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cryptoknight
post Aug 4 2011, 10:31 AM
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I just picked it up. I'm sure I'll be busy adding data to it since it's missing most of the expansion books as of now, but so far it looks really nice.
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Korwin
post Aug 4 2011, 11:48 AM
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Its finished? *goeslooking*
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suoq
post Aug 4 2011, 12:31 PM
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QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Aug 4 2011, 05:31 AM) *
I just picked it up. I'm sure I'll be busy adding data to it since it's missing most of the expansion books as of now, but so far it looks really nice.

I'll give up Chummer when your pry my keyboard from my cold dead hands.
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Bobby
post Aug 4 2011, 01:34 PM
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I do love Chummer myself, but I'm going to take a good look at the Demo version and see what I think overall.
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Method
post Aug 4 2011, 02:07 PM
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I have the beta. I was unaware that it has been officially released? Gencon I assume.

And for what it's worth the folks at Lonewolf are busy adding the expansion material as we speak (or type as it were).
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Starglyte
post Aug 4 2011, 05:24 PM
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I picked up and I am impressed with it.
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cryptoknight
post Aug 4 2011, 06:59 PM
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QUOTE (Method @ Aug 4 2011, 08:07 AM) *
I have the beta. I was unaware that it has been officially released? Gencon I assume.

And for what it's worth the folks at Lonewolf are busy adding the expansion material as we speak (or type as it were).



Must be nice to have the Beta. Yes their official release date was today. So when I got up this morning for work I picked it up.

Wish I could have gone to Gencon, but I seriously wanted this for over a year. So far adding stuff that was missing is simple enough.

I could probably put in most of the missing qualities fast enough given the pdfs of the books.
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cryptoknight
post Aug 4 2011, 07:00 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 4 2011, 06:31 AM) *
I'll give up Chummer when your pry my keyboard from my cold dead hands.



I played with Chummer for about 10 minutes and just didn't like it at all.

If I wanted to use a free one, I'd keep using DK's spreadsheet.
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cryptoknight
post Aug 4 2011, 07:01 PM
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Here's an example... it only has the core SR4a races, not the metavariants like Dryads...

Creating a Dryad with Symbiosis and Glamor took me less than 5 minutes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Amazeroth
post Aug 4 2011, 07:15 PM
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What are you guys talking about exactly? Would it be possible to get some links?
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Fyndhal
post Aug 4 2011, 07:16 PM
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QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Aug 4 2011, 02:59 PM) *
Must be nice to have the Beta. Yes their official release date was today. So when I got up this morning for work I picked it up.

Wish I could have gone to Gencon, but I seriously wanted this for over a year. So far adding stuff that was missing is simple enough.

I could probably put in most of the missing qualities fast enough given the pdfs of the books.


When is the last time you tried it? Nebular has done a fantastic job improving it over the last few months. At this point it has nearly everything I could want.
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Crazy Ivan
post Aug 4 2011, 07:22 PM
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QUOTE (Fyndhal @ Aug 4 2011, 03:16 PM) *
When is the last time you tried it? Nebular has done a fantastic job improving it over the last few months. At this point it has nearly everything I could want.


Indeed. Nebular has designed an amazing program. You would need some serious features to convince me that HeroLabs put out a superior product in terms of anything more than the style and design of the borders, which is neglible to me.
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cryptoknight
post Aug 4 2011, 07:55 PM
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QUOTE (Fyndhal @ Aug 4 2011, 02:16 PM) *
When is the last time you tried it? Nebular has done a fantastic job improving it over the last few months. At this point it has nearly everything I could want.


About 3 weeks ago. It just didn't impress me at all.
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Starglyte
post Aug 4 2011, 08:14 PM
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QUOTE (Amazeroth @ Aug 4 2011, 01:15 PM) *
What are you guys talking about exactly? Would it be possible to get some links?


http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=hero_lab
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cryptoknight
post Aug 4 2011, 08:33 PM
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QUOTE (Amazeroth @ Aug 4 2011, 02:15 PM) *
What are you guys talking about exactly? Would it be possible to get some links?


Wolflair's Licensed HeroLab Ruleset for Shadowrun which was released today.

http://www.wolflair.com
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Abdul Alhazred
post Aug 5 2011, 09:21 AM
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Question is ... How much for the supplements ? I don't want to pay 15 bucks per book like Pathfinders system. Dosnt seem worth it.
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Warlordtheft
post Aug 5 2011, 02:09 PM
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That to me, this is the kicker. I'm not going to pay for each source book when other free options with all the source book material is out there.
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KarmaInferno
post Aug 5 2011, 02:15 PM
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Yeah, well, Lone Wolf is trying to make money.

The other character generators out there? Not so much.

It probably does not help that character generators fall into such a legal grey zone.



-k
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cryptoknight
post Aug 5 2011, 03:00 PM
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QUOTE (Warlordtheft @ Aug 5 2011, 08:09 AM) *
That to me, this is the kicker. I'm not going to pay for each source book when other free options with all the source book material is out there.


Until the free application developers get tired of maintaining the code. And go the same path as NSRCG.

