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Quix
post Mar 28 2004, 02:56 PM
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In the end of our last campaign the characters decided they all had to disappear. (Something about the Red Samurai knowing their home address, gee can't think of why they'd want to leave :sarcasm:) The party's solution was to blow up their home while the Sams were coming in, the party was to escape through a tunnel that went approx 1km out of the building.
All didn't quite go right. One of the players was killed when the fire elemental who was engulfing him cooked of the 2 Law rockets and 18 rounds of assault cannon amunition. The Samurai on the other hand had a worse day considering the mine field surrounding the building covered 270,000 square meters and once they got to the dorrs there was a 5,000 kg chunck of C-12 waiting to blow. (Yes I know leaving one big chunk of this in the middle of the floor wouldn't be real effective but the rules give abigger blast for a single large chunk then many small ones) The resulting crater was about 70 meters in radius.
Unfortunately the player who owned the building lost it, the equipment inside, and for safety's sake ditched his small company when he left town, so he lost something in the neighborhood of 8million :nuyen:
Anyone else got memorable campaign enders that they would like to share?
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Backgammon
post Mar 28 2004, 03:19 PM
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One of my chars got shot in the head while banging the mafia Don's sexy teasing daughter. 8) :spin:
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danbot37
post Mar 28 2004, 04:12 PM
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Interesting typo.... "Balze of glory" haha
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 28 2004, 09:05 PM
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QUOTE (Quix)
2 Law rockets and 18 rounds of assault cannon amunition

I wouldn't say that quite qualifies as a BoG yet. The LAWs would probably just discharge without exploding. The AC ammo might hurt quite a bit though, especially if the casings can't handle the pressure. I realize that SR rules make Fire Elemental cook-off very lethal indeed, that's one of my (many, many) pet peeves.

QUOTE
5,000 kg chunck of C-12

Now THAT does qualify. Wonder if anyone else saw the pictures, but some time back there was an incident in Russia (or Chechnya, I can't remember) where a truckload of TNT leveled a few blocks of multi-store concrete buildings. I think it was 2,000kg of TNT, the crater was about 3 meters deep through the asphalt, and the buildings had been torn apart up to over a hundred meters away.

5,000kg of C-12 can really ruin your day.

My players really aren't of the suicidal type, so their characters will probably keep on getting killed the usual ways. Shot, beaten, etc.
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Backgammon
post Mar 28 2004, 09:26 PM
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I didn't comment on the 5000kg of C-12 because clearly Quix game's are somewhere in the same stratosphere as Sphynx's games. It's a ridiculous amount, but to each his own.
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blakkie
post Mar 28 2004, 09:30 PM
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So did any of the Red Samurai survive via the virtue of having a Trauma Dampener? :grinbig:
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Mimick
post Mar 28 2004, 09:35 PM
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Had a player (mage) jump out of a helicopter after his "nemesis" (apparently he wasn't quite dead enough) without a parachute. At night. His reasoning was that he could always levitate and save himself.

He failed the drain test (was already a box past serious), knocked himself unconscious, and the star dragged his battered, broken body out of the sound a week or two later. Bonehead.

Incidentally, the guy he was trying to kill survived. :D
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blakkie
post Mar 28 2004, 09:39 PM
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QUOTE (Mimick)
Had a player (mage) jump out of a helicopter after his "nemesis" (apparently he wasn't quite dead enough) without a parachute. At night. His reasoning was that he could always levitate and save himself.

He failed the drain test (was already a box past serious), knocked himself unconscious, and the star dragged his battered, broken body out of the sound a week or two later. Bonehead.

Incidentally, the guy he was trying to kill survived. :D

LOL. Did you mention to him that maybe he should have attempted to Levitate -before- he left the safety of a functioning aircraft? :wobble:
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BitBasher
post Mar 28 2004, 09:47 PM
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6000 kg of c12? thats 6 TONS of c12. How does one get 6 tons fo c12, much less actually get it someplace. That's 6 standard one ton pickup trucks full of plastic explosive!!!

Egads!

I don' think blaze of glory is the right term considering you'll likely kill a few hundred innocents at least. I think Day of Infamy is closer to reality. :D
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blakkie
post Mar 28 2004, 10:12 PM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
6000 kg of c12? thats 6 TONS of c12. How does one get 6 tons fo c12, much less actually get it someplace. That's 6 standard one ton pickup trucks full of plastic explosive!!!

Egads!

I don' think blaze of glory is the right term considering you'll likely kill a few hundred innocents at least. I think Day of Infamy is closer to reality. :D

All the "Squeegee Kids" would just be an added bonus as it would have taken some time for the authorities and such to clear-up the background count before they could tried to confirm the team had died, and then begin trying to trail them. :cyber:
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 28 2004, 10:35 PM
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Such things are somewhat simple to get your hands on in Shadowrun. C-12 has an Availability of "only" 10. And, some time before the Madrid bombing, the Spanish police stopped a truck in Madrid with ~500kg of dynamite (or similar) inside; I think it's probably harder to get your hands on that stuff in RL Spain than it is in SR Whatevermetroplex.

Getting 5,000kg of C-12 in one shot would be pretty damn hard. But slowly accumulating it, over several months at least, would probably not be too hard with the right connections -- and some shadowrunners will have those connections.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Mar 28 2004, 10:36 PM
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Digital Heroin
post Mar 28 2004, 10:43 PM
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There's still a matter of storage, and I think said contacts would kind of get a little bit worried about supplying after a tonne or so, at least realisticly. You have to consider that they need to worried about the characters doing something collosally stupid with it (which they did) and it somehow tracking back to them...
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blakkie
post Mar 28 2004, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE (Digital Heroin)
There's still a matter of storage, and I think said contacts would kind of get a little bit worried about supplying after a tonne or so, at least realisticly. You have to consider that they need to worried about the characters doing something collosally stupid with it (which they did) and it somehow tracking back to them...

Yes Mr. Fixer, i'm back in this week to pick up another 3 10kg packs of C-12. What? Of course i've read the safety manual on proper safe workplace storage limits. That 4970kg you've sold me over the past year has all bent sent to my grandmothers' farm for removing stumps. What? Why yes she does have a LOT of trees to clear. Now just take the cash and give me my merchandise, chummer.

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Steel Machine
post Mar 28 2004, 11:18 PM
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Barring a typo on his part, my own thoughts.

