Heightened Concentration, How SHOULD it work? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Nifft]

There seems to be some difference in interpretation regarding how this power works, which can be excused since it's so vaguely worded. The wording in question:

The adept is capable of tuning out a single distraction to her task at hand. When using this power, the adept can ignore a single situational negative dice pool modifier of a value up to her Magic attribute. This power requires a Complex Action to activate and maybe be[sic] combined with the Adept Centering metamagic.

Yes, "maybe be" is in the original text. Combined with my observations of contention regarding meaning & intent, this leads to my first assertion:

Assertion 1: This power was poorly written and edited. Reading deeply for hidden meaning will be fruitless.

- - -

Now, there are two ways people seem to read how the power works, RAW. To some, it looks like "task at hand" = "one test", and thus the power allows you to take a Complex action to negate one penalty to a single dicepool. To others, "task at hand" = multiple tests, and thus the power allows you to take a Complex action to negate one penalty to several dicepools.

There is a very significant power gap between these two interpretations. The first interpretation makes Heightened Concentration hardly worth its price, while the second (arguably) makes it among the best in the game.

Neither seems very balanced, though the latter could be if "task at hand" were defined. But it isn't.

- - -

So, how strong should Heightened Concentration be? Let's look at what you could do with the same 1 power point:
- Attribute Boost 4 + Magic 5 = 9 dice (+ Edge if you really care) = expected 3 successes (+ Edge) = +3 dice to something you care about for 3 combat rounds. Simple action, Stun drain to soak.
- Enhanced Perception 4 = +4 dice to something you care about several times per combat, always on, no drain to soak.
- Combat Sense 2 = +2 dice to something you really care about several times per round, always on, no drain to soak.

In contrast, the most liberal interpretation of Heightened Concentration grants you:
- Magic 5 = +5 dice (limited by situational modifiers, but it's not like it's hard to put yourself in situations where such modifiers exist). Complex action, always on, no drain to soak.

The closest direct comparison seems to be Attribute Boost, so let's consider using the duration limit on that.

- - -

Proposal: Revised Heightened Concentration
Cost: 1 pp
The adept is capable of tuning out a single source of distraction for a short time. When using this power, the adept can ignore a single situational negative dice pool modifier of a value up to her Magic attribute. This power requires a Complex Action to activate and lasts for (Magic +1) / 2 combat rounds. This power has the following limitations:
- You cannot use this power on a situational modifier to which you are not subject: i.e. you must be wounded to ignore wound penalties.
- Does not stack with Psyche: if you have 5 Magic, you can sustain 3 spells for a total penalty of -1 dice, which is still pretty darn good.

Thoughts? Thanks, -- N

[Karoline]

I think something that should be kept in mind is that it says a single situational negative. This is different than Adept Centering, in which you simply pull off any and all penalties. If for example you are taking a penalty from running, bad vision, recoil, and sustaining a spell, you can only drop one of those penalties with HC, but can potentially take all of them out with AC.

So yeah, HC can in theory take out (magic) worth of penalty, but in practice, very little actually gives such a large penalty all by itself.

So yeah, I think the first sentence is simply fluff, and the second is the actual rules. Complex action = one particular penalty does not apply to you until you pick a different penalty (or maybe go to sleep or lose the power somehow).

I don't see this generally giving you more than a couple of dice back on tests, and for a full power point, it seems about right. The one thing it can be very powerful for, is letting you fight blind with little to no penalty, but that doesn't happen very often with cybereyes and contacts with thermographic, and would at least require you to most likely burn a turn switching from whatever your biggest penalty was, to complete darkness.

Edit: To limit the power of mystic adepts, you might want to count each individual spell as its own separate penalty. Ie: sustaining levitation on myself and sustaining levitation on bob are two different penalties.

[Zyerne]

I think this came out of my biker adept thread and the suggestion you could use it to get rid of the -6 penalty for acting in meat space.

running in hotsim for the easily obtainable IPs then negating the penatly for acting in meat space does seem slighly overpowered.

[Karoline]

Doesn't that only cover perception checks? I thought it was -6 to perception and no word on anything else because it wasn't doable?

[Zyerne]

Perceiving the VR Matrix in its full glory overwhelms the physical
senses. Any action taken in the physical world while in VR suffers a –6 dice pool penalty.

That's from 4A and seems to suggest you can do anything you like, just with a large penalty.

[Demon_Bob]

Wanted to read over the full power before answering, but can't seem to locate it in my books. What page is it on?

I would say that it would be for one type of test, ongoing or otherwise.

For example: an adept could use it to help listen in on a conversation in a noisy enviroment; to make several perception rolls while looking for suspicious characters while on watch at night; texting a conversation in a mosh pit.

1 pp per mp at character creation = 10Bp. Considering that it is only a short term boost that you have to take a pass to activate it doesn't seem unreasonable. Giving the duration limit as Attribute Boost seems fair. Although Attribute Boost lasts for a number of combat rounds (number of hits generated)*2 in a Magic + (Attribute Boost) test, (Your way gets a average 1 combat round instead of 6.) and this would almost rule out using Heightened Concentration in longer interval non-combat situations.

[Nifft]

Wanted to read over the full power before answering, but can't seem to locate it in my books. What page is it on?

It's on the last page of Digital Grimoire.

I reproduced the power's full text up in the first post, in orange.

[Mongoose]

I think this came out of my biker adept thread and the suggestion you could use it to get rid of the -6 penalty for acting in meat space.

running in hotsim for the easily obtainable IPs then negating the penatly for acting in meat space does seem slighly overpowered.

Do you get extra IPs for meatspace actions? I though, if you rolled matrix Init, you effectively had more IPS to do stuff in the matrix. So yeah, you would might go first a bit more often (or not), and you could hack and fight at the same time, but you couldn't do any more fighting than normal.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I think something that should be kept in mind is that it says a single situational negative. This is different than Adept Centering, in which you simply pull off any and all penalties. If for example you are taking a penalty from running, bad vision, recoil, and sustaining a spell, you can only drop one of those penalties with HC, but can potentially take all of them out with AC.

So yeah, HC can in theory take out (magic) worth of penalty, but in practice, very little actually gives such a large penalty all by itself.

So yeah, I think the first sentence is simply fluff, and the second is the actual rules. Complex action = one particular penalty does not apply to you until you pick a different penalty (or maybe go to sleep or lose the power somehow).

