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[Laodicea]

So...The immortal elves were walking around in the 5th world behind the scenes, doing what they do.

What about immortal elves who happened to be infected? Would they have died when the mana levels could no longer support the magical infection?

Is there anything in the fiction that indicates that there were infected immortal elves running around in the 5th world?

As a GM, would it be ridiculous to include an immortal elf banshee in my game as The Big Bad for the campaign?

Thanks!

[Mooncrow]

So...The immortal elves were walking around in the 5th world behind the scenes, doing what they do.

What about immortal elves who happened to be infected? Would they have died when the mana levels could no longer support the magical infection?

Is there anything in the fiction that indicates that there were infected immortal elves running around in the 5th world?

As a GM, would it be ridiculous to include an immortal elf banshee in my game as The Big Bad for the campaign?

Thanks!

Well, since we don't know exactly how the Immortal Elves work (at least I don't think it's been covered?) it doesn't seem like much of a stretch to have one as an Infected. While they probably were hampered by a low magic rating during the 5th world, all they would really need to stay alive is enough to power their essence drain. And given the numerous legends of vampires operating in the 5th world, that certainly seems plausible.

So in short - sounds like a pretty sweet Big Bad to me =)

(Taking note, and stealing the idea for a future run^^)

[Yerameyahu]

Did the diseases exist then? Personally, having no idea how the IE's work is a good reason *not* to assume they can be Infected. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Definitely could be the idea for a really scary monster, though.

[Mooncrow]

Did the diseases exist then? Personally, having no idea how the IE's work is a good reason *not* to assume they can be Infected. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Definitely could be the idea for a really scary monster, though.

Well, we know they can be Corrupted (Blood Queen, Ainthe) it doesn't seem like it's a stretch to say they could be Infected. But who knows?

[Laodicea]

I karmagened him with around 2500 karma and no restrictions on availability of gear. He has a pretty extensive support system of businesses, syndicates, and gangs. He's a possession tradition magician with quite a number of metamagics including channeling.

He's also being hunted by a group of elite "witch hunters" that belong to a specific and secret order of Priests belonging to the Catholic church, who answer only to the Pope and to God. These witch hunters believe him to be the anti-christ. These "witch hunters" are also pretty prejudiced against any non-christian magical traditions.

The shadowrun team ran into one of them and killed him. He was locking people up, torturing them for information on the anti-christ. The specific Witch Hunter they killed was quite a bad ass in terms of magical protection. Mystic adept w/ spell resistance, counterspelling foci, 6 skill in counter spelling, etc. He had a very fancy heavy pistol with an ammo skip system, loaded up with silver bullets, UV rounds, SNS, APDS, etc. However, he died easily to the unarmed combat adept that snuck up on him. He could have proven a valuable ally to the team if they hadn't 1. killed him and 2. been able to get along with him despite vastly different magical traditions.

[Critias]

If you think your group has a realistic chance in hell at taking out (or, rather, surviving a conflict with) a monster like that, knock yourself out, I guess. If it'll fit in your campaign, it'll fit in your campaign.

Personally? I'd assume that Immortal Elves aren't only immune to aging in order to rightfully be called "immortal," but diseases -- even HMHVV -- as well, so the infection/immortality aren't exactly compatible. That's just me, though, and I'm not sure if it's 100% canon.

[Laodicea]

I can't imagine they could ever kill him, or even take him on. He's just the guy behind the scenes causing all the bad shit to happen, a bit like a great dragon.

If they ever do learn enough to find him, they'll probably have the wisdom to not attack him head on. If they dont have that much wisdom, they'll probably die.

[Sephiroth]

Personally? I'd assume that Immortal Elves aren't only immune to aging in order to rightfully be called "immortal," but diseases -- even HMHVV -- as well, so the infection/immortality aren't exactly compatible. That's just me, though, and I'm not sure if it's 100% canon.

I'm not sure where I found it, but I have read somewhere that all Immortals, including the immortal elves, have Immunity to Age, Toxins, and Disease. I might just be thinking of Knasser's Harlequin writeup, but I think it's been established that the IE's are immune to desease and all that.

[Traul]

Why do you need an immortal elf to begin with? Banshees are immortal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Maybe Immortal Elfs do not exist? Maybe they are just a cover-up for a giant banshee conspiracy? I will ask Harlequin next time I see him.

[CanRay]

JetBlack LIVES!

