Ghosts, What are they? Options

[Tashiro]

So, I've got a character in this campaign with a bit of a weird background, and I'm trying to make sure things are on the up-and-up. Specifically, the character was part of a matched set, and his sister died. We have his sister haunting / possessing him, and so far we're using the Free Spirit character rules, which works reasonably well (Free Guardian Spirit). But the thing is -- is that the most appropriate out of the mix? It sort of fits with Shinto -- once a person dies, if you perform proper rites they become ancestor kami and don't go to the underworld, but I'm wondering how this works in 4E.

Specifically, I don't see any rules for ghosts in 4E so far -- or am I just being blind as a bat?

So, are ghosts now just a type of specific spirit? I'm wondering -- if ghosts are, then fine. If they aren't, I can half-imagine a free spirit deciding to take on the form of his deceased sister as either part of some elaborate plot, or out of sympathy, or something else. He's openly willing to let her possess him, and I can see a free spirit using this to their advantage, but I'm curious about the actual 'canon' rules for ghosts in 4E.

Opinions welcome.

[phlapjack77]

They are mentioned in Running Wild, they're separate from spirits and are mostly "monsters" to be used against PCs, I think.

[Thanee]

They are confused Watcher Spirits that could not find the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Bye
Thanee

[Lansdren]

I think they have generally avoided saying what happens to someones spirit (little s) when they die as that gets a tad religeous. Spirits (big S) are many things and could possibly be related to the other ones, or not.

Not a very good answer but its tricky to discuss this without stepping on peoples metaphysical toes.

Personally I would go down the route of all Spirits (big S) are drawn from the metaplanes and as such are not the embodiedment of someone who has died.

[Manunancy]

It is possible within what's known of SR's spirits that one spirit gets 'imprinted' with some dead person's memories. It's one of the current theories that's attempting to explain ghosts (or ghost-like phenomenons) without opening too much of a can of religious and methapysical worms.

[Prime Mover]

I think it's an issue of not wanting to step on any religious toes. But ghosts in Running Wild and Ghosts in the machine as well, Unwired. GM's call. In the past I always ran it as ghost being an imprint of the person and not the person. With 4th edition I've changed my thoughts on that some.

[Ascalaphus]

Real ghosts in SR have been neither confirmed nor denied. There aren't any rules for them.

For some interesting ideas about how ghosts might influence SR, check out the Orpheus game line.

[Tashiro]

Real ghosts in SR have been neither confirmed nor denied. There aren't any rules for them.

For some interesting ideas about how ghosts might influence SR, check out the Orpheus game line.

They had rules for ghosts in SR1, but have since put them on the wayside, which is somewhat annoying. Ahh, and Running Wild. I had tried to find 'ghost' in the index and didn't find anything. Got it now, thanks!

[Belvidere]

The way I'd run a ghost is the same as that of the way ghosts "work" in The Dresden Files novels and now the RPG. Ghosts are a person phsycic imprint on the Nevernever. Or in shadowrun's case, The Metaplanes. Maybe only awakened people can become ghosts because only they can affect the metaplanes, or maybe all it takes is a powerful enough emotion. So that "imprint" could manifest as a spirit of his sister, with her dyuing thoughts and feelings, so probably to protect her brother in the way it works with your story. So then, he could abuse her because it would go out of the imprints "thoughts".

[Mr Clock]

I am was certain there were rules for ghosts somewhere...but my research is a bust. I have found http://rpg.divnull.com/srun/apparitions.html but of course, this isn't canon. I would go with what Manunancy suggests, a spirit imprinted with at least the memories, if not the mind, of a deceased metahuman. Why? How? Such are the mysteries. Roll it as a free spirit, and enjoy the story.

[phlapjack77]

They are confused Watcher Spirits that could not find the way. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

So...they're just normal Watcher Spirits then? Cuz those things couldn't find their way out of a paper bag! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

<rimshot>

[phlapjack77]

I am was certain there were rules for ghosts somewhere...but my research is a bust. I have found http://rpg.divnull.com/srun/apparitions.html but of course, this isn't canon. I would go with what Manunancy suggests, a spirit imprinted with at least the memories, if not the mind, of a deceased metahuman. Why? How? Such are the mysteries. Roll it as a free spirit, and enjoy the story.

read Running Wild

[Ascalaphus]

"Things that look like ghosts" pop up now and then, but they can't be proven to be actual ghosts. And it's better that way; if you had to worry about the ghosts of security guards witnessing against runners...

