A thought on cyberware, Sammy vs Mage Options

[Inpu]

A lot of people are unhappy with how Street Samurai end up with a perceived short end of the stick when compared to Adepts and are thought to be especially easy prey for Magicians. Of course, there are many ways to defend against magic, chief among them having a Magician of your own but also possibly looking at Qualities that make it easier to resist magic.

Going by the flavor text, cyberware appears as dead spots on a person's aura and this often seems to disturb mages as mentioned in Ghost Cartels in particular a number of times. A person is made more an object over time rather than a person.

What I'm getting at is if a Street Sammy is more toaster than person, could not a GM rule that object resistance or spell dice modifiers come into play in addition to the basic Will/Body roll? It seems like an interesting option.

Thoughts?

[Lansdren]

A lot of people are unhappy with how Street Samurai end up with a perceived short end of the stick when compared to Adepts and are thought to be especially easy prey for Magicians. Of course, there are many ways to defend against magic, chief among them having a Magician of your own but also possibly looking at Qualities that make it easier to resist magic.

Going by the flavor text, cyberware appears as dead spots on a person's aura and this often seems to disturb mages as mentioned in Ghost Cartels in particular a number of times. A person is made more an object over time rather than a person.

What I'm getting at is if a Street Sammy is more toaster than person, could not a GM rule that object resistance or spell dice modifiers come into play in addition to the basic Will/Body roll? It seems like an interesting option.

Thoughts?

Its a tricky one, are we talking a extra die or two per point of essance loss which for the most part isnt much, I would say if your doing something like that you should also be running with the optional rule that makes healing them with magic harder too.

[Inpu]

Its a tricky one, are we talking a extra die or two per point of essance loss which for the most part isnt much, I would say if your doing something like that you should also be running with the optional rule that makes healing them with magic harder too.

Pretty much my point: it seems healing them is more difficult by SR4 core, so it stood to reason other spells would have issues as well.

It wouldn't be much, but it is certainly more than they had before. It might take some tweaking, but every die counts in magic resistance checks.

[Ascalaphus]

Quick! Quick! Add some more metal rods to him, so he'll be more magic resistant!

It's an interesting idea though.

[Simon Kerimov]

There is the Arcane Arrester metagenic trait that I could see becoming geneware or bioware.

[Inpu]

Quick! Quick! Add some more metal rods to him, so he'll be more magic resistant!

It's an interesting idea though.

There are so many downsides to having cyberware, such as becoming a social pariah, always setting off the alarm systems, so forth that it just seemed like it might also have a benefit attached. It also would prevent overly abusing Cyberware for adepts or magicians, since it may make it more difficult to use any sort of magic on themselves (though they should be using Bioware anyways).

[Doc Byte]

A lot of people are unhappy with how Street Samurai end up with a perceived short end of the stick when compared to Adepts and are thought to be especially easy prey for Magicians.

I'm wondering if these "unhappy people" ever read the rules. Mages are far less powerfull than some people think. Don't forget that spellcasting hits (not net hits!) are limited to the spell's force. And if the mage gains no net hits at all the spell simply fails. Most mages won't have much more than 8 to 12 dice and a magic attribute above 5. One can't blame the rules for min-maxed powergaming builds.

[Inpu]

I'm wondering if these "unhappy people" ever read the rules. Mages are far less powerfull than some people think. Don't forget that spellcasting hits (not net hits!) are limited to the spell's force. And if the mage gains no net hits at all the spell simply fails. Most mages won't have much more than 8 to 12 dice and a magic attribute above 5. One can't blame the rules for min-maxed powergaming builds.

I personally agree, as seen in previous statements I made in other threads. I don't see magic as particularly unfair, since a team can come prepared for it. However, I do think it would be fair (or, rather, worth considering) for highly cybered individuals to have a sort of resistance based off of the flavor and rules regarding objects.

[Doc Byte]

I personally agree, as seen in previous statements I made in other threads. I don't see magic as particularly unfair, since a team can come prepared for it. However, I do think it would be fair (or, rather, worth considering) for highly cybered individuals to have a sort of resistance based off of the flavor and rules regarding objects.

There is such a rule. It's called cybermancy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Inpu]

There is such a rule. It's called cybermancy. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I meant for a basic Sammy, not a background generating walking atrocity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (Though that almost fits most Sammies in the long run, come to think of it)

[JurneeJakes]

Whereas Adepts and Sammies fill the same roles (typically) in a team, mages and sammies are completely different leagues and I see no reason why they should be balanced. It should take an intelligent and imaginitive sammie to take on a mage. Stay out of sight and outsmart him. Those are the street sam's options.

[Irion]

It is worth considering for direct combat spells, metal manipulations and may be illusions.

Indirect combat spells should remain uneffected.
This kind of defance should give 1 dice or less per point of essence lost.
Everything above that would render magic close to uselsee. (Close to everyone has one poin of Cyber and close to everywhere there is a backgroundcount of 1 and nearly in every given Situation there is bad visiual. So you easy get to lose 2 dices or more and the one defending gets one.