[Laodicea]

Why do you need an immortal elf to begin with? Banshees are immortal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Maybe Immortal Elfs do not exist? Maybe they are just a cover-up for a giant banshee conspiracy? I will ask Harlequin next time I see him.

HAH! Sadly, that's the best explanation I've heard so far.

[Jaid]

just thought i'd mention, i vaguely recall hearing that one of the german novels happened to include an elven nosferatu or some such thing being around during the downtime. so i would say that if you're willing to consider a (reputedly not very good) novel to be canon, then yes... there probably were banshees around throughout the 5th world. or at the very least, it's a reasonable possibility.

[Doc Byte]

Why do you need an immortal elf to begin with? Banshees are immortal (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

AFAIK all HMHVV infected are imune to age.

[Critias]

I think the issue to remember is that "Immortal Elf" tends to refer to a very specific set of them, that've been around since the Fourth Age. They are plot points. They are the sort of creatures that don't gets stats, because they're beyond the game's ability to meaningfully reflect the scope and scale of ability they are capable of.

A Banshee tacks some Critter powers on top of that, and makes them even nastier, and particularly more resilient to physical harm.

It's...pretty unnecessary, in my opinion. An IE is already something -- played properly -- so far beyond the ability of your average group of Shadowrunners to challenge, that making them a Banshee too is like giving Superman Thor's hammer, Iron Man's armor, Cap's shield, and a Green Lantern ring, in order to challenge a group of bank robbers.

If it's what's needed in your campaign to provide an appropriate challenge to your players, well, more power to ya. But in my experience it seems more likely to be a Mary Sue-ish example of heavy-handed GM powermongering, which is the sort of thing that can get off the leash and run out of control pretty fast.

[CanRay]

Bank Robbers...

I think you're giving Shadowrunners too much credit. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Laodicea]

I think the issue to remember is that "Immortal Elf" tends to refer to a very specific set of them, that've been around since the Fourth Age. They are plot points. They are the sort of creatures that don't gets stats, because they're beyond the game's ability to meaningfully reflect the scope and scale of ability they are capable of.

A Banshee tacks some Critter powers on top of that, and makes them even nastier, and particularly more resilient to physical harm.

It's...pretty unnecessary, in my opinion. An IE is already something -- played properly -- so far beyond the ability of your average group of Shadowrunners to challenge, that making them a Banshee too is like giving Superman Thor's hammer, Iron Man's armor, Cap's shield, and a Green Lantern ring, in order to challenge a group of bank robbers.

If it's what's needed in your campaign to provide an appropriate challenge to your players, well, more power to ya. But in my experience it seems more likely to be a Mary Sue-ish example of heavy-handed GM powermongering, which is the sort of thing that can get off the leash and run out of control pretty fast.

The Big Bad is almost always unkillable. See my post above comparing him to a Great Dragon. He's not some kind of video game boss that you have to kill at the end of the game. He's the power broker behind the scenes.

[kzt]

The Big Bad is almost always unkillable. See my post above comparing him to a Great Dragon. He's not some kind of video game boss that you have to kill at the end of the game. He's the power broker behind the scenes.

That's completely true if you are running a FPS. It's a crazy assumption in any other game, like SR. The fact that you can't get to Damon Knight doesn't mean he can shoot lasers out of his eyes or summon greatform F12 blood spirits. He'll still crush you like a bug if he realizes you are a threat.

[Critias]

The Big Bad is almost always unkillable. See my post above comparing him to a Great Dragon. He's not some kind of video game boss that you have to kill at the end of the game. He's the power broker behind the scenes.

No, but he's a bad guy that you need to be able to survive having as a bad guy.

If you've got Lofwyr's attention as a mild annoyance, the odds are very, very, good you're dead. You don't need to make Lofwyr a dracolich on top of that.

[Mooncrow]

No, but he's a bad guy that you need to be able to survive having as a bad guy.

If you've got Lofwyr's attention as a mild annoyance, the odds are very, very, good you're dead. You don't need to make Lofwyr a dracolich on top of that.

Isn't that what they basically did to his brother? At a certain point, it's more about style than anything else.

Think of it this way instead - if you want to have the Big Bad be a banshee, how do you give them the stats of "unkillable"?

