crime, automatically advance.

Mishaps:

CODE

1  Severely injured (roll on the injury table twice and take the lower result)
2  Arrested, lose 1 benefit roll.
3  You're betrayed, gain an enemy.
4  A job goes wrong.  Gain of of: Con 1, Pilot Groundcraft 1, or Gunnery 1.
5  A detective or rival criminal forces you to flee, gain an enemy.
6  Injured (roll on the injury table**)

Benefits

CODE

   Cash       Other stuff
1  None       Weapon
2  None       Armor
3  5000       1 rank of any skill
4  10000      Weapon
5  20000      Armor
6  30000      1 rank of any skill
7  50000      1 choice piece of cyberware or bioware

For those unfamiliar with Traveler, a quick rundown on how to use the tables, plus a note on skills.

[ Spoiler ]

Leaving out Traveller-specific steps

CODE

3. a. Choose a career. You cannot choose a career you have
already left.
  b. Roll to qualify for that career.
  c. If you qualify for that career, go to Step 4.
  d. If you do not qualify for that career, then you can go to the Draft or enter the Drifter career. The Draft can put you back into a career you have been forced to leave, at your old rank. You can only apply for the Draft once.
4. If this is your first time on this career, get your basic training (all skills under "Career Skills" at 1 rank).
5. Choose a specialization for this career.
6. a. Choose one of the Skills and Training tables for this career and roll on it (either the "career skills" or the specialization skills list).
  b. Roll for survival on this career.
  c. If you succeed, go to Step 7.
  d. If you did not succeed, then events have forced you from this career. Roll on the Mishap table, then go to Step 9.
7. Roll for Events.
8. a. Roll for Advancement
  b. If you succeed, choose one of the skills and training tables for this career and roll on it. Increase your Rank and take any bonus skills from the Ranks table for this career.
  c. If you roll less than the number of terms spent in this career, you must leave this career.
9. Increase your age by 4 years.*** If your character is 34 or older, roll for Aging.**
10. If you are leaving the career, roll for Benefits.
11. If you have left your current career, then go to Step 3 to choose a new career, or to Step 12 if you wish to finish your character. Otherwise, go to Step 5.
12. Finalize any Connections with other characters.

It should be noted for skills that if it's just a skill name, you increase your rank by 1. If it's a skill and a number then you increase your skill to that number, if you already have it at that or higher, then no benefit. Traveller also starts at "No Rank" (defaulting is a -3) and advances to rank 0 (no defaulting, but no bonus) and caps out at rank 4, so picking up a [Skill] 1 that you don't have is actually pretty nice.

As always, thoughts, comments, help, and such appreciated.



*Traveller uses 2d6 for stats, meaning average is 7. Every 2 points above is +1, every 2 points below is a -1
Shadowrun being a 1-6(9) system this needs to be changed, I'm thinking:

CODE

1     -2
2     -1
3-4   0
5-6   +1
7-8   +2
9+    +3

As most PCs will have a 5 or better in their primary stat, and 3-4 is average.

**Not included here...yet

***Traveller starts you at 18 and every term of service is 4 years. I'm more inclined to start SR characters at 16 and increase their age by 2 years each time (all characters must serve 1 term in some profession, though there is no maximum, though aging does take its toll and will kill you at some point).

[Synner667]

Interesting idea.

The Traveller generation system provides well rounded characters, and is almost impossible to create the outrageous/over-specialised/unreasonable videogame characters that you get with player-driven points based systems.

I prefer something along the lines of the lifepath from CP2020, though I think rolling for every year is a little too time consuming.


I do think you have an interesting idea, with some great potential, and I'd really like to see what this leads to.
But, I think you should take step back and try for the essence of what you're trying for - rather than doing a brute-force conversion.

For instance, determine the main "classes" [warrior, techie, mage, law enforcement, face, gangboy - for instance] in SR, determine results based on number hits from dice rolls [rather than a table-based result], etc.

[Synner667]

You might also want to have a look at the GURPS Traveller, since that's a point based system and they should already have done the d6/table-based system to point-based system conversion in some way.