[CanRay]

"Things that look like ghosts" pop up now and then, but they can't be proven to be actual ghosts. And it's better that way; if you had to worry about the ghosts of security guards witnessing against runners...

In some countries, you do.

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah, called "backwards countries" by the books.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that the game becomes very different if dead people manifest as ghosts more than once in a blue moon. At that point you could kill people and then Bind them in order to interrogate them, for example. Eliminating witnesses without a mage becomes infeasible. Quite a game-changer, and you should make sure you like that direction.

[Fatum]

Well, ghosts can help in finding other evidence, beside just their witness.

In what comes to spirits (of man, especially), I believe Core goes into some depth on it: they might seem like the real dead people, but nobody can explain why and whether they are actually their souls, or just some kind of psychic imprint.

[CanRay]

Yeah, called "backwards countries" by the books.

By op-eds from countries that don't allow magic to be used at all in the court of law. Ever. Who is backward now?

It's actually used by countries that have strong ties to Ancestor Worship, IIRC. Free Spirits can also give testimony, serve on juries, and even be judges in countries with strong magical ties. (Some members of the NAN, Amazonia, Etc.).

[Ascalaphus]

Well, I don't think ghost witnesses would be a good thing. So far, there's no real indication what exactly ghosts are, but it doesn't appear like they are the actual souls of the departed. The "imprinting" may or may not be accurate - nobody really knows. So it makes a very unreliable witness; it can't be established for certain who the witness is!

[CanRay]

OK, you go about insulting the religion of the Judge to his face. That can't go wrong, can it?

It seems that governments are heavily for or against magic in court, with only a very few going the middle ground. Which, considering the "New" nature of magic, is to be expected.

[Ascalaphus]

Oh, I was thinking we were evaluating the wisdom of spirit testimony from an OOC perspective, my bad. IC you'd be screwed if they think that shedim is grampa.

[CanRay]

Oh, from an OOC perspective, I'm behind you 100%. But I take into consideration all the things going on IC when I post. Sorry if that doesn't come through at times.

My mind works in twisted ways, and I get lost in there all the time. Damned dark.

[MK Ultra]

Well, I don't think ghost witnesses would be a good thing. So far, there's no real indication what exactly ghosts are, but it doesn't appear like they are the actual souls of the departed. The "imprinting" may or may not be accurate - nobody really knows. So it makes a very unreliable witness; it can't be established for certain who the witness is!

Dude, ALL kinds of witnesses are extreamly unreliable! Ask 9 bystanders about an accident. You will either get 4 quiet different reports or one and the same (that being the one that was published in the newspaper).

[CanRay]

Ask five people the same question and you'll get eight different answers. And a fist fight.

But, then again, I grew up in a mining town, so...

[Ascalaphus]

Yeah, but at least you can be fairly sure they're (meta)human. Between not-so-reliable humans and spirits of unknown origin, I'll take the humans.

[MK Ultra]

Yeah, but at least you can be fairly sure they're (meta)human. Between not-so-reliable humans and spirits of unknown origin, I'll take the humans.

Speciecist (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Seriously though, as far as I remember, aparetions (ghosts that only manifest, like watchers) and specters (ghosts that can physically materialize), have very limited means communicate and are often fixed to certain very restricted patterns of behaviour - they are hardly usefull as witnesses, but may point an investigator to the right (or false) path to uncover some evidence.
Ancestor spirits (guidance) are more easy to communicate with, but their knowledge is very limited. In gameterms, they can use the devination power, to answer questions (usually in a cryptic way) - I guess that´s what´s used in some nations like the NAN of Manchuria, aside from actual observations of spirit whitnesses from the astral.

I guess the corps (and thus most of the nation states) dont like it, because manipulating spirits is harder and less reliable, and often requires a mage, which means it´s also more expensive, then manipulating metahuman witnesses (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tashiro]

The ghost for this game is a guardian, but from what I read, that works reasonably well. Thanks for the insight. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Drace]

I am was certain there were rules for ghosts somewhere...but my research is a bust. I have found http://rpg.divnull.com/srun/apparitions.html but of course, this isn't canon. I would go with what Manunancy suggests, a spirit imprinted with at least the memories, if not the mind, of a deceased metahuman. Why? How? Such are the mysteries. Roll it as a free spirit, and enjoy the story.