I don't see this generally giving you more than a couple of dice back on tests, and for a full power point, it seems about right. The one thing it can be very powerful for, is letting you fight blind with little to no penalty, but that doesn't happen very often with cybereyes and contacts with thermographic, and would at least require you to most likely burn a turn switching from whatever your biggest penalty was, to complete darkness.

Edit: To limit the power of mystic adepts, you might want to count each individual spell as its own separate penalty. Ie: sustaining levitation on myself and sustaining levitation on bob are two different penalties.

Out of curiousity, Why? Sustaining is a single penalty that increments up depending upon the number of spells being sustained... there are lots of other things that could result in a single -6 to a task... Lets assume a Magic of 6. Blind fire is a -6; with heightened concentration, the penalty would go away... Sustaining 3 Spells simultaneously... Ditto... Combined wound penalties (9 Stun and 9 Physical) of -6... Gone with Heightened Concentration... Even Muliple Targeting Penalties for shooting at four targets (-6, again an incrementing penalty based upon number of targets)... handled... that is just three or four very quickly...

The problem as I see it is in the description of a "Task"... What is that? Is it a single action? Is it a single task? Is it a single dice roll? I prefer to interpret it as a single Task... I am repairing my car... I am Programming a piece of software... I am Taking the critical Shot to eliminate the Director of Foreign Relations for Mitsuhama... I am Flying a Helicopter in a Combat Zone From point A to Point B...

All of the above examples are of a single task, but they each last a varying amount of time, from a simple action to possibly a month or more... this is where the clarification must be made... not on what penalties are involved, but what exactly a "Task" truly is...

For the record... I prefer the interpretation that a Task is a grouping of actions, possibly as little as a single action, and possibly as much as multiple rolls made over many weeks... this does not lend itself to being very overpowered in my opinion... after all, it is only for a single penalty... and there are myriad penalties that can accrue on both the short term and long term, for any task that you may take...

Keep the Faith

[Udoshi]

So yeah, I think the first sentence is simply fluff, and the second is the actual rules. Complex action = one particular penalty does not apply to you until you pick a different penalty (or maybe go to sleep or lose the power somehow).

I, for once, and glad to see this given its own thread - and some crunch to boot - because this power has been crapping up almost every thread i've seen this week with adepts.

After researching the heck out of the penalties it can save you from, it gives you about 2-3 dice back on average - and for a full power point, it ought to be good. Furthermore, it can be used for some powerful things, like blind fighting, spell sustaining, and Extreme range shooting - can all be done comparably with the proper training or equipment selectiion. For blind fighting there's a martial art, a martial maneuver, and various enhanced senses/sensors. Spell sustaining has foci and spirits, and vision magnification/enhance aim spell/smartgun improved range finders helps take care of long range shooting. The point being, that it has a comparable benefit to other things - except, like all adept powers, its magic-based and always on.

That being said, I read it the same way karoline does. There are a few things that I keep in mind that make it a lot more balanced. The first being that you can't target a penalty that doesn't exist yet - or one you don't know about. As a personal rule, you can't use it on the 'Extended Test -1' rule, because that's -made- to nerf extended tests specifically. And the last is that you can't use it on more than one thing at a time - if you, for example, take a complex action to ignore one penalty, then immediately after take another complex action to ignore a different penalty, only the newer one applies - because then you'd be ignoring two situational modifiers, and heightened concentration only lets you ignore one. (It also doesn't have Levels, so you can't take it more than once to get around that.)

I'm away from books right now, but I think it'd be a good idea to get some ideas/lists together for common stuff/rolls a prospective player -would- be using heightened concentration on - so we can see how much it would cost to do the same thing through other means. It ought to help with balancing the power.

[Ancient History]

As one of the people involved in DG, I believe the second interpretation (i.e. more than a single test) is the one we were going for. The general idea is that you could combine it with Living Focus, have a magician cast a buff spell on you, and then you could sustain it on yourself while kicking ass.

[Zyerne]

Full auto burst from a modified Enfield AS-7 with no recoil comp gives a -18 modifier.

Not a terribly practical applicaton of the power, but possible I think.

[Ol' Scratch]

It should work exactly as described, and in reference to exactly the same wording used throughout the rules. A task is a specific action or, in rare cases, a block of closely-related actions.

No basic, single power or ability should be as powerful as some people around here desperately wish Heightened Concentration was. Being able to negate a single (and often very large) penalty in exchange for focusing one's concentration is more than powerful enough, especially when combined with Adept Centering. In no way should it be more powerful than a metamagic technique. Which is exactly what it becomes with the nonsense "interpretations" some people are making. A reduction of cumulative penalties equal to your initiatory grade at the cost of requiring a specific type of action to be performed along with the normal action (plus one grade of initaition and one metamagic technique), vs. an effectively permanent penalty reduction equal to your Magic rating in exchange for one little Complex Action you took ten years ago (and only costing you one Power Point)?! Insanity. Allowing you to exchange a Complex Action for a large penalty reduction? Definitely more appropriate for an adept power.

If I were to change anything, it'd be to lower the Power Point cost to 0.5 or so. If it were to work the other way, it'd need to cost more like 5 Power Points at least.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

As one of the people involved in DG, I believe the second interpretation (i.e. more than a single test) is the one we were going for. The general idea is that you could combine it with Living Focus, have a magician cast a buff spell on you, and then you could sustain it on yourself while kicking ass.

The Great and All Powerful Ancient History has spoken... So let it be written, so let it be done...

Kind of what I expected, and generally how we use it...At least I know I was not all that wrong with waht I was thinking...

Keep the Faith

[Nifft]

As one of the people involved in DG, I believe the second interpretation (i.e. more than a single test) is the one we were going for. The general idea is that you could combine it with Living Focus, have a magician cast a buff spell on you, and then you could sustain it on yourself while kicking ass.

Thanks for your insight.

May I ask about how long you envisioned the power working?

IMHO, "all or most of a combat" is reasonable, but I could see arguments that it wouldn't be unbalanced if it also allowed the PC to remove one situational modifier from an extended test. (Not the cumulative penalty, of course, but some other penalty.)

Thanks, -- N

[Ancient History]

I can't remember who originally wrote the power - I was mostly playing with Enchanting at that point - but I don't believe a specific duration was ever in mind. The important bit was ignoring one, specific distraction/penalty.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I can't remember who originally wrote the power - I was mostly playing with Enchanting at that point - but I don't believe a specific duration was ever in mind. The important bit was ignoring one, specific distraction/penalty.

I would say you ignore the penalty as long as it exists... which is to say that once the task has been completed, there is no longer a penalty, so there is no need for the power to be on...