Availibilty rules have always bothered me-they seem incomplete. Sure C12 gas an availibilty of 10, and witht he right rolls and contacts, etc youcan amass an amazing amount-but does any one else think that just maybe you would get flagged somewhere for amassing 4 or so tons?

If I were the guy selling over a hundred kilos that wasn't designated as a years supply for a major Syndicate or for use in a mining operation I would consider not selling to the lunatics looking to buy. After all what do you use 4 and a half tons of C12 to do anyways?

All that said the mental image of 4 and a half tons of C12 detonating is pretty hilarious. I have to wonder how much of the surronding area that'd flatten.

I also imagine afterwards explosives would be real hard to come by, what witht he big Lone Star and FBI crack down. :D

[Edit]Oops. Freud too blame maybe? :D
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blakkie
post Mar 28 2004, 11:23 PM
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QUOTE (Steel Machine @ Mar 28 2004, 11:18 PM)
Barring a typo ...........I also imagine afterward sexplosives would be real hard to come by....

Don't worry, i'm laughing with you. :spin:
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Shanshu Freeman
post Mar 29 2004, 12:12 AM
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QUOTE (danbot37)
Interesting typo.... "Balze of glory" haha

an excellent trid porno, if I'm not mistaken... So I hear.
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BitBasher
post Mar 29 2004, 12:47 AM
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I want to do some math on this but my books are still packed up, whats the rating on dynamite and whats the rating on C12?
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Steel Machine
post Mar 29 2004, 01:15 AM
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10/48 Hours Street Index of 2, legality 3-j for C12
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Fresno Bob
post Mar 29 2004, 01:19 AM
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If I remember correctly (Too cool for Acronyms!), 1kg C-12 is 12D, with -6 power/meter blast radius.

So a 1 kg chunk goes for about 2 meters.


A 5000 kg chink goes for 10000 meters radius. Thats 10 km in all directions...

Now this is just from memory, so it's probably wrong...
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Herald of Verjig...
post Mar 29 2004, 01:25 AM
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SR explosives scale according to the square root of the mass. √5000 ~= 70 or 71 giving an immediate damage of 840D or 852D. at -6/meter the range is 70 to 71 meters.

[edit] thanks for pointing out the proper degredation rate
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Fresno Bob
post Mar 29 2004, 01:27 AM
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Damn confusing explosives rules! I knew I left something out!
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Moonwolf
post Mar 29 2004, 01:29 AM
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No. Each level of explosives drops 1m/power multiplier(What you multiply the amount of explosives by to get the net power). Also, the amount for working net power is the square root of the total mass. So 5000^0.5 = 70 (rounding down decimal). Therefore, 5000kg of C-12 "only" has a blast radius of 70m.
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BitBasher
post Mar 29 2004, 02:22 AM
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no no, I need JUST the power rating if dynamite, and just the power rating of C12... Im going somewhere with all this =)
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A Clockwork Lime
post Mar 29 2004, 02:29 AM
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So where did he come up with the 2,000,000 nuyen he needed to acquire that much Plastic Compound XII? And what kind of fixer just had that much laying around? Or if he made it himself, how'd he manage to fit in the in-excess of 10,000 days/28 years needed to make it (at base of 48 hours and a TN 8 per unit, which he's not guaranteed to succeed at with every roll even with Chemistry 6)?
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blakkie
post Mar 29 2004, 02:37 AM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
no no, I need JUST the power rating if dynamite, and just the power rating of C12... Im going somewhere with all this =)

Explosives:
Commercial Rating 3, Blast -3/m, Avail 6/48
C-XII Rating 12, Blast -12/m, 10/48hrs

P.S. A Clockwork Lime, Quix did mention the guy left behind 8 million worth of nonportable assets. So obviously he was loaded.
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BitBasher
post Mar 29 2004, 02:48 AM
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Okay then, so that's 6 tons of C-XII, at rating 12. Commertial explosive is Rating 3, meaing that by the weight C-XII is 4 times more powerful than Dynamite. Therefore, That lunp of C he has is the equivalent of 24 TONS of frigging dynamite.

I think everyone should sit and think about that for a minute. Yeesh.
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blakkie
post Mar 29 2004, 03:01 AM
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.....Ok, I've thought about it.....cooool! :love:
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A Clockwork Lime
post Mar 29 2004, 03:27 AM
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Just... oy.

Also out of curiosity, where exactly was this building at? 66+ acres, not including the building itself, seems to suggest it wasn't in a major city as there's no way they'd have that much free space around the building. And hell, where'd they find the time to mine it so elegantly considering the circumstances (ie, disappearing because the Red Samurai were coming for a visit any moment)? Or did they keep all 66+ acres mined "just in case?"

And I don't care how rich you are. It's going to take time to get 5,000 kilos of C-12. With an Etiquette(10) test for each kilo, with each kilo taking a base of 2 days to get, that's still over 25 years of waiting time. It'd have been faster if he cooked it himself. (Spending more money just lowers the Availablity and increases the time.)

It's simply ridiculous all around.
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blakkie
post Mar 29 2004, 04:35 AM
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Actually you can today buy C4 by the drum, literally, if you have appropriate paperwork.

Stock level: Small stock held. Large quantities (500kg plus) available to order, delivery approximately 90 days.

P.S. Note this listing under the specifications TNT equivalence: 118%.

EDIT: Fixed the link. Oh, and since when you add up each 2 days serial for each 1kg of the product? In your SR world does buying a dozen standard frag grenades take over a month and a half (4 days * 12= 48 days)? How about 100 rnds of standard ammo, it takes nearly a week and a half (24 hours * 10= 10 days)?
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RedmondLarry
post Mar 29 2004, 04:51 AM
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I like the line substantial discount for ordering full containers (16 tonnes)!
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 29 2004, 05:04 AM
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There're no rules saying that you can only acquire one "unit" of some equipment at a time. And there shouldn't be, because many types of equipment are generally acquired in rather large batches. On the other hand, allowing any amount of C-12 to be aquired with the one Etiquette roll would also be quite silly. It could take only a fraction of those 25 years (which blakkie proved quite well above), or it could take much longer without the right contacts.

Personally, when my players are trying to get their hands on as much explosives as possible (as they have, quite a few times), I just try to use common sense instead of dice. Over a span of (I think) 5 months game-time, 2 characters with army logistics, corporate and black market contacts for just this kind of thing managed to scrape together some 500kg of various explosives, including ~100-150kg of C-12.

