Sharpshooter Dice Pool, Pronomancer, eat your heart out Options

[longbowrocks]

I'm in a rush, so I'll keep this short (by the way, this is not a starting character. this is the max):

• 7 Elf
• +1 Metagenetic improvement (AGI)
• +1 Enhanced Attribute (AGI)
• +1 Genetic Optimization (AGI)
• +4 muscle toner
• +1 suprathyroid gland
• 6 longarms
• +1 Aptitude
• +3 adept improved ability (longarms)
• +2 specialization (sniper rifles)
• +2 smartgun system
• +2 home ground
• +1 synch
• +4 tacnet
• 6 edge

Right there we have 42 DP under the right conditions (you need to see the target attack something first, you need to spend edge, etc). If you take 5 consecutive take aim actions (1/2 your skill) then that's 47 DP.

That was for a partially functional character. Here's the real deal. Instead of the muscle toner and suprathyroid gland, get a cybertorso and two customized cyber arms at your normal natural attribute rating, then enhance them to 15 AGI. Using the optional rules for redlining your cyberlimbs in Augmentation, double that to 30 AGI for one use.

You will need 6+ BOD, 6+ WIL, and an autodoc or teammate on standby to pull this off. Allow me to explain, you take stun damage equal to 2X the boost you give to your limb,resisted with BOD , so with the cyber and attributes, you'll have a combined condition monitor of 25 + 6 overflow. Just enough to survive 30 Stun in the worst case.

Anyway, 62 DP with that last touch.

[Christian Lafay]

What the f*ck are you trying to make?! The last shot from Wanted?!
But, I like the thought exercise. Kudos.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

*Shakes Head* Why?

[longbowrocks]

*mumbles* Damn dragons and their magic. Let's see who's OP now. *mumbles*
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[CanRay]

*Shakes Head* Why?

Because squeezing out the last bit of math to make "The Best At What I Do" is a theme in RPGs for a long time now.

It has it's place, sometimes, however.

[Draco18s]

Because squeezing out the last bit of math to make "The Best At What I Do" is a theme in RPGs for a long time now.

It has it's place, sometimes, however.

The most epic thought exercise I've ever seen (and no, don't ask me to find it again) was a D&D character who had 100 in every stat.

EVERY stat. All 6 attributes, armor, flat footed armor, touch armor, fort save, reflex save, will save...every single stat.

[Christian Lafay]

The most epic thought exercise I've ever seen (and no, don't ask me to find it again) was a D&D character who had 100 in every stat.

EVERY stat. All 6 attributes, armor, flat footed armor, touch armor, fort save, reflex save, will save...every single stat.

So help me Flying Spaghetti Monster, if you say Pun-Pun.....

But really, I had most of that with a level 20 Psion who infinite power points. It's doable, just not fun to put into play. The Konami Code is only fun for one-shots, mostly.

[longbowrocks]

The most epic thought exercise I've ever seen (and no, don't ask me to find it again) was a D&D character who had 100 in every stat.

EVERY stat. All 6 attributes, armor, flat footed armor, touch armor, fort save, reflex save, will save...every single stat.

What is this I don't even.
I though DnD was practically immune to powergaming in comparison to Shadowrun. Were all the stats pretty much the result of abusing a single mechanic?

[Christian Lafay]

What is this I don't even.
I though DnD was practically immune to powergaming in comparison to Shadowrun. Were all the stats pretty much the result of abusing a single mechanic?

You must not play much 3.5. One of my favorite characters could run around a European nation in six seconds and when he gets back to his starting point the entire nation bursts into flames.

[Glyph]

It's a dice pool exercise, like the pornomancer or the ultimate climber, that's all. The problem with them is that they can degenerate into questionable rules interpretations and illogical rules loopholes.

But for more straightforward bonuses, don't forget tacnet bonuses (although you would need either a lot of teammates or a lot of spotter drones to really get a decent boost out of it).

[longbowrocks]

D'oh. Forgot about that! Fixing now.
I am ashamed I didn't think of that. Especially since I'm currently playing a hacker.

[Rubic]

Note, the Elf is the same metatype for a Pornomancer... You could plan for this from the get-go, but you'll be a bit short on points. Also, you'll have to prioritize between shooting people personally, or convincing others to do it for you. Either way, what fun!?