Pretty simple I would think...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

I said in the other thread: I feel like it's pretty clear that 'task' should mean, *at most* a couple of closely-related tests, and usually just one Test/Extended Test. I'm not addressing RAI, but what seems balanced and reasonable.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I said in the other thread: I feel like it's pretty clear that 'task' should mean, *at most* a couple of closely-related tests, and usually just one Test/Extended Test. I'm not addressing RAI, but what seems balanced and reasonable.

Which is definitely okay... opinions will vary, and not everyone will agree...
But with AH's input above, it seems like it is pretty cut and dried in my opinion...

Keep the Faith

[Ol' Scratch]

To be fair, while AH is really good with the fluff stuff, he's never been very good with the rules. Especially coming up with balanced ones.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

To be fair, while AH is really good with the fluff stuff, he's never been very good with the rules. Especially coming up with balanced ones.

Perhaps... but the intent is pretty obvious once he chimed in... Fortunately, it jived with what I was thinking...

The biggest limiter to the power is that there are no penalties that are inherently applied all the time... so once you have completed your task, the penalties will no longer apply, and the power will be extraneous... and I would say that at the least, it "drops" once the character goes unconscious either voluntarily or involuntarily...

I do not see it as being as powerful as some are making it out to be... could you construct an edge case and then argue it is broken? Sure... but you can do that with almost every rule in the book... Edge Cases are not the mainstream useage of any power or ability, so it is not really that big of a deal...

Keep the Faith

[Ol' Scratch]

It comes down to balancing it with Adept Centering. One requires a minimum of one initiatory grade and a metamagic technique, plus the freedom to perform whatever the centering action is, and then only lowers penalties up to your initiatory grade (so just -1 to -3 for most runners outside of power games), versus a single power point that reduces up to a -6 penalty on a whim, simply at the cost of a single Complex Action. That is in no way balanced except in the case where it only applies to a single action or very closely related set of actions for a short duration.

Consider also the same threads where the people advocating the superpowered version come in and recommend it. Every time it's for rather munchkiny purposes, like completely ignoring the huge penalty you suffer when using VR. Every single time as of late. That's a huge indicator of how broken it is under that interpretation.

[Ancient History]

To be fair, while AH is really good with the fluff stuff, he's never been very good with the rules. Especially coming up with balanced ones.

Ow. And I didn't even write that one.

's not true, either. I've had my missteps (Runner's Companion [I'm sorry]) but the bulk of my rules work in Street Magic, Arsenal, Unwired, Running Wild and Digital Grimoire is pretty solid. The FAQ...well, I'm not perfect.

[Falconer]

I'm reading that, and Ancient's reading is solid. Also, Ancient's had a lot more good work than bad, and to his credit he has always taken his lumps as well as his accolades in defending his work. And the most recent FAQ is an order of magnitude better than the old one. (there's only two points where it directly contradicts the rules... splitting dicepools as there's no such thing as pre-split modifiers and post-split modifiers in the core rulebook (good one for errata, but then every single dice pool mod would need to be defined as pre/post), and the use of the full magic attribute in MysticAdepts).

The power at hand.
Name 'a single situational negative dice pool modifier'... IE: if it's a nasty visibility penalty... that's great... but if you suddenly end up in a well lit area... then that specific penalty is no longer a problem... then you'd need to change the penalty as appropriate. The living focus combo is kinda neat AH.

A sniper... I could see called shot for damage getting used... but it's very easy to name those as individual single situational modifiers if you find them abusive. IE: Call shot, concentrate, fire in the next pass. Now that called shot action is ended, so the single situational dice pool modifier is gone. Adept now needs to concentrate again for a second shot. Recoil comp is similar... recoil comes and goes each and every pass. Though something like ranged attacker in melee is something which you concentrate for, then find yourself in an extended melee (and ignore the -3 ranged attacker in melee, while still getting the +2 point-blank bonus).


I'm also on board with treating each sustaining penalty as a separate distraction. Put simply, MysAdept w/ 1 point in this power, 5 points in magic. As per the RULEBOOK (not the updated FAQ which is directly contradicted by the printed SR4a rules), the full magic attribute is used for all other purposes. IE: he can ignore up to 6 points of penalties... that's *3* sustained spells... and the 'specific task' at hand doesn't really end until he drops the spells. So effectively the Mystic adept is his own living sustaining focus w/ no penalty and has only dropped a single die compared to a straight magician.

The other reason, is that initiations now cost a lot less than raising magic... so if the Mystic adept raises his initiate grade to 4.. that's now 2 spells sustained since that power specifically doesn't name individual sources, and it's a much more gradual and balanced growth in abilities.

Other potential examples.. monster summoner. As a mystic adept... increase attribute 2 drain stats to max (and maybe increase reflexes as well just in case things go to hell). Use concentration to ignore the penalties. Now instead of having to pick between 'adept centering' and 'centering' as the free action during summoning/binding. You get the best of both worlds. Between those heavily improved stats and edge... binding a force 12 is quite doable.

So yes, I strongly suggest that individual spells be treated as individual sustaining penalties.

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not sure I follow. If each sustaining penalty is separate, that means HC negates one -2, right? It's true that the worst imbalance of a 'long term' HC reading is that you can ignore -6 of 'bundled' sustaining penalties by calling them a single penalty. Is that what you're addressing?

If not, then the balance (with Adept Centering) is still the problem.

[Karoline]

I'm not sure I follow. If each sustaining penalty is separate, that means HC negates one -2, right? It's true that the worst imbalance of a 'long term' HC reading is that you can ignore -6 of 'bundled' sustaining penalties by calling them a single penalty. Is that what you're addressing?

If not, then the balance (with Adept Centering) is still the problem.

Yep, that's what he is saying, which is what I suggested so that a mystic adept doesn't become their own three free sustaining foci of unlimited force. Basically for one power point you get a free sustaining foci of unlimited force, and can occasionally use it to knock out big penalties like firing blind.

I also agree with some of the other suggestions, such as you must be suffering the penalty in order to HC it. So if you are fighting, and suddenly drop into total darkness, you'll need to spend a complex action to negate the total darkness, and then when the total darkness goes away (For more than a turn or so) HC drops.

Besides, is this really that much more powerful than "Spirit of man, cast and sustain this spell on me for all eternity for one service."?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Besides, is this really that much more powerful than "Spirit of man, cast and sustain this spell on me for all eternity for one service."?

