War!, and other upcoming releases in SRM Options

[KarmaInferno]

Hi,

Is War! legal for SRM?

Because while I like new stuff as much as any other player:

a) I'd expect Bull to want a review period before allowing it

and

b) There's some pretty darn unbalanced stuff in there, which worry me on a GM level.

This goes, I suppose, for the other new and upcoming releases as well, like This Old Drone and MilTech and Spy Games.



-k

[Bull]

For Print Products, they become valid once the print product hits shelves. There's not a lot I can do about the gear, unfortunately. All the rules in there are optional, so that makes it easy to deal with.

For PDF only titles, they're pretty much valid when they're made available.

Bull

[Halabis]

Just to be clear, this means a full auto grenade launcher does not do more damage than a cruize missle in missions, but we can have nanobots that build super buildings that weigh almost nothing, are bulletproof, but somehow dont blow away?

[Devolutionized]

When I saw "War's" release, I immediately dropped the other games I was planning on running, and came back to "Shadowrun." I can't wait for the street release (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Bull]

If something turns out to be completely broken and unbalancing, and becomes a problem in Missions, we'll address it as needed. Hopefully some official Errata (Rather than just a Missions specific one) will address these potential problems first.

[KarmaInferno]

Can we at least think about a "no ratings higher than X unless it appears as a specified Mission reward", like we do with Beta or better implants?

I just did the math on how long it'd take to get a Command 9 program and even under the SRM buying rules a lot of Faces are going to be able to get that or similar Availability items in just 2-4 missions.




-k

[LurkerOutThere]

Can we at least think about a "no ratings higher than X unless it appears as a specified Mission reward", like we do with Beta or better implants?

I just did the math on how long it'd take to get a Command 9 program and even under the SRM buying rules a lot of Faces are going to be able to get that or similar Availability items in just 2-4 missions.




-k

This seems pretty reasonable to me, on the other hand the FAQ just did get released so i'd imagine he's pretty resistant to changing it. Also where do you set the threshold in such an instance.

[Wraith235]

while yes it makes sense ... if you do this then by the same token you must limit Magic and Resonance to the same Rating .... whats good for the goose is good for the gander

[LurkerOutThere]

while yes it makes sense ... if you do this then by the same token you must limit Magic and Resonance to the same Rating .... whats good for the goose is good for the gander

I don't actually think there a parallel between availability and magic rating.

[Hida Tsuzua]

I don't actually think there a parallel between availability and magic rating.

I believe the argument being made by Wraith235 is that mages and especially important to this conversation technomancers don't worry about caps like this. Technos can and will easily have important complex forms at the 8+ range though threading (two levels of swap makes this even easier) while hackers haven't been able to breach the 6 barrier with programs until War! (assuming no making your own rating 12 + optimization 6 coding). This caused interesting things to happen with trying to hack computers at high TR (which is now moot) and cemented technos as kings in certain niches like remote control drones.

To get that lovely rating 10 Command costs 100,000Y. To run it on a normal commlink you'll want to pay an extra 3000-3750Y for optimization 4-5 (+2 to availability). If you don't want to worry about program options, you can pay 100,000-200,000Y for a better commlink. Affording this might take a while depending on SRM4 pay especially if it's similar to SRM3 pay. I guess you can pool money from multiple characters and get it faster, but I don't know how common that is in Mission games or if it's frowned upon. It shouldn't be too hard for a face to find it since even a 45 availability needs only a 20 dice pool. It'll take them 3 months or so and I take it faces at least charge lifestyle. Your contacts can find it pretty fast if you're willing to pay them or have a rating 10-11 group contact. This is also assuming military programs don't decay in SRM (which is reasonable interpretation of the SRM FAQ) as that makes military programs far less useful.

EDIT- Command is a common use program not a hacking program. So pretend I said Exploit above and not common. Since I've been quoted, I'll leave the mistake there. I'll make another post on command.

[Wraith235]

I believe the argument being made by Wraith235 is that mages and especially important to this conversation technomancers don't worry about caps like this. Technos can and will easily have important complex forms at the 8+ range though threading (two levels of swap makes this even easier) while hackers haven't been able to breach the 6 barrier with programs until War! (assuming no making your own rating 12 + optimization 6 coding). This caused interesting things to happen with trying to hack computers at high TR (which is now moot) and cemented technos as kings in certain niches like remote control drones.