[Draco18s]

For instance, determine the main "classes" [warrior, techie, mage, law enforcement, face, gangboy - for instance] in SR, determine results based on number hits from dice rolls [rather than a table-based result], etc.

I'm not sure about that. The problem is the low number of common results.

Personally the Events Table really shouldn't change in format, it covers a wide variety of things, the most common result (a 7) referrs to common events in life, regardless of "class" (getting into a romantic relationship was the one I rolled when fiddling around with Traveller--we're using the Mongoose 2008 printing, btw).

I could see the standard SR success system for the other things though: survival, advancement, other tests (such as the gambling one, or court one above).

I'll see if I can find the GURPS book, though I have never previously used GURPS. The book I do have does offer a "point based" build system (number of points based on number of terms severed), though based on my quick glance you buy (instead of rolling) your six stats and skills and then spend points to get ranks and benefit rolls, but cuts out the Events table entirely, which is one thing I want to keep around.

CP2020 is a game I've never heard of before.

[Synner667]

I'm not sure about that. The problem is the low number of common results.

Personally the Events Table really shouldn't change in format, it covers a wide variety of things, the most common result (a 7) referrs to common events in life, regardless of "class" (getting into a romantic relationship was the one I rolled when fiddling around with Traveller--we're using the Mongoose 2008 printing, btw).

I could see the standard SR success system for the other things though: survival, advancement, other tests (such as the gambling one, or court one above).

I'll see if I can find the GURPS book, though I have never previously used GURPS. The book I do have does offer a "point based" build system (number of points based on number of terms severed), though based on my quick glance you buy (instead of rolling) your six stats and skills and then spend points to get ranks and benefit rolls, but cuts out the Events table entirely, which is one thing I want to keep around.

CP2020 is a game I've never heard of before.

Hmmm, sounds like you have all you need for a good start.

The events [good and bad] are what makes a character "interesting", so it's good that you want to leave that in [it's that randomness and chance to have negative things happen to the character that annoys the points-based crowd]...
...Not sure how I'd do it, myself - though I do think you could use 6 dice, using the number of hits to replicate the d6-ness of Traveller.

CP2020 = Cyberpunk v2.0.2.0 = the other main cyberpunk system that people tend to know about.
Character generation involves rolling once/year and using the results to gain enemies, extra skills, enemies, contacts, gear, lifestyle, etc.

[Chrysalis]

The Central Casting series of books by Task Force Games are worth looking into, or look at Warhammer FRP for quidelines. Although the traveller background works, but then you have tables which need to be changed.

[Draco18s]

"FRP"?

The events [good and bad] are what makes a character "interesting", so it's good that you want to leave that in [it's that randomness and chance to have negative things happen to the character that annoys the points-based crowd]...

True, but I'm doing this for myself. Once I have something down that works like Traveller I can pare down and find the things that make no stat-wise difference (or minor, less than 20 BP in either direction net) and then it could be used with point-based and offer a little more flavor. The no-BP method wouldn't be something I'd stick to religiously ("oh, that doesn't quite fit with what I had in mind, but that does," etc)

[Draco18s]

Not sure how I'd do it, myself - though I do think you could use 6 dice, using the number of hits to replicate the d6-ness of Traveller.

Let me try this on for size:

For char-gen based tests, roll 6+Attribute dice, looking for N successes.
Trivial tasks have a threshhold of 1
Easy tasks have a threshhold of 2
Moderate tasks have a threshhold of 3
Hard tasks have a threshhold of 4
Impossible tasks have a threshhold of 5+

So I'm looking at aquiring a job at a Moderate task (someone with a 4 attribute has a 70% chance of landing the job--Traveler has an average of a 6+ to get a job--there are some 4+ and Nobility is a 10+ and you should have a +1 from stat, meaning that you need a 5 on 2d6, which is 83%).

We're a little low on our Finding Job chances. I could drop Jobs down to a 2+ or I could raise the base dice pool to 9 (your average Joe has 12 dice, needs 3 successes--81.8% chance). I'd prefer the latter, having only +/- 1 around the average job qualifications isn't wide enough.