However, had they had a massive contact network, and enough money to spend on making sure everybody is doing their best to scrape together C-12 to sell them (like it appears the guys in Quix's game had), they could easily have collected a nice 4-digit figure.

Also remember that, because of the scaling, you actually need 16kg of TNT to get the same punch as 1kg of C-12 at the point of explosion. That's 80,000kg of TNT for 5,000kg C-12. But the 16kg might still kill someone a few meters away, while 1kg of C-12 wouldn't significantly hurt anyone who is over 1 meter away from the explosion. Which, of course, makes no sense at all, so you're always better off just fudging it. Something like 4x the explosive power of TNT seems far more reasonable -- incidentally, commercial explosives have a Power of 6 in my games, and all explosives have a Blast rating of -2/m.
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Mimick
post Mar 29 2004, 11:04 AM
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QUOTE (blakkie)
LOL. Did you mention to him that maybe he should have attempted to Levitate -before- he left the safety of a functioning aircraft? :wobble:

I figured since he was trying to catch up to another body in freefall, at night, without any detect spells or skydiving skills to speak of and not to mention mere human vision, reason was beyond him at this point.

Besides, I thought the mental image was very funny. ;)


Let's see, what else...

Oh, there's the time the troll sammie charged around the corner right into a cloud of thermal smoke, assault rifle on full-auto. I let him roll suppressive fire to at least give him a chance to hit something (heroic move, if a tad stupid) but nada. So the smoke clears, there's a lot of bullet holes in the walls around the bad guys and their cover , and his gun clicks empty.

No smartlink on that gun, so to reload he'd have to use 2 simple actions, not to mention changing fire mode. What does he do but prime 2 grenades and charge with one in each fist... (he was all but walking meat anyway, with all the bullets he'd caught - I was surprised he was still standing)

So yeah, the rest of the runners used that bought time to finish breaking the maglock out and eventually escaped.
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Quix
post Mar 29 2004, 11:42 AM
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I guess I need to add to more bits of info for this one. First to answer how he got his hands on that much C-12 the real answer is I wanted the campaign done with and I didn't abject to his method. For those who like in character reasons I realize this isn't good but due to my own foolishness the players had more resources then I could shake a stick at and no intentions of retiring.
The player in question also jacked me up about not telling the first phase to his plan. In short he got funding by offering Nicholas Aurelias (sp?) that he would start a war between Renraku and Wuxing. The means to doing this was that the players had earlier really P.O.ed WEuxing with a little job of theirs. So the players forged some documents to make it look like Renraku had ordered the run done, and then planted these documents into one of Renraku's systems. Step 2 was to have their decker check Wuxing's system for what Wuxing knew about the run the players did but this time instead of getting away clean he was to leave a trail back to Renraku. The hope here was that Wuxing would step up its actions against Renraku in an attempt to get back what the players stole, or merely for revenge would satisfy the PCs.
What does this have to do with the Red Samurai knock on the door. That was for something else the players had done to Renraku. And unfortunately got themselves caught on video tape. So most of this went off to plan. As far as the players could tell there was an increase in runs against Renraku shortly after they planted their document.
Unfortunately for the PCs Wuxing found out about the Samurai coming to the compound, moving Red Samurai to the Redmon Barrens not being a common occurence et al. So when Wuxing checked up on why the Samurai were getting moved they found some people who matched the description of the thieves they wanted. More drek waiting in the wings for the players.
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CardboardArmor
post Mar 29 2004, 02:29 PM
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I'm sorry, I'm still stunned by the sheer amount of explosives involved in this.

Never in all my years of Shadowrun have I ever even seen numbers that huge...explosives-mass-wise, anyway.
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A Clockwork Lime
post Mar 29 2004, 04:58 PM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
There're no rules saying that you can only acquire one "unit" of some equipment at a time.

That's because it's one of those "duh" rules that don't need to be stated.

Items with low Availablity are easy to get your hands on. Need a bunch of regular ammo? That shouldn't be hard to get -- you're going to hit that TN of 2 almost every time, thus it's almost always going to be available, and with a decent Etiquette, you're going to be able to divide the base time on the street (as opposed to buying through legal channels) a significant amount.

The thing *I* personally do as a house rule is 1) allow multiple successes to be used to find multiple items in stock instead of dividing the time, and 2) every number by which you beat the target number with each success indicates how many items are instock. But again, that's a house rule.

But with that house rule, a single Etiquette 3 character just rolled 3 9 5 2 while trying to hunt down some regular ammo (Availability 2/24 Hours) from a Buddy contact. By within 12 hours (he used one success to reduce the time), he can have scrounged together up to 140 rounds of it from that single contact. If he keeps looking on the street, as opposed to going to a gun shop, he can continue to regularly find similar amounts of ammo with each similar contact.

Next week his friend, a Connected Face with Etiquette 5 (Street 7) and Good Reputation 2 with cultured Tailored Pheromones 2 is using a street-level Buddy contact to hunt down some C-12 (Avail 10/48 Hours). He rolles his dice and scores a 5 5 7 2 1 2 4 1 1 14 8 3, giving him two successes. He uses one of those to reduce it down to 24 hours and with the other discovers that his buddy was able to find 6 units that fell off a truck within that time frame.

That's just the way I like to handle it. It makes sense to me and restricts the commonality of high-end items to either the most charming rogues in the group or to those people who normally acquire it legally (like the military). And never would 5,000 kilos of C-12 just happen to be sitting around waiting for some munchkin to come along with a fleet of semi-tractors to dump it in front of a buildling that's been fully mined out to 66 acres in the last couple of hours.
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Tom Collins
post Mar 29 2004, 05:29 PM
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1) The player in question was me. And yes, I did lose many millions of equipment to the blast. Renraku was closing in and I needed to get out of there. The compound in question was out in the redmond barrens, and as I tried to keep a low profile, the star never saw it as necessary to come after me. I built up my defenses over time (I think the defenses on the place alone were probably well over a million dollars worth). And where did the 66 acres come from?? According to my calculations, my entire compound (including the kill zone surrounding it where the mines were positioned) was under 5 acres.