[Laodicea]

Unkillable isn't exactly the goal. I suppose if they somehow managed to get through all his support and security and plant a huge bomb at his mansion, he'd die. Terrifying and interesting in terms of his motivations is more the goal I had in mind. An immortal elf banshee isn't looking for exactly the same things in life as a dragon.

His support and security will be fairly impressive. He's not a AAA corp owner like Damien Knight, though.

[Yerameyahu]

Well. That's a Medium Bad, then. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Laodicea]

^^ yet people are saying I'd be a mean GM to make him the Big Bad of the campaign....

[WyldKnight]

And thats why you ignore them lol. Honestly whats the big deal? Making it a banshee doesn't make it any tougher because your not fighting it directly anyway. I've noticed that a lot in the Dumpshock community, people seem to need a reason to do a lot of things and scoff at the justification of because it's cool.

[CanRay]

See here.

[Dumori]

I have to make a few points some have been/might have already been made:

• HMHVV wasn't around in the 4th age for some reason.
• Immortal Elves appear to have immunity to toxins/dease as well as age.
• Is it really needed just pick one or the other I'd ignore the IE part my self due to them being like GDs but "sexier" the banshee part also seams to be more key than the IE part to your grand plot. Just remember while Harliy might be the most powerful IE his magic is at least above 50 by cannon descriptions, The other IEs might be less powerful but we are still talking 12+ magic to say the least plus ages to produce foci and such.

[Elfenlied]

Laodicea, do you mind if I blatantly rip off your for my own campaign? The Catholic church fighting an Immortal Elf Banshee in an eternal conspiracy is just way too awesome!

[IKerensky]

Hum, I am not sure Harlequin can be crowned as the more powerfull of the IE. He is one of the more visibly active in the 6th world sure, the more powerfull ? I doubt it. He is not one of the older, some IE are there from before Earthdawn time afterall.

I think he is on par as Ehron as the power goes, but weaker than Allachia in magic (she is older than him and perfecting her own school of magic while he was still learning ED disciplines). I think that some of the Dragon Killer team aren't small players themselves.

During the 4 ages some of the infected metatypes existed, in name at least, but they weren't close to what they are in Shadowrun.

You dont need for the Banshee to be an Immortal Elf to make her a valuable opponent.

[Dumori]

Hum, I am not sure Harlequin can be crowned as the more powerfull of the IE. He is one of the more visibly active in the 6th world sure, the more powerfull ? I doubt it. He is not one of the older, some IE are there from before Earthdawn time afterall.

He has been cannonly described as the most powerful none dracoform magic user that makes him the most powerful IE by default. IDK how it pulled it off maybe he's a very quick learner or manged to move to the metaplanes when the 5th age hit and use that time in magical space to pump his power up.

Still IEs are best left out of most plots they tend to have close links to each other either as friends or foes you get on the wrong side of an IE other are atleast gonging to poke their heads in same with Dragons and GDs. Even if this guy is hated by them all then you have to explain why they haven't tried to killing for 5000+ years.

[CanRay]

Hum, I am not sure Harlequin can be crowned as the more powerfull of the IE.

He's the one that has the most fun.

"I like Ike!"

[Critias]

^^ yet people are saying I'd be a mean GM to make him the Big Bad of the campaign....

I never said you were being a "mean GM." I just said it would be monstrous, horrific, overkill in my game. I don't know your players, I don't know their characters, I don't know how brutally and efficiently you'd run an Immortal Elf Banshee, I don't know the power level of your campaign, I don't know the tone or mood of it, I don't know any of that. All I know is my flavor of Shadowrun, where it would be way too much bad guy.

If it works at your game, knock yourself out.

[Laodicea]

Laodicea, do you mind if I blatantly rip off your for my own campaign? The Catholic church fighting an Immortal Elf Banshee in an eternal conspiracy is just way too awesome!

Feel free. I'm glad someone likes it. I hope my players will.

[last_of_the_grea...]

Nothing in Shadowrun is unkillable. The question is do the players and their characters have the time, resources and enginuity to get the job done. In most cases the answer is no. However, there's always that one that catches you by surprise with sheer, simple genius and the only way to keep that great dragon alive is with GM fiat. Personally I do not believe in GM fiat. Let the dice fall where they may! If the players get lucky and take out Ghostwalker then they should frikkin' take out Ghostwalker!

So, go ahead and make your banshee and by all means give him stats. I only wish the game's writers had the nads to officially publish these so-called "plot points'" stats!