While I can't remember any rules in 3rd or 4th, I do remember their being a small fluff blurb that mentions the first time a 'ghost' of a victim is used in a trial.

[Eimi]

Wasn't the ghost of the original Kenneth Brackhaven a rather explicit part of the Super Tuesday book back when? And there were ghosts haunting the Shattergraves in Chicago, too.

Of course, things get retconned all the time, but they were written pretty explicitly as being "actual" ghosts, not just spirits pretending/deluded into thinking they're ghosts.

[Fatum]

Wasn't the ghost of the original Kenneth Brackhaven a rather explicit part of the Super Tuesday book back when? And there were ghosts haunting the Shattergraves in Chicago, too.

Of course, things get retconned all the time, but they were written pretty explicitly as being "actual" ghosts, not just spirits pretending/deluded into thinking they're ghosts.

How do you tell the two apart?
Not in the court of law, with cross-references and whatever, but in the wild, like, in Shattergraves?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

How do you tell the two apart?
Not in the court of law, with cross-references and whatever, but in the wild, like, in Shattergraves?

Which is why the distinction is truly meaningless. Ghost or Spirit, who reallly cares? What is a Ghost for one tradition may be a Spirit for another. That is the beauty of the Unified Magical Theory.

[Fatum]

Which is why the distinction is truly meaningless. Ghost or Spirit, who reallly cares? What is a Ghost for one tradition may be a Spirit for another. That is the beauty of the Unified Magical Theory.

Ghost or Spirit is easy to determine. They work differently.
The real question - are the ghosts actually legal representatives of the dead, or their own unrelated entities.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ghost or Spirit is easy to determine. They work differently.
The real question - are the ghosts actually legal representatives of the dead, or their own unrelated entities.

A distinction that we may never actually know...

[CanRay]

Ghost or Spirit is easy to determine. They work differently.
The real question - are the ghosts actually legal representatives of the dead, or their own unrelated entities.

Depends on the jurisdiction.

[Fortinbras]

"Are you alright, counselor? You look like you've seen a ghost."
"Yeah, we did a consult over lunch. I rounded it up to an hour."

[Daddy's Litt...]

This could be a great mystery. Do not say what the ghost is. leave some mystery in magic. We can already document spirits and elementals and biomass and spells and yet there are things that are beyond out knowledge.

It will also be more spooky if the players can't be sure about what might happen.

[CanRay]

Very true, magic is very much a mystery and should stay that way. And if it's ever measured and understood... Oops, there's another comet to throw everything out of whack!

Also, it makes one guy I know want to start a Shadowrun: Ghostbusters campaign...

[Snow_Fox]

I agree with DLN and Canray. You're pressing into new territory that isn't covered by game rules but in a way that certainly makes sense for the game world as it's developing. Feel free to free wheel and don't tell your players. Don't have hard fixed rules for the ghost. Leave them guess what it means, what it can do and what it wants. It should be scarey even for the surviving twin.

[Saint Hallow]

There was an interesting series called Le Chevalier D'Eon. It's an anime that takes place in France has has such a character being possessed by his sister. It also has a number of different takes on magic and spirituality and how it impacts the political intrigues in the series. Some nice ideas and influences can be found in it. Most of it is western take with Latin pieces, so it doesn't need to have an Asian influence.

Le Chevalier D'Eon.

[CanRay]

Actually, IIRC, isn't there a Megacorp that has a Medium working as the "Middle Man" for the ghost of a shareholder? I think that changed during Crash 2.0, but still...

[Ascalaphus]

That would be Shiawase. Sordid mess.

Anyway, I think the particularly nasty thing about ghosts is the idea that even great and powerful people, after their deaths, might be subject to Binding by some random passing mage. Makes them nervous.

[CanRay]

Well, if a AAA-Level Corp is willing to let a Ghost be a Shareholder through a Medium, that's a pretty big case for International Law to take into consideration.

Again, it depends on the jurisdiction. Although, I'd love to see the look on the face of the defendant that has his victims point him out as their killers in the courtroom, with a Free Spirit Judge making sure there's no magical coercion.

[Snow_Fox]

Generally it isn't allowed because you can't be sure that the spirit that is summoned really is the 'person' in question.
That is the issue with ouija boards, you never really know who you got. but if in this campaign it really is a ghost, or maybe isn't, you can't be sure.