2) While I do have a monstrous network (I think I had 30-40 contacs written on my sheet when I retired), that wasn't the method I used to procure the C-12. In actuallity, I bought it from Ares. I know some people are going to start jumping up and down about the fact that any corp is highly unlikely to provide a runner with anywhere near that amount of C12. Normally, I'd agree, but I:

a) Was probably their most reliable runner and had no reason to damage a good working relationship with them by turning on them and

b) informed them that I was going to need it to engage in a shadow war against another AAA corp, and the idea of damaging a competitor with little risk to themselves appealed to them.

They were willing to bend their rules (especially since I had cash ready to pay for it). Since I was buying it in bulk from Ares (who WILL have large quantities of the stuff available), I hardly needed to roll my street contacts who have to try to scrounge the stuff up.

Net result, whatever sammies showed up to play got more of a bang than they bargained for. I seriously doubt that they will be able to identify all of the bodies, so we should be presumed dead, and with the ensuing corp. war between Renraku and Wuxing, both should have their hands to full to go poking around for me for a while. Ares lost their most proficient runner, but that was about to happen anyways. Both Ares and Cross now get to sit back and watch Renraku and Wuxing go for eachother in a war they helped create (with no chance of it coming back to haunt them in the corp. court, since the only person who knows about it is me), a situation I expect they and the other AAAs will try to exploit for their own advantage. I, on the other hand, am off to Berlin, since neither corp has a strong presence there and I am not known to have ties with S-K (I do, but they are small time ties, nothing on the order of what I had with Ares for example). It's a nice nuetral city where I can dissapear from radar.

And, as Quix said, a great way to end a campaign :grinbig:
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BitBasher
post Mar 29 2004, 05:47 PM
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your reasons are somewhat valid, but playind devil's advocate, theres no way that 6 tons of plastic explosives could have likely been aquired any way except like a situation above, and then when it's used it paints a giant flaming bullseye to Ares, all of it. IMHO this is the most supreme reason for them not to let you have it, but hey, to each his own.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Mar 29 2004, 05:57 PM
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QUOTE (A Clockwork Lime)
That's because it's one of those "duh" rules that don't need to be stated.

Sure don't need to be stated, because such a rule would be (or is, whatever) pretty silly. For many items it doesn't matter. But then you try to look for APDS ammo for a machine gun -- 10 rounds at a time? Or crossbow bolts -- 1 bolt at a time? Such items are generally found in far larger batches, which such a rule would be quite incapable of simulating.

My understanding of the prolificacy of explosives in the black market leads me to believe that they, too, would often be found in far larger batches than 1kg at a time. Probably not hundreds of kgs at a time either, but, considering the amount of explosives you can find in quarries and mining and constuction sites, a dozen or more kg could easily "fall in your lap" in a very short time span without too much contact-shuffling.

That said, your house rule (or interpretation of the Availability rules, or whatever) works quite well indeed for most items. Silly results will only come up with a few items, such as mentioned above, which is not a serious problem.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Mar 29 2004, 06:00 PM
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Tom Collins
post Mar 29 2004, 06:16 PM
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Generally, I just wing the results for players trying to get stuff. Doesn't make sense to me for players to get all ammo in 10 round groups, so I usually let them get "clips" (with a clip being however many bullets the gun holds in one clip or mag). For something like explosives, A fixer could probably hook them up with 5-10 kilos if he rolled well ("this crate of C-12 just happened to come into my possession yesterday"), but I can and will limit it if I don't want the players to have large quantities ("Sorry chummers, I had some just yesterday, but I'll be damned if you aren't the fourth person loking for some. Only got a brick of the stuff left. 2 kilos gonna do ya?").
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Steel Machine
post Apr 1 2004, 05:25 AM
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Disclaimer: As long as you're having fun with your own game there is no need to worry about my obsessive compulsive ravings.


Something has been bothering me here and it took a few days for me to place my finger on it, but I think I have it.

QUOTE ("Tom Collins")
While I do have a monstrous network (I think I had 30-40 contacs written on my sheet when I retired), that wasn't the method I used to procure the C-12.


Lets look at little closer at what follows here and see if anyone else had the same thoughts I did.

QUOTE
In actuallity, I bought it from Ares. I know some people are going to start jumping up and down about the fact that any corp is highly unlikely to provide a runner with anywhere near that amount of C12.


You're correct a lot of people would certainly wonder what Corporation in their right mind would consider giving any criminal, even a loyal criminal this quantity of explosives.

QUOTE
Normally, I'd agree, but I:

a) Was probably their most reliable runner and had no reason to damage a good working relationship with them by turning on them and


It's certainly reasonable that your character had a better than average relationship with Ares, after all we've seen this before in the books-the story at the begining of Cybertech is a perfect example in my own mind. However I think in this particular instance that relationship would have been severly tested in my own game.

A good reputation is a greta thing, and will take you all sorts of places, but dude this complex and its security is just nuts. Dude even five or so acres in the Barrens is pretty likely to be noticed with this sort of security. (Now I admit that your description was brief, and did not include any deceptive measures taken to cover and conceal your asset's, so I could be at least a little off base.)

In my own game you'd have received a visit from the friendly boys in blue pretty early on, and maybe earned some SWAT/FRT attention.

Not to mention the subatomic fireball this would have caused, and the media/police/EMT coverage that would have illicited. You used about half the yeild of the bomb used in Hiroshima- so we're talking what? A 8000 foot mushroom cloud? Not to mention any utilities outages and damages you'd have caused to add tot he secondary and tertiary effects.

QUOTE
b) informed them that I was going to need it to engage in a shadow war against another AAA corp, and the idea of damaging a competitor with little risk to themselves appealed to them.


Huh?

Did you just say "Hey I'm going to war. Support me." This is just pretty hard for me to swallow. First of all Ares is a MegaCorporation, with vast resources and an agenda of its own. Unless your little war fit into their agenda, and stood little chance of damaging their carefully crafted public image, not to mention the risks of Corp War-which admittedly by Canon is considered to be a pretty scary subject matter.

Now it does sound like you're playing a pretty powerful character (Please don't take that statement as an accussation or an attempt to say the evil M word. The simple fact is a player character declaring war on a Mega is a powerful character, and some people enjoy that level of gaming, and it certainly has its palce. Not to mention people do play and earn karma, cash and such.) so maybe this is the sort of thing characters at that level do.

Regardless I think that common sense says there are more than a few flaws in the logic here. Which is okay-I mean it is just a game after all.