That's the kicker for me... if I buy the data packages from Wolflair and they stay in business (which is more likely if I do) then I'll have free updates and free support, and the software will continue to be maintained.

If I use a free tool like Chummer, and the developer gets burned out, where am I then if a bug crops up, or I upgrade to a 128 bit system and the software needs to be updated?
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cryptoknight
post Aug 5 2011, 03:01 PM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 5 2011, 08:15 AM) *
Yeah, well, Lone Wolf is trying to make money.

The other character generators out there? Not so much.

It probably does not help that character generators fall into such a legal grey zone.


Except of course for the ones that have a license to exist.
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suoq
post Aug 5 2011, 03:28 PM
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QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Aug 5 2011, 09:00 AM) *
If I use a free tool like Chummer, and the developer gets burned out, where am I then if a bug crops up, or I upgrade to a 128 bit system and the software needs to be updated?

My experience is that the cost of the tools has little impact on the chance of that happening. Paid tools that no longer bring in money are just as quickly abandoned as free tools where the developer gets burned out. One advantage that free tools have is that when a developer wishes to stop supporting a product, they're often able to hand off everything to a new developer. (As an example, after Ancient History decided to no longer maintain the incredible products produced over the years, a number of people offered to maintain them. PACKS is still available.) It's also possible for an independent developer of freeware to hand off responsibility for a project to other individuals or groups of individuals for short periods of time if maintenance or conversion is desired.

Much of the data in Chummer is stored in .xml format, making it easy to modify and add on to. The character sheets are in .xsl format making it possible to add new styles of character sheets. Much of the technical information is stored on the Chummer Wiki ( http://www.dndjunkie.com/chummer/wiki/MainPage.ashx ) including information about adding custom data files ( http://www.dndjunkie.com/chummer/wiki/Cust...ta%20Files.ashx ). Should the tool be abandoned today and a new book come out, a number of us could simply create the custom data files for the book and publicly make them available.

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KarmaInferno
post Aug 5 2011, 03:39 PM
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QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Aug 5 2011, 10:01 AM) *
Except of course for the ones that have a license to exist.

Well, I suppose.

Whether or not a license is NEEDED or not is the grey area. Game mechanics are generally not protected by Copyright Law. You can get a Patent on them, but usually mechanics, the kind you can reduce to formulas on a spreadsheet, fail the "creative" requirement.

That said, if nothing else you do need a license for any trademarked words or logos belonging to the game maker.




-k
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Prime Mover
post Aug 5 2011, 03:40 PM
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Somehow I missed Chummer until seeing this thread. Good looking project.
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Saint Hallow
post Aug 5 2011, 03:44 PM
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I have no problems paying for a product & supporting a game company if the product is worth it. There have been plenty of freeware that has been better than the licensed stuff, bit sometimes players and fans need to note a bullet if just to keep a franchise alive.

If the builder is good, lemme know. I will put in my order today.
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cryptoknight
post Aug 5 2011, 04:48 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 5 2011, 10:28 AM) *
My experience is that the cost of the tools has little impact on the chance of that happening. Paid tools that no longer bring in money are just as quickly abandoned as free tools where the developer gets burned out. One advantage that free tools have is that when a developer wishes to stop supporting a product, they're often able to hand off everything to a new developer. (As an example, after Ancient History decided to no longer maintain the incredible products produced over the years, a number of people offered to maintain them. PACKS is still available.) It's also possible for an independent developer of freeware to hand off responsibility for a project to other individuals or groups of individuals for short periods of time if maintenance or conversion is desired.

Much of the data in Chummer is stored in .xml format, making it easy to modify and add on to. The character sheets are in .xsl format making it possible to add new styles of character sheets. Much of the technical information is stored on the Chummer Wiki ( http://www.dndjunkie.com/chummer/wiki/MainPage.ashx ) including information about adding custom data files ( http://www.dndjunkie.com/chummer/wiki/Cust...ta%20Files.ashx ). Should the tool be abandoned today and a new book come out, a number of us could simply create the custom data files for the book and publicly make them available.


Well Herolab is something like 15 years old.

I loved free tools... NSRCG was a die by tool for SR3, when Sr4 came out and everything changed, what happened to it?

If Neb decided today to quit supporting or working on Chummer and walked, what would the impact of SR5 be to it?

If SR5 came out tomorrow, I'm pretty sure, I'd be able to buy a new game system or data file for Hero Lab, within a period of time, and just go on my merry way with the same character management tool I might use for Pathfinder, D&D 4e, Cthulhu, etc.

And for that matter, managing the data files is more robust for HL. I can actually write code to sit behind various qualities and make the whole thing work. And I get that with my license.
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suoq
post Aug 5 2011, 05:10 PM
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QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Aug 5 2011, 11:48 AM) *
If Neb decided today to quit supporting or working on Chummer and walked, what would the impact of SR5 be to it?
If SR5 came out tomorrow, I'm pretty sure, I'd be able to buy a new game system or data file for Hero Lab, within a period of time

So, your assumption is that A, for no provided reason, stops support and B, for no provided reason, adds support.
Given the ability to define your own assumptions as if they're facts, you tend to get the answer you want. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)
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Fyndhal
post Aug 5 2011, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Aug 5 2011, 12:48 PM) *
If SR5 came out tomorrow, I'm pretty sure, I'd be able to buy a new game system or data file for Hero Lab, within a period of time, and just go on my merry way with the same character management tool I might use for Pathfinder, D&D 4e, Cthulhu, etc.