To get that lovely rating 10 Command costs 100,000Y. To run it on a normal commlink you'll want to pay an extra 3000-3750Y for optimization 4-5 (+2 to availability). If you don't want to worry about program options, you can pay 100,000-200,000Y for a better commlink. Affording this might take a while depending on SRM4 pay especially if it's similar to SRM3 pay. I guess you can pool money from multiple characters and get it faster, but I don't know how common that is in Mission games or if it's frowned upon. It shouldn't be too hard for a face to find it since even a 45 availability needs only a 20 dice pool. It'll take them 3 months or so and I take it faces at least charge lifestyle. Your contacts can find it pretty fast if you're willing to pay them or have a rating 10-11 group contact. This is also assuming military programs don't decay in SRM (which is reasonable interpretation of the SRM FAQ) as that makes military programs far less useful.

exactly ... and thanks for clarifying a post made shortly after waking up

[Bull]

I'm honestly not too worried about the higher end programs and such. As has been pointed out, it just brings the hacker and rigger on par with where Technomancers and Magicians can get. And besides the time factor, there's also cost. A rating 7 Hacking program starts at 49,000¥. Others start at 24-25,000¥ for Rating 7. And everything gets progressively more expensive from there.

25,000¥ is likely to be a runners entire take from 2-3 adventures. 4 Adventures, once you factor in lifestyle costs for 2-3 months as well. And that's for a single bump for a single rating or program. This is on par with buying a focus or upgrading cyberware.

Of all the complaints I have about War! and how it's going to impact Missions, Program costs are one of the few areas I'm not complaining about. The higher ratings were badly needed by Hackers, and the costs make them reasonably balanced.

(Random note... We're trying to set a better pay scale for Missions Season 4. Average, moderate difficulty adventures will usually be worth around 10K. Sometimes a bit more, sometimes a bit less. "Easier" missions will probably earn you around 5-6K. Very difficult missions will earn closer to 20K, but expect those to put you through your paces. Karma awards will vary a little bit as well.)

Bull

[Hida Tsuzua]

So command is a different story than most other programs hackers care about (Stealth, Spoof, and Exploit especially). It's a common use program so it's costs are much lower, a mere 10,000Y. With optimization 5 for 3750Y so you run it on your Singularity Battle Buddy Basic, you get to be a really good remote control pilot for 13750Y. So you're at drone focused technomancer levels of command after 1-2 missions. You can also get the other common use programs at that price which can by handy (especially if you have to buy hits). That's a tad on the cheap size admittingly, but not that bad considering the matrix rules overall. Being able to more easily edit simsense on the fly and have encryption the average joe may not be able to break is nice. High Analyze might smash the weak stealth users too much however.

[Bull]

Just remember. THis stuff is available to NPCs as well (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

So, anybody made a Robin Blood character yet?

[Bull]

I would also add that Command has other problems besides cost and it being a common use program. But... That's a problem with the SR4 Decking rules, and outside the boundaries of Missions to deal with.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

I would also add that Command has other problems besides cost and it being a common use program. But... That's a problem with the SR4 Decking rules, and outside the boundaries of Missions to deal with.

You know that SR4 don't 'deck' anymore, right? We hack. Now, I'll be a good guy and get off your lawn before you yell at me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Bull]

I know. But Decking has so much more style than Hacking. And really, anyone who complains that Decking is an outdated term, but Hacking isn't makes me laugh (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

My old man merc Decks. None of this Hacking jargon nonsense.

Bah!





-k

[Bull]

The crusty old Ork MacCallister in Season 4 considers anyone who actually knows what they're doing and has the skills a Decker, If you're just a script kiddy with minor skills and expensive programs, or running strictly on agents, he considers you a hacker, and says it with a bit of contempt in his voice. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

There needs to be an Old Runners Home.

So all the Old Runners can get together, have a beer, and kvetch about how everything new sucks.

While shooting at stuff.





-k

[Bull]

If you don't know about it, you're not old enough and/or Prime enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Wasabi]

Am I the only one showing calcs that with Negotiation dicepools in the mid 20's it takes 2 months to get something with an avail of 40?

Now someone please make it so Street or Low lifestyle isnt sufficient for buying military gear...

As for NPC's getting military software too... if their commlink is grabbed by runners it just turned into loot. With 10% sellback a rating 10 hacking program still sell for 10k... more to a PC hacker who could use it and can afford more.

[Bull]

Never said I was foolish enough to put it on NPCs you'll be able to actually loot (At least not without completely botching up the run or game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

And again... *shrug* Twinks will twink, min maxers will min max. And you're STILL dropping a LOT of cash and doing nothing else in game for 2 months if that's what you're doing (after all, you can't run if you're out negotiating).

We did what we could to make the game run smoother and easier for the majority of players, and to balance things out as much as possible. But if someone is bound and determined, they can break or "game" the system, no matter what we do. I can't (and won't) worry about the 1% of players that are going to be cheese monkeys. That's up to GMs to deal with on an individual basis.

Bull

[toturi]

We did what we could to make the game run smoother and easier for the majority of players, and to balance things out as much as possible. But if someone is bound and determined, they can break or "game" the system, no matter what we do. I can't (and won't) worry about the 1% of players that are going to be cheese monkeys. That's up to GMs to deal with on an individual basis.

Bull

Until that 1% becomes a larger number. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/vegm.gif) (we've got to get a very evil player smilie, more than 80% of my players are "cheese monkeys" and the remaining 20% are being converted)