[Yerameyahu]

Disagree. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) You might as well let your 'shadowrunners' destroy a continent, 'if they have the resources'. They won't. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Whipstitch]

There isn't anything currently in my games capable of taking out a Great Dragon that isn't at least partially owned by other Great Dragons. An old nuke could get the job done, I suppose, but that's about the "easiest" option I think my players would have a chance at. There's also a variety of kamikaze style attacks, such as ramming them with a t-bird or something, but honestly I just don't see it happening.

[Neurosis]

Wouldn't their IMMUNITY TO DISEASE kind of throw a kink in this?

Not that this isn't a cool idea.

[Mooncrow]

Where are you guys trotting out the Immunity from Disease thing? I honestly don't think I've seen any official powers for the IE; if it's listed somewhere, I would love to know.

[Mongoose]

The immunity to disease is irrelevant, if you are talking Immortal Elf. Sure, they might not normally catch diseases, but with the magical enemies floating around back in the 4th age its entirely possible that it could be magically induced, or his resistance was eliminated at least temporarily. Or it could be the result of some ill-advised attempt at using magic to increase his own power. Or he's the first banshee ever, or her lover, or...
Whats almost certain is its not just because he got jumped by some punk banshee one dark night while taking a piss behind the pub.

[last_of_the_grea...]

There isn't anything currently in my games capable of taking out a Great Dragon that isn't at least partially owned by other Great Dragons. An old nuke could get the job done, I suppose, but that's about the "easiest" option I think my players would have a chance at. There's also a variety of kamikaze style attacks, such as ramming them with a t-bird or something, but honestly I just don't see it happening.

Or hit him with a cannister or 10 of FAB 3! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Neurosis]

Where are you guys trotting out the Immunity from Disease thing? I honestly don't think I've seen any official powers for the IE; if it's listed somewhere, I would love to know.

Canonically referenced several times in Harlequin's Back.

In Harlequin's description, obviously (like the first sentence) and also in Jane's stat block (Harlequin's Back p. 148).

Powers: Immunity to Age, Disease, Pathogens, Poisons

If Immortal Elves were anything else...like anything meant to ever be a playable character...then I might agree with the viewpoint that their Immunity to Disease does not apply to Awakened diseases like HMVV. But...come on.

[Critias]

The immunity to disease is irrelevant, if you are talking Immortal Elf. Sure, they might not normally catch diseases, but with the magical enemies floating around back in the 4th age its entirely possible that it could be magically induced, or his resistance was eliminated at least temporarily. Or it could be the result of some ill-advised attempt at using magic to increase his own power. Or he's the first banshee ever, or her lover, or...
Whats almost certain is its not just because he got jumped by some punk banshee one dark night while taking a piss behind the pub.

If the GM just wanted to hand wave it, why ask the question in the first place?

[Mooncrow]

Canonically referenced several times in Harlequin's Back.

In Harlequin's description, obviously (like the first sentence) and also in Jane's stat block (Harlequin's Back p. 148).



If Immortal Elves were anything else...like anything meant to ever be a playable character...then I might agree with the viewpoint that their Immunity to Disease does not apply to Awakened diseases like HMVV. But...come on.

Interesting, I've never actually read that adventure, and I assumed they treated like the first one; ie. no stats whatsoever.

The Blood Queen might disagree that they're immune to magical ailments though.

[Neurosis]

Harly has no stats but for some reason his fluff block specifically mentions his immunity to diseases! And stats for Jane are given.

[Sephiroth]

Interesting, I've never actually read that adventure, and I assumed they treated like the first one; ie. no stats whatsoever.

The Blood Queen might disagree that they're immune to magical ailments though.

ReNaming yourself is more than a bit different from being Infected, however.

[Laodicea]

You dont need for the Banshee to be an Immortal Elf to make her a valuable opponent.

Right. Any immortal elf power-broker would be a rough guy to be on the wrong side of. The difference between, say, Damien Knight, and this banshee fellow, is that the banshee has fundamentally different motivations and concerns in life. The banshee is also hiding himself from these witch-hunter priests, and possibly other enemies.