QUOTE
Since I was buying it in bulk from Ares (who WILL have large quantities of the stuff available), I hardly needed to roll my street contacts who have to try to scrounge the stuff up.


Ah but how much is a large quantity? Also if I were your GM the first thing that would have come to mind is the ATF and FBI reaction to a MegaCorporation, even one so closely associated with the UCAS government, coming up missing, losing or plains elling that much explosive.

Even if you subscribe to the school of thought in which Mega's are nigh god like, it'd be hard to move this much (of this particular type of stock) with out someone taking notice and saying, "Hey wait a minute!"
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sidartha
post Apr 1 2004, 05:49 AM
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A great deal of the things you bring up in your post are covered by how the GM likes to run his/her game. Mind you that my GM would never allow this level of power or that many contacts or that many resources in my game, but hey thats my loss :( .
QUOTE
Dude even five or so acres in the Barrens is pretty likely to be noticed with this sort of security

Read New Seattle in the Redmond Barrens section it says that the only factorys that still exist are little more than midevil castles complete with walls, razor wire and fire zones. It's my guess that is where this expansive complex came from.
QUOTE
the ATF and FBI reaction to a MegaCorporation, even one so closely associated with the UCAS government, coming up missing, losing or plains elling that much explosive.

Ares is extraterritorial and thus the dreaded ATF, FBI, Homeland Secuity have no jurisdiction. Maybe the CIA.
Anyway it's still an amusing topic and I'm glad to see it brought back form the grave ;)
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CardboardArmor
post Apr 1 2004, 05:54 AM
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QUOTE (sidartha)
Ares is extraterritorial and thus the dreaded ATF, FBI, Homeland Secuity have no jurisdiction. Maybe the CIA.
Anyway it's still an amusing topic and I'm glad to see it brought back form the grave ;)

Granted, yes, but you're using/storing/transporting those fine Ares explosives on Seattle aka UCAS territory.

Once those explosives leave Ares Corp. property and the UCAS boys and girls get a good whiff of the amount you have, they're liable to simultaneously go 'wtf' and do something about it. They can't very well block the sale (overtly anyway), as that's entirely within Ares' right to do business but they can however go after the end buyer unless he has a proper permit.

Far as I know, nobody outside the military or the megas has due cause to own that much C-12.
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CardboardArmor
post Apr 1 2004, 05:55 AM
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Whoa. That was weird...

Anyway, this was just a double post.
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Steel Machine
post Apr 1 2004, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE ("sidartha")
A great deal of the things you bring up in your post are covered by how the GM likes to run his/her game.


Very true, and like I said it was just my own thoughts, and not an attack on his game. By the way thanks to Tom Collins and his group for letting me use them as a punching bag.

QUOTE
Read New Seattle in the Redmond Barrens section it says that the only factorys that still exist are little more than midevil castles complete with walls, razor wire and fire zones. It's my guess that is where this expansive complex came from.


Ah there is our fundamnetal difference-I think New seattle is a steaming pile of sh@t.

But ignoring my personal preferences, lets examine what you have said. Factories in the barrens have become virtual fortresses in order to operate because of the various unsavory elements found int he barrens.

So various Corporations-because whom else has the money to do this and the need for secrecy?-build these sites up, and maybe a few smaller operations who are trying to stay where they are because they cannot afford to relocate. Does that sound reasonable?

So when Joe Runner decides to purchase one of these facilities a few things come to my mind immediately:

  • Why are they selling the facility? Is it outdated? Has it outlived its usefullness or has it simply become too exspensive to maintain?

  • If it isn't why sell to Joe Runner when legitimate buyers likely exsist? I mean selling to a criminal is bad public relations at the least. I mean even setting aside the difficulties of owning property illegally, let alone property with that much weaponry and explosives settign about (even disguised a risky proposition), some one will know of the sale. How would the other Corporations feel about this venture on the players part?

  • If it is old or too exspensive for a Corporation to run, how does a Player Character afford it?


Those are just what come immediately to mind, and would be the questions I'd ask my own players if they proposed this. I am certainly not saying it can't be done, simply illustrating how difficult it could be.

QUOTE
Ares is extraterritorial and thus the dreaded ATF, FBI, Homeland Secuity have no jurisdiction.


Like Card Board Armor said this is true to a point. Read Corporate Shadowfiles and you will see that certain environmental laws still apply, despite their rampant lack of enforcement, to extraterritorial corporations, as well as national laws applying the moment you leave "Ares".

I'd also be willing that in certain arenas the corporations stand to benefit more by cooperating than they do by simply telling the UCAs to go frag itself. Not in every occassion, but in some.

Plus imagine the public relations blow when these explosives, which certainly can be traced back to Ares production facilities (Currently most explosives are built with chemical taggants in them), are linked to Ares and the criminal mastermind who used them.

For me this is a lose lose situation for Ares.



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Tom Collins
post Apr 2 2004, 05:04 PM
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First of all, I did not have nearly that quantity of C-12 up until the very last run. It was not stored in my compound for any appreciable time, and the boys in blue and FBI/ATF have to get warrants and the like to come storming in.

Now, to adress the size of the blast. Someone said it is half the power of the warhead dropped on Hiroshima. I would beg to differ, as that was a 12 kilo[I]ton weapon. that means it had the same type of explosion as 12,000 tons of dynamite. I had 5000Kg, or about 11,000lbs, or 5.5 tons of C12. While the rules for explosives don't give us any conversion factors to go from C-12 to dynamite, I think it is safe to say that 1 lb of C-12 is not as deadly as over 1000 lbs of dynamite (as would be the case if the assertation made was correct). The blast was no where near that of a nuclear detonation (of even the smallest nulear weapons). Also note that Ares could very well make the C-12 without the tracer in it. If they are going to use it on their own land, then why bother putting in a tracer? I'd be surprised indeed if all the megas didn't have some C-12 lying around without anything to identify where it came from.

As for going to war with the corp, I was hardly going to stand toe to toe and slug it out with them. Notice the entire point of what I did was to FAKE MY OWN DEATH. I fed Ares a line of BS that it was worthwhile for them to accept (I don't doubt that they may not have believed that I was telling all of my plans, and probably had me watched).The only corp war I was involved in was the one I started by feeding corps misinformation.