So to fix the above, with realtivistic statistics

For char-gen based tests, roll 9+Attribute dice, looking for N or more successes.
Trivial tasks have a threshhold of 1 (average Joe: 99%) [Traveller equiv of 3+ (with average Joe +0 bonus)]
Easy tasks have a threshhold of 2 (average Joe: 94%) [Traveller equiv of 4+]
Moderate tasks have a threshhold of 3 (average Joe: 81%) [Traveller equiv of 5+]
Difficult tasks have a threshhold of 4 (average Joe: 60%) [Traveller equiv of 7+]
Hard tasks have a threshhold of 5 (average Joe: 36%) [Traveller equiv of 8.5+]
Impossible tasks have a threshhold of 6+ (average Joe: 17%) [Traveller equiv of 10+]

Not too shabby.

Class list so far:
Tech Junkie (hackers, mechanics, doctors)
Mage (summoners, conjurers, shamans)
Law Enforcement (lone star, PI)
Gang Member (grunt, shark, thief)
Entertainer (trid personality, escort)
Enlisted Man* (army)
Corporate Wage Slave* (accountant)
Entrepreneur* (small business owner)
Woodsman*,** (Back to nature liver,Wild Shapeshifter)
Street Urchin* (Traveller's Drifter)

*Needs more specializations

**I think I need a better name.

Edit:
Event tables will still be 2d6:sum, as you need a bell curve distribution of events and Nd6:success can't do that.

[Draco18s]

Notes:

+2 bonus to Qualification roll (Traveller) is equivalent to a -2 threshold (ShadowRun).
+4 bonus to Advancement roll (Traveller) is equivalent to a -3 threshold (ShadowRun).

The unusual event (roll a 12 on life events) needs to be replaced in entirety.

Healer/Medic/Doctor doesn't fit under the "techie" superclass. Not enough skills; First Aid, Medicine, and Cybertechnology, of which you only really want one (First Aid), plus it differs too much from the others (Hacker and Mechanic, with Technomancer as the "advanced") to have any skills in a common pool, or any "other stuff" benefits.

[Synner667]

Careerwise, I think you should add :-
Doctor as a separate [or subset of Scientist]
Politician/Noble [high ranker in a hierarchy]
Dilettante [rich traveller - often a patron]
Barbarian [social misfit, such as a Luddite or Amish]
Merchant [crossover with Entrepreneur]
Journalist

However, I'd start with "basic" careers and let the dicerolls/choices determine career specialisations to determine the final career.


I think you need to go back to basics - decide what you want, without numbers :-
Character generation by table, each roll determining 'x' years of life and achievements
Character gains skill, promotion, bonus for later
At the end, Character leaves and starts the game, gaining benefits according to what's been accrued.


However, remember Traveller careers are subject to background/planet/etc.
SR doesn't really do Social Classes, or childhood - not in an Attribute way, so that might be something to think about.

I might have to dig out my copy of Black Book Traveller, because I don't remember much about the Traveller tables.

[Draco18s]

Career specializations shouldn't be random.

For ShadowRun I see each (set of) rolls being 2 years worth (vs. Traveller's four), as typically runners are younger, while still maintaining a highly skilled level of...skill. Eg. how often do you see a 20-something runner with a skill at 6 and at least one stat at 6?

I've got a few tables down, they just aren't easily posted to the forums. The math on the dice rolls was pretty easy to work out, I had a spreadsheet left over from the OR Threshold argument for determining the probability of N or more successes on Y dice, I just had to add columns for 1 success to 3 successes and find some base value that had results close to Traveller's 2d6 method.

Skills gained are dependent on "class" and a random factor, though due to the nature of some skills being unwanted (cough, banishing, cough) and the lower number of skills nature of ShadowRun I may have to introduce a higher degree of choice in the matter (such as rolling twice and picking one result).

And true, SR doesn't have a childhood or social standing in any way, though we do have Street Cred, Notoriety, and Public Awareness. I can easily see those being modified slightly by events, for example on the Life Events table of Traveller you can be accused of a crime (whether you did it or not) and lose social standing. IN SR terms it'd be gaining Notoriety (as runners commit crimes all the time, this event would be more breaking the gentleman's agreement of runners kind of thing).

