Rules Pitfalls, What things should GMs and Players watch out for? Options

[BobChuck]

I'm looking for what bits and pieces of rules are difficult, confusing, or otherwise controversial.

I am NOT looking for a debate on any of these; that's a separate topic. Actually, a whole bunch of separate topics. Basically, I am looking for a list of all the things that can cause lengthy passionate Rules Discussions at the drop of a hat.

I've picked up on a few so far:

Control Thoughts - problematic spell that is sometimes banned by GMs. Control Actions is significantly less broken but can lead to some of the same issues.

Shapechange - when combined with Trolls and high body, can lead to min-maxed characters that taste strongly of cheese.

Cyber/Bioware - exactly what counts an "accessory" (and multiplied) and what is just added on is unclear in the rules (meaning clear enough to lead to a ridiculous conclusion for high-end ware, but vague enough for said absurd conclusion to result in questioning the rule as a whole), so is hotly debated.

Biodrones - Can they be "hacked"? If so, how, and how does one protect them? Can a person be rigged as a biodrone? Not all that controversial (because it is very uncommon), but very complicated and unclear.

That's all I've got so far. Please post any additional ones that you think new players should be aware of. Please post in as neutral a manner as possible, because this thread is by definition going to contain a lot of flame bait. That's the point - identify them quickly so they can be nipped in the bud before they catch fire at the table.

[The Grue Master]

Stick 'n' Shock ammo is often banned or controlled. Not sure if it's controversial or not, just rather powerful. I include Shock Gloves in the same category.

[Belvidere]

Stick 'n' Shock ammo is often banned or controlled. Not sure if it's controversial or not, just rather powerful. I include Shock Gloves in the same category.

The truly painful use of them is in burst fire and full auto weapons. When in pistol they aren't much different than a taser, except a longer range.

[Lanlaorn]

Shapechange - when combined with Trolls and high body, can lead to min-maxed characters that taste strongly of cheese.

I think the FAQ explicitly said that you can choose Human as a "critter", but only human. Elves, Trolls, Orks, and Dwarves would be considered paranormal critters and thus prohibited by the spell's rules.

That said, if you pick Human it's still a really efficient way to get physical stats up compared to the Improved Attribute line. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing but who knows.

[BobChuck]

Aha, thanks for reminding me. I forgot about

Stick N Shock: controversial ammo, for a number of reasons. Technically capable of harming spirits, which is considered ridiculous by some. Also, overpowered in general when used in anything with autofire capability. Most common solution it to define it as "Shotgun only", or more generously, "shotgun and small arms only".

Spirits: powerful in general, significantly better than the "tech" equivalent of drones. Most problematic ability is "Invulnerability to Normal Weapons", which functions as hardened armor at Force x2 against any non-magical attack; elemental attacks half this value (which is why Stick and Shock is effective). There is no single widely accepted solution to this problem; halving the armor in general (to just Force) is perhaps slightly more common than other ideas.

I think the FAQ explicitly said that you can choose Human as a "critter", but only human. Elves, Trolls, Orks, and Dwarves would be considered paranormal critters and thus prohibited by the spell's rules.

That said, if you pick Human it's still a really efficient way to get physical stats up compared to the Improved Attribute line. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing but who knows.

I was referring to a Troll who uses this spell plus his high body to turn into truly absurd creatures. There's a Troll/Dragon shapeshifter of some kind a few pages down, though I don't know precisely how it works. Might have been through the adept version of the power.

[Cabral]

There is no adept version of shapeshift. Perhaps you are thinking of the Drake quality from Runner's Companion?

[Lanlaorn]

That's not the Shapechange spell, or even regular shapeshifting, that's being a Drake. All those metatypes are inherently somewhat overpowered really (IMO), but that's what you're paying the huge BP/Karma costs for.

I don't really have any experience playing with animal forms, nor have given it much thought, but upon cursory inspection losing all your armor, weapons and 'ware is a fairly signficant drawback that balances the whole thing. Sure you can make a combat monster creature of some kind, but that's not really saying much.

[TommyTwoToes]

Technomancers in general are debated a bit.

[Belvidere]

Technomancers in general are debated a bit.

The only time I see them as a problem is when they're the only resonance based... anything in the campaign. But I do know that alot of people have problems with them.

[BobChuck]

Can you elaborate? That's the last section of the book that I really haven't delved into yet (wel, that and actually running games).

Why are technomancers problematic or controversial? Which parts of thier mechanics create the most problems?

[Belvidere]

Can you elaborate? That's the last section of the book that I really haven't delved into yet (wel, that and actually running games).

Why are technomancers problematic or controversial? Which parts of thier mechanics create the most problems?

They tend to be able to get much higher dice pools when it comes to hacking/cybercombat then anyone relying on gear(A normal hacker). Munchkined correctly they can become matrix gods. Plus they have sprites just to make things even easier for them via matrix. But the drawback to playing one is you will probably always be on matrix support. Its easy to make a hacker who can go in the meat, it requires a serious amount of munchkinism to make a technomancer who's still good at hacking and can go in the meat.

[Medicineman]

the HMHVV is deadly by RAW (deadly meaning you can throw away your char if infected)

Heightened Position Combat Modifiers (especially with Trolls and Dwarfes)
Climbing Claws modifier (+2 Total or +8 ?)
these were some of our Rules Pitfalls

He who dances with Pitfall Harry
Medicineman

[LurkerOutThere]

Actually in mind mind stick and shock is at it's most broken in small arms where it is staging damage up. Ammo that stages my hammeril from 4 to 6 and is resisted with half armor? Yes please. I just pretend it doesn't exist, actually makes taking people alive require specialized tactics again.

The infection rules are deadly by raw.

I have not found technomancers to be particularly troublesome, the more they specialize the more their vulnerable.

The armor stacking rules are wonky especially with things like form fitting body armor in the mix.

Some wonky things can be done when you heal drain, can quickly lead to some really bottomless casters.