[WyldKnight]

Could be a Immortal Elf mad scientist. They sought a way to make other people immortal and created a sort of virus based on their own DNA. A magical plague that was meant to be a gift to those the madman/woman thought worthy of immortality. Problem was in science especially that based around genetics things happen that you can't predict and it mutated to what we know today. The scientist was infected with the first generation of the virus that was much more powerful before it became diluted for whatever reason and poof you got some sort of infected bent on correcting their mistake and creating a true immortality potion. Heck, you can take the immortal elf out of that and it would still work. Just the people who made it would have to be pretty powerful and were probably experimenting on something they found to be immortal...like an elf or some sort of critter sapient or otherwise. Idk, I'm pulling this out of nowhere so don't even try to apply logic to it lol.

[NetWraith]

JetBlack LIVES!

Only if you can find him and decrypt that strange disk thing that has the data on it... And watch out for the rats!

[Jaid]

immunity to disease, unlike immunity to age, has a rating. if a given disease can exceed that rating, in some way, the immortal elf can theoretically be infected with it. mind you, if we aim low and assume that immortal elves had a magic attribute of "only" 8 or 9 when they were first created, you'd need a power 16 or 18 virus (or one with enough penetration to get through that much protection). in the case of HMHVV II, it is power 13 with -6 penetration, which is enough for a magic 9 immortal elf who had just awakened (also, it's presumably possible for a given case of infection to come from a different virus. considering we're discussing someone getting infected potentially several thousand years ago, i don't think it's unreasonable to speculate that the disease may have changed since then).

but perhaps most important is the fact that the immortal elf in question would first have been drained to 0 essence before being infected. this would mean that the elf could have had a magic attribute as high as 15, and still wouldn't be able to instantly ignore it (note: technically, when you hit 0 essence you actually lose all your magic, but HMHVV appears to screw that up somehow, so we'll assume the elf still gets his immunity power)

but wait, there's more! HMHVV II is spread only by the infection power. the infection power does not grant a disease resistance test; it can be used when you are reduced to 0 essence, at which point the critter makes a magic + charisma test vs your body + willpower. theoretically, even a powerful magician could roll badly on the latter, and even a weak vampire could roll well on the former (or use edge), and if we assume it was a fairly powerful vampire (and possibly had spent essence to boost it's magic attribute - is that still technically possible these days?), then the odds change considerably... and since there is no disease resistance test involving the disease's power, immunity doesn't come into play. if the critter beats your roll, you are immediately infected. it becomes a much closer competition, and once infected, there are only 2 outcomes: you either arise as a vampire, or you die. even if you 'beat' the disease, you die. so you can imagine that if he somehow got infected, and didn't want to die, an immortal elf would have to accept life as a banshee.

[Machiavelli]

Please don´t forget that the infection with HMHVV does NOT reduce your essence to 0. There is no such statement in the description of the disease.

[Dahrken]

Well, yes, but the strain able to turn an elf into a Banshee requires the Infection power to affect it's recipient, and that make the "Drain to 0-Essence" step mandatory for a successful transformation.

[Jaid]

Well, yes, but the strain able to turn an elf into a Banshee requires the Infection power to affect it's recipient, and that make the "Drain to 0-Essence" step mandatory for a successful transformation.

exactly. before the infection test can even happen, you must first be drained to 0 essence. therefore, you're losing at least 6 points of essence, which equates to at least 6 points of magic, which equates to at least 12 points of immunity to disease. of course, if immortal elves have more than 6 points of essence, this is just going to be even worse for the immortal elf, but SR4 seems to have given everyone equal essence (except for stuff that has variable essence).

[Sephiroth]

exactly. before the infection test can even happen, you must first be drained to 0 essence. therefore, you're losing at least 6 points of essence, which equates to at least 6 points of magic, which equates to at least 12 points of immunity to disease. of course, if immortal elves have more than 6 points of essence, this is just going to be even worse for the immortal elf, but SR4 seems to have given everyone equal essence (except for stuff that has variable essence).

It seems to me like IE's would have more than 6 Essence, unfortunately for them. Dragons all have 7 or more essence, and iirc its hinted in the SR and ED canons that the IE's are dragonkin - which would probably raise the IE's essence by virtue of being descended from dragons. Of course, never having played ED, my understanding of the term 'dragonkin' may be incorrect.

[darthmord]

It seems to me like IE's would have more than 6 Essence, unfortunately for them. Dragons all have 7 or more essence, and iirc its hinted in the SR and ED canons that the IE's are dragonkin - which would probably raise the IE's essence by virtue of being descended from dragons. Of course, never having played ED, my understanding of the term 'dragonkin' may be incorrect.