I've thought about separating out Doctor, but there's nothing else to combine with it (SR doesn't really have scientist types) and it'd be rather sparce alone. Your Barbarian fits in under my Woodsman category--low/no-tech, rugged, etc. Dilettante, noble, and politician are even harder to squeeze into ShadowRun in this method as there are no High Society skills like Carouse, Steward, Admin, or Gambling.

That's part of the reason I need help. Breaking down ShadowRun into classes and subclasses is relatively easy. Giving each class a set of six different skills and then each subclass another set of skills unique from each other is extremely difficult.

[Synner667]

I wouldn't see careers as random, more "guided" by the dicerolls

Not sure why SR Characters have to be "younger" - much of the fiction that SR derives from has middle-aged Characters [none of the Characters in Neuromancer or Bladerunner or Robocop are young, for instance]...
...But then, maybe that can be tweaked according to the campaign - young, starting outs get 1 year per roll, middle aged and more settled characterd get 4 years per roll.

As for skills at 6 ??
That's the equivalent to fulltime training for years - "athletic superstar", "superstar amongst elite forces", "president:, "has patent to their name", "stunt pilot", "doctorate" [as per the SR v4 rulebook, at skill:6]...
...Not really the province of young people.

The gunbunny, mercenary criminals of SR are really not the characters of Traveller, which creates characters from a much broader spectrum...
...Much more like real life.

As in reallife, most Nobles/Politicians do things other than their job, and need relevant skills...
...Nobles/Politician have "soft" skills - riding, fencing, sports, administration, general knowledge, psychology, hunting, survival, finance, etc...
...Lots of skills, from the other 70% of skills that SR rarely focuses on.

If you want to recreate the Traveller "feel" with SR, you'll end up with characters having a much broader variety of skills...
...Skill gaining is different when you have to do it bit-by-bit, rather than all-at-once.


As a disclaimer, I ought to mention that I'm writing up my own system and am having to sort out character generation. So I'm finding this discussion interesting and a sounding board for me.

[Draco18s]

Points taken.

I do however mean younger than Traveller. In Traveler I made a character who served 6 terms (age 42) who didn't have any skills higher than 2, except one at 3 (Gunner aka Ship Mounted Weapons)).

Runners that should come out of this system should have their primary skills around 3 to 5 and be around the same age.

In any case, I don't mind a broader variety of skills, the problem is the lack of skills to have a variety in.

[Synner667]

I do however mean younger than Traveller. In Traveler I made a character who served 6 terms (age 42) who didn't have any skills higher than 2, except one at 3 (Gunner aka Ship Mounted Weapons)).

Runners that should come out of this system should have their primary skills around 3 to 5 and be around the same age.

In any case, I don't mind a broader variety of skills, the problem is the lack of skills to have a variety in.

Ahhh, I see [referring to "youth" and "not youth"]

Part of the difference is that in Traveller, Pistol:0 = familiar, Pistol:1 = competent, Pistol:2 = good, Pistol:3 = very good, Pistol:4 = amazing...
...So most people had skills in the 0-2 range [if I remember right]
Even though it's not accurate, doubling a Traveller skill level should give an approximate SR skill level.


I'm surprised that you don't know enough skills for your tables ??
I'm sorry, but I'm assuming you're relatively experienced RPG-er. Forgive me, if I'm bamboozling you


This website has some stuff about converting skills and attributes between different RPGs, success probabilities - interesting stuff, and useful !!

You can grab the GURPS Lite rules for free, and that includes more skills than most people even want to know about !!

[Draco18s]

I'm surprised that you don't know enough skills for your tables ??
I'm sorry, but I'm assuming you're relatively experienced RPG-er. Forgive me, if I'm bamboozling you

Carouse is not an active skill in ShadowRun. I'm not even sure it has an equivalent. Even as a knowledge skill it comes off as being borderline useless.

Gambling isn't an active skill either, and would fall under a use of an Edge Pool and maybe some diverse knowledge skills (each game).