Whole Different Conversation there... and one that continuously crops up... I don't think that it has ever been resolved to anyone's satisfaction... I know where I fall on this one (If you want long term service such as that, bind the spirit to a long term service (1 Year and a Day), pay the karma, and there you go, otherwise, not going to happen in my games.)... Those who want eternal protection from a spirit would be generally unhappy with the Spirit's interpretation of that service at any table that I run...

Keep the Faith

[Nifft]

Alright, it seems like we've got a good grasp on what the power's intent was, and on its intended limitation. Let's move on to perceived abuses.

What are the abuses that people can see for it? It looks like it's easy enough to get a -6 situational dice penalty on purpose -- darkness w/o thermographic vision, long range w/o image magnification & no imaging scope -- but both of those are easily solved with some cheap cyber, or with some cheap gear + a Simple action.

The worst one I can think of is Psyche + Living Focus, but even that is only subject to abuse if your GM interprets the sustaining penalties of multiple spells to actually be a single modifier rather than a bunch of modifiers which stack.

What else is there that makes people perceive the power as strong, or even "broken"?

Thanks, -- N

[Yerameyahu]

… I think it's just that. Kind of a big deal.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

… I think it's just that. Kind of a big deal.

Not really... at least not in my book...

As for the Individual Penalty vs Independant Penalties for Sustaining... You take a -2 Penalty per Spell Sustained (so 3 spells is -6, not -2 + -2 + -2)... May be an interpretation, but really, not all that powerful in my mind... you cannot sustain while sleeping unless the spell is sustained by a focus, sustained by a spirit, bound by a spirit, or Quickened... so at best, that spell sustainment lasts for the time that you are awake... big deal... you can shove them off to a spirit just as easily... and there are other things that I would rather eliminate, like visibility mods... sure you can do so with tech, but the only tech that matters for a mage is cybernetic (you cannot cast through technologicall sensors that do not cost essence), and if you are implanting cybernetics, your magic suffers, so eliminating visibility mods is usually higher on my list than eliminating the sustaining penalties...

Just Sayin'

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

I dunno about your book, but the fundamental point is that if 1pp HC lets you sustain 3 spells for free, it's unbalanced against Adept Centering, right?

[Ol' Scratch]

If the purpose was to allow an adept with Living Focus to sustain the spell without penalty, it should have been a power that did precisely that.

Concentrated Focus
Cost: .25 points per level (max 2 levels)

Each rank of this power lowers the -2 dice pool modifier for all actions by one point while sustaining a spell through the Living Focus power.

That would allow the adept to duplicate the effects of a universal (in that it's not limited to one category of spells) sustaining focus with a force equal to their Magic rating for only 1.5 power points. It only steps on the toes of Adept Centering slightly, making it a perfectly reasonable and balanced adept power. The interpretation of Heightened Concentration is neither reasonable nor balanced; it's grossly overpowered compared to its equivalent options.

[Ancient History]

I was just giving that out there as an example. As I said, I didn't write this particular power.

[Ol' Scratch]

I was just giving that out there as an example. As I said, I didn't write this particular power.

Well if the goal was to simply allow adepts to lower negative dice pool modifiers, no power at all was needed. Adept Centering already existed for that very purpose, and was already limited to adepts. Such a power would either need to be specifically targeted (as above) or greatly restricted (which it isn't, especially with the given interpretation).

[Nifft]

… I think it's just that. Kind of a big deal.

If that's the only situation in which the power is broken, then it's trivial to fix only that situation and leave the power alone.

Karoline's solution of tracking each sustained spell as a separate penalty fixes this situation just fine.

[Yerameyahu]

Right, that's what I said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The result is a kind of redundant power, but oh well.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Right, that's what I said. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) The result is a kind of redundant power, but oh well.

Not really, because it is still oh so useful for countering that -6 Blind Fire penalty that is out there... and various other penalties that can climb that high... can't break them all down into neat -2 bite size penalties...

I do not see it as a problem myself, but others think that it is a very big deal... your mileage will obviously vary...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

*Kind of* redundant, not 'nearly worthless'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*Kind of* redundant, not 'nearly worthless'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Sure... Gotcha... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
But if it is okay for the other penalties, why the beef with the sustaining Penalty?

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

Because who cares about visibility, or even VR penalties? The abuse potential isn't there, while a bunch of spells are a big deal.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because who cares about visibility, or even VR penalties? The abuse potential isn't there, while a bunch of spells are a big deal.

See, I disagree here... if it is abusive for a -6 penalty to be ignored for Spell Sustaining, then it should be just as abusive as ignoring total blindness (-6) or Extreme Range Rifle Shots (-6), or Acting with full capacity while still in VR (-6)... it is a penalty that is reduced, and a fairly large penalty at that...

If the vast majority of penalties are no big deal, then the Sustaining Penalty shoud be so insignificant, that it is irrelevant... Already, you can pass off all sustained spells to spirits and suffer absolutely no penalties what so ever... because of this, I see no difference in ignoring the spell sustaining penalties en masse...

And really, since a full mage does not have this option, it is fairly isolated anyways... The Mystic Adept would get a minor benefit, but this adept ability is for the Physad primarily, who does not sustain spells unless he has the Living Focus Power, and then only for spells cast upon him... it does not work for any other spells...

So... it really is NOT as big of a deal as people are making it out to be... For the ability to sustain spells with Heightened Concentration, the Adept spends 2 points of magic, and the Mystic Adept spends 1 point of magic... this truly seems like an edge concern at best... and like I said, there are other penalties that are a hell of a lot more important to a Physical Adept than Spell Sustaining Penalties...

Anyways...

keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

I guess, but you should have SuperGoggles™, or Visual Magnification 3, and hell, you're *busy* when you're in VR. *shrug*

Besides, my position is that you're spend a Complex Action for a very temporary benefit (*one* of those rifle shots per Complex Action), so I really don't feel too strongly about it anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I guess, but you should have SuperGoggles™, or Visual Magnification 3, and hell, you're *busy* when you're in VR. *shrug*

Besides, my position is that you're spend a Complex Action for a very temporary benefit (*one* of those rifle shots per Complex Action), so I really don't feel too strongly about it anyway. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Sure, you can compensate for penalties in a large number of ways... and that is exactly my point, it is just ANOTHER way to compensate for more penalties... big deal...