If SR5 came out tomorrow, I'd get it. Until such time, I'll pass.
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cryptoknight
post Aug 5 2011, 06:48 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 5 2011, 12:10 PM) *
So, your assumption is that A, for no provided reason, stops support and B, for no provided reason, adds support.
Given the ability to define your own assumptions as if they're facts, you tend to get the answer you want. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/proof.gif)



Do you remember NSRCG?

I do... I used it for years, made a donation to the author for it (I believe it was the buy the author a beer program). Then one day he went away and when SR4 came out we were all screwed. Chummer may or may not be around for a while, but ultimately Neb is more like the author of NSRCG than like Wolflair. If Neb gets tired (as a lot of freeware authors do), or Catalyst decides to disallow character generators in order to drive sales to the one they get royalties from, I can tell you that I'll still be OK. And while they don't have a patent on the game system mechanics, they do have copyrights to the text contents of the books, so they could.

Wolflair on the other hand, has a license to manage a character builder for Shadowrun, when (not if) Shadowrun 5 comes out, they'll likely charge me money to get the SR5 rule set, but I'll be able to continue to use the same tool for the next generation and won't be lost as many were when SR4 came out and NSRCG was not updated to follow it. Odds are I'll be able to convert my characters (to some degree) to the new package as well.
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Fyndhal
post Aug 5 2011, 07:26 PM
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QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Aug 5 2011, 01:48 PM) *
Do you remember NSRCG?

I do... I used it for years, made a donation to the author for it (I believe it was the buy the author a beer program). Then one day he went away and when SR4 came out we were all screwed. Chummer may or may not be around for a while, but ultimately Neb is more like the author of NSRCG than like Wolflair. If Neb gets tired (as a lot of freeware authors do), or Catalyst decides to disallow character generators in order to drive sales to the one they get royalties from, I can tell you that I'll still be OK. And while they don't have a patent on the game system mechanics, they do have copyrights to the text contents of the books, so they could.

Wolflair on the other hand, has a license to manage a character builder for Shadowrun, when (not if) Shadowrun 5 comes out, they'll likely charge me money to get the SR5 rule set, but I'll be able to continue to use the same tool for the next generation and won't be lost as many were when SR4 came out and NSRCG was not updated to follow it. Odds are I'll be able to convert my characters (to some degree) to the new package as well.


Not meant as a personal attack, but are you schilling? Do you have a personal stack in Herolabs?

It's just as likely, given Shadowrun's history, that Catalyst somehow loses the license or somehow did not actually HAVE the rights to sub-license a character generator and Hero-Labs is forced to cease support. /shrug I'm not concerned with what may happen a year down the line. As I said, when SR5 comes out, if there isn't a free alternative, I'll pick up Herolabs generator.

Actually, I might pick it up for the Savage Worlds creator, if it has decent support...I'm tired of messing with my 5 year old spreadsheet. So, maybe they'll get my business afterall.
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whatevs
post Aug 5 2011, 11:12 PM
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Chummer for me. He built it exactly like i'd build it (if i wasn't so lazy).
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Nebular
post Aug 6 2011, 12:50 AM
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Just to put the "OMG! What happens if he stops developing it" stuff - like I've said in the past: if for any reason I stop developing this, I will make the source code available to anyone who wants it so that the community can continue to develop it and put it to use. I'm sure there's at least one other C# developer in the crowd who would be willing to poke around in it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) When I released Chummer, I really had no idea that Lone Wolf was working on one. I had only seen the Excel sheets and half-baked, incomplete applications. Whether or not someone uses it, it doesn't bother me; not everyone's going to like it. At least the community has more options now, and if they don't like any of 'em, pencils and paper are still plentiful!

I'm not trying to persuade people into using my stuff by posting here. I really want to keep this on the actual subject and offer my opinion (and address the "what if" scenario for Chummer since that seems to keep popping up as an aside). Personally, I've never really cared of Lone Wolf's software (Army Builder, Hero Lab with d20, Hero Lab with Pathfinder), but I tried their Shadowrun demo to see what they've been up to lately. I've found their colour scheme gets very hard on the eyes after a short while, and their UI in general to be ugly with things crammed together. Hero Labs as a platform is an extremely cool idea. Getting something to work with multiple gaming systems is really neat and a huge amount of work. Having just one application to cover all of the RPGs you play could be a huge plus. That said, the big problem I see with it is that the game system files are these very distinct, very specialised pieces that are being crammed into a platform that has to be so general as to accommodate all of the different systems, so things are laid out in this sometimes awkward way, rather than having an application designed specifically for that system.

QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Aug 5 2011, 11:48 AM) *
And for that matter, managing the data files is more robust for HL. I can actually write code to sit behind various qualities and make the whole thing work.