In response to the comments about the compound, I didn't exactly have all of the weapons out in the open. Everything was well hidden, and I hardly advertised my presence. The locals knew not to snoop and were willing to leave me alone (heck, I went out of my way to help them out by acting as a fence for them if they had stuff to unload, no questions asked about its origin, and making the area around my compound a "nuetral zone" for the local gangs. Locals liked being able to go someplace where they didn't have to worry about being caught up in a firefight between rival street punks.) All in all, the defences were activated only 2 times in the whole campaign, with the second being when the sammies attacked (The first time a corp goon who was trying to infiltrate my place trod on a mine). Driving past my compound, all you would have seen is a large warehouse/facility of some sort with a fence around it in the middle of a lot of broken down, abandoned buildings. When I bought it originally, BTW, it was nothing more than a gutted structure. Didn't buy the facility fully operational and with defences included.

As for bashing on the game, don't worry about it. It was a power game and I have no problems saying so. Fun to play games like that every once in a while. I realize some people can't stand games where the PCs aren't scrapping the mud for a living. I find both can be fun, depending on what I feel like. :D
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 2 2004, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (Tom Collins)
While the rules for explosives don't give us any conversion factors to go from C-12 to dynamite

Not directly, but indirectly they do. If you consider dynamite to be a "Commercial Explosive", the rate is 16. Should also be noted that nuclear weapon power estimates are given in TNT.

5,000kg of C-12 could be considered to be the equivalent of 80 tonnes of TNT, which is a small fraction of the 12.5-16kT of the Hiroshima nuke. Still fucking huge, enough to completely flatten everything in a 2-3 block radius and vaporize anyone close by.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Apr 3 2004, 12:26 AM
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BitBasher
post Apr 2 2004, 09:59 PM
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That's not entirely right, kilotons is measured in imerial tons, which is 2000 lb. 1000 kg = 2200 lb. so youre generally right but your conversion is off by 10% or so.
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Neon Tiger
post Apr 2 2004, 10:37 PM
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To adress the original question, my character Maelstrom will very probably go out with a really big bang. Why? When you have a extented area elemental manipulation spell and around 20 dice to cast it with, it is going to be a helluva sight. It might not destroy really that much stuff, but it's gonna kill pretty much anyone with out some really heavy hardened armour.
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3278
post Apr 2 2004, 11:58 PM
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Assuming the initial information is correct, and that the /compound/ [and not just the minefield] is 270,000 square meters, and that there was 5,000kg of C-12:

270,000 square meters is about 520 meters per side, correct? 520m x 520m = 270400. So that's about half a kilometer per side, or 1,700 feet, or about a third of a mile per side, which does, in fact, come out to about 66.7 acres.

As for the blast, let's refer to Page 283, SR3:
QUOTE
The Damage Code is (Rating)D per kilogram. Use the following formula for multiple kilograms: (Rating x sqrt[kilograms])D. The Power of the blast is reduced by the base rating per meter.

So we have a base rating of 12, for 12D damage for a single kilogram. For 5,000 kilograms, we have (12 x [70.7])D, or 848D. The Power is reduced by 12 per meter, for 848/12, or 70 meters.

Since we don't know if he did anything more than just putting a giant cube in the middle of the floor, we'll use the optional explosives rules on Page 119:
QUOTE
Under the optional grenade/explosives damage rule, the gamemaster uses the Power of a grenade/explosive to stage the damage it causes. In other words, the gamemaster rolls a number of dice equal to half the grenade/explosive's Power (round up) against a Target Number 4. Then the gamemaster usues the successes from this test to stage up the grenade/explosive's Damage Level.

Rolling 424 dice against a Target Number 4 should yield about 212 successes. For every two successes, the Power increases by one [since we're already at D Damage Level]. That makes the Power of the blast 1060D, with a blast radius of 1060/12, or 88 meters. We don't know anything about the building the explosives were housed in, so we can't check for chunky salsa.

Obviously, Shadowrun's explosives rules are just stupid. Nevertheless, this is the result of applying them. [Please correct any misapplications of mine.]
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 3 2004, 12:22 AM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
kilotons is measured in imerial tons

/me fires up Google

It seems an "Imperial ton" is an avoirdupois long ton, a now more or less obsolete unit that is the equivalent of 2,240lbs or ~1,016.047kg metric. The standard American ton is apparently the avoirdupois short ton, which equals 2,000lbs or ~907.1847kg. And what I called the ton above, 1,000kg metric, should be spelled "tonne" instead.

I could find three numbers commonly quoted as the yield of the Hiroshima bomb (Little Boy): 14.5kt (Howstuffworks.Com among a few others), 12.5/13kt (~50 relevant hits for 'hiroshima "12.5kt"' and 'hiroshima "13kt"' put together) and 15-16kt (~80 relevant hits). There seems to be no clear geographic division here, with just as many US sites as European sites for all the searches.

We're looking at 14.25kt +/- 1.75kt even before you start messing with units, so it doesn't really matter whether you're talking about tonnes or tons (and which tons).

However, I'd be interested in reading any source you might have on nuclear weapon yield measurements, or knowing where you got the imperial ton from.
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Tom Collins
post Apr 3 2004, 03:27 PM
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Bah, now I found where that 66 acres is coming from. Quix is a physicist, which means sometimes multiplication is beyond him (give him an ODE or PDE any day and he's happy, 3rd grade math he flounders with). Ignore his 270,000 number. It was closer to 5 acres in size (anyone wanna bet that he messed up his decimal places again? I swear, the man can't work with numbers at all....)
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3278
post Apr 3 2004, 05:10 PM
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The kiloton is equal to 1,000 metric tons of TNT. A metric ton is 1,000kg, or 2,204.6 pounds. A metric ton really should be considered one megagram.

It is not difficult to see the correlation between the power of TNT and the power of C-12 in Shadowrun. It'd be easier if I had Excel here. [Then I could double-check my possibly dubious mental math and application of Shadowrun's rounding rules, too.] Anyway, you can kind of graph it out in your head.

1kg of Commercial Explosive
Rating 3, base Damage 3D, -3 blast per meter, average of one success or two, for a maximum of 4D, 2 meter blast radius.

1kg of C-12
Rating 12, base Damage 12D, -12 blast per meter, average of 6 successes, average of 15D, 2 meter blast radius.

10kg of Commercial Explosive
Rating 3, base Damage 3D, -3 blast per meter, [3 x sqrt10]D, or 9D, average of 4 successes, average of 11D, 4 meter blast radius.