Honestly the best defense against rules cheesedickery is just having a quick talk with your players, you could go through a long document on house rules or you could just hold veto power on character creation and encourage them to take less min maxed options. Remind them that your not really their enemy and if they don't game the system, you won't do so either.

It's for this reason that my home game on Thursday nights plays vastly different from my missions game on Sunday.

[TommyTwoToes]

They tend to be able to get much higher dice pools when it comes to hacking/cybercombat then anyone relying on gear(A normal hacker). Munchkined correctly they can become matrix gods. Plus they have sprites just to make things even easier for them via matrix. But the drawback to playing one is you will probably always be on matrix support. Its easy to make a hacker who can go in the meat, it requires a serious amount of munchkinism to make a technomancer who's still good at hacking and can go in the meat.

And when using unwired.... There is an echo that gives you pseudo skillwires, so you can be threading your own skillwires so you have very available skill in the game.

Threading extra stealth rating means you never get seen

Sprites (which are analogous <God my spelling is aweful> to spirits) cost no money, just time.

Unhackable node (your own head). Where you can run a Tac Net, which becomes roughly unhackable.

No program limit.

[Yerameyahu]

TMs are still very one-trick and very Karma-intensive. Not unplayable, no, and great at their speciality, yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[BobChuck]

The point is, Technomancers are clearly controversial, as evidenced by this discussion. Thank you for the information (and demonstration (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) ).

What else?

[Johnny B. Good]

Shapeshifters, AIs, and free spirit PCs. The rules/stats could have been done a LOT better. Shapeshifters are either too good or too terrible, notables being the Wolf Shifter being worst (Huge waste of BP, not including qualities you lose 65 BP) and Jaguar being best at a net gain of 5BP from stats alone, does not include qualities like regeneration. Bear shifter is better if you're going to be a bruiser, 30 BP gain from stats plus regeneration, +1 reach and +1 natural armor. He does have some nasty caps on the mental stats though. But really, if you're going to break the game and make a bear you may as well make him an adept so he can burrow through walls at walking speed, too.

Free spirits are just wonky, especially for upgrading stats. I understand it none.

AIs can be neat, but they're rather limited in scope.

And to top it off, all of these are distinctly non-metahooman, meaning if you want to play one you're going to have to think like one.

In short: Hurrr you're a bear.

[Yerameyahu]

I think Surprise is a messy little area.

[D2F]

I have not found technomancers to be particularly troublesome, the more they specialize the more their vulnerable.

You can Build a Technomancer with points of Essence worth of Cyber/Bio and still have 2 Resonance at the start of play, without paying a single BP to increase your resonance. I think that's pretty controversial.

[The Grue Master]

I think Surprise is a messy little area.

Definitely not trying to troll here, I'm genuinely curious what your beef with Surprise could be?

[LurkerOutThere]

Mages are pretty controversial, possession mages doubly so. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[DireRadiant]

You can Build a Technomancer with points of Essence worth of Cyber/Bio and still have 2 Resonance at the start of play, without paying a single BP to increase your resonance. I think that's pretty controversial.

Interesting. I know buying Technomancer Positive Quality gives you 1 resonance to start with. I'm curious where the other comes from. And then how you get Cyber or Bioware without losing essence and resonance unless you deliberately use a non standard order of operations. Which you could do exactly the same with Mages. And since you can do that with Mages, then it's not inherently a TM build, but any build.

[Yerameyahu]

The rules are a little schizophrenic about whether you get 'passive' Defense benefits (Cover, movement, etc.), and then the rules for who surprises whom, in and out of combat, and what actions you can take, are just a mess. Two pages in SR4A contradict about whether you can drop prone or not, what constitutes an ambush is basically up to the GM (which is fine), and overall it's simply more complicated than necessary. I'm not saying it's a big deal, but it's in the same ballpark as some of the above areas.

I'm curious about this 2 Res Techno claim as well. Smells like deliberate misreading.

[The Grue Master]

The rules are a little schizophrenic about whether you get 'passive' Defense benefits (Cover, movement, etc.), and then the rules for who surprises whom, in and out of combat, and what actions you can take, are just a mess. Two pages in SR4A contradict about whether you can drop prone or not, what constitutes an ambush is basically up to the GM (which is fine), and overall it's simply more complicated than necessary. I'm not saying it's a big deal, but it's in the same ballpark as some of the above areas.

I shall go read the rules again; this is news to me.

[D2F]

Interesting. I know buying Technomancer Positive Quality gives you 1 resonance to start with. I'm curious where the other comes from. And then how you get Cyber or Bioware without losing essence and resonance unless you deliberately use a non standard order of operations. Which you could do exactly the same with Mages. And since you can do that with Mages, then it's not inherently a TM build, but any build.

5 BP for the Technomancer Quality -> Resonance 1
4 Essence points worth of Bioware/Cyberware -> Resonance -3
[Start of play]
Improve Resonance from -3 to -2: 10 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -2 to -1: 5 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -1 to 0: no cost
Improve Resonance from 0 to 1: 5 Karma cost
Improve Resonance from 1 to 2: 10 Karma cost

Final Resonance Rating: 2
net cost: 0 Karma

[tete]

My tip

Make sure all the PCs understand how effective Edge is and try to keep them near the same Edge scores (within 3 or so). Unless there character concept is lucky or unlucky. Extreme group edges tend to be problematic in terms of fun for everyone.

[tete]

double post

[The Grue Master]

5 BP for the Technomancer Quality -> Resonance 1
4 Essence points worth of Bioware/Cyberware -> Resonance -3
[Start of play]
Improve Resonance from -3 to -2: 10 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -2 to -1: 5 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -1 to 0: no cost
Improve Resonance from 0 to 1: 5 Karma cost
Improve Resonance from 1 to 2: 10 Karma cost

Final Resonance Rating: 2
net cost: 0 Karma

There is no such thing as negative Resonance, you just have zero resonance. As such, you can't gain karma just by increasing your negative attribute.

[D2F]

There is no such thing as negative Resonance, you just have zero resonance. As such, you can't gain karma just by increasing your negative attribute.