Not everyone wants to take the time (or for that matter, knows how to) write code to get something to work properly. It's powerful, but a smaller sub-set of your user base is going to actually be able to take advantage of this. The same could be done by either using a non-proprietary data format like XML and providing tags that translate into more complex behaviour within the application (while not everyone knows/wants to modify XML, it is usually a larger sub-set of your user base and an easy-to-understand standard), or a more in-depth but easy-to-use editor like RPGXplorer was which let you modify things in a more granular manner and build things up in blocks.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Aug 6 2011, 02:47 AM
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I don't think I'd have an issue buying the content packs if the game was new. It is one thing to say I made X, Y came out so it is new work I have to do and I want to be compensated. It is another thing to say A-Z is out I gave you only A which doesn't really give you a functional product but hey after I make B-Z you can pay for those as well and your character generator will be worth a damn.
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Bigity
post Aug 7 2011, 02:24 PM
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QUOTE (cryptoknight @ Aug 5 2011, 11:48 AM) *
Well Herolab is something like 15 years old.

I loved free tools... NSRCG was a die by tool for SR3, when Sr4 came out and everything changed, what happened to it?

If Neb decided today to quit supporting or working on Chummer and walked, what would the impact of SR5 be to it?

If SR5 came out tomorrow, I'm pretty sure, I'd be able to buy a new game system or data file for Hero Lab, within a period of time, and just go on my merry way with the same character management tool I might use for Pathfinder, D&D 4e, Cthulhu, etc.

And for that matter, managing the data files is more robust for HL. I can actually write code to sit behind various qualities and make the whole thing work. And I get that with my license.


And when SR5 comes out? Your HeroLabs SR4 version is dropped and all that money spent is gone. Just like they've done for years. And look how long it took for the SR4 module to finish development, and that's only the core book.
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KarmaInferno
post Aug 7 2011, 04:11 PM
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QUOTE (Bigity @ Aug 7 2011, 09:24 AM) *
And look how long it took for the SR4 module to finish development, and that's only the core book.

Er, they took, what, like a year or so?

That's pretty average for software development.



-k
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Bigity
post Aug 7 2011, 09:46 PM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 7 2011, 10:11 AM) *
Er, they took, what, like a year or so?

That's pretty average for software development.



-k


For a character generator for a core book? They didn't create a new program, they made a module for a program that already existed. Yea, they had to write all new checks and triggers and all that, but it's not like they had to come up with an installer, update engine, etc etc.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 7 2011, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE (Bigity @ Aug 7 2011, 03:46 PM) *
For a character generator for a core book? They didn't create a new program, they made a module for a program that already existed. Yea, they had to write all new checks and triggers and all that, but it's not like they had to come up with an installer, update engine, etc etc.


Which is why it only took a year or so (give or take)... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Saint Hallow
post Aug 7 2011, 11:18 PM
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I tried the demo version & while interesting, it doesn't have any of the supplement books like Augmentation or Runner's Companion. So I will hold off on buying it until it has all the supplemental stuff available.

I keep reading about "Chummer". Since I'm a newb idiot... can some care to elaborate on this app for chargen?
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Fyndhal
post Aug 7 2011, 11:24 PM
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QUOTE (Saint Hallow @ Aug 7 2011, 06:18 PM) *
I tried the demo version & while interesting, it doesn't have any of the supplement books like Augmentation or Runner's Companion. So I will hold off on buying it until it has all the supplemental stuff available.

I keep reading about "Chummer". Since I'm a newb idiot... can some care to elaborate on this app for chargen?



Check here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?showtopic=34674
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Saint Hallow
post Aug 7 2011, 11:26 PM
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Much obliged for the link.
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KarmaInferno
post Aug 7 2011, 11:31 PM
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QUOTE (Bigity @ Aug 7 2011, 04:46 PM) *
For a character generator for a core book? They didn't create a new program, they made a module for a program that already existed. Yea, they had to write all new checks and triggers and all that, but it's not like they had to come up with an installer, update engine, etc etc.

You realize most commercial software development is on 2, 4, or 6 year cycles, yes?

One year isn't bad, even if it's a module for an existing engine.



-k
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Saint Hallow
post Aug 8 2011, 03:44 AM
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Wow... Chummer is a really nice program. Lemme say thanks & I hope it keeps up.
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Neko Asakami
post Aug 8 2011, 05:04 AM
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Did we ever find out if they're making us buy the books separately? Personally, I use Army Builder (both v2 and v3) for my Warhammer 40k, so I will say that I do like their products and they do build good software. If it's $30 and they keep it working and updated (in something resembling a timely manner) it'll personally be worth it, even though I love Chummer.
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KeyMasterOfGozer
post Aug 8 2011, 05:15 AM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Aug 7 2011, 07:31 PM) *
You realize most commercial software development is on 2, 4, or 6 year cycles, yes?

One year isn't bad, even if it's a module for an existing engine.

I have been a software developer for 20 years. I've only worked on 1 project that lasted 2 years, and it was an never finished cluster fuck. I'd have to say in my experience, most projects's release cycles of this size are more like 6 months, and many are much less. For instance, Chummer, which does everything that this HeroLabs one does for the Core book, plus it already handles most if not all of the other books, and it started from scratch in April (4 months ago) whereas HeroLab only added a module, not developing the underlying system.

