How strong is a Troll, exactly? Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Cube]

Shadowrun is kind of bad about issuing benchmarks, so I have to wonder.

Assuming moderate physical training, no Phys AD powers, and no ware, how strong is a troll?

[Stahlseele]

Natural Maximum of STR 10, if that did not change since SR3.
So not quite twice as strong as the strongest natural human.
But more than 3 times as strong as the normal human intermediate at STR 3 . .
A normal Troll STARTS at STR5 MINIMUM, which is STILL twice as strong as most humans will be.
And still just shy of being as strong as the strongest natural human possible.
Moderate Training, let us say STR of 8.
Still much stronger than the strongest natural human.
Still 2 to 3 times as strong as 90% all of the rest of the normal humans in the world.

[Tanegar]

Not quite to the level of "punching your skeleton out of your body," but still more than strong enough to beat you to death with his bare hands pretty quickly.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, or 7. I dunno if Strength has a linear meaning (in the Str+Bod test, it does), but that's still 4 more than the canonical Human average (3). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

So, a Str 7 Bod 7 'average' Troll can lift around 90kg, or carry twice that; in pounds, that's roughly 200lb and 400lb. The human is ~40kg/80kg (~90lb/180lb). Better dice luck favors the troll, cuz his DP is more than double.

[Adarael]

A basic troll is as strong as most heavyweight boxers or professional weigtlifters. Not the top-tier ones, mind you, but the rank and file.

A troll with moderate training has Strength 8. This means they are stronger than an Alligator, but slightly less strong than a moose or a grizzly bear. They are on par with an ox or a horse, and probably a brown bear, as well.

A troll with maxed strength is as strong as a wild Minotaur. He is stronger than a grizzly bear. He will tear your car apart with his hands.

Assuming a troll with maxed strength also invested in bio and cyberware to increase his strength, or has cyberarms, he could conceivably wrestle a basic dracoform, or a piasma.

[Stahlseele]

Anybody still have Knassers WHAT WOULD SAMURAI DO?
Especially the SR4 Version of that?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

It's not the latest version but I think it is good enough

HERE

[Stahlseele]

That's the SR3 Version without the Troll
Hang on folks, i hacked into my old mail account and got the archive with all of knassers good stuff.
Damn it, i take it back.
The SR4 WWSD is not in there either <.<

[Yerameyahu]

I had it on my computer, so here: http://img703.imageshack.us/i/whatwouldsamuraido.png
Does have a troll, and the stats look like SR4. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Stahlseele]

YES!
THAT is the one i was talking about!
*saves it*

[Raven the Tricks...]

Yeah that's the SR4 version, exactly as I remember it from about a year ago.

[Yerameyahu]

Yeah, that's when I saved it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Cuz it's awesome.

[hobgoblin]

I clearly missed out on that one when it showed up originally...

[Stahlseele]

All the better that we got it to resurface here then.
Only way it could have been better would have been with Knasser himself coming out of hiding to repost it here . .

[ElFenrir]

It's interesting; the lifting thing, you can see where the very high Body comes into play too; since if you notice that the Unarmed Combat scenario, Tin Man and Troll are even.

However, I'm guessing that once you put a Knife into play-the troll's higher Body and Armor might help him shrug off that damage more, which is why he takes a couple of extra out in a knife fight vs. Tinman.

But aye, you'd need to look, for raw lifting, at Body as well. If a 7 Strength Troll and a 7 Strength Human, both with Arm Wrestling: 3 sit at a table and have it out, it would likely just be whoever rolls higher would be the winner. But if these guys were to walk outside to have a lifting match, and the Troll had a 8 body, with the human with a 4 body, the troll would have a higher max lift. Of course, this isn't just troll vs. human; if two humans with mad Genetech or whatever had 7's in strength, but one human had a 4 body and the other a 7, the one with the extra body would be able to push a little bit more above their head at the end of the day.

When you start playing with some different number combos you can get some interesting results as well; a 3 Strength, 6 Body human vs. a 4 Strength, 4 Body human. Even though the 4 Strength human has a max of 20kg they can put above their head with no test(Strx5kg with no test above the head), while the 3 Str human has a max of 15, if they both rolled the maximum hits, they would be able to lift totally even amounts. (I guess how this would be explained is that Mr. Average Strength Superbody guy would be able to somehow push his body just a little more to even it out.)

[Doc Chase]

Trolls I run tend to use the engine block out of a Dodge arc-welded to a heavy tow chain as a morning star.