You have a rules quote for that? I couldn't find one.

[Caadium]

5 BP for the Technomancer Quality -> Resonance 1
4 Essence points worth of Bioware/Cyberware -> Resonance -3
[Start of play]
Improve Resonance from -3 to -2: 10 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -2 to -1: 5 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -1 to 0: no cost
Improve Resonance from 0 to 1: 5 Karma cost
Improve Resonance from 1 to 2: 10 Karma cost

Final Resonance Rating: 2
net cost: 0 Karma

Sorry to say, but it doesn't work that way. If you ever have your magic or resonance reduced to 0 or lower, then you lose the associated quality (in this case resonance). You never get bonus karma for dropping a stat into the negatives. That character is an EX-Technomancer.

[Yerameyahu]

Don't be a child, D2F. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[The Grue Master]

You have a rules quote for that? I couldn't find one.

There is a distinct lack of rules about this in the resonance, magic and attributes sections of the book. I'm still reading to find something. It's unfortunate that they never say 'attributes can not be reduced below zero' in the game concepts section that relates to attributes.

[D2F]

Sorry to say, but it doesn't work that way. If you ever have your magic or resonance reduced to 0 or lower, then you lose the associated quality (in this case resonance). You never get bonus karma for dropping a stat into the negatives. That character is an EX-Technomancer.

Actually, while that is true for the magic attribute, there is no such rule for the resonance attribute.

Don't be a child, D2F. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Hey, I am not saying I am in favor of interpreting the rule that way. The Thread is about possible rule pitfalls. I just pointed one out.

There is a distinct lack of rules about this in the resonance, magic and attributes sections of the book. I'm still reading to find something. It's unfortunate that they never say 'attributes can not be reduced below zero' in the game concepts section that relates to attributes.

I hear ya! It makes perfect sense to assume that there shouldn't be a negative attribute score in SR. What would a negative attribute score even mean? Unfortunately, there is no rule that says otherwise, so on a purely technical level, negative attributes exist. I'd houserule it.

[Yerameyahu]

Heh. There's no rule that says they do exist, either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Sigh.

[D2F]

Heh. There's no rule that says they do exist, either. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) Sigh.

The only rules in that regard is: loss of resonance points through augmentations. What happens if you have 1 apple and you lose 4? You owe 3.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[biccat]

5 BP for the Technomancer Quality -> Resonance 1
4 Essence points worth of Bioware/Cyberware -> Resonance -3
[Start of play]
Improve Resonance from -3 to -2: 10 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -2 to -1: 5 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -1 to 0: no cost
Improve Resonance from 0 to 1: 5 Karma cost
Improve Resonance from 1 to 2: 10 Karma cost

Final Resonance Rating: 2
net cost: 0 Karma

Why not take 6 essence points (or 5.01) of bio/cyberware to get Resonance at -5? Then improve it to 5 using the same logic?

It doesn't appear from the rules that cyberware actually adjusts your MAXIMUM resonance, just your current resonance.

I mean, as long as we're being absurd.

[biccat]

I hear ya! It makes perfect sense to assume that there shouldn't be a negative attribute score in SR. What would a negative attribute score even mean? Unfortunately, there is no rule that says otherwise, so on a purely technical level, negative attributes exist. I'd houserule it.

Also, on page 82 of SR4A, see the following (emphasis added):

As mentioned in Game Concepts, p. 40, normal attributes range between 1 and 6. A character’s metatype may adjust the maximums higher or lower. Augmentation (either through technology or magic) can allow a character to exceed their metatype maximum to a certain point.

It seems that your "normal attributes" can't be less than 1. Since essence, magic, and resonance are specifically exempted, I think that this would limit your characters physical and mental stats to a minimum of 1.

[D2F]

Also, on page 82 of SR4A, see the following (emphasis added):

It seems that your "normal attributes" can't be less than 1. Since essence, magic, and resonance are specifically exempted, I think that this would limit your characters physical and mental stats to a minimum of 1.

Great point and good find. Thanks, biccat. Still doesn't solve the resonance problem, though.

Why not take 6 essence points (or 5.01) of bio/cyberware to get Resonance at -5? Then improve it to 5 using the same logic?

It doesn't appear from the rules that cyberware actually adjusts your MAXIMUM resonance, just your current resonance.

I mean, as long as we're being absurd.

Another nice find! You're absoluetly correct. And yes, it is absurd (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[The Grue Master]

Why not take 6 essence points (or 5.01) of bio/cyberware to get Resonance at -5? Then improve it to 5 using the same logic?

It doesn't appear from the rules that cyberware actually adjusts your MAXIMUM resonance, just your current resonance.

I mean, as long as we're being absurd.

The reason you don't do that is because you don't just lose Resonance, you also lose Natural Maximum Resonance. Having -5 from Cyber/Bio would result in a min and max Resonance of 1, by this logic. Then, you'd have to initiate just to get past one point, hence the lack of free resonance.

Another thing, I've always considered magic lost due to essence degradation to be effective magic loss, not actual loss. Thus, when raising the stat, you pay the cost of what your magic/resonance would have been, if not for the cyberware. I'm not sure if there is anything in the rules to back this up, but I haven't ever thought of it as a house rule until now. Ring any bells for anyone?

Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties
if they have an Essence lower than 6. For each point or partial
point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic
or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1. p68

Added quote for reference.

[D2F]

The reason you don't do that is because you don't just lose Resonance, you also lose Natural Maximum Resonance. Having -5 from Cyber/Bio would result in a min and max Resonance of 1, by this logic. Then, you'd have to initiate just to get past one point, hence the lack of free resonance.

Another thing, I've always considered magic lost due to essence degradation to be effective magic loss, not actual loss. Thus, when raising the stat, you pay the cost of what your magic/resonance would have been, if not for the cyberware. I'm not sure if there is anything in the rules to back this up, but I haven't ever thought of it as a house rule until now. Ring any bells for anyone?


Added quote for reference.