Sure it could be very temporary, after all, some penalties are very short lived... but then again, maybe it won't be temporary... maybe you will be ignoring the Multiple Attackers penalty in a large combat (-4), or maybe you are going to ignore the penalties for climbing the Sears Tower (-4) which will take a while, or maybe you will be ignoring the extremem weather conditions that are imposed upon a survival test (-4) over the next week while you try to survive... Maybe you have lost your eyes, and you need to compensate for the loss until you can have a set regrown (-6)... the list can go on and on...

There are a large number of very high penalty modifiers that can often come into play... some of them will be very situational with a very short duration, while others may well last weeks... The investment in something Like Heightened Concentration amy well be the difference between having a penalty and not...especially for the more difficult ones to counter with technology...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

But I'm still saying that you can't use it for half of your examples. An Extended Test is one thing, but 'until your eyes are regrown' is absurd.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

But I'm still saying that you can't use it for half of your examples. An Extended Test is one thing, but 'until your eyes are regrown' is absurd.

No it is just an extreme edge case... every morning, you activate the Ability, and would probably continue to do so through out the day (It does not work when you are asleep obviously, as you cannot perform tasks in your sleep), and even if you are in the Hospital, and do absolutely nothing else, you will not suffer the targeting penalty to not having eyes, though you may need to make a perception roll (I would at least force a perception roll (A relevant Task) in this case anyways, unless the character had the ability to perform Astral Perception, which would make that edge case moot anyways)... I know it is an edge example, but the point is that if you contend that the only reason you think it is broken is because of the ability to sustain multiple spells, well, nothing else should matter per your own admission earlier...

And you CAN use it for ALL of my examples (even if they are a bit ludicrous)... they are all examples of situational modifiers of one sort or another, and they are all MODIFIERS, which can be negated by the use of the ability... some are obviously more edge cases than others (The Eyes example being what I am refering to)... but since the ability can be applied to ANY MODIFIERS, for ANY TASK at hand, you must accept the ramifications of such an ability, if you accept the premise of the power... which you said you do with the exception of Sustaining penalties...

You cannot have it both ways, either the ability is extremely broken (all the way across the board, which I do not believe), or it isn't... it can't be broken for just a few penalties and not others... "It is okay to offset the -2's and -3's, but once you get to -6's then that becomes absurd."
That is absurd in and of itself in my opinion...

And like I said, you can have technological reduction of most, if not all, of the above mentioned penalties, though some are in the form of bonuses, which are an indirect reduction rather than a direct one...

Keep the Faith

[Yerameyahu]

No, the brokenness comes from saying it works all the time. If you're spending Complex Actions very often for the Blindness, that's totally *fine*. Some people are talking about it simply working… and working, and working. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You're right, the opinion you call absurd is; it's just not the one I'm expressing.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

No, the brokenness comes from saying it works all the time. If you're spending Complex Actions very often for the Blindness, that's totally *fine*. Some people are talking about it simply working… and working, and working. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You're right, the opinion you call absurd is; it's just not the one I'm expressing.

Gotcha...

My contention is that a Task can be very short lived (The Sniper removing the Range Penalties, or Armor Penalties), moderate duration (Climbing the Sears Tower), or very long (Trying to survive in the harsh arctic environment until help arrives; Just surviving, not doing anything else)... these are all examples of a Single "Task" that have variable durations...

Because a Task is not a defined interval of time, it causes people to look at it as a broken power, because you COULD conceivably have a Task that is never ending, but since you would, at a minimum, need to select the penalties to reduce each and every morning, I do not see it as all that big of a deal...

Everyone is different though...

Keep the Faith

[Falconer]

I strongly disagree with you Tymeaus. The ONLY thing which keeps mages from turning into absolute monsters is the inability to sustain large numbers of spells at once.

What are the options...
sustaining foci. Nice, but limit on force, and also focus addiction.

Spirit of Man. Great, you just summoned your one unbound spirit of man, who as his service has cast and sustained his innate spell power on you. You now lose that spell if you order that spirit to do anything else. (a service ends when a new one is ordered). You want more than one spell... I hope you have a lot of spirits bound ($$$)... in which case, that's the only service they're going to be providing, robbing the mage of one of his most potent assets (squad of spirits on demand).

Quickening: Yeah, yet another karma expenditure.. AND lots of drawbacks when it comes to simple stuff like passing through wards.

That drug which reduces the penalty from -2 to -1... not so much eliminating as reducing the penalty. Again addiction risk.

Mystic Adepts added bene's:
Adept centering... one requires a lot of initiate grades and the metamagic *AND* the use of your free action every round in combat. What does this mean... Running is a free action, he better like his walk speed! COMMUNICATING WITH TEAMMATES IS A FREE ACTION. Is the mage talking with the other players during a combat? There's a lot of things which are free actions. How... Are you giving the mage too many actions!!! Using the free action for adept centering... means you can't use the free action for other things like mage centering to reduce drain.

Concentration: Uh, just a mere 1PP adept power... then a complex action after which it lasts all day...


You don't see the complete and utter lack of drawbacks in there. If your mages are regularly casting and maintaining 3+ spells on them w/o penalty... then you're grossly overpowering them. This is also the reason I have issues w/ Muspellsheimr's special 'weaving' metamagic he's posted.

Have I as a player mage been known to rack up -10 sustaining penalties... yeah... but I'm not sustaining those spells on myself but on other players or spirits while I hide!

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I strongly disagree with you Tymeaus. The ONLY thing which keeps mages from turning into absolute monsters is the inability to sustain large numbers of spells at once.

What are the options...
sustaining foci. Nice, but limit on force, and also focus addiction.

Spirit of Man. Great, you just summoned your one unbound spirit of man, who as his service has cast and sustained his innate spell power on you. You now lose that spell if you order that spirit to do anything else. (a service ends when a new one is ordered). You want more than one spell... I hope you have a lot of spirits bound ($$$)... in which case, that's the only service they're going to be providing, robbing the mage of one of his most potent assets (squad of spirits on demand).

Quickening: Yeah, yet another karma expenditure.. AND lots of drawbacks when it comes to simple stuff like passing through wards.

That drug which reduces the penalty from -2 to -1... not so much eliminating as reducing the penalty. Again addiction risk.

Mystic Adepts added bene's:
Adept centering... one requires a lot of initiate grades and the metamagic *AND* the use of your free action every round in combat. What does this mean... Running is a free action, he better like his walk speed! COMMUNICATING WITH TEAMMATES IS A FREE ACTION. Is the mage talking with the other players during a combat? There's a lot of things which are free actions. How... Are you giving the mage too many actions!!! Using the free action for adept centering... means you can't use the free action for other things like mage centering to reduce drain.