[Stahlseele]

I once used a street lamp pole with a sharpened car bumper welded to it as my pole-arm.

[CanRay]

I once used a street lamp pole with a sharpened car bumper welded to it as my pole-arm.

Bumper Sword?

[Stahlseele]

Close ^^
But more like the Telephone-Pole/Street-Lamp the Goliath Super Mutants in Fallout³ Base game use with a Bumper-Sword welded to one end.

[ElFenrir]

You know, reading this thread I think I'm shortchanging my (non troll, but has Exceptional Strength + Genetech: Strength) character who has a cybertorso and a pair of Kid Stealth legs augmented to a strength of 12 all around. I didn't know he'd be able to do THAT ridiculous stuff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Stahlseele]

Twelve is TWICE the natural Maximum.
You are TWICE as strong as ANY other Human has HOPES of being.
You are FOUR TIMES as strong as 90% of all humans are.
People can do silly stuff even today, i think the lifting world record is at something like 300kilo gram or so
technically, you would be able to lift 1200kilo . . 1.2 TONS speaking strictly from the muscle strength perspective.
But your bones and sinews are not made to withstand such weight, so you are going to break as soon as you manage to lift.
if your spine does not simply snap when you put all of your strength into the heave ho . .
why do you think people STILL complain about Troll-Bows?
and it was MORE EPIC in SR3 *snickers* ^^
Now from the STR12 Kid Stealth Legs.
Basically, you can lift 1200kilo WITH YOUR LEGS.
how much does your body weight?
120kilo?
How high can you jump from a stand?
0.5 to 1m up? now multiplay by 10.
you can, technically speaking, without much of a problem, jump anywhere between 5 and 10m straight up from a crouch.

[Yerameyahu]

How much does a normal polearm or heavy club weigh, compared to the wielder's total carrying capacity? A troll version shouldn't be more than the multiple the troll has of the human's strength. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) So, the average troll is a little over twice as strong as the average human; his melee weapons shouldn't be much more than twice the weight.

[Stahlseele]

You ever seen an average ANYTHING as a player character? *snickers*
18STR is REALLY fearsome in SR3.

[Critias]

How high can you jump from a stand?
0.5 to 1m up? now multiplay by 10.
you can, technically speaking, without much of a problem, jump anywhere between 5 and 10m straight up from a crouch.

Well, no. What makes sense in terms of pure physics and multiplication isn't always the case in terms of the rules of the game. Jumping is an Agility, not a Strength, skill. There are certainly ways to boost it based upon your character build, but having a ridiculously high Strength alone isn't enough to do it.

[Stahlseele]

Ah, right, that got changed from 3rd to 4th, i forgot about that <.<

[Critias]

Ah, right, that got changed from 3rd to 4th, i forgot about that <.<

It actually used to be Body (which was always weird to me).

On the one hand, I can understand raw leg strength playing a larger role in leaping distance, but on the other it did feel kind of weird for some of the other aspects of Athletics to be based entirely on how burly you are. It wouldn't be a bad house rule to have a player's Leaping sub-skill of Gymnastics be covered by AGI or STR, whichever's greater, though, in SR4.

[Stahlseele]

The SKILLS themselves were based on Body, that is true, but if i remember correctly, then the jumping height / width was calculated with strength

[ElFenrir]

Well, Athletics are all dependent on different stats these days(the Athletics Group). We have:

Gymnastics-Agility
Climbing, Running, Swimming-Strength

I do admit, the fact jumping is based ONLY on Agility + Gymnastics sits kind of odd with me as well, but them's the breaks. I guess it was the fact they didn't want to separate Jumping as a skill, and it DOES make sense for Gymnastics to be Agility based(though most gymnasts I know aren't exactly weaklings.) I mean, in this case, said troll in an early example can run a lot faster than a human, but won't be able to jump as far. Too heavy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(If I houseruled it, I'd make the jumping roll itself Agility + Gymnastics as said, but the base distances and the like would be based on Strength.) Sure, it's a little complicated but it makes a little more sense in my head. I believe both stats are sort of involved in the actual act.

When it came to flat-out running, it would be the Strength+Running test to take care of that. (Kid Stealth legs add extra movement speed.) It's kind of funny though, when you think about stat discrepancies. I did pimp my raptor-legged fellow's legs out with as much Agility as I could as well(while still getting Body, hydraulic jacks, claws, etc), but it's amusing to think that if I had left Agility at a base 3 with a 12 Strength, he'd be able to outrun a motorcycle...only to do a tiny little anemic hop at the end. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Draco18s]

It actually used to be Body (which was always weird to me).