HeroLabs might be cool, but my hat is off to the Chummer guy, who has turned out an arguably superior product in 1/3 of the time at non-butt-puckering price point.

Actually, my biggest turn off with HeroLabs isn't the price, which I think is too high, but it's the draconian DRM that it has. You can only install it on one machine, unless you fill out their special form to get a special second machine license. If your computer that it is installed on breaks down, you have to contact them to get another license to install it on your repaired machine. Crazy. I would never be able to convince the guys in my group to pay for or use this.

I'm glad we all have choices though.
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Fyndhal
post Aug 8 2011, 01:49 PM
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QUOTE (KeyMasterOfGozer @ Aug 8 2011, 01:15 AM) *
I'm glad we all have choices though.


Hear hear!
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LurkerOutThere
post Aug 8 2011, 02:18 PM
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QUOTE (Neko Asakami @ Aug 7 2011, 11:04 PM) *
Did we ever find out if they're making us buy the books separately? Personally, I use Army Builder (both v2 and v3) for my Warhammer 40k, so I will say that I do like their products and they do build good software. If it's $30 and they keep it working and updated (in something resembling a timely manner) it'll personally be worth it, even though I love Chummer.


Ya know people, you realize you can like Chummer right, you don't need to justify your liking of it by bashing on something else.

Further if 35$ (the cost of a new herolab purchase which comes with one game system) is a puckering price point for you then what are you doing buying RPG books?

I was another of those who wasn't that sold on chummer, I'm still using DK's spreadsheet, herolab gives me another option. Hopefully their product's quality will exceed Chummers fairly quickly, that's what I expect to do in the case of a fan project vs a professional software house, if not feel free to use it.

Also to the best of my knowledge form talking to folks at the Catalyst booth (I had already bought from the herolab booth) including Jason the Herolab pack for shadowrun will include all shadowrun books out to date eventually, pathfinder is kind of it's own special monster as far as that goes. In the future if there is a major new gear book that might be seperate. But for now it is what it is.

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suoq
post Aug 8 2011, 03:19 PM
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I don't believe pointing out that it took from May 13, 2010 to Aug 04. 2011 to do the first book is "bashing". It's reasonable, at that rate of development , to question if SR5 will be published before the core books are even added to Hero Labs.

While I agree with you on your expectations of a professional software house, as a direct comparison, the Chummer project started from scratch well after the Hero Labs announcement of adding a data package to an existing platform and has outpaced it at an incredible rate (currently supporting 18 books and the German content from Arsenal and Augmentation). There is no reason to expect Hero Labs to ever catch up or outperform given their track record over the past 15 months. While I am less familiar with the spreadsheet project going on in the Community Projects sections, they also seem to be outpacing Hero Labs and it's nature makes it a much more open project than either Chummer or Hero Labs. Of the three, the slowest and least responsive is the professional software house project.

I like the choices, especially since my previous of choice appeared to be abandoned with bugs but after a year of waiting, Hero Labs need to make significant improvements to their product and delivery time in order to regain my confidence.
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LurkerOutThere
post Aug 8 2011, 03:53 PM
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Actually considering that SR5 still isn't announced I do find it unreasonable, such is life however. I'm not going to defend hero labs, I just find all the bitching, especially bitching based on inaccurate information odd. (Speculation on expansion pack costs for example)

Kudos to Chummer for having a shorter turnaround then Herolabs, but they were starting from the ground up to support only Shadowrun. Now i don't know much about herolabs, I'm about to go fish my copy out of my luggage and do an install, but I do know that other people have highly recommended their other product packs. They needed to make the Shadowrun pack work with their existing framework. Little different beast, plus while I'm sure they would have liked to have everything ready at turn key with all the books. I'm sure that Gencon coming up encouraged them to get out a smooth but updatable project later drove them ahead.

Basically, what I ask is that you stop dragging the thread off topic. You want to start a thread expounding the virtues of Chummer, there already is one, and good on them. This thread was someone asking about herolab. I'm fine with line by line comparisons, and if I were to have to pay for expansion books ala pathfinder I'm going to be six kinds of pissed, but until then I'm going to give the product it's run and see how things go.
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Sengir
post Aug 8 2011, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE (LurkerOutThere @ Aug 8 2011, 04:53 PM) *
This thread was someone asking about herolab and you came in to do nothing but bash by comparison, bad form and all that.

This thread was by someone saying "I think herolabs is great", why shouldn't people mention other options in a civilized (thank god MS is not involved^^) manner?

What I'm wondering, will CGL also use this tool for future books? The extra sanity checks would certainly help (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Method
post Aug 8 2011, 07:03 PM
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LoneWolf is already at work adding content from the other core and supplement books. I have not heard whether they will charge for these or not. I could ask on their play test forums... Tho I haven't been very active there.

Also, someone mentioned CGL licensing rights above. The Herolab project was actually announced a few years back, but was delayed due to licensing issues. I'm fairly certain that the commercial release of SR for Herolab indicates that the appropriate people are getting payed.
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KeyMasterOfGozer
post Aug 8 2011, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE (Neko Asakami @ Aug 8 2011, 01:04 AM) *
Did we ever find out if they're making us buy the books separately? Personally, I use Army Builder (both v2 and v3) for my Warhammer 40k, so I will say that I do like their products and they do build good software. If it's $30 and they keep it working and updated (in something resembling a timely manner) it'll personally be worth it, even though I love Chummer.