Concentration: Uh, just a mere 1PP adept power... then a complex action after which it lasts all day...


You don't see the complete and utter lack of drawbacks in there. If your mages are regularly casting and maintaining 3+ spells on them w/o penalty... then you're grossly overpowering them. This is also the reason I have issues w/ Muspellsheimr's special 'weaving' metamagic he's posted.

Have I as a player mage been known to rack up -10 sustaining penalties... yeah... but I'm not sustaining those spells on myself but on other players or spirits while I hide!

I understand your concerns here Falconer, I really do, but We are not talking about large numbers of spells here... at max attribute (6) for a starting character, that is 3 spells, which he can do with spirits all day long if he likes, and even for days if he is particularly vicious about it... Also, there are long-Term Bound Spirits, which, if I remember correctly, do not count towards your number of bound spirits, as they have been paid for in karma for a Year and a Day... and Foci are readily available (though you do have to watch out for Focus addiction), but honestly, the average Shadowrunner spellcaster can have 3-4 sustaining foci and never have issues... And with Spellcasting dice pools able to reach the high teens pretty easily, the sustaining penalty for 3 spells is almost trivial to well constructed mages in the first place... so no, I do not see this significantly empowering Mystic Adepts in the end...

Summonned and bound spirits will BIND a spell until they no longer exist and all it costs is Money (and a fair contempt for spirits in general)...
AS said previously... Mages do not gain any nbenefit from the Adept Power, and Mystic Adepts gain some benefit, but at the cost of their spellcasting power... so again, not a big deal...

The Biggest benefit to this adept power is that it can apply to ANY negative modifiers... ANY AT ALL, and that is its true strength... like I said earlier, there are often penalties that a spellcaster needs to worry about more than his sustaining penalties, which will tend to take precedence over the penalties for spell sustainment. Almost every Mage I have seen played handles their spell sustaining already, and most do not tend to suffer much in the process, so I do not see this as that big of a deal... Mages ARE powerful, but not overly so, and they are pretty easy to keep in their place...

Anyways... an example of play... Our Mage has a Magic Rating of 6 and a Charisma of 5 (has been in play 2 years or so, and has 250 or so Karma; he is a Grade 5 initiate)... he regularly summons his allotment of spirits and binds them, including Great Form Spirits... he splits between Spirits of Man and spirits that will benefit him in his Spellcasting Catpgories... when he enters a fight, any sustained spells immediately end up on a spirtit for 4 or 5 TURNS per service... when, and if, he actually loses a spirit, he just replaces it later... he rarely is ever caught with his pants down, and is rarely ever hampered by Spell Sustaining Penalties (he is a Mage so he could not benefit from Heightened Concentration anyways)... but notice... he does not suffer penalties for spell sustainment, his spirits do it for him, and they are still useful in other roles as well... this is no different than Heightened Concentration in effect...

Heightened Concetration is just another way (in a plethora of ways) to manage Modifiers... nothing more... it is infinitely more useful than just as a Spell Sustaining Focus...

Anyways...

Keep the Faith

[Falconer]

Like visibility... well blind fire doesn't apply to spells.

My dwarf has no trouble w/ visibility... (he took the night vision quality in RC, so he has both darkvision and low-light naturally). No cyber involved. Even without that, if using astral perception... most common visibility penalties disappear.

I have no idea how you come up with 3-4 sustaining foci... magic 6 means max of 12 force in active foci unless you're bringing focus addiction into play. Lets be generous 1 power focus, and 2 force 4 sustaining foci (of individual schools). The spells cast into those foci are of very limited force... the foci themselves cost both money & karma. So it's nothing like the adept power (which offers effectively unlimited force, no money/karma cost... just a -1 dice magic... which is quickly offset by ignoring many other bigger penalties).

Another thing you don't stop and consider are those means are not mutually exclusive. You could use a sustaining focus, spirits, AND centering and have an absolute monstrous amount of buffing on you.



Also, something you just said doesn't compute... your mage shoves all his sustained spells off on *A* spirit... A spirit will sustain *1* spell (of the appropriate school) for Force combat turns for a single service. Just how many spells is he sustaining?! As per the FAQ clarification (which I really like)... a spirit will only provide 1 service at a time. He also must be really rolling in the dough to have a full stable of high force spirits bound.
(each spirit at say force 6 is $3000 in ritual materials, if he's edging services and gets 10 services per binding (this is actually a high estimate as it's effecitvely 24 vs 18 dice net hits), each bound service is 300+). Not only this.. if he has substantial sustaining penalty it applies to everything from perception and so on... ordering a spirit to do this for a service is a simple action for each spirit.

It sounds to me as if said mage is not having the rules enforced properly against him.


Also, abuse of spirits is something for the GM to monitor... if he's actually regularly getting his spirits killed (or draining them to power spells)... his spirits will start spending edge to resist him, or will start using 'wish wording' where the GM asks what he orders the spirit to do, because the spirit will do it in it's own way which he may not like.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Like visibility... well blind fire doesn't apply to spells.

My dwarf has no trouble w/ visibility... (he took the night vision quality in RC, so he has both darkvision and low-light naturally). No cyber involved. Even without that, if using astral perception... most common visibility penalties disappear.

I have no idea how you come up with 3-4 sustaining foci... magic 6 means max of 12 force in active foci unless you're bringing focus addiction into play. Lets be generous 1 power focus, and 2 force 4 sustaining foci (of individual schools). The spells cast into those foci are of very limited force... the foci themselves cost both money & karma. So it's nothing like the adept power (which offers effectively unlimited force, no money/karma cost... just a -1 dice magic... which is quickly offset by ignoring many other bigger penalties).

Another thing you don't stop and consider are those means are not mutually exclusive. You could use a sustaining focus, spirits, AND centering and have an absolute monstrous amount of buffing on you.



Also, something you just said doesn't compute... your mage shoves all his sustained spells off on *A* spirit... A spirit will sustain *1* spell (of the appropriate school) for Force combat turns for a single service. Just how many spells is he sustaining?! As per the FAQ clarification (which I really like)... a spirit will only provide 1 service at a time. He also must be really rolling in the dough to have a full stable of high force spirits bound.
(each spirit at say force 6 is $3000 in ritual materials, if he's edging services and gets 10 services per binding (this is actually a high estimate as it's effecitvely 24 vs 18 dice net hits), each bound service is 300+). Not only this.. if he has substantial sustaining penalty it applies to everything from perception and so on... ordering a spirit to do this for a service is a simple action for each spirit.

It sounds to me as if said mage is not having the rules enforced properly against him.