And encumbrance (armor limit) was based off Quickness.
(And I know because our GM is going to run a SR3 game next, once my D&D game is over).

[Stahlseele]

oooh, i wish you much fun with that ^^

[Draco18s]

oooh, i wish you much fun with that ^^

I've also learned that SR3's priority build is more powerful than SR4's point buy.

Just as a test of just how much you can do, I built a drake as per Dragons of the Sixth World (Race as B, Magic as A, CDE are up to the player).

So I ended up with a drake magician with his own Doberman drone outfitted with two LMGs (it gets a fixed firmpoint AND a miniturret, each of which can hold a LMG or smaller).

The only part that could be better is that foci are expensive. But simply by being a troll (race C instead of B) bumps resources from C to B, adding an extra 310,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) . That's enough for the foci I want, a power foci, a second drone, and and IVIS system (with cash to spare).

[Stahlseele]

When you are playing SR3:
NSRCG3 < = IS YOUR BEST FRIEND!
*points down* it's in my sig, first link.
furthermore, your calculations sound wrong.
starting with bound foci eats up trollish ammounts of money . .

[hobgoblin]

Well, Athletics are all dependent on different stats these days(the Athletics Group). We have:

Gymnastics-Agility
Climbing, Running, Swimming-Strength

I do admit, the fact jumping is based ONLY on Agility + Gymnastics sits kind of odd with me as well, but them's the breaks. I guess it was the fact they didn't want to separate Jumping as a skill, and it DOES make sense for Gymnastics to be Agility based(though most gymnasts I know aren't exactly weaklings.) I mean, in this case, said troll in an early example can run a lot faster than a human, but won't be able to jump as far. Too heavy? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

(If I houseruled it, I'd make the jumping roll itself Agility + Gymnastics as said, but the base distances and the like would be based on Strength.) Sure, it's a little complicated but it makes a little more sense in my head. I believe both stats are sort of involved in the actual act.

I guess the thinking is that it is not just about raw jumping distance, but also producing a non-damaging landing. Consider the rolls and such found in freerunning to help absorb/direct the forces involved in a long fall.

It becomes a bit like the debate about weapon fire rate. Sure the pure cyclic is much higher then what the combat rules produce, but how often do one just lock the weapon in place and have it go crazy on anything inside the line of fire? Same deal here. The jumper may be able to pull of a crazy jump based on pure strength, but without the agility to control the landing that may result in a very nasty scrape or broken limb at the other end. I guess one could allow the player to replace agility for strength when doing a jump, but then take impact damage based on how far beyond the agility based distance the jump goes. This to represent that the jump is no longer controlled in any sense of the word.

[Stahlseele]

that's what armor and a good body attribute are there for ^^

[hobgoblin]

But your bones and sinews are not made to withstand such weight, so you are going to break as soon as you manage to lift.
if your spine does not simply snap when you put all of your strength into the heave ho . .

Not a problem, as going beyond 3 (SR4 rules) on cyberlimbs requires a cybertorso anyways.

[Draco18s]

starting with bound foci eats up trollish ammounts of money . .

15,000 x Force for sustaining foci.

I have yet to figure out why Improved Reflexes is 3 spells (and why you'd ever need more than 1 force for them) so that was an el cheapo foci there.

I haven't checked the price on power foci, but with 185,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) extra above my calculations, I'm pretty sure I can afford force 1.

[hobgoblin]

that's what armor and a good body attribute are there for ^^

Point exactly. If you can take the punishment, hurl yourself in the general direction you want to go and just take the landing as it comes.

The difference between Spider-man and Hulk jumping the same gap in a way (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

Not a problem, as going beyond 3 (SR4 rules) on cyberlimbs requires a cybertorso anyways.

Curious point in this - I thought that to go beyond 3 base stat you needed the torso, but you could amp it up with the capacity filling upgrades without the torso to go as high as you wanted within availability.

[Raven the Tricks...]

Other way around, you can bring it up to your base stats no matter what, then +3 above that with capacity without the torso. Beyond that you need the torso.

EDIT: And by up to base stats I meant with customized limbs, not capacity upgrades.

[X-Kalibur]

Other way around, you can bring it up to your base stats no matter what, then +3 above that with capacity without the torso. Beyond that you need the torso.

EDIT: And by up to base stats I meant with customized limbs, not capacity upgrades.