10kg of C-12
Rating 12, base Damage 12D, -12 blast per meter, [12 x sqrt10]D, or 37D, average of 18 successes, average of 55D, 5 meter blast radius.

100kg of Commercial Explosive
Rating 3, base Damage 3D, -3 blast per meter, [3 x sqrt100]D, or 30D, average of 15 successes, average of 37D, 13 meter blast radius.

100kg of C-12
Rating 12, base Damage 12D, -12 blast per meter, [12 x sqrt100]D, or 120D, average of 60 successes, average of 150D, 13 meter blast radius.

1000kg of Commercial Explosive [one metric ton]
Rating 3, base Damage 3D, -3 blast per meter, [3 x sqrt1000]D, or 94D, average of 47 successes, average of 117D, 39 meter blast radius.

1000kg of C-12 [one metric ton]
Rating 12, base Damage 12D, -12 blast per meter, [12 x sqrt1000]D, or 379D, average of 189 successes, average of 491D, 41 meter blast radius.

5000kg of Commercial Explosive
Rating 3, base Damage 3D, -3 blast per meter, [3 x sqrt5000]D, or 212D, average of 106 successes, average of 265D, 89 meter blast radius.

5000kg of C-12 [The Tom Collins Device]
Rating 12, base Damage 12D, -12 blast per meter, [12 x sqrt5000]D, or 848D, average of 212 successes, average of 954D, 80 meter blast radius.

1000000kg of Commercial Explosive [one thousand metric tons, or one kiloton]
Rating 3, base Damage 3D, -3 blast per meter, [3 x sqrt1000000]D, or 3000D, average of 1500 successes, average of 3750D, 1250 meter blast radius.

1000000kg of C-12 [one thousand metric tons, or one kiloton*]
Rating 12, base Damage 12D, -12 blast per meter, [12 x sqrt1000000]D, or 12000D, average of 6000 successes, average of 15000D, 1250 meter blast radius.

Obviously, the fact that Shadowrun always rounds down, and the quantum granularity of Damage to one meter, have some strange effects on what is already a pretty strange way of making explosives work in Shadowrun.

My ultimate question in this case is why C-12 was used at all, since an atomic bomb [or its cousin the neutron bomb] would have been much more effective, and probably cheaper. I suppose the character might not have been smart enough to build one. One wonders as well why no stats for atomic devices are given in Shadowrun. I suppose the developers...ah, well, nevermind.

*Although in this case, the "kiloton" is useless except as a standard of comparison to the megagram of TNT, since C-12 is obviously not a standard to which we compare atom bombs.
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Zazen
post Apr 3 2004, 07:12 PM
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QUOTE (3278)
My ultimate question in this case is why C-12 was used at all, since an atomic bomb [or its cousin the neutron bomb] would have been much more effective, and probably cheaper. I suppose the character might not have been smart enough to build one.

While it's not unreasonable for a skilled person to put one together, it is rather difficult to obtain the necessary fuel.
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BitBasher
post Apr 3 2004, 07:39 PM
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This of course makes me wonder why a country that does NOT use the metric system used a metric method of measurement for the yeild on a device which it built. :P

Us Americans are really goofy bastards sometimes :D
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Herald of Verjig...
post Apr 3 2004, 08:32 PM
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QUOTE (BitBasher)
This of course makes me wonder why a country that does NOT use the metric system used a metric method of measurement for the yeild on a device which it built. :P

As was stated elsewhere, they didn't. The reason the math is done according to such a fallacy is that the SR explosive rules don't convert will into pounds. They don't convert well into physics either, but that is a different debate.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 3 2004, 11:06 PM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE (BitBasher)
This of course makes me wonder why a country that does NOT use the metric system used a metric method of measurement for the yeild on a device which it built. :P

As was stated elsewhere, they didn't.

Where was this stated? BitBasher himself mentioned earlier that kTs are Imperial tons, but apparently he changed his mind since then. Do you have some other source?

QUOTE
SR explosive rules don't convert will into pounds.

Why not? Working that little multiplier into any of the calculations above would be extremely simple. It's always easier to do the math in metric (since the rules are in metric, and math in general is a lot easier to do in metric), but using the multiplier in the beginning and on the result is no problem at all.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Apr 4 2004, 12:07 AM
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QUOTE (Austere Emancipator)
QUOTE
SR explosive rules don't convert will into pounds.

Why not?

Because, that little multiplier is just converting them back into kg before the rest of the math is applied. You can track the numbers in pounds, but you will convert them back to kg before calculating effective blast, whether you admit that is a stage of the process is irrelevant. Once the square root is taken, there is no easy process to convert the resultant number into the proper result.

As for the ton definition, this dictionary associates the kiloton and megaton with the British definition, while not stating exactly which size of ton is used as the base.
[edit]and yet other dictionaries associate it with the metric ton. Leading to a final conclusion that no one bothered to clarify which ton they were using when bragging about explosive potential in the 40's
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Zazen
post Apr 4 2004, 12:14 AM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
Once the square root is taken, there is no easy process to convert the resultant number into the proper result.

Simply multiply by about two thirds (.674...).
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Herald of Verjig...
post Apr 4 2004, 12:24 AM
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I need to try posting while awake more often.

Yes, you can multiply the result by ~0.67 and retain the usually explosive rules.
Ignare my claims above, √10 = √2*√5, so yes you can convert from √pounds to √kg directly.

You're still converting, just at a different stage.
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Steel Machine
post Apr 4 2004, 03:03 AM
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3278
post Apr 4 2004, 03:07 AM
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Listen to me: The kiloton is equal to 1,000 metric tons of TNT. A metric ton is 1,000kg, or 2,204.6 pounds. A metric ton really should be considered one megagram. The reason these standards are used is because they are scientific standards, and the development and measurement of the first atomic device was a scientific endeavor. Anyone who doubts that the kiloton is equal to 1,000 metric tons can message me privately, and I will provide sufficient proof to allay any doubts you might have. Otherwise, simply trust that I know what I am talking about, and move on.
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John Campbell
post Apr 4 2004, 04:05 AM
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Given that the actual difference between a 1000kg metric ton and a 2200 pound long ton is less than a quarter of a percent, I really don't think it makes any difference which you use. Especially not when discussing a subject that has as many fuzzy external influences as explosive power.
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Zazen
post Apr 4 2004, 04:46 AM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
You're still converting, just at a different stage.