[Ghantu]

I don't know how helpful you'd find it, but FASA actually made a lifepath generation system... for Mechwarrior (which I guess is "Classic Battletech RPG" now?). It's in the Mechwarrior 3rd book, and if I remember right, it's actually kind of a lifepath-point buy hybrid. It resulted in an awfully complicated skill process, though.

If I remember right, Twilight:2000 also had a lifepath system, but only in the second edition? It's easier for them, though, since all their characters had a military background anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Draco18s]

I think I came up with a resolution for skills between Traveller (40 some skills, 90% of which have some use) and ShadowRun (20 some skills, many of which are situationally useful).

Take 6 skills, chosen thus:

1 Knowledge skill (any)
1 Knowledge skill (related to career path)
1 Active Skill (any)
3 Active Skills (related to career path)

Number from one to six

Roll 1d6 twice, taking that result both times.

Of the skills related to the career path, those must be the same four skills (3 active, 1 knowledge) for as long as you are in that career.

This gives you 4 potential active skills which you are training at any given time, every 2 years worth nets you 1 rank in 2 skills.*

Advancement in rank could either be 2 more rolls or roll twice and take your choice of the two (symbolizing training choices, "Do I want to take a class on combat medicine (First Aid rank), or do I want to hit the shooting range and get better using my gun?"). I'm leaning towards the latter, which increases total skill ranks by 50% (going from Traveller's 4ish to ShadowRun's 6ish) as well as reintroducing more player choice.**

Rank benefits could be reduced to "raise any career skill or knowledge skill with fewer than N ranks by 1." The first (Rank 2) would probably have an N of 1, Rank 4 would have N of 2, and Rank 6 would have an N of 3, filling out your training so that your skill set is balanced such that you should always be capable of performing the basic tasks required.

Wordy footnotes

[ Spoiler ]

*The possibility does exist to get doubles, which could have a rule saying that you can either take 1 rank in that skill and roll 1 die again (taking the result no matter what, which lowers the probability of double skill gain) or re-rolling both (which provides a choice in the case that the player goes "oh, but I don't really want a 5th rank of Corporate Politics..." which did come up in tonight's Traveller chargen, I actually fudged a few skill rolls because I kept getting Streetwise (rolled Drifter/Noble), had I not fudged any rolls I'd have ended up with probably a 5 or better in Streetwise in a game that has max ranks of 4 where Medic 4 is a hyperspecialized brain surgeon).

**One of the other players started with more average stats than I did (I had a 3 and a 4, his lowest was a 6, but had a ton of 7s) failed nearly eveyr survival roll he made, except two. He dropped out of no less than 5 different careers (on the plus side, he does have a psychic strength of 3,*** but after running through the rolls of what he had (Teleportation--the most powerful) it turned out to be useless: once a week he could attempt to teleport up to his Psychic Strength in feet provided he made the skill check, which at his Psychic Strength of 3 and the power's difficulty meant he had to roll an 11 on 2d6. It also increased his debt by 100,000 to undergo training. The GM allowed (read: told) him to undo all of this because it was so worthless.

***You roll 2d6-N where N is the number of terms served so far, so even though he'd rolled above average (a 9 I think) he lost 6 due to the fact that his power had been latent for 24 years. Which means that in Traveller, not only are psychics rare (0.33% chance per 4 years to get tested, 2.33% as a Drifter), but those that do have talent can't do anything with it, due to the probability of finding out late in life.

[risingstar]

Not to be a downer on this, but couldn't someone just update the background generator from SR2/3?

If you can't find a copy of Shadowrun Supplement Issue #8, let me know and I can email it to you.

[Draco18s]

Not to be a downer on this, but couldn't someone just update the background generator from SR2/3?

If you can't find a copy of Shadowrun Supplement Issue #8, let me know and I can email it to you.

I didn't know it existed.
Go ahead and email it to me. @gmail.com

[risingstar]

I sent the file to you. Have you received it?

[Stahlseele]

As i am having trouble with coming up with a background and the such, i would be interested in the background generator.

[Draco18s]

I sent the file to you. Have you received it?

I did. Haven't had a chance to go over it yet.