Here is what their pricing page says on the issue of making us buy supplimental books separately...
QUOTE
Access to supplemental add-ons for that game system and/or additional game systems can be purchased after first activating your license. The game systems and add-ons currently available are listed below.


From:
http://www.wolflair.com/index.php?context=...mp;page=pricing

There is no price listed yet for Supplementals for SR4, but that could be because none exist yet.
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Abdul Alhazred
post Aug 9 2011, 02:06 AM
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I grabbed Hero Lab from a Loot ! special for 15$ dollars. I was going to use it for Pathfinder until I noticed that it would cost a mint to grab the books I wanted - so I grabbed the SR core set.

So far I'm digging it. Very slick UI and haven't run into any errors yet. The only limitation is not having all the books yet. I'm guessing the pricing will be in the 10 - 15 range.
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Fyndhal
post Aug 9 2011, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE (Abdul Alhazred @ Aug 8 2011, 09:06 PM) *
I grabbed Hero Lab from a Loot ! special for 15$ dollars. I was going to use it for Pathfinder until I noticed that it would cost a mint to grab the books I wanted - so I grabbed the SR core set.

So far I'm digging it. Very slick UI and haven't run into any errors yet. The only limitation is not having all the books yet. I'm guessing the pricing will be in the 10 - 15 range.


For Pathfinder, I recommend PCGen. http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/01_overview.php I've been using it for D&D style gaming for at least 10 years. It's still maintained and updated regularly and it's Free!
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nylanfs
post Aug 17 2011, 03:44 AM
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Thanks for that bump Fyndhal! We appreciate it.

And I was going to mention that Lone Wolf first talked about getting a SR character builder about 3 years ago IIRC, but somebody already mentioned that it had been in development for a while so that is covered. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I'm checking out the demo right now, it looks really solid so I'm probably going to pick it up. At least until I get my data hacks done so I can make a SR gamemode and datasets for PCGen. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) It's only been 6 years since I've been working on it, off and on:)
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nylanfs
post Aug 19 2011, 01:11 AM
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Just bought it. There's a few quirks to it, but on the whole it's pretty solid.
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AJCarrington
post Feb 1 2012, 03:25 PM
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New content due later this month:

Shadowrun Updates

AJC
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Paul
post Feb 1 2012, 04:00 PM
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It looks nice, but I'm a cheap SOB. I'll stick to free stuff. More money for hookers and blo...I mean books. Yeah, books.
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AJCarrington
post Feb 1 2012, 06:12 PM
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(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I guess we all need to set our priorities.

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TheeGravedigger
post Feb 1 2012, 11:43 PM
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$34.99 ? for the 5 books? Yea, I think that's a reasonable price, given the quality of the Pathfinder data sets.
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NorthernWolf
post Feb 2 2012, 12:05 AM
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I have it. Its slick. I would say worth it.
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Bigity
post Feb 2 2012, 02:13 PM
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Well, can you blame em? The way to do things now is base thing and DLC.

I'll pass, maybe I should send some money to the guy making Chummer instead.
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nylanfs
post Feb 19 2012, 03:27 PM
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Arsenal, Augmentation and Street Magic just went up for sale for HeroLab.
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Mr. Mage
post Feb 20 2012, 05:01 AM
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QUOTE (Paul @ Feb 1 2012, 12:00 PM) *
It looks nice, but I'm a cheap SOB. I'll stick to free stuff. More money for hookers and blo...I mean books. Yeah, books.

You and me both. I'm just fine with the various free ones on this site. Work just fine for me!
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Trigger
post Feb 21 2012, 09:24 AM
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QUOTE (nylanfs @ Feb 19 2012, 11:27 AM) *
Arsenal, Augmentation and Street Magic just went up for sale for HeroLab.


Any word on whether these are included with the SR package, or do they have to be purchased separately?
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Bigity
post Feb 21 2012, 09:45 PM
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Each is a serpate purchase (with some package deals), and they've been up front about that from the start. Can't knock em for that, at least.
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Brainpiercing7.6...
post Feb 21 2012, 11:39 PM
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Meh, I still like the spreadsheet best. Even though not everything is correct, at least I can make everything work by myself, even house rules. Chummer has a ton, but not those that I use - so... And a commercial program? Hell, actually Catalyst should provide that. For free, WITH their fracking books. Why do I have to pay AGAIN for the same content, just a little more utility? If the generator came with all the full text of the books, then that would be... sort of ok, but to pay more in the range of about half of what the books cost for a thing you don't really NEED is just too much.

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Bigity
post Feb 22 2012, 02:51 PM
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Well, I can see a smaller outfit not wanting to pay programmers etc to keep a product up to date.

FASA sure never supplied a generator though, and the ones from the other big sytem have never been all that great either, and if I recall correctly, you had to pay for or have some kind of insider subscription anyway.