[longbowrocks]

Note, the Elf is the same metatype for a Pornomancer... You could plan for this from the get-go, but you'll be a bit short on points. Also, you'll have to prioritize between shooting people personally, or convincing others to do it for you. Either way, what fun!?

Oh god. The agony. What will the rest of your party do?

[Udoshi]

+1 synch

OOoh! you forgot a dice.

Hint: Its related to synch.

You can even get it to pay for itself with a negative quality in augmentation.(though i am away from books, i'm fairly sure its aug, but might be RC)

[Cain]

What is this I don't even.
I though DnD was practically immune to powergaming in comparison to Shadowrun. Were all the stats pretty much the result of abusing a single mechanic?

Depends on the edition.

in 2e, it was all dependent on your ability score rolls. If you rolled high, you could easily be better off at first level than a higher-level character with lower stats. 3.0/3.5 didn't depend so much on ability scores, but you could combine feats, races, and prestige classes in such a way as to get insane benefits. Pun-Pun the infinite kobold is the worst example of this.

4e's a lot more resistant to breakage. You can still optimize the hell out of a character, but the differences aren't so glaring. Also, it's really difficult to end up with a gimped character in 4e.

[longbowrocks]

OOoh! you forgot a dice.

Hint: Its related to synch.

You can even get it to pay for itself with a negative quality in augmentation.(though i am away from books, i'm fairly sure its aug, but might be RC)

I'll look, but if I haven't found it by now, I probably never will.

[Glyph]

I think he's talking about (with a cooperative GM!) getting a permanent infusion, in this case Sideways, with the mysterious cyberware negative quality. Not sure I'd let that stack with Synch, though, since Synch is part of the "mix" of Sideways.

[longbowrocks]

I remember those now. 5 hits seems a little bit hard to reach though.

[Udoshi]

I think he's talking about (with a cooperative GM!) getting a permanent infusion, in this case Sideways, with the mysterious cyberware negative quality. Not sure I'd let that stack with Synch, though, since Synch is part of the "mix" of Sideways.

Bingo.

The benefit of Sideways is that its a +1 to combat tests, instead of a +1 after observing your opponent that Synch is.

In this case, the Permant Infusion negative quality would let you start with it. It has a heft downside, but, hey, its one way to do it.

[Elfenlied]

No Analyze Device and Possession spirits? I am disappoint...

[Blade]

If he's lucky, he can get an edge point more.
And he should also cast Analyze Device on the rifle and have a machine sprite inside.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Because squeezing out the last bit of math to make "The Best At What I Do" is a theme in RPGs for a long time now.

It has it's place, sometimes, however.

I'm Sorry... I just see absolutely no use in it whatsoever...(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[CanRay]

I'm Sorry... I just see absolutely no use in it whatsoever...(IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Testing for game balance. Give ideas to your group's munchkin/power gamer/rules lawyer and evaluate the result.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Testing for game balance. Give ideas to your group's munchkin/power gamer/rules lawyer and evaluate the result.

Maybe that's the Problem... We do not care about Edge Cases in the least. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[ggodo]

Testing for game balance. Give ideas to your group's munchkin/power gamer/rules lawyer and evaluate the result.

That's why I keep Longbow around!

[Draco18s]

So help me Flying Spaghetti Monster, if you say Pun-Pun.....

No, I don't know how it was done. Pun-Pun, however, isn't limited to 100s.

You must not play much 3.5. One of my favorite characters could run around a European nation in six seconds and when he gets back to his starting point the entire nation bursts into flames.

That spell (combo) got errata'd. Chuck E. Cheese is no longer valid. Footsteps of the Divine can no longer have it's duration enhanced via any means (the cheese comes from the fact that the spell increased the subject's base move speed by 10 feet per round, and can be ended early to give the subject "10 feet" times "rounds remaining" in extra movement for one turn: if you get the spell to last for 4 days that's 57,600 rounds....).

Testing for game balance. Give ideas to your group's munchkin/power gamer/rules lawyer and evaluate the result.

Or in some cases, giving it to a competent player. Iron Claw looks really well balanced. Until you realize that the developers never combined classes and races that were meant for each other. Their sample characters include a rabbit anamist ("barbarian" in D&D terms): the rabbit doesn't have a natural attack (e.g. claws) that get better per the class. Bat wizard: the only flying race paired with the only class that gets flight. Etc.
(Although a friend of mine did create a rather effective elephant rogue...)

[longbowrocks]

No Analyze Device and Possession spirits? I am disappoint...