Considering the rather small pool for spellcasting (foci are not so helpfull if dealing with BC) this seems to be good enough.
But at the same time I would nerf counterspelling a bit. On self no Problem, but on others just half or something.

Lets get an avarage street sam and an average mage to start killing each other. Lets just take the ones out of the core book.

The combatmage has a dicepool of 10 and a magic of 5.

The sam has 3 to 4 points of essence lost and a willpower of 3.

Let get to the streets with dim lights in the sprawls:
Our mage drops down to 8 dices (BC 1 and light)
Or sam has about 6 to 7dices to resist.
Well, it looks equal.
But if you go to the sam shooting the mage it comes down to: 15/4(7). (shooting/evading(full) same surrounding)
You can do it, but mages would have to reconsidere their role. Which is not a bad thing.

[Doc Byte]

It should take an intelligent and imaginitive sammie to take on a mage. Stay out of sight and outsmart him. Those are the street sam's options.

Use your cyber-radar and shoot him with your Ares Alpha thru the wall.

[Inpu]

Yes, that is why this is from a flavor perspective. I just think if a person is more object than person, they might get special resistance modifiers, as with most other GM modifiers in other situations. If a Mage wants to smash a Street Sam, it doesn't take too much. Same in reverse, with a good head on the shoulders or good team.

Balance is not the biggest concern: everyone had the opportunity to take mage qualities/magic resistant qualities in character creation, and so it is balanced just fine.

Looks pretty good Irion.

[Johnny B. Good]

Whereas Adepts and Sammies fill the same roles (typically) in a team, mages and sammies are completely different leagues and I see no reason why they should be balanced. It should take an intelligent and imaginitive sammie to take on a mage. Stay out of sight and outsmart him. Those are the street sam's options.

So it's perfectly acceptable that mages are that much more powerful than street sammies? Honestly you could use that argument about any character archetype.

There is the Arcane Arrester metagenic trait that I could see becoming geneware or bioware.

That wouldn't work, as it's a magical metagenic trait, similar to Glamour or Nasty vibe.

My biggest gripe is with manifesting spirits and mages. The can cast spells, use abilities, and there is simply no way for mundanes to hurt them.

Now, a question:

Refined reagents are active on the astral plane. Does that mean that theoretically you can hit spirits by throwing a wood reagent at it? Also see: Biofiber Hardliners.

[Laodicea]

My biggest gripe is with manifesting spirits and mages. The can cast spells, use abilities, and there is simply no way for mundanes to hurt them.

Not true. Manifesting spirits and mages can only target that which is astrally active. Materializing Spirits can target things that are not astrally active. Mages can't materialize. A materialized spirit is vulnerable to physical attacks, but they do have immunity to normal weapons.

[Yerameyahu]

Johnny B. Good, are there actually rules for 'magical metagenic traits'? I thought it was a vague GM house-rule. I mean, I agree, but it's nice to be consistent.

[Johnny B. Good]

Not true. Manifesting spirits and mages can only target that which is astrally active. Materializing Spirits can target things that are not astrally active. Mages can't materialize. A materialized spirit is vulnerable to physical attacks, but they do have immunity to normal weapons.

Didn't know that. Can I get a page number?

[Johnny B. Good]

Johnny B. Good, are there actually rules for 'magical metagenic traits'? I thought it was a vague GM house-rule. I mean, I agree, but it's nice to be consistent.

No there are not actually rules on this, but it falls under the umbrella of Common Sense. Geneware/bioware can't mimic or duplicate any effects of magic because magic is more than just genes, it's genes + astral gene shadows which SR science hasn't figured out yet. Astral Hazing directly interacts with magic, meaning that it is a magical SURGE trait and can't be duplicated by geneware. Glamour and Nasty Vibe are the same way.

It's sort of like trying to give somebody Dual Natured through geneware. It just doesn't work.

[Yerameyahu]

That's what I thought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You don't have to convince me, I'm just pointing out that you were describing a house rule.

[Johnny B. Good]

That's what I thought. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You don't have to convince me, I'm just pointing out that you were describing a house rule.

Yup. You'd also have to houserule having them too (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

Well, you'd have to GM-approve having them. The *rules* for ware-izing metagenic traits already are in the book (btw, Arcane Arrester would cost through the nose anyway, right?).

[Dakka Dakka]

Didn't know that. Can I get a page number?

What spirits get: SR4A p. 186
Manifesting SR4A p.193
Materialization SR4A p. 296

[Kruger]

It should take an intelligent and imaginitive sammie to take on a mage. Stay out of sight and outsmart him.

That statement can be reversed so easily. Why shouldn't the mage be worried about the street samurai and have to be smart and imaginative?

In the older versions of the game, in fact that was often the case.

In any case other than where there's a balance and every player type has to play smart, you're no longer playing a good roleplaying game. This isn't called Magic: The Asskicking. It's Shadowrun.

[Ascalaphus]

Sure, one failed initiative roll and that mage could a red smear on the pavement.