Nice! Thanks, TGM!

[Wasabi]

And when using unwired.... There is an echo that gives you pseudo skillwires, so you can be threading your own skillwires so you have very available skill in the game.

Since it requires a skillsoft to be emulated you cannot create a skillsoft CF via threading although increasing one could work. The Emulation rule does not say its optional so it blocks this. (probably by design)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

5 BP for the Technomancer Quality -> Resonance 1
4 Essence points worth of Bioware/Cyberware -> Resonance -3
[Start of play]
Improve Resonance from -3 to -2: 10 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -2 to -1: 5 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -1 to 0: no cost
Improve Resonance from 0 to 1: 5 Karma cost
Improve Resonance from 1 to 2: 10 Karma cost

Final Resonance Rating: 2
net cost: 0 Karma

You cannot go below 0 Resonance... if you ever go to 0 Resonance, you lose all Resonance ability and can never raise it again...

Just like Magic...

Edit: Which has apparently already been said... Oh Well...

Keep the Faith

[Glyph]

Empathy software and emotitoys are controversial because they can give a PC a cheap, easy boost of +6 to social dice pools. Even fairly liberal GMs tend to nerf or ban it.

Possession traditions can be a minefield if you let the mage use a liberal definition of what counts as a "service".

Spells - control manipulations are one pitfall that has been mentioned. The other is the combo of direct combat spells and overcasting, especially if it is a build that can soak the physical Drain reliably.

[Yerameyahu]

Late, but if you have 1 apple, you can only lose 1. There's no owing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[nemafow]

How about Skillsofts emulating knowledge skills that couldn't possibly be emulated? I cannot for the life of my put an example forward but its something that has always bugged me... Feel free to put an example in if you know one, maybe it will get my brain working today.

[Yerameyahu]

I think I'll need an example to even know what you mean. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cabral]

Maybe, you're thinking about a knowledge skill for a Magic-linked skill? However, when you burnout, your active magic skills become knowledge skills as suddenly you know about spellcasting, not how to ...

I would think that would be fine as a Knowsoft....

[nemafow]

Gah, I swear someone must know what I mean, Ive seen it mentioned on DS as well. Maybe it will come to me and I'll give an example, till then move along, nothing to see >.>

[Lanlaorn]

No skillsofts explicitly can't give you magic skills, the rules entry literally lists every other skill group and then adds parenthetically no magic or resonance skills just to make damn sure.

Activesofts replicate skills that require physical activity,
including all Combat, Physical, Social, Technical, and Vehicle
skills (but not Magic or Resonance skills). Recording and programming
physical skills is more difficult, so Activesofts are limited in rating.
Activesofts must be accessed with a skillwire system (p. 342); the rating
of the activesoft is limited by the skillwire system’s rating

Considering skillwires have are connected to your brain and muscles I can't really think of any skill they could give you that they logically wouldn't be able to.

[Yerameyahu]

I thought we were talking about Knowledge skills. Which isn't even what skillwires are for. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Honestly, the rules and fluff don't make sense. The wires don't seem to be connected to your muscles at all, just your brain: they work for non-physical skills (despite the quote paragraph), they work in VR, and they include 100% creative tasks.

[nemafow]

Not the perfect example I was looking for (there are better ones if I can only remember), but how about a high level Knowledge softs for say: Gang Territories
Gang Territories change all the time due to wars/wipe outs ect, so unless the soft gets periodic updates, it can't be correct all the time.

[Cabral]

I believe there is a rule for degradation of skillsofts in Unwired unless legal (over-the-matrix updates from the publisher) or equivalent.

[Mäx]

5 BP for the Technomancer Quality -> Resonance 1
4 Essence points worth of Bioware/Cyberware -> Resonance -3
[Start of play]
Improve Resonance from -3 to -2: 10 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -2 to -1: 5 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -1 to 0: no cost
Improve Resonance from 0 to 1: 5 Karma cost
Improve Resonance from 1 to 2: 10 Karma cost

Final Resonance Rating: 2
net cost: 0 Karma

Congrulations, you just made the most useless technomancer ever, with zero complex forms to start with, this character fill never be an effective at any matrix tasks

[D2F]

Congrulations, you just made the most useless technomancer ever, with zero complex forms to start with, this character fill never be an effective at any matrix tasks

And you think the goal of such a build is to be good in the 'Trix, rather than to get 4IP at no Essence cost?

You cannot go below 0 Resonance... if you ever go to 0 Resonance, you lose all Resonance ability and can never raise it again...

Just like Magic...

Edit: Which has apparently already been said... Oh Well...

Keep the Faith

Find me a quote for that rule. I checked SR4A, and Unwired. There is no such rule for Resonance.

[DireRadiant]

You have a rules quote for that? I couldn't find one.

Not a good argument to use unless you also have a rules quote supporting negative attributes and gaining karma by raising them.

You are just using the fact that going outside the normal boundaries and applying the 5 * New Rating gives you a negative karma value for the Character Improvement cost.

Like I originally said, going outside the normal range of operations in a build is a problem with any character build, not just TMs.

For discussion you might want to look at the effects of a 0 Physical and Mental attribute.

From Decrease Attribute spell
"The target resists the spell using the attribute affected. If the caster
wins, the attribute is reduced by the spell’s net hits. If a Physical attribute
is reduced to 0, the victim is incapacitated or paralyzed. If a Mental
attribute is reduced to 0, the victim stands about mindlessly confused."

[DireRadiant]

And you think the goal of such a build is to be good in the 'Trix, rather than to get 4IP at no Essence cost?



Find me a quote for that rule. I checked SR4A, and Unwired. There is no such rule for Resonance.

I haven't found one, but this bit from latent Technomancer implies you need resonance of at least 1 to be a TM.

"Once the gamemaster had decided that the character’s abilities
have fully manifested, the character gains a Resonance attribute
of 1. If the character has an Essence of less than 6 at this point,
she still receives the Resonance attribute, although her maximum
Resonance is reduced accordingly. If her Essence has dropped
below 1, then she has no chance of ever being a technomancer."