As of 4A, I don't think the possession spirits will help. At least not while possessing me.

[longbowrocks]

If he's lucky, he can get an edge point more.

I thought of the edge earlier yesterday, but forgot about it later on. Thanks.

And he should also cast Analyze Device on the rifle and have a machine sprite inside.

I don't do magic. I have a vague idea of what it can do, but I don't know many of the specific spells. Would the bonus from analyze device stack with the machine sprite? Also, what would be the bonus from each? I won't have time to look it up at any point in the next few days.

[Rubic]

I don't do magic. I have a vague idea of what it can do, but I don't know many of the specific spells. Would the bonus from analyze device stack with the machine sprite? Also, what would be the bonus from each? I won't have time to look it up at any point in the next few days.

Considering that Resonance and Magic are mutually exclusive, then probably not, unless you have a L6 Technomancer contact just falling all over themselves to keep you supplied with sprites.

[DamienKnight]

Depends on the edition.

in 2e, it was all dependent on your ability score rolls. If you rolled high, you could easily be better off at first level than a higher-level character with lower stats. 3.0/3.5 didn't depend so much on ability scores, but you could combine feats, races, and prestige classes in such a way as to get insane benefits. Pun-Pun the infinite kobold is the worst example of this.

4e's a lot more resistant to breakage. You can still optimize the hell out of a character, but the differences aren't so glaring. Also, it's really difficult to end up with a gimped character in 4e.

Attribute impact did not really change between 2 and 3.5.

Prestige classes became awesome, which I suppose reduced the importance of stats... tho many of them are amplified by good stats. Not trolling, just saying... your wrong.

You are absolutely right about 4th edition. It is very resistant to breakage, mostly because they removed most of your ability to customize your character. Sucky way of fixing it, but it works.

I thought of the edge earlier yesterday, but forgot about it later on. Thanks.

I don't do magic. I have a vague idea of what it can do, but I don't know many of the specific spells. Would the bonus from analyze device stack with the machine sprite? Also, what would be the bonus from each? I won't have time to look it up at any point in the next few days.

With surge you can just barely get metagenetic improvement agility and exception agility, but your Positive Qualities are used up. No points for Lucky if you follow the normal 35BP limit.

For that matter, you cannot have Aptitude, Metagenetic Improvement AND Exceptional Agility, AND Adept. That exceeds the 35 bp limit by 20.

Also, lose the superthyroid and half the muscle toner and you can hit your 15 agility with adept powers with a legal starting character.

Also, you can get one more die with Enhanced Articulation. I am not sure about compatibility, but Reflex Records should give you a bonus skill die too.

[James McMurray]

For bursting, Lucky is better than an extra Agility.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Also, you can get one more die with Enhanced Articulation.

Enhanced Articulation does not apply to Combat Skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Faraday]

Enhanced Articulation does not apply to Combat Skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

I might note that it DOES, however, affect gymnastics dodging.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I might note that it DOES, however, affect gymnastics dodging.

Gymnastics is not a Combat Skill... Enhanced Articulation adds nothing to actual sharpshooting.

[Faraday]

Gymnastics is not a Combat Skill... Enhanced Articulation adds nothing to actual sharpshooting.

I'm just being pedantic for its own sake. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Rubic]

With surge you can just barely get metagenetic improvement agility and exception agility, but your Positive Qualities are used up. No points for Lucky if you follow the normal 35BP limit.

For that matter, you cannot have Aptitude, Metagenetic Improvement AND Exceptional Agility, AND Adept. That exceeds the 35 bp limit by 20.

Surge is technically on it's own BP limit. You spend the BP on the surge (5, 10, or 15), take that many points in negative qualities and then buy twice that many in positive qualities. Any overage counts towards your regular limit either way, so a 15 BP SuRGE with 20 extra points of SuRGEd Positive Qualities would cover all your positives regardless, and 20 pts of SuRGED flaws on a 5 BP SuRGE would cover 15 BP of your negative qualities limit. (you can check it in Runner's Companion, pg 73, bottom left corner)

[Metagenetic Improvement (20 BP) + Aptitude (10 BP) - 15 BP of negative metagenetic qualities] = only 15 BP SuRGE (positive quality). 20 pts left to play with for positives, and all of your negatives free for choosing.