Ahh, that's what it was. Thank you for the clarification.

[Shaikujin]

The older SR generations had most costs based off "rating x rating x base cost". So stuff with higher ratings costs a whole lot more than the low level stuff.

There was something in SR1 Grimoire that was really nice, the adept power "Automatic Success" (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[hobgoblin]

Yep, those diminishing return scales where nice, from a simulation pov, tho linear scales are easier to mentally calculate at the table.

[ElFenrir]

I guess the thinking is that it is not just about raw jumping distance, but also producing a non-damaging landing. Consider the rolls and such found in freerunning to help absorb/direct the forces involved in a long fall.

It becomes a bit like the debate about weapon fire rate. Sure the pure cyclic is much higher then what the combat rules produce, but how often do one just lock the weapon in place and have it go crazy on anything inside the line of fire? Same deal here. The jumper may be able to pull of a crazy jump based on pure strength, but without the agility to control the landing that may result in a very nasty scrape or broken limb at the other end. I guess one could allow the player to replace agility for strength when doing a jump, but then take impact damage based on how far beyond the agility based distance the jump goes. This to represent that the jump is no longer controlled in any sense of the word.

Okay, seeing it like this has it make more sense in my head. Indeed, sometimes that's all it takes. While I know for a fact once can hurt themselves running(I have indeed), and while even a great runner can trip over their own feet once in awhile, making agility rolls once in awhile while running to make sure of that isn't very...I dunno, heroic? Actiony? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

But I can see maybe an option to allow someone to do some sort of All or Nothing jump-like, if they don't make the jump, they get caught, or they fall between buildings. Letting someone go ALL out and clear the gap(their help is on the other side so they'll be fine), might be something to use the Str-distance for; they're just GOING as hard and far as they can; a sprained knee be damned, as it's worse than the other two options.


Re: Allowed Cyberlimb Juicing:

Edit: Scooped already for the ruling on that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Draco18s]

When you are playing SR3:
NSRCG3 < = IS YOUR BEST FRIEND!

You don't have a way to purchase spellpoints at chargen. 25,000 for 1.

[Stahlseele]

You don't have a way to purchase spellpoints at chargen. 25,000 for 1.

really? O.o
damn, never needed that to begin with o.O
full mage gets 30 spell points
mystic adept going 6 power points into magic gets 36 spell points.
i'm not much of a magic fan and never really tried starting with foci . .
i'm not fond of having to rely on such really expensive toys(money/karma)
but yeah, there are some small little flaws in there . . but it's STILL the best thing to help you with SR3 char gen rules.

[Draco18s]

really? O.o
damn, never needed that to begin with o.O
full mage gets 30 spell points

No, you get 25 spell points.
On page 60 it tells you you can buy more, up to a maximum of 50.

[Stahlseele]

dunno where your problem is
on the spells page of the NSRCG on the bottom there is a button for buying spell points O.o
right next to it, there is one for selling spell points.
and one for selling 5 force points, but you don't seem to be getting anything for it o.O

[Draco18s]

There it is. Completely missed it.
Was just kinda poking around with it anyway.

[Stahlseele]

*shrugs*
i've been using that tool for YEARS . . and i still from time to time find/figure out new stuff ^^#
it's a good way for quick and dirty proof of concept character creation to see how they would work.
also, if everybody is using it, you get standardized character sheets. yay for standardization!

[Draco18s]

it's a good way for quick and dirty proof of concept character creation to see how they would work.

Quite. If I were to drop from "drake" to "something else" it'd probably be Elf, not Troll. Trolls have similar bonus stats, but get penalties to Q and C (drake bonuses being implied based on their "average stat block" and quite possibly "only in dracoform"; SR3 was never very clear in this regard).

[Stahlseele]

Well, the nice thing about SR3 is the fact that the most important stat for spell slingers is WILLPOWER.
So if you don't care about running slower, go dwarf. more body, more strength, more willpower, resistance to toxin/poison/sickness. infradead eyes.

[Draco18s]

Well, the nice thing about SR3 is the fact that the most important stat for spell slingers is WILLPOWER.
So if you don't care about running slower, go dwarf. more body, more strength, more willpower, resistance to toxin/poison/sickness. infradead eyes.

Mind, I was doing a budget-build (C, D, and E for attributes, skills, and resources) and still got something playable.

[Stahlseele]

ah, you are doing the priority build . . yeah, there you can do some silly stuff . .
try out the point buy system ^^