[DireRadiant]

5 BP for the Technomancer Quality -> Resonance 1
4 Essence points worth of Bioware/Cyberware -> Resonance -3
[Start of play]
Improve Resonance from -3 to -2: 10 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -2 to -1: 5 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -1 to 0: no cost
Improve Resonance from 0 to 1: 5 Karma cost
Improve Resonance from 1 to 2: 10 Karma cost

Final Resonance Rating: 2
net cost: 0 Karma

BTW, you forgot all the free karma for all the negative complex forms. While you are at it, you might as well get all your karma for all the other negative karma stuff

[D2F]

Not a good argument to use unless you also have a rules quote supporting negative attributes and gaining karma by raising them.

You are just using the fact that going outside the normal boundaries and applying the 5 * New Rating gives you a negative karma value for the Character Improvement cost.

Like I originally said, going outside the normal range of operations in a build is a problem with any character build, not just TMs.

For discussion you might want to look at the effects of a 0 Physical and Mental attribute.

From Decrease Attribute spell
"The target resists the spell using the attribute affected. If the caster
wins, the attribute is reduced by the spell’s net hits. If a Physical attribute
is reduced to 0, the victim is incapacitated or paralyzed. If a Mental
attribute is reduced to 0, the victim stands about mindlessly confused."

All that gives you is a rule that is not applicable (as it pertains to a particular spell effect) and reducing the problem down to being able to Increase the resonance attribute back to 1 for measly 5 Karma, while still having 4 points worth of Essence in Enhancements. The main problem is that 0 Resonance does not mean you lose your technomancer abilities as opposed to Magic, where it is stated explicitly. Regardless of how you look at it, the rule is still fishy.

I haven't found one, but this bit from latent Technomancer implies you need resonance of at least 1 to be a TM.

"Once the gamemaster had decided that the character’s abilities
have fully manifested, the character gains a Resonance attribute
of 1. If the character has an Essence of less than 6 at this point,
she still receives the Resonance attribute, although her maximum
Resonance is reduced accordingly. If her Essence has dropped
below 1, then she has no chance of ever being a technomancer."

Implications give a hint at intentions. They have no impact on rules, though. While I completely agree with the intention, I am arguing the rule here. After all, this thread IS about rule pitfalls.

BTW, you forgot all the free karma for all the negative complex forms. While you are at it, you might as well get all your karma for all the other negative karma stuff

No Complex forms were purchased in that excemple. What other "negative karma stuff"?

[Yerameyahu]

Nope, there's a paragraph that says Resonance works the same as Magic, so it's all implied. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As if we needed it and this weren't all a silly thought experiment.

[D2F]

Nope, there's a paragraph that says Resonance works the same as Magic, so it's all implied. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) As if we needed it and this weren't all a silly thought experiment.

Where? I asked for a rules quote before. Give me one and I am a happy camper!

[Yerameyahu]

I forget. It basically says, 'As Magic, Resonance …'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's not the point. The point is that you don't need one, and neither does anybody else. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Witch]

I'd just like to point out that this thread is about 'Rule Pitfalls', i.e. situations where there is actually a danger of a GM ending up in trouble due to badly written rules. Whatever D2F has been arguing for is something that every GM would ban the instant he heard it, and it is therefore quite irrelevant.

[D2F]

I forget. It basically says, 'As Magic, Resonance …'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) That's not the point. The point is that you don't need one, and neither does anybody else. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

That's not a valid counter, though. If you can't produce it, it doesn't exist. I've been looking for anything like that like crazy, but I couldn't find it, for the life of me. To my knowledge, and unless I see a quote that says otherwise, all that reducing resonance to 0 does it to limit all technomancer skills and abilities to a rating of 0. It doesn't say that you also lose your technomancer abilities.
It does so for Magic, not for Resonance.

If I am wrong and you can show me a oproper rules quote, I'd be very grateful!

I'd just like to point out that this thread is about 'Rule Pitfalls', i.e. situations where there is actually a danger of a GM ending up in trouble due to badly written rules. Whatever D2F has been arguing for is something that every GM would ban the instant he heard it, and it is therefore quite irrelevant.

I praise your omniscience, to know what every GM would do....

[Johnny B. Good]

That's not a valid counter, though. If you can't produce it, it doesn't exist. I've been looking for anything like that like crazy, but I couldn't find it, for the life of me. To my knowledge, and unless I see a quote that says otherwise, all that reducing resonance to 0 does it to limit all technomancer skills and abilities to a rating of 0. It doesn't say that you also lose your technomancer abilities.
It does so for Magic, not for Resonance.

If I am wrong and you can show me a oproper rules quote, I'd be very grateful!


I praise your omniscience, to know what every GM would do....

If I were GM I'd make you take the common sense quality.

[Yerameyahu]

I don't have to produce it, because I don't care. Not even a tiny bit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But, it's there, cuz I read it.

Every GM in history, present, and future, did ban, is banning, and will ban it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Omniscience IS nice.

[BobChuck]

I'm going to side with Yerameyahu, here: saying "Resonance works like Magic" just makes sense. Actually trying to argue that the zero Karma Technomancer build is legit makes no sense at all, even in a missions game. It's absurd.

Congratulations, you found a hole in the rules that is really easy to close by making a basic logical assumption. Have a cookie.

[D2F]

I don't have to produce it, because I don't care. Not even a tiny bit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) But, it's there, cuz I read it.

Every GM in history, present, and future, did ban, is banning, and will ban it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) Omniscience IS nice.

1.) Of course you don't HAVE to produce it. Neither would I want to force you (as if I even could). I was ASKING you to produce because I would like to read it for myself, to verify your claim. Which, to this point is nothing but conjecture.
2.) It's not "there because you read". You think you know you read it. Dissonance effects are a bitch. aren't they?
3.) Your assumption about omnisciene is unproven, unproveable and worthless. Hell, I am inclined to allow it, just to prove you wrong!