But yes, having to purchase modules for each 'core' rule book, much less anything put out after the generator was released is a sore spot for many I'd imagine.
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KarmaInferno
post Feb 23 2012, 07:30 AM
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QUOTE (Brainpiercing7.62mm @ Feb 21 2012, 06:39 PM) *
Hell, actually Catalyst should provide that. For free, WITH their fracking books.

Right. And what exactly is their incentive to do that?

Sorry, a little bitter. Working retail right now and have run into far too many customers who want free stuff.




-k
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Brainpiercing7.6...
post Feb 23 2012, 09:53 AM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ Feb 23 2012, 08:30 AM) *
Right. And what exactly is their incentive to do that?

Sorry, a little bitter. Working retail right now and have run into far too many customers who want free stuff.

-k

How about to provide a modern roleplaying system? I mean books are so 2011...

IF they license a commercial program - at least in conjunction with disallowing free, user made ones - it should be provided with the books. As is, I don't really care.

(And right back at you: A little bitter. Been a customer all my life and have run into far too many money grabbing companies that provide barest value for money, and still keep raising prices or blatantly abuse their market position. Yes I know the whole not NEEDING to buy stuff. Guess what, very often I don't, except far too many people still do.)
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KarmaInferno
post Feb 23 2012, 04:17 PM
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That would require that Catalyst provide significant compensation to the software developer, as nobody works for free.

I don't know if you realize this, but publishing, especially RPGs, is NOT a very profitable business. Your net profits are very thin.

So, to provide the software with the books, one of two things must happen:

- Either the publisher takes a profit hit, quite possibly to the point where they are LOSING money on each sale. Remember nobody works for free.

or

- Or they have to raise the price of the books.

No business will do something for nothing. Even when you see "free" stuff being added to an offer, it's not really free. It's a calculated risk - the business is betting that the increased sales from the bonus stuff will more than compensate for the added production cost.

In the case of Shadowrun, I would strongly think that including free software with the books would NOT increase sales enough to cover the cost of developing the software. Simple fact is that Shadowrun is a tiny market. The small number of purchasers of this brand would mostly buy with or without the software. Therefore, not enough incentive to include such a freebie.

The third alternative is for the publisher to just allow a third party purchase a license, letting them develop the software as a separate product. In this scenario, regardless of whether the licensee makes money or not, the publisher gets paid.

If you were running this business, which option would be most appealing to you?



-k
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Murrdox
post Feb 23 2012, 07:10 PM
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As a GM, I just have to say that Hero Lab for Shadowrun is EXTREMELY useful. I'm using this more than any other game supplement.

Hero Lab lets you work out of "Portfolios" which store multiple "Heroes" including those Heroes' minions, vehicles, etc.

So what I've done is develop a "Master" Portfolio for my game which contains the Heroes for all my characters. Then, I create secondary Portfolios for every major "Scene" that the Heroes are going to be in.

For example, there might be a planned scene that takes place in a bar with a Mr. Johnson meet. I'll create a Portfolio for the bar which contains the Bartender, the Bouncers at the door, Mr. Johnson, and Mr. Johnson's security detail, along with anyone else important at the location I think the players will run into.

If the players start trouble, I can import the combat participants from the Bar portfolio into the Master portfolio, and use Hero Lab's combat tracker to track injuries and ammunition for the fight. Then I can save that Master Portfolio, and the stats are all saved up for next playing session. This is GREAT for keeping track of how much Edge my players have used, and their ammunition and injuries between playing sessions.

So far the new supplement books are really well implemented, but some of the more advanced things that you could do aren't there. Like you can't have a Spirit possess someone, etc.

It's $30 for Hero Lab and $35 for the bundle of all the supplement books. Not bad in my opinion, but I'm not sure if I'd buy it if I was only a Player and not a GM.
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cryptoknight
post Feb 23 2012, 07:43 PM
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QUOTE (Murrdox @ Feb 23 2012, 01:10 PM) *
It's $30 for Hero Lab and $35 for the bundle of all the supplement books. Not bad in my opinion, but I'm not sure if I'd buy it if I was only a Player and not a GM.


I bought HL for D&D 4e because Character Builder went online only. I still pay for my insider account, but the character count limit with the online model wasn't enough for me, and I needed something that works when I'm not on the internet too.

I bought SR4 for HL when it was released and posted my post about it here that started this thread.

In January I did a little freelance for Lone Wolf and added some of the Arsenal content. I have since purchased the data compilation package.

Do I think it's worth it as a player? Oh god yes. I'm personally at the point where if I maintain characters for an RPG, they must be maintained digitally. I no longer want to look at my handwriting from last week and pencil and pen marks and whatnot on a hand maintained sheet. I prefer commercial software.

I honestly never though of using it as a GM tool like that. If I ran a home game it would probably work better. Mostly I use it for my missions characters. I've gotten several friends to pick it up. If we just played missions at a home game, I think that would rock for the GM (we rotate that around)

I've known you could do that, but I never thought to try. Awesome.

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Murrdox
post Feb 23 2012, 08:02 PM
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Here's another really cool thing. I created a "Generic NPC" Portfolio that I can use for unplanned events. I can create quick characters for bar patrons, drug dealers, businessmen, bouncers, random gang members, street toughs, street shamans, etc.