Also, Aptitude can, technically and potentially, be purchased after character creation for twice the BP cost in Karma, with GM approval. Obviously subject to change from table to table, so YMMV.

[DamienKnight]

Enhanced Articulation does not apply to Combat Skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

Ah, i see the distinction there. So sensible that it adds to your perception, but not your martial arts. Clever.

[X-Kalibur]

Ah, i see the distinction there. So sensible that it adds to your perception, but not your martial arts. Clever.

Still wrong. The text states that it applies to Physical skills that are linked to Physical Attributes. Perception is linked to Intuition, which is not a physical attribute.

[Faraday]

Still wrong. The text states that it applies to Physical skills that are linked to Physical Attributes. Perception is linked to Intuition, which is not a physical attribute.

Indeed. Generally, it affects the athletics group as well as palming, infiltration, escape artistry, parachuting, and diving.

Also, Aptitude can, technically and potentially, be purchased after character creation for twice the BP cost in Karma, with GM approval. Obviously subject to change from table to table, so YMMV.

I could see that. Likely involves a bit of down-time to get that kind of ability. You won't be Florence Nightengale overnight.

[Rubic]

I also realized something else that would be potentially game-breaking...

Runner's Companion section on Metagenetic qualities lists rules for picking them up as Gene-tweaking...
Augmentation has a the Genetic Heritage quality at 10 BP that allows you to pick up ANY such gene-tweaking for no additional cost beyond that 10 BP. So, if your GM is a doormat, you could arguably get Metagenetic Improvement AND Genetic Optimizaiton for 10 BP each, totaling as much as Metagenetic Improvment as it's own quality, on its own.

Also, has there been any errata on Augmentation? The description for Genetic Heritage seems to me to indicate picking up the tweak without an essence loss ("... start play with one genetic modification for free"). Without errata, that's a little too open to interpretation (and therefor munchkinism).

[Draco18s]

Also, has there been any errata on Augmentation? The description for Genetic Heritage seems to me to indicate picking up the tweak without an essence loss ("... start play with one genetic modification for free"). Without errata, that's a little too open to interpretation (and therefor munchkinism).

There's been a discussion on that quote. The generally accepted meaning is "no nuyen cost." You still pay the essence.

[Makki]

No Analyze Device and Possession spirits? I am disappoint...

And where is the Machine Sprite enhancing the smartgun?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Ah, i see the distinction there. So sensible that it adds to your perception, but not your martial arts. Clever.

Nope, it does not add to Perception, because it is not based upon a Physical Stat (Perception is Intuition based)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

EDIT: Ooops, looks like X-Kalibur beat me to it.

[Mr. Smileys]

What about a Reflex Recorder for longarms. That should give you another +1 to your DP. And then taking the Krav-Maga Martial art for take aim as a free action. So in one IP you Take Aim x2 (1 free, 1 simple) then shoot and have a DP of 45.

Then you also take the Lucky quality giving you +1 edge putting you at a DP of 46 re-rolling all 6s.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

What about a Reflex Recorder for longarms. That should give you another +1 to your DP. And then taking the Krav-Maga Martial art for take aim as a free action. So in one IP you Take Aim x2 (1 free, 1 simple) then shoot and have a DP of 45.

Then you also take the Lucky quality giving you +1 edge putting you at a DP of 46 re-rolling all 6s.

Sorry, But I am going to have to ask this. What, exactly, is this going to do that 20 Dice would not? In the end, the target is dead whether the DP is 45 Dice or 20 Dice. I just see absolutely no use for this in the least.

[Mr. Smileys]

Sorry, But I am going to have to ask this. What, exactly, is this going to do that 20 Dice would not? In the end, the target is dead whether the DP is 45 Dice or 20 Dice. I just see absolutely no use for this in the least.

For killing the tank or Dragon (not Great Dragon) in one shot.

[Rubic]

Sorry, But I am going to have to ask this. What, exactly, is this going to do that 20 Dice would not? In the end, the target is dead whether the DP is 45 Dice or 20 Dice. I just see absolutely no use for this in the least.

It's the difference between the target becoming a corpse, and the target disappearing in a red puff of logic.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

For killing the tank or Dragon (not Great Dragon) in one shot.

*Shrug* Whatever... 20 Dice will kill a Dragon just as dead as 45.
The trick is to be in the right place at the right time to use those 20 Dice... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rubic]

*Shrug* Whatever... 20 Dice will kill a Dragon just as dead as 45.
The trick is to be in the right place at the right time to use those 20 Dice... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

with 45 dice, there are more right places and right times.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

with 45 dice, there are more right places and right times.

Killing a Dragon is SO outside the scope of the game that I don't even care... I have yet to see a need for more than 20 dice in any given test.

[Rubic]

Killing a Dragon is SO outside the scope of the game that I don't even care... I have yet to see a need for more than 20 dice in any given test.

You always need moar dakka! 'Nuff Dakka is hitting every point in space with every other point in space at every point in time. Until you can do that, you always need moar dakka!

[CanRay]

And, after *YOU* have that much Dakka, the next person down the line needs more.

[Christian Lafay]

Killing a Dragon is SO outside the scope of the game that I don't even care... I have yet to see a need for more than 20 dice in any given test.

SR3, jumping off a tall tower, throwing a grenade and timing it just right so the explosion creates a large burst of water that cushions the fall. Character retired, NPCed, and woke up (Thank you Platinum Docwagon) in a hospital with cards and flowers from the most well known runners in the area. But in my years of SR the only time I needed/wanted that many dice. Sometimes you love exploding dice TN and sometimes you don't. That time I didn't.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

SR3, jumping off a tall tower, throwing a grenade and timing it just right so the explosion creates a large burst of water that cushions the fall. Character retired, NPCed, and woke up (Thank you Platinum Docwagon) in a hospital with cards and flowers from the most well known runners in the area. But in my years of SR the only time I needed/wanted that many dice. Sometimes you love exploding dice TN and sometimes you don't. That time I didn't.

I See the problem now... You are trying to invade my Black Trenchcoat with your Pink Mohawk... Shame on you... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Christian Lafay]

I See the problem now... You are trying to invade my Black Trenchcoat with your Pink Mohawk... Shame on you... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Well I like to think it was a Mirror Shades game. An attempt at Black Trenchcoat but sometimes a Pink Mohawk is the only way you are walking/limping/crawling away from the situation.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well I like to think it was a Mirror Shades game. An attempt at Black Trenchcoat but sometimes a Pink Mohawk is the only way you are walking/limping/crawling away from the situation.

Point Taken... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

*Shrug* Whatever... 20 Dice will kill a Dragon just as dead as 45.
The trick is to be in the right place at the right time to use those 20 Dice... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You want 20+ dice anytime you're facing anything with 20+ dice.

I've never gone that far, but I've personally seen over 30 dice thrown for single tests, usually when facing something really huge. If you're fighting a Force 10 spirit without magic, you pretty much need 30 dice in order to reliably kill it.

Also, you have a higher chance of a critical success. 4 hits over the threshold means you kill a dragon with *style*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Christian Lafay]

You want 20+ dice anytime you're facing anything with 20+ dice.

I've never gone that far, but I've personally seen over 30 dice thrown for single tests, usually when facing something really huge. If you're fighting a Force 10 spirit without magic, you pretty much need 30 dice in order to reliably kill it.

Also, you have a higher chance of a critical success. 4 hits over the threshold means you kill a dragon with *style*. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Try getting a job then. Either goes really good or really bad.
Bad:
Johnson: "Sorry, you are too well know. I can't use you for this stealth mission. Know of anyone else who can do it?"

Good:
Target: "WHO'S COMING TO GET US?! FRAG THAT....!" -takes a .45 aspirin-
Johnson: "Uh.... I guess.... That counts..... Usual numbered account?"

[KarmaInferno]

I have yet to see a need for more than 20 dice in any given test.

Well, Availability Tests come to mind, especially if your GM requires a degrading dice pool.



-k

[Rubic]

Well, Availability Tests come to mind, especially if your GM requires a degrading dice pool.



-k

Considering the topic, that would then turn us to "Gun as a Skill" ala munckinism

[CanRay]

Considering the topic, that would then turn us to "Gun as a Skill" ala munckinism

"What's your Negotiation skill at?" "Ares Predator IV."

[Glyph]

What about a Reflex Recorder for longarms. That should give you another +1 to your DP. And then taking the Krav-Maga Martial art for take aim as a free action. So in one IP you Take Aim x2 (1 free, 1 simple) then shoot and have a DP of 45.

Then you also take the Lucky quality giving you +1 edge putting you at a DP of 46 re-rolling all 6s.

Nope. The reflex recorder won't help if you already have improved ability: 3, since the augmented skill cap is 10.

The diagnostics power of a sprite doesn't actually give bonus dice for shooting. It gives a bonus to use the device it is analyzing, and it is being used on the smartlink. So you get a bonus to your test to use your smartlink. Of course, using a smartlink doesn't involve a test, so no discernable effect.

Analyze device works, although that's really using the spell outside of its intended scope. But that's one of the benefits of threads like this - to show cheesy areas that need to be house ruled. Note that while the enhance aim spell doesn't directly give you any dice, it can negate range category penalties without the character needing to take aim. This means that you can use take aim to get bonuses, instead.

Possession spirits don't really work - the Agility is already at the augmented maximum, and the skill is the spirit's own - as compared to 10 + specialization for the character presented, and a spirit wouldn't be able to use things like the smartlink or tacnet. Theoretically, you could get a higher dice pool, but only because spirit Force (and therefore skill) is not capped - although in my opinion, both should be. Item attunement is similar. Theoretically, there is no limit to initiate grade, so a zillionth level initiate would have half a zillion bonus dice. In practice, you would have to be a 12th grade initiate to have +6 dice, and merely break even with the 6 dice you would lose from not being able to use the smartlink or tacnet.

[X-Kalibur]

"What's your Negotiation skill at?" "Ares Predator IV."

You're thinking too small. Never negotiate with less than a Ruger Super Warhawk.

[Faraday]

You're thinking too small. Never negotiate with less than a Ruger Super Warhawk.

This is a popular option at my table.

Killing a Dragon is SO outside the scope of the game that I don't even care... I have yet to see a need for more than 20 dice in any given test.

I have. My group tried taking on a group of gangers and the plan went tits up, one guy got blown away pretty quickly by SMG fire, the others managed to avoid the worst of the attacks. I, however, ended upon the receiving end of 2 wide bursts, 2 narrow bursts, and a couple hits off an ares pred. That was the stuff I hadn't managed to dodge/had the attacker glitch.

I had 6 edge (1-2 of it used already) and a ballistic soak pool of 16. I needed every last one of those dice. We managed to escape with one KIA, 1 with pretty bad physical wounds, one with a good chunk of stun, and then me with 1 stun damage.

[Rubic]

You're thinking too small. Never negotiate with less than a Ruger Super Warhawk.

Ruger is for the pro-negotiator. Pred IV is for the back-up face. Ingram Smartgun X is the negotation tool for the common man. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This is a popular option at my table.

I have. My group tried taking on a group of gangers and the plan went tits up, one guy got blown away pretty quickly by SMG fire, the others managed to avoid the worst of the attacks. I, however, ended upon the receiving end of 2 wide bursts, 2 narrow bursts, and a couple hits off an ares pred. That was the stuff I hadn't managed to dodge/had the attacker glitch.

I had 6 edge (1-2 of it used already) and a ballistic soak pool of 16. I needed every last one of those dice. We managed to escape with one KIA, 1 with pretty bad physical wounds, one with a good chunk of stun, and then me with 1 stun damage.

SO, you only sufferred 1 Stun... In the end, You really did not NEED greater than 16 Dice after all. 16 Dice was obviously enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[KarmaInferno]

Sometimes you want to just dominate with style, though.

One of the more memorable moments was my character back in 3rd Ed getting just hosed down with automatic weapons fire by a gang. He had enough armor to just stand there and soak it. (and it wasn't obvious armor, either).

After they finished emptying their clips, he just quirked an eyebrow and said, "Run."

After that soak (and a 20+ die Intimidate test), the gang scattered. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)



-k

[ElFenrir]

SO, you only sufferred 1 Stun... In the end, You really did not NEED greater than 16 Dice after all. 16 Dice was obviously enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm pretty sure(correct me if I'm wrong), he had 16 dice AND the Edge in there for exploding dice, which might count as extra dice.

So adding up extra exploded Edge dice would have taken that above 20.

Might I also give an example of someone simply trying to make a completely blind long range shot. What's the penalty on that? -14? If I HAD to do that i'd certainly want more than 20 dice.

Sure, it doesn't come up often. And hell, I can't think of any of my own characters that actually have a die pool AT 20 let alone above it(I think my one sammie, for his martial arts, rolls 9 Agl+7(Unarmed+Specialty), plus 1 Reflex Recorder and sometimes +1 Kick Attack if he takes it on his own for a total of 18 dice max, and that's his main and highest skil.