I'm going to side with Yerameyahu, here: saying "Resonance works like Magic" just makes sense. Actually trying to argue that the zero Karma Technomancer build is legit makes no sense at all, even in a missions game. It's absurd.

Congratulations, you found a hole in the rules that is really easy to close by making a basic logical assumption. Have a cookie.

Is there any particular reason you are patronizing me? The build would be legit. It would also be absurd. I would not allow it. Whether or not I or you would allow it is completely irrelevant, though. How about you simply say "yes, D2F, you are right" unless you can actually prove me wrong, instead of turning to personal insults?

[Witch]

I praise your omniscience, to know what every GM would do....

In cases as these, I take the 'reasonable person' standard. One doesn't need to be omniscient to apply this. Your rules wrangling isn't going to convince anybody. In some cases, rules lawyering can convince people. This isn't one of those.

[Mäx]

And you think the goal of such a build is to be good in the 'Trix, rather than to get 4IP at no Essence cost?

LOL and after how many points of karma is that.
I can do the same at chargen quite easily.

And hes patronizing you cos you act like a 5 year old,i'm sorry to say that but you really do.

And man i could maybe understand you if you were rules lawyering for a munching build, but this isn't even something that will ever be a desand character.

[Doc Chase]

I suggest the task at hand be tabled until the hymnals can be consulted, rather than have this useful thread degenerate into poo-flinging.

It stinks, even on the Internet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Lansdren]

I'm going to say one thing and one thing only


"dont feed the trolls"

Even those if you dont think your trolling we can all see the horns and dermal deposits

[D2F]

In cases as these, I take the 'reasonable person' standard. One doesn't need to be omniscient to apply this. Your rules wrangling isn't going to convince anybody. In some cases, rules lawyering can convince people. This isn't one of those.

I am not trying to convince anyone. Why do you think I would?

And hes patronizing you cos you act like a 5 year old,i'm sorry to say that but you really do.

Because I ask for an actual rules quote rather than simply kowtowing to conjecture? Because I think the possible rule interpretation is absurd? Because I answered a request that has since been barraged with no actual counter-argument (with the sole exception of negative attribute values, which is a draw)? Because I questioned the nescessity for personal attacks?

Explain yourself! How am I "acting like a 5 year old"?

This is ridiculous! You can't prove me wrong and instead of simply saying "You're right, D2F, that possible, yet legal exploit is stupid", you resort to patronizing and personal attacks. And I don't even expected to be right. I don't even WANT to be right, because I think that rules exploit is retarded, which is why I was asking so often about a rules quote that would prove me wrong. And your answer to that are personal attacks? And you are calling ME "acting like a 5 year old"?

[Johnny B. Good]

I am not trying to convince anyone. Why do you think I would?


Because I ask for an actual rules quote rather than simply kowtowing to conjecture? Because I think the possible rule interpretation is absurd? Because I answered a request that has since been barraged with no actual counter-argument (with the sole exception of negative attribute values, which is a draw)? Because I questioned the nescessity for personal attacks?

Explain yourself! How am I "acting like a 5 year old"?

This is ridiculous! You can't prove me wrong and instead of simply saying "You're right, D2F, that possible, yet legal exploit is stupid", you resort to patronizing and personal attacks. And I don't even expected to be right. I don't even WANT to be right, because I think that rules exploit is retarded, which is why I was asking so often about a rules quote that would prove me wrong. And your answer to that are personal attacks? And you are calling ME "acting like a 5 year old"?

Sick and tired of this, don't care, moving on please.

So guys: Hardened armor. Controversial, yes?

[Doc Chase]

Sick and tired of this, don't care, moving on please.

So guys: Hardened armor. Controversial, yes?

It just means you need a nuclear bunker buster instead of your run-of-the-mill.

[Yerameyahu]

It's not that I don't understand your point, D2F, that RAW is occasionally (accidentally, meaninglessly) wrong. After all, you're the crazy person who argued contacts block Astral Perception. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I just know how far to take a joke.

[D2F]

It's not that I don't understand your point, D2F, that RAW is occasionally (accidentally, meaninglessly) wrong. After all, you're the crazy person who argued contacts block Astral Perception. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) I just know how far to take a joke.

Yeah, I remember that (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

This time it's not a joke, though. I wouldn't even be arguing, if I hadn't been asked for an excemple and subsequently attacked after providing one. I am not even DEFENDING the exploit. I said repeatedly that I find it absurd. Yet, I am labeled a troll, I am patroniized and I am personally attacked. Neither of which by you, mind you. As far as I am concerned, we can all drop the argument. I still expect an apology or an explanation for the personal attacks, though.

[Saint Sithney]

TMs are still very one-trick and very Karma-intensive. Not unplayable, no, and great at their speciality, yes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

A starting Dronomancer can thread his Command CF up to 12. Command takes the place of any attribute used when doing tasks through RC (not jumped in) operation, other than perception. The Tutor Sprite (which Dronomancers can naturally access) can add half his level as an equivalent skillsoft to any technical or knowledge test. In addition to that, the aid task bonus can be used as well. So, a starting Dronomancer can whip up a few R6 sprites, register them, and then use them to roll 17 (for defaulted actions) to 21 dice (on technical skills) for pretty much any task in game which one could accomplish by Remote Operation. So, shooting a mounted gun with gunnery or a regular weapon in the hands of a droid becomes just as easy as if a Street Sam were doing it. Infiltration? Hits are limited by handling+piloting skill, but you're still throwing 17 dice with no training, so he can out ninja a ghost, just using a joystick.

Point is, 'Mancers are everywhere they want to be.

[nemafow]

I am NOT looking for a debate on any of these; that's a separate topic. Actually, a whole bunch of separate topics. Basically, I am looking for a list of all the things that can cause lengthy passionate Rules Discussions at the drop of a hat.

So the OP did say he didnt want to debate any of these pitfalls, so can we move off this ridiculous example and contribute something that isnt mindless drivel?

[Shinobi Killfist]

Overcasting, oversummoning.