Whenever my players do something weird and unexpected, I have the stats for the relevant NPC right there without having to flip through a book or PDF files. Also, I don't have to re-create the "Ork Security Doorman" everytime I have a bar scene. I can just import the same Ork (or multiple versions of him if there are more than one) from the Portfolio to the scene that I need. If these Orks at this particular club are different somehow from the standard template (let's say they're working at a Yakuza club and I want them to have Katanas) that takes less than a minute to modify.

So basically I have a "Black Book" of NPCs available for any situation I can think of ahead of time.

Oh, and it makes Spirits SOO much easier to deal with now, especially now that Street Magic is implemented. Now when a player or an NPC summons a Spirit, I don't have to look it up in the main rulebook to try and remember what powers it comes with, and what its stats are compared to its Force. I just create it in Hero Lab, and it takes like 5 mouse clicks. Boom, instant Force 5 Spirit of Man with whatever optional power I want for him.
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cryptoknight
post Feb 23 2012, 09:42 PM
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Can those of us using HL get you to put the files up somewhere? I think a lot of us would love to borrow your work (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Murrdox
post Feb 24 2012, 05:13 PM
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I can probably swing something like that. I spent last night going through some of the ones I've made and fleshing them out a bit. I'm also trying to make sure the "Generic" NPCs don't use anything from Arsenal, since I think they'll be more useful in case people have not chosen to purchase the Supplement books add-on for Hero Lab.

I've customized my Data Set a little bit too so I just have to test and make sure loading them into vanilla Hero Lab won't produce errors.

Most of these NPCs are very on the "light" side. No Knowledge Skills, and only skills that a GM would typically need them to have. Basic equipment is usually left out, other than a Commlink, which I try to make sure to include for everyone, just in case.
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nylanfs
post Feb 25 2012, 06:15 PM
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Talk to CeaDawg on the HL SR forum, he's trying to assembly a character repo also

http://forums.wolflair.com/showthread.php?t=19035
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Nebulus
post May 2 2012, 07:29 AM
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I just bought this and it is fantastic for GMs! I can highly recommend it.
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_Pax._
post May 2 2012, 07:50 AM
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I've had the program, and every Shadowrun datafile on offer, for about two weeks now. And I love it very, very much.
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Shinobi Killfist
post May 3 2012, 02:21 AM
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I broke down and got it. It is fairly sweet. I am not sure I am going to agree with all of their rules interpretations though. Like they say cyber limb armor does not add to your armor it only applies if someone makes a called shot.
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_Pax._
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I don't think I'd let someone get +2/+2 armor, for only 600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , because one arm is armored, either.
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Shinobi Killfist
post May 3 2012, 04:33 AM
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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ May 2 2012, 11:08 PM) *
I don't think I'd let someone get +2/+2 armor, for only 600 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) , because one arm is armored, either.


Hey if you want to house rule things that is cool with me, but it clearly states in SR4 that the armor is cumulative with worn armor. It no where even hints that it is only for called shots. And an official character generator should strive to follow the rules. And on the house rule side I find it a bit suspect given the form fitting, helmets etc. all give extra armor for cheap as well, and really it isn't 600, since you need to buy the limb.
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Inu
post May 3 2012, 04:59 AM
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So: the software doesn't let you house rule and break rules? (For instance, could I alter the skill list?)
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Shinobi Killfist
post May 3 2012, 05:33 AM
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QUOTE (Inu @ May 2 2012, 11:59 PM) *
So: the software doesn't let you house rule and break rules? (For instance, could I alter the skill list?)



You can alter things and add things. Too what degree I am not sure, tech is no my strong suit. The person who is about to GM a game I will be running in on the other hand is in the tech field and is trying to get his house rules in. I'll wait and see how that pans out.
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_Pax._
post May 3 2012, 05:54 AM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ May 2 2012, 11:33 PM) *
Hey if you want to house rule things that is cool with me, but it clearly states in SR4 that the armor is cumulative with worn armor. It no where even hints that it is only for called shots. And an official character generator should strive to follow the rules. And on the house rule side I find it a bit suspect given the form fitting, helmets etc. all give extra armor for cheap as well, and really it isn't 600, since you need to buy the limb.

Nowhere does it say that the armor is body-wide, either. In fact, the Strength o that limb isn't body-wide, so why should anything else be?

And given the lack of definitive statements either way, I - being a veteran of every edition of Shadowrun ever to grace this planet, to date - look to prior editions, where Cyberlimb armor was not an estraordinarily cheap way to layer on more armor.

I would probably be willing to give HALF the limb's armor to your overall armor rating - a little more generous than prioreditions, but SR4 armor ratings are universally higher anyway, so ... *shrug*. Also, at "half", a starting character could have a +1/+1 overall net benefit.
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_Pax._
post May 3 2012, 05:55 AM
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QUOTE (Inu @ May 2 2012, 11:59 PM) *
So: the software doesn't let you house rule and break rules? (For instance, could I alter the skill list?)

There is an editor that you can adjust the datafiles - or even create your own from scratch (useful, since for example: the German-produced stuff probably won't get an official release from LWