Initiative and damage Options

[Seth]

I am in the middle of a game and a question came up about initiative and damage. I didn't know the answer, so looked it up in the book, and was not sure of the answer.

If I have initiative+reactions of 10 with a wound penalty of -2, when I roll initiative do I:

• Roll 8 die and add to 8
• Roll 8 die and add to 10
• Roll 10 die and add to 10 then subtract 2

Thanks

[LostProxy]

Pretty sure it's the same as any test where the subtraction comes from the dice pool only. That's how it works with every thing else.

[Aerospider]

SR4a p.144 Initiative and Damage explicitly states wound modifiers are applied to the Initiative Score, which is the result of rolling Initiative dice and adding Initiative rating, so it's still 10d6 + 10 first.

It's the only way it would work, since wounds suffered during the round affect Initiative immediately but you can't unroll the dice.

[Dakka Dakka]

SR4a p.144 Initiative and Damage explicitly states wound modifiers are applied to the Initiative Score, which is the result of rolling Initiative dice and adding Initiative rating, so it's still 10d6 + 10 first.

This only applies to the round you recieve the damage. In the next round on the Initiave roll you get a negative dice pool modifier of two. So you roll 8D6 and add 10.

[Aerospider]

INITIATIVE AND DAMAGE

When making the Initiative Test wound modifiers from damage affect the Initiative Score. In addition, if a character takes damage that inflicts wound modifiers during a Combat Turn, apply these (additional) modifiers to his Initiative Score immediately.

Like I said, it is explicit (though emphasis mine).

[Dakka Dakka]

Wow you are indeed doubly screwed with damage.
So in all subsequent turns you roll initiative like this 8+8D6?!

[Thanee]

This only applies to the round you recieve the damage. In the next round on the Initiave roll you get a negative dice pool modifier of two.

Isn't that the same thing as what Aerospider says?

i.e.

Start of combat (no wounds) you roll 10d6 and add the hits to 10. Say, 13 total.
During first round you suffer damage to gain a -2 wound penalty, your Initiative immediately drops to 11.

Next round (-2 wound penalty) you roll 10d6 and add the hits to 10, then subtract 2. Say, 11 total.

No "double screwing" there, really. The wound modifiers only apply once at any given time.

Bye
Thanee

[Dakka Dakka]

The general rule is that wound modifiers apply to all tests except resistance tests, so they also apply to the initiative test, whose hits are added to the Initiative Attribute forming the Initiative Score. The section about initiative and damage tells us that the wound modifier applies to the initiative score. So the general rule reduces the dice (which is not overridden by the special rule) and the special rule reduces the score. I call that a double penalty.

[Aerospider]

The general rule is that wound modifiers apply to all tests except resistance tests, so they also apply to the initiative test, whose hits are added to the Initiative Attribute forming the Initiative Score. The section about initiative and damage tells us that the wound modifier applies to the initiative score. So the general rule reduces the dice (which is not overridden by the special rule) and the special rule reduces the score. I call that a double penalty.

I think it is indeed overridden by the special rule. It takes only a modicum of interpretation to read the first line of the passage as exclusive rather than inclusive.

WOUND MODIFIERS

...
Wound modifiers are dice pool modifiers that apply to nearly all tests the injured character may attempt, except for resistance tests.
...

Emphasis mine.

From this line it can be deduced that there are exceptions to wound modifiers other than resistance tests. To be crystal clear there could have been a specific mention in the initiative section that wound penalties do not apply, but the absence of any reference to the standard rule means technically it can be taken either way.

I don't think it takes much logical reasoning to conclude that applying the wound modifiers in both ways is not what was intended, nor the optimal way to run it.

[Dakka Dakka]

From this line it can be deduced that there are exceptions to wound modifiers other than resistance tests. To be crystal clear there could have been a specific mention in the initiative section that wound penalties do not apply, but the absence of any reference to the standard rule means technically it can be taken either way.

I don't think it takes much logical reasoning to conclude that applying the wound modifiers in both ways is not what was intended, nor the optimal way to run it.

I agree that this is the way it should be, but I don't see it written like that.

[Thanee]

Hmm...

Well, I think I will just continue to play it like I am used to.

In the example that would be, roll 8d6 and add the hits to 10, no further deduction from wounds.
Also, the final Initiative result is immediately reduced by any new wound modifier during the combat round.

"When making the Initiative Test wound modifiers from damage affect the Initiative Score."

This part is valid, because the wound modifier does affect the Initiative Score that way (just not directly (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

Bye
Thanee

[Yerameyahu]

Ha, I don't think 'just not directly' is valid rules-fu.

[Seth]

Wow I was hoping for a simple answer, but actually I have the result that I could pretty much go with any of the three options I named, and some people would agree and some disagree.

I suspect that I am going to go with the roll 10d6 add to (10 minus the would modifiers). That agrees with the example they gave, even though the example was for wound modifiers during the combat.