[Dumori]

5 BP for the Technomancer Quality -> Resonance 1
4 Essence points worth of Bioware/Cyberware -> Resonance -3
[Start of play]
Improve Resonance from -3 to -2: 10 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -2 to -1: 5 Karma gained
Improve Resonance from -1 to 0: no cost
Improve Resonance from 0 to 1: 5 Karma cost
Improve Resonance from 1 to 2: 10 Karma cost

Final Resonance Rating: 2
net cost: 0 Karma

It just stays at 0 thus you burn out so yeah.

[D2F]

It just stays at 0 thus you burn out so yeah.

There is no burnout rule for Technomancers. I mentioned that already. It would be extremely kind of you not to "present" me with "information" that I already explained to be erroneous.

I'm gonna drop it from this point on. I don't even care much about it and I just keep getting flak for something that's not my fault. In case you wondered, why I did reply (again): I get irritated by replies to my posts that contain factually incorrect information.

[Grinder]

Can't we move on? There is nothing in RAW that says so, we know that by now. Jesus.

[D2F]

Can't we move on? There is nothing in RAW that says so, we know that by now. Jesus.

What exactly keeps you from moving on? I am only responding to replies to my posts. Had no one replied to any of them, how would things have unfolded? Don't blame me.

[Yerameyahu]

Like I said Sithney, great at their specialty. Being limited to remote control is exactly what 'specialty' means.

[Grinder]

What exactly keeps you from moving on? I am only responding to replies to my posts. Had no one replied to any of them, how would things have unfolded? Don't blame me.

I'm blaming everyone who replied after it got clear that the quote you demanded doesn't exist. And I'm blaming you for replying over and over again.

[D2F]

I'm blaming everyone who replied after it got clear that the quote you demanded doesn't exist. And I'm blaming you for replying over and over again.

Fair enough. I can accept the responsibility for replying.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*sigh* There is no burnout rule for Technomancers...

Sorry Grinder... Had to do it...


How about this... In the Latent Technomancer description...

"If her essence has dropped below 1, then she has no chance of EVER being a Technomancer"...

Looks like you use the Same rules for a Magician's Magic applied equally to a Technomancer's Resonance...

or how about this one, from the SR4A book... Page 239 under the Topic: Resonance (Paragraph: Implants and Resonance)

"As with Magic, cyberware and bioware limit Resonance "

Seems pretty evident that you treat Resonance Ratings exactly like Magic Ratings. At Less than 1 (Unless Initiated/Submerged) you lose your Abilities completely... Any Initiations/Submersions would allow you to raise your Special Attribute above your cap, and as long as you initiated/Submerged before losing that final point of essence, you could keep your abilities... though with a Maximum for your Special Attribute equal to your Initiation/Submersion Grade, rather than your Essence + Initiation/Submersion Grade.

You can argue that that is not so... but in my opinion (which is supported in at least 2 places that I can find, though not explicitly spelled out in excruciating detail) it IS just like that...

Keep the Faith

[Grinder]

I can accept the responsibility for replying.

Thank you so much very much for taking that burden. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[D2F]

Thank you so much very much for taking that burden. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

At least I made you laugh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[The Grue Master]

Overcasting, oversummoning.

Oh god yes, as a GM this one really cheeses me off. There is nothing more annoying than a magician using edge to oversummon a force 10 spirit that I am now obligated to find a polite way of destroying before it murders most of the facility they're trying to infiltrate. I tend to use house rules capping force on things so that people don't suddenly put pieces into play so much more dangerous than the situations is tailored too.

[Lanlaorn]

Just have the spirit use it's edge on the summoning test as suggested in Street Magic. A Force 10 Spirit has 10 edge so it'd be rolling 20 dice, rerolling 6's. The Mage can likely still win the test with a high base dice pool and rerolling failures, but now he's facing ridiculously seriously drain, 12-14 physical damage.

[rumanchu]

Find me a quote for that rule. I checked SR4A, and Unwired. There is no such rule for Resonance.

SR4A, p.68:

"Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties if they have an Essence lower than 6. For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1. The maximum rating for Magic is 6 + initiation grade (see Initiation, p. 198); for Resonance the maximum rating is 6 + submersion grade (see Submersion, p. 243)." (emphasis mine)

This rule also appears on SR4, p.62.

I can take no credit for this quotation of rules, as it was edited into a reply somewhere on page 2. Coming late to the party gave me the opportunity to notice the reference.

[Saint Sithney]

Overcasting, oversummoning.

Why is Seattle such a powerful setting?











Because the weather's always Overcast.

BADUM-CHISS

[The Grue Master]

But Control Weather is a critter power...?

[D2F]

SR4A, p.68:

"Characters with Magic or Resonance attributes are subject to penalties if they have an Essence lower than 6. For each point or partial point of Essence below 6, the character loses 1 full point from her Magic or Resonance and the maximum for that attribute is reduced by 1. The maximum rating for Magic is 6 + initiation grade (see Initiation, p. 198); for Resonance the maximum rating is 6 + submersion grade (see Submersion, p. 243)." (emphasis mine)

This rule also appears on SR4, p.62.

I can take no credit for this quotation of rules, as it was edited into a reply somewhere on page 2. Coming late to the party gave me the opportunity to notice the reference.

I knew that already. The question was not about reducing the max rating, but Burnout.

Just have the spirit use it's edge on the summoning test as suggested in Street Magic. A Force 10 Spirit has 10 edge so it'd be rolling 20 dice, rerolling 6's. The Mage can likely still win the test with a high base dice pool and rerolling failures, but now he's facing ridiculously seriously drain, 12-14 physical damage.

Just use lagos as your campaign setting. A BC of anywhere between -2 and -5 all over the area will limit overcasting and it's effects dramaticaly =)

[BobChuck]

Oh god yes, as a GM this one really cheeses me off. There is nothing more annoying than a magician using edge to oversummon a force 10 spirit that I am now obligated to find a polite way of destroying before it murders most of the facility they're trying to infiltrate. I tend to use house rules capping force on things so that people don't suddenly put pieces into play so much more dangerous than the situations is tailored too.