IIRC, in ED immortal elves were the first dragon servitor race. They rebelled against Dragons which caused the Dragons to resaerch new servants (drakes).

My understanding from reading several ED books (and AH's site) is that Immortal Elves are the result of a Dragon & an Elf having children. I could be wrong but that was my take-away.

[Machiavelli]

Well, yes, but the strain able to turn an elf into a Banshee requires the Infection power to affect it's recipient, and that make the "Drain to 0-Essence" step mandatory for a successful transformation.

DAMN....you are absolutely right. How could i have overseen this information. This f***cks up all my plans infecting my elf with HMHVV to become a Banshee. I apologize at everybody i have bothered with my unqualified argumentations in this and other threads about this topic....DAMN....where are my blunts...i have to come down.^^

[CanRay]

My understanding from reading several ED books (and AH's site) is that Immortal Elves are the result of a Dragon & an Elf having children.

Elf Size Queen, anyone?

[Machiavelli]

It seems to me like IE's would have more than 6 Essence, unfortunately for them. Dragons all have 7 or more essence, and iirc its hinted in the SR and ED canons that the IE's are dragonkin - which would probably raise the IE's essence by virtue of being descended from dragons. Of course, never having played ED, my understanding of the term 'dragonkin' may be incorrect.

I played Harlequin, but i cannot remember that Frosty had more essence than 6. Does somebody have the book on hand?

[Mooncrow]

I played Harlequin, but i cannot remember that Frosty had more essence than 6. Does somebody have the book on hand?

She's listed as having 6.

[Grinder]

IIRC, in ED immortal elves were the first dragon servitor race. They rebelled against Dragons which caused the Dragons to resaerch new servants (drakes).

My understanding from reading several ED books (and AH's site) is that Immortal Elves are the result of a Dragon & an Elf having children. I could be wrong but that was my take-away.

You're correct on both accounts.

[Apathy]

So what happens to infected (of any type) during the downcycle? I'm pretty sure that if you take an infected to a mana void they just die per RAW, but maybe someone else can confirm?

[Sephiroth]

IIRC, in ED immortal elves were the first dragon servitor race. They rebelled against Dragons which caused the Dragons to resaerch new servants (drakes).

My understanding from reading several ED books (and AH's site) is that Immortal Elves are the result of a Dragon & an Elf having children. I could be wrong but that was my take-away.

I was under the impression that that is what it means to be dragonkin - the offspring of a mortal and a dragon. Perhaps dragonkin refers to something different then.

[jakephillips]

Yep Jet black LIVES.

[Jaid]

DAMN....you are absolutely right. How could i have overseen this information. This f***cks up all my plans infecting my elf with HMHVV to become a Banshee. I apologize at everybody i have bothered with my unqualified argumentations in this and other threads about this topic....DAMN....where are my blunts...i have to come down.^^

i'm a bit curious why you see this as being a problem. it led to some rather wacky rules being created to allow vampire magicians and whatnot, but those rules do exist and the immortal elf would still be able to be drained to 0 essence and come back to life as a banshee, and still have the full magician quality or whatever it is that you needed.

also, if the rules are getting in the way of your awesome, as a GM it is your right to tell the rules to shut up and go away. the only concern you should have ultimately is whether or not the gaming group as a whole will have their enjoyment increased as a result of it. if it leads to more fun, then who cares if it's against the SR4 rules. the rules are there to facilitate you having fun, and if you think a modified rule would result in more fun, then modify the rule.

[Machiavelli]

i'm a bit curious why you see this as being a problem. it led to some rather wacky rules being created to allow vampire magicians and whatnot, but those rules do exist and the immortal elf would still be able to be drained to 0 essence and come back to life as a banshee, and still have the full magician quality or whatever it is that you needed.

It was just because there are too many inconsistent rules that apply at infection. Regarding the rules that you only loose magic if your essence drops below essence+initiate grade, you could have said that if you are at least initiate grad 5 with magic 6, you definitely wouldn´t loose magic if your essence drops to 1. Now the rule for infection says that you definitely loose ALL essence before you get transformed. If essence drops to 0, you could expect that your magic BEFORE the draining totally burned out, and you regain a "new" magic rating. In this case, it wouldn´t matter how many initate grades you had before.

I am just trying to verify that i don´t have to start discussions with the GM about my transformation.