All it is is sometimes, we get ideas to do something silly. (And I'm Pink Mohawk through and through, so I support this. Well, with a side of 'Mirror Shades.' I'm not very Black Trenchcoat, nor have I ever been.) So we just play with numbers to see 'hey, what kinda funny thing that I'll probably never ever play can I make today?'

[Draco18s]

SO, you only sufferred 1 Stun... In the end, You really did not NEED greater than 16 Dice after all. 16 Dice was obviously enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

He spent edge. Which I would neither count as "more than 20 dice" nor would I count it as "16 was enough."

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

He spent edge. Which I would neither count as "more than 20 dice" nor would I count it as "16 was enough."

And still, his 16 Dice (with Edge) were enough... Which is my point. The Need for 20+ Dice is non-existant (because you would STILL have Edge there as well).

No worries, though... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Cain]

And still, his 16 Dice (with Edge) were enough... Which is my point. The Need for 20+ Dice is non-existant (because you would STILL have Edge there as well).

He rolled 20 dice, and that was enough. That's a bit like saying: "You don't need a skill over 1, since you can get your dice pool big enough without it." It might not be necessary, but it sure helps.

Besides which, once you start encountering high-powered opposition, you start needing those dice. A mundane street sam with a pistol has no chance of hurting a high-force spirit unless he's got a huge dice pool.

[Glyph]

It's hard to judge how "necessary" Edge is, because it isn't simply four or so extra dice. It either turns your whole dice pool into exploding dice, or lets you re-roll any dice that didn't get a success. The latter, I have found, can significantly increase your level of successes.

Shadowrun can be a very lethal game. Note that the example of Edge putting a dice pool over 20 didn't involve high-Force spirits or a great dragon, but gangers.

[Draco18s]

Shadowrun can be a very lethal game. Note that the example of Edge putting a dice pool over 20 didn't involve high-Force spirits or a great dragon, but gangers.

Gangers can, and will, kill you. Happened to a player in one of our games once. Decided to take his bike through the Barrens. Two low-level grunt mook gangers (with no cyber) tried to stop him. And succeeded. One shotgun blast at near point blank.

The PC survived the encounter, but it nearly killed him outright (and we hadn't even gotten to meet Mr. J yet).

[Ryu]

It's hard to judge how "necessary" Edge is, because it isn't simply four or so extra dice. It either turns your whole dice pool into exploding dice, or lets you re-roll any dice that didn't get a success. The latter, I have found, can significantly increase your level of successes.

Shadowrun can be a very lethal game. Note that the example of Edge putting a dice pool over 20 didn't involve high-Force spirits or a great dragon, but gangers.

At 16 dice, Edge should be used for rerolls unless the char in question has Edge 8:

"Average Add Edge dice": Edge + 1/6 Edge from Rerolls + 1/6 DP from Rerolls = 7/6 Edge + 1/6 DP
"Average Edge Reroll dice": 2/3 DP

Reroll is better as long as 7/6 Edge < 1/2 DP. It is also better because you can wait and see how many hits you get without Edge.

[Blade]

Ruger is for the pro-negotiator. Pred IV is for the back-up face. Ingram Smartgun X is the negotation tool for the common man. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

One of my face has negociated with a grenade:

*Pulls the pin, put the grenade on the table*
"Ok, mister, we've figured you out, and there's something not quite right with all that deal."
"If you've figured me out then you know this isn't much of a threat to me."
(Ok so you TRULY are a Vampire)
"You're right. That's why it's not a regular grenade. It's made of 100% natural components. Probably found in the nearby forests..."
"If it explodes so close to you, you're dead too."
"We're professionals. I've done my research on you, you've done the same on me. I know you're the Vampire, but you know I'm the one who's already dead."

A grenade, some bluff (it was just a regular frag grenade) and a whole lot of composure.

[phlapjack77]

"because he's holding a thermal detonator!"

[longbowrocks]

What about a Reflex Recorder for longarms. That should give you another +1 to your DP. And then taking the Krav-Maga Martial art for take aim as a free action. So in one IP you Take Aim x2 (1 free, 1 simple) then shoot and have a DP of 45.

Then you also take the Lucky quality giving you +1 edge putting you at a DP of 46 re-rolling all 6s.

I left out the reflex recorder for simplicity. It's a skill boost rather than a dice pool boost, same as the adepts improved ability. Thus, I just bought 3 points of that.

[Mäx]

You can get one more point of agility if you make the character a pixie instead of an elf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Christian Lafay]

You can get one more point of agility if you make the character a pixie instead of an elf (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

Yeah.... But.... It would be a pixie.... So now we either have a very small rifle, an odd smartlink set up, or a pixie wrapped around the grip attempting to grab the trigger and perform a move that looks highly suggestive.

[Draco18s]

If you're going to do a pixie, you drop the sharpshooter bit and pick up Intoxicate (and it's related spell, Fireball).

[KarmaInferno]

Or, y'know, Gunnery.

<ducks and runs>





-k

[Rubic]

If you're going to do a pixie, ....

just remember NOT to be Navi.

[Draco18s]

just remember NOT to be Navi.

You don't have to tell me.

[X-Kalibur]

Hey! Listen!

[CanRay]

Hey! Listen!

Where's my hilariously oversized fly swatter?

[DamienKnight]

Surge is technically on it's own BP limit. You spend the BP on the surge (5, 10, or 15), take that many points in negative qualities and then buy twice that many in positive qualities. Any overage counts towards your regular limit either way, so a 15 BP SuRGE with 20 extra points of SuRGEd Positive Qualities would cover all your positives regardless, and 20 pts of SuRGED flaws on a 5 BP SuRGE would cover 15 BP of your negative qualities limit. (you can check it in Runner's Companion, pg 73, bottom left corner)

[Metagenetic Improvement (20 BP) + Aptitude (10 BP) - 15 BP of negative metagenetic qualities] = only 15 BP SuRGE (positive quality). 20 pts left to play with for positives, and all of your negatives free for choosing.

Also, Aptitude can, technically and potentially, be purchased after character creation for twice the BP cost in Karma, with GM approval. Obviously subject to change from table to table, so YMMV.

Adept = 5BP
Surge II = 10BP
Metagenetic Improvement Agility = 0 BP (20 points of limit)
Exceptional Attribute = 20 BP
Aptitude 10 BP

You are now spending 45 BP on positive qualities. Like I said, exceeds raw.

[Rubic]

Adept = 5BP
Surge II = 10BP
Metagenetic Improvement Agility = 0 BP (20 points of limit)
Exceptional Attribute = 20 BP
Aptitude 10 BP

You are now spending 45 BP on positive qualities. Like I said, exceeds raw.

Adept = 5BP
Surge III = 15BP
Metagenetic Improvement Agility = 0 BP (20 points of SuRGE)
Exceptional Attribute = 10 BP (overage from SuRGE)

Aptitude picked up after chargen with GM permission leaves this with 5 BP to spare. Granted, the entire build doesn't fit from Chargen, but can be earned later. It's also harder to justify Exceptional Attribute or Metagenetic Improvement, esp. at that cost, after chargen.

[Ryu]

Now add a spotter. Give me a maxxed sensor test pool for Information-guided indirect fire.

[Mäx]

Adept = 5BP
Surge III = 15BP
Metagenetic Improvement Agility = 0 BP (20 points of SuRGE)
Exceptional Attribute = 10 BP (overage from SuRGE)

You can't get Exceptional Attribute as a SuRGE quality.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You can't get Exceptional Attribute as a SuRGE quality.

You don''t need to though...

Surge II with Metagenic Improvement - Agility (10 BP, The Improvement is Free for BP Purposes)
Adept (5)
Exceptional Attribute (20)

Done, and all for 35 BP of Positive Qualities... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Mäx]

You don''t need to though...

Surge II with Metagenic Improvement - Agility (10 BP, The Improvement is Free for BP Purposes)
Adept (5)
Exceptional Attribute (20)

Done, and all for 35 BP of Positive Qualities... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yes, i know that.
Has nothink to do with the point of my post (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Yes, i know that.
Has nothink to do with the point of my post (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

So, what is your point? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Mäx]

So, what is your point? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

You can't get Exceptional Attribute as a SuRGE quality.

This should be pretty clear man (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This should be pretty clear man (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

And yet, the original post that included the descriptions of the Qualities did not claim to do so... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Though it did get a bit muddied there for a bit...
No Worries... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Rubic]

You can't get Exceptional Attribute as a SuRGE quality.

My mistake. Still, possible to get everything minus Aptitude, and Aptitude is more easy to justify as a post-chargen quality.