This isn't a problem with overcasting, it's not even a problem with oversummoning. It's a problem with spirits in general - they are either way too easy or way too powerful. I'm getting the impression that the GM needs to be very strict on what counts as a service; maybe the stronger the spirit, the stricter the spirit is about what it will do - that makes sense and is how other games with summoning rules have worked, even if it's not how shadowrun technically operates.

[Runner Smurf]

BobChuck -

And now we get to the can of worms that is spirits. I've been wrestling with it in my own game - thank Ghost the mage in the team isn't abusive with his spirit summoning.

I've been considering working on re-jiggering the hardened armor aspect of Immunity to Normal Weapons. Since the hardened armor makes them immune to shots that are less than (or equal to) 2 times their force, you run into a weird problem with spirits of moderate to high force - they are immune to most shots, but if anything gets over their hardened armor, they are pretty much toast.

Consider a force 5 spirit with immunity to normal weapons. Has 5 body, 10 armor. Shot has to do at least 11 damage to affect it. An 11-box attack, rolling 15 dice the average number of hits is 3-4. So it goes from taking between no damage at all to 7-8 boxes of damage. There's next to no middle ground. And from experience, PCs faced with a spirit pull out all the stops, burn a bunch of edge, and get enough hits to flat out kill the spirit in one shot.

It gets worse with higher-force spirits. Force 8 (a serious badass), with 8 body and 16 armor. To pierce the armor you have to get up to 17 boxes. On 24 dice to resist, you have an average of 8 hits, resulting in 9 boxes of damage.

The way the Immunity thing works, it makes the spirits...brittle. I'm not sure how to fix that, or even if I should, but it bothers me.

Oh, and the other thing to keep in mind when dealing with spirits (and sprites) is their insane Edge rating - equal to their Force. Means lots and lots of rerolling (particularly on those defense tests above), and can really bog down the game.

[D2F]

BobChuck -

And now we get to the can of worms that is spirits. I've been wrestling with it in my own game - thank Ghost the mage in the team isn't abusive with his spirit summoning.

I've been considering working on re-jiggering the hardened armor aspect of Immunity to Normal Weapons. Since the hardened armor makes them immune to shots that are less than (or equal to) 2 times their force, you run into a weird problem with spirits of moderate to high force - they are immune to most shots, but if anything gets over their hardened armor, they are pretty much toast.

Consider a force 5 spirit with immunity to normal weapons. Has 5 body, 10 armor. Shot has to do at least 11 damage to affect it. An 11-box attack, rolling 15 dice the average number of hits is 3-4. So it goes from taking between no damage at all to 7-8 boxes of damage. There's next to no middle ground. And from experience, PCs faced with a spirit pull out all the stops, burn a bunch of edge, and get enough hits to flat out kill the spirit in one shot.

It gets worse with higher-force spirits. Force 8 (a serious badass), with 8 body and 16 armor. To pierce the armor you have to get up to 17 boxes. On 24 dice to resist, you have an average of 8 hits, resulting in 9 boxes of damage.

The way the Immunity thing works, it makes the spirits...brittle. I'm not sure how to fix that, or even if I should, but it bothers me.

Oh, and the other thing to keep in mind when dealing with spirits (and sprites) is their insane Edge rating - equal to their Force. Means lots and lots of rerolling (particularly on those defense tests above), and can really bog down the game.

ItNW is still subject to AP. I find that lessens the impact quite a bit.
Also, consider that the higher the Body, the more damage boxes the Spirit has. That F8 Spirit would have 12 Boxes, for excemple, so the 9 boxes of damage wouldn't kill it. There are also other powers, like Concealment that help to avoid the players notice the Spirit in the first place.
Also: 10 damage is not exactly hard to come by. My Troll does that with his bare fists.

[Shinobi Killfist]

This isn't a problem with overcasting, it's not even a problem with oversummoning. It's a problem with spirits in general - they are either way too easy or way too powerful. I'm getting the impression that the GM needs to be very strict on what counts as a service; maybe the stronger the spirit, the stricter the spirit is about what it will do - that makes sense and is how other games with summoning rules have worked, even if it's not how shadowrun technically operates.

Well spirits are a problem in general but at the force 1-3 area they are fine for utility roles, force 4-5 they can stand up fairly well in a fight, above force 6 they are hard to deal with, and even below force 6 some of there powers are a pain in the ass. Things like fear that work on forcex2 vs a single stat just wreck things. Though you can wreck the spirit at lower levels so you at least can fight it.

So while spirits can pose some problems in general it is when they get into the overcast levels of power that they become a real hassle for the GM.

And overcasting causes problems with spells as well, or maybe its better to say the low drain of some spells creates an overcasting problem. I have never understood why they make stun spells easier to resist.(all the way from 1e on) Heck I wouldn't even give a discount for mana spells since willpower is the generally weaker that. If stunball was f/2+3 drain it might get overcast at force 9 a bit less. Not sure about that thanks to the next and tied in issue GMS should look out for.

First Aid. If you want to have lasting damage on the players due to how easy it is to wrack up first aid dice and then have the mage throw a heal spell(not for drain though) you kind of have to knock the players into death door land. A serious wound(6 boxes) will not be there for the next encounter.

[Shinobi Killfist]

ItNW is still subject to AP. I find that lessens the impact quite a bit.
Also, consider that the higher the Body, the more damage boxes the Spirit has. That F8 Spirit would have 12 Boxes, for excemple, so the 9 boxes of damage wouldn't kill it. There are also other powers, like Concealment that help to avoid the players notice the Spirit in the first place.
Also: 10 damage is not exactly hard to come by. My Troll does that with his bare fists.

Sure but for many players and more importantly sec forces 10 boxes is hard to come by. They have to pull out the APDS or other issue mentioned stick and shock for it. An assault rifle needs I think 4 net hits with normal ammo to hurt a force 5 spirit, which is a absurdly easy to summon spirit.