Also, abuse of spirits is something for the GM to monitor... if he's actually regularly getting his spirits killed (or draining them to power spells)... his spirits will start spending edge to resist him, or will start using 'wish wording' where the GM asks what he orders the spirit to do, because the spirit will do it in it's own way which he may not like.

Alright... <Cracks knuckles to allow better typing>

Visibility Modifiers are easily canceled for Adepts with this trick, Mages will not get the benefit, because, well, they cannot have Heightened Concentration, and they really do not need the break anyways... Mystic Adepts could of course benefit...

I have found it more common for Mages to have 3 or 4 sustaining Foci from rating 2-3; Power Foci are rare in my experience, though I do understand their utility, and I have seen them, but the ones I have commonly come across are rating 2... so 2 Rating 2, and 2 Rating 3 Sustaining Foci, and a Power Foci 4 equals 12... which generally fits into the better mages pretty darn easily with no risk of Addiction, and all active at the same time (Logic 5)...

Of course they are not mutually exclusive, and I am okay with that... as I said, there are so few actual Mystic Adepts that I have come across (mostly played by me actually) that the difference does not really matter... Mages cannot use Adept powers, so it is not abused like many tend to imply...

Now, My Teams current Mage... he has on call, ALWAYS, 5 spirits due to binding, though he rarely edges a Summoning or a Binding. He always summons that 6th one when bad things start to happen... he casts spells and sustains them himself (usually one or two) until something happens and then passes them off to his Spirits (Should have been plural, in case it wasn't before)... Many times his Spirits of Man are responsible for the maintenance spells that he generally uses all the time (his Increased Reflexes and Increased Agility Spells)... Now, he commonly has anywhere between 4 and 8 services per spirit, and that is a lot of sustaining; as well, Spirits of man cast their own spells and sustain them themselves, so a couple less spells for the mage to cast... Indeed it takes a few simple actions for the Mage to hand off Sustaining penalties, and he is not responsible for performing much in the way of other activities, he is our casting and summoning expert, not our perception expert (which I fill, along with several others) and the other mage is responsible for astral perception tasks and whatnot...

His spirits are generally in the force 3-4 range most commonly, with the spontaneous spirit either a force 4 or 5.. He never Spell binds them, so his actions are not generally seen as harmful to the spirits, so abuse is not a problem... in fact, he actually goes out of his way to make sure that he remains on good terms with his spirits, often even releasing them with services remaining if they have performed exceptionally for him... He has even gone on Astral Quests to simple converse with tehm in their own home metaplanes on occasion... Weird I know... Now, at our table, all spirits above force 3 spend Edge to resist summonig by default, and you have to go way out of your way to get around that by treating your spirits well, appeasing them at every opportunity , and maybe even offering rewards for their services... he has yet to get a spirit killed in the entire time that he has played the character, generally releasing wounded spirits before they go down in combat... he treats them quite well... Our GM is well on the ball for the ethical treatment of Spirits, and he enforces the Magical rules very well indeed... it is a rare summoning that goes beyond a mage's Magic Rating (our mage has only done it once in two years, and it was for a force 7 Spirit, and only just recently, because we absolutely had to have a more powerful spirit than he normally summons)

As for the costs of spirits, yes, he spends a fair amount of funds on binding materials (which he gets at a 20% discount from his Magical Group), which oftentimes the group pitches in for, much like they pitch in for the drones for my character's drone operations (none of which are expensive, and generally all are less than 10,000 Nuyen, with most around the 2-3, 000 Nuyen mark; Surveillance Drones Primarily)... Now, we are talking about exceedingly well developed characters with an average of 300 karma under the belt over the last 2 years... We have access to good amounts of funding, and we are fairly well equipped... but even still, our mage only just acquired his Rating 2 Power Focus recently...

As for the FAQ... Mostly an Interpretation thing, and We generally ignore it... there are some good clarifications there, but most do not change how we have been playing the game anyways, so it was pretty useless (the rules are pretty self explanatory, as long as you resist the impulse to read more into the rules than are truly there already)... as for Only a single service at a time, I do not agree with that opinion on the FAQ and neither do many of the other people I know who play Shadowrun... SO your mileage may vary with the FAQ...

Hopefully, I have laid to rest your questions... any other, pelase feel free to inquire and hopefully i will be able to answer your questions...

WE do not tend to use Houserules (Though we are considering a change to test a more dynamic combat system, we will see how that works out), and the games run pretty standard to the rules found in the SR4A Core Book and the Supplementsal Core Books... Though I can bend the rules with the best of them, we also tend to stay away from excessive builds (you know the ones) and keep our DP ranges in the 10-15 range for the most part... Oh, and our GM is outstanding... just the right blend of everything that makes a really exceptional Game Master (Damned if he did not have the Johnson screw us out of our big payoff from the Zero Zone too (though in all fairness we are not quitre done just yet), but what the hell, those are the risks we take)... Just so you know where I am coming from at least...

It has been my privelege Falconer...

Keep the Faith

[Falconer]

I see what you're saying... I'm the opposite... almost all my play experience w/ SR has involved behing the party's magical support going all the way back to SR1.

Generally force 2 or 3 sustaining foci are nearly useless and not worth the karma to bind. Some of the other more esoteric foci can be usefull at low force 2 or 3 though... (such as a shielding focus, wepaon focus, power focus..)
Combat spells: no combat spells need sustained
Detection spells: this is about only area they can be reasonably usefull
Health spells: All health spells you'll want will generally be cast at least force 4+ to get enough hits or initial force to be usable (increase ref, increase attribute)
Illusion: If you're planning on bypassing OR5 drones... you'll need force 5 w/ 5 hits. Otherwise force 3 can be usable against dumb sensors.. and generally usefull against normal observers... although some people will see through, especially w/ counterspelling.
Manipulation: these you really want at high force... levitate works but you're pretty damn slow at low force & hits. Barriers... hits == strength... a barrier collapses if it is penetrated unlike a ward (which will regenerate), other manipulations have to worry about object resistance. Mental manipulations... those are a subject unto themselves (one I dislike). About only spell I can think of in manipulation being usefull at low force would be mana static... (which is a double edged sword to the focus itself).

Generally given normal urban visibility conditions... if it's dark... switching to astral perception if I'm not already using it (full mage always has this option) eliminates it... since astral has weird lighting. Living things glow against a dull background... only really a problem if you're looking for someone in a crowd of other auras. Care must be taken to avoid the astral attack pack though... best handled by having an astral spirit tagging along with you awaiting orders.


My experience is generally... if I can get say 4 or 5 well picked spells up on me... I turn into an absolute combat monster. It's like the worst of both worlds... the mage is almost a street sam in terms of actions and durability w/ the buffs, and he's like a rigger in his army of spirits. Using spirits for spells is troublesome, as then every time you have to pass through a ward you need to spend *two* services per spirit... one to have it materialize inside the ward then another to have it recast the spell (with variable effectiveness). Other spells like increase ref... you're better off keeping a force 4 or 5 health sustaining focus on hand so you can recast as needed (or using your summoned on the fly spirit for... since it's easily to dismiss him and summon a new one for more services).

Generally bound spirits... care is taken to use edge to get cost effectiveness... normally 1 or 2 points spent on the summoning/binding tests.

That's just to relate my experience.


Since you rig so much... I'd appreciate you checking what I wrote in the Vehicle Stuff AR vs. VR thread. I've been trying to learn more about it.

[Shinobi Killfist]

This does seem really abusive. It looks like a power meant for adepts but they forgot there was this thing called mystic adepts. But maybe I am just sensitive since I think mages of all stripes are overpowered in SR.

[Nifft]

This does seem really abusive. It looks like a power meant for adepts but they forgot there was this thing called mystic adepts. But maybe I am just sensitive since I think mages of all stripes are overpowered in SR.

Well, if you read the developer posts in this thread, you'll see that it was actually intended to work with Living Focus. Sustaining a spell without penalty is exactly what it was designed to do, so I think you're a bit off in imagining that the Mystic Adept's use of the power is a design flaw.

The only flaw seems to be that some people interpret six -1 penalties as a single -6 penalty.

- - -

Anyway. I guess just clearing up that sustaining each spell is a separate penalty is enough to fix Heightened Concentration.

Is it just me, or does Living Focus seem a bit lackluster? It costs a whole power point. I'm tempted to cut its price to 0.5 pp, or keep the price the same but allow it to sustain one spell for free (with no -2 penalty).

Thoughts? Thanks, -- N

[Karoline]

Is it just me, or does Living Focus seem a bit lackluster? It costs a whole power point. I'm tempted to cut its price to 0.5 pp, or keep the price the same but allow it to sustain one spell for free (with no -2 penalty).

Thoughts? Thanks, -- N

Agreed. I've never seen this actually used in any character build that I've seen, and I've never really considered it for any that I've ever made. It is exceptionally expensive for 'I get to transfer the penalty from the mage to myself'. I mean maybe if the adept could combine this with sustaining foci it might be halfway decent, but it still relies heavily on having a mage in your group that has the right spells to help you out at all. And while some mages will have such spells, not all will.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I see what you're saying... I'm the opposite... almost all my play experience w/ SR has involved behing the party's magical support going all the way back to SR1.

Generally force 2 or 3 sustaining foci are nearly useless and not worth the karma to bind. Some of the other more esoteric foci can be usefull at low force 2 or 3 though... (such as a shielding focus, wepaon focus, power focus..)
Combat spells: no combat spells need sustained
Detection spells: this is about only area they can be reasonably usefull
Health spells: All health spells you'll want will generally be cast at least force 4+ to get enough hits or initial force to be usable (increase ref, increase attribute)
Illusion: If you're planning on bypassing OR5 drones... you'll need force 5 w/ 5 hits. Otherwise force 3 can be usable against dumb sensors.. and generally usefull against normal observers... although some people will see through, especially w/ counterspelling.
Manipulation: these you really want at high force... levitate works but you're pretty damn slow at low force & hits. Barriers... hits == strength... a barrier collapses if it is penetrated unlike a ward (which will regenerate), other manipulations have to worry about object resistance. Mental manipulations... those are a subject unto themselves (one I dislike). About only spell I can think of in manipulation being usefull at low force would be mana static... (which is a double edged sword to the focus itself).

Generally given normal urban visibility conditions... if it's dark... switching to astral perception if I'm not already using it (full mage always has this option) eliminates it... since astral has weird lighting. Living things glow against a dull background... only really a problem if you're looking for someone in a crowd of other auras. Care must be taken to avoid the astral attack pack though... best handled by having an astral spirit tagging along with you awaiting orders.


My experience is generally... if I can get say 4 or 5 well picked spells up on me... I turn into an absolute combat monster. It's like the worst of both worlds... the mage is almost a street sam in terms of actions and durability w/ the buffs, and he's like a rigger in his army of spirits. Using spirits for spells is troublesome, as then every time you have to pass through a ward you need to spend *two* services per spirit... one to have it materialize inside the ward then another to have it recast the spell (with variable effectiveness). Other spells like increase ref... you're better off keeping a force 4 or 5 health sustaining focus on hand so you can recast as needed (or using your summoned on the fly spirit for... since it's easily to dismiss him and summon a new one for more services).

Generally bound spirits... care is taken to use edge to get cost effectiveness... normally 1 or 2 points spent on the summoning/binding tests.

That's just to relate my experience.


Since you rig so much... I'd appreciate you checking what I wrote in the Vehicle Stuff AR vs. VR thread. I've been trying to learn more about it.

Hey, it is all good Falconer... Makes a lot of sense to me...

I will try to address the AR vs VR Vehicle Stuff when I get a chance...

Keep the Faith...

[pbangarth]

Agreed. I've never seen this actually used in any character build that I've seen, and I've never really considered it for any that I've ever made. It is exceptionally expensive for 'I get to transfer the penalty from the mage to myself'. I mean maybe if the adept could combine this with sustaining foci it might be halfway decent, but it still relies heavily on having a mage in your group that has the right spells to help you out at all. And while some mages will have such spells, not all will.

I actually played an adept here on DS (Professor - until the campaign died) who has both Living Focus and Heightened Concentration.

His thinking (ie. my thinking) is that the Living Focus allows the adept to have a much wider variety of functions than he could buy for himself, as long as the party has at least one magician. And all magicians in the shadows have spells that are useful in the shadows, so ipso facto Professor would have some, too. I have never played in an SR game that did not have at least one magician. He has his skills which come mostly from his former academic life, and he took Living Focus to allow him to keep up with the hardened shadowrunners more easily.

Heightened Concentration came from that earlier academic life, but certainly applies itself to the shadows in the way Ancient History suggests. Not just for sustained spells but many other uses as well, as has been pointed out by others.

I too steadfastly deny that multiple sustained spells add their penalties into one penalty. Each is a separate distraction.