Yeah, I agree with what you said about converting SR to pounds being a pain. If you set it all up beforehand then it's still a bunch of work, and if you don't then you're stopping the game to do mental algebra and go whip out a calculator to find 1/sqrt(2.2) or some other arcane value.
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Moonstone Spider
post Apr 4 2004, 05:38 AM
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Metric vs. Imperial Kilotons:
Does it really matter if you take Deadly plus 70 Boxes of Overdamage, or Deadly plus 72?
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Kanada Ten
post Apr 4 2004, 06:28 AM
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Never get between people and Math. Speaking of new Totems...
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CardboardArmor
post Apr 4 2004, 06:33 AM
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Getting between people and the math they argue is like getting between twh hovertrains, one of which left Seattle at 2345 hrs. and traveled towards Denver at 123 MPH and the other left Denver on the same track at 2300 hrs. and traveled towards Seattle at 150 MPH. At which point do they collide, destroying themselves and you?
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3278
post Apr 4 2004, 12:18 PM
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QUOTE (John Campbell)
Given that the actual difference between a 1000kg metric ton and a 2200 pound long ton is less than a quarter of a percent, I really don't think it makes any difference which you use.

A 1000kg metric ton /is/ a 2200 pound "long ton."
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3278
post Apr 4 2004, 12:20 PM
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QUOTE (Kanada Ten)
Never get between people and Math. Speaking of new Totems...

That's not a new totem: it's called being a hermetic mage; the shaman who walks with mathematics.
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Austere Emancipa...
post Apr 4 2004, 01:30 PM
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QUOTE (3278)
A 1000kg metric ton /is/ a 2200 pound "long ton."

You mean that the avoirdupois long ton was created to be the same as the metric ton? Or how are they the same? Because they aren't exactly the same in size, as I'm sure you know.
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3278
post Apr 4 2004, 03:52 PM
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The other 4.6 pounds were dropped for convenience, a difference of 4.6 pounds being found acceptable, while the 204.6 pound difference of the short ton was not.
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Herald of Verjig...
post Apr 4 2004, 06:14 PM
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QUOTE (CardboardArmor @ Apr 4 2004, 01:33 AM)
Getting between people and the math they argue is like getting between twh hovertrains, one of which left Seattle at 2345 hrs. and traveled towards Denver at 123 MPH and the other left Denver on the same track at 2300 hrs. and traveled towards Seattle at 150 MPH.  At which point do they collide, destroying themselves and you?

Assuming a track length approximately equal to this trip plan:

At 0917 hours the next day, the two will crash 1172.8 miles from Seattle killing all direct observes bringing up the zen-like question: "if two trains collide and no one lives to tell about it, did they ever actually exist as trains?" This question will be on all the news channels for a few months before the anchors shave their heads and start handing out flowers in airports.

[edit]thanks, I forgot that then tens digit only goes to 60
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Shockwave_IIc
post Apr 4 2004, 06:20 PM
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0877?? so is that 0917 then :P
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Zazen
post Apr 4 2004, 06:22 PM
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QUOTE (Herald of Verjigorm)
QUOTE (CardboardArmor @ Apr 4 2004, 01:33 AM)
Getting between people and the math they argue is like getting between twh hovertrains, one of which left Seattle at 2345 hrs. and traveled towards Denver at 123 MPH and the other left Denver on the same track at 2300 hrs. and traveled towards Seattle at 150 MPH.  At which point do they collide, destroying themselves and you?

Assuming a track length approximately equal to this trip plan:

At 0877 hours the next day, the two will crash 1172.8 miles from Seattle

It's a pretty boring problem, though. Try this one on:

Getting between people and the math they argue is like getting between twh hovertrains, one of which left Seattle at 2345 hrs. and traveled towards Denver at 150 MPH and the other left Seattle on the same track at 2300 hrs. and traveled towards Denver at 123 MPH. At which point do they collide, destroying themselves and you? :vegm:
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TimeKeeper
post Apr 4 2004, 08:53 PM
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QUOTE
Getting between people and the math they argue is like getting between twh hovertrains, one of which left Seattle at 2345 hrs. and traveled towards Denver at 150 MPH and the other left Seattle on the same track at 2300 hrs. and traveled towards Denver at 123 MPH. At which point do they collide, destroying themselves and you?


So two trains leave towards the same destination, on the same track, at two different times, with the later train going slower...

Wait thinking sdrawkcab here... damn dyslexia... So the later train (11:45 pm) is going at 150 and the earlier (11:00pm) is going at 123.
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Zazen
post Apr 4 2004, 09:09 PM
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Right, the faster one will catch up to the slow one and hit it from behind. But when and where does this happen?

I misread one of those normal collision problems in middle school and spent a long time fooling around with this kind of problem, only to discover that it's deceptively simple.
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A Clockwork Lime
post Apr 4 2004, 09:28 PM
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The slower train left 45 minutes earlier, meaning it's only 112.5 miles ahead of the faster train once it leaves the station. The faster train gains 27 miles on the slower one every hour. So 112.5 miles divided by 27 miles per hour means it'll take about 250 minutes to catch up, thus the crash will occur at approximately 3:55am, right?

That's just based on my shitty reasoning abilities, though. Math's never been my strong point.

But regardless, what's it have to do with the main topic?
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Zazen
post Apr 4 2004, 09:36 PM
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Yeah, that's about right, 'cept you messed up the numbers a little. It's 92.25 miles ahead, and go from there.

I think I should have emphasized the question of where it happens, thus obscuring the easy route to the solution.

QUOTE
But regardless, what's it have to do with the main topic?


Absolutely nothing. :P
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A Clockwork Lime
post Apr 4 2004, 09:49 PM
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Oops. I used the faster train's speed rather than the slower one for the initial distance. Bah.

So that means it takes place 3 hours and 25 minutes after the faster one left, or at 3:10am. The faster train would have traveled about 512.5 miles in that time, so that's where it'd have taken place. The exact location would depend on the track; I doubt if it's perfectly straight... I think.
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CardboardArmor
post Apr 4 2004, 10:10 PM
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You people completely took my joke and drained it of all possible humor. Just like a Math/Engineering major would.

I think I'll go curl up in the corner and cry now.

For reference: CardboardArmor is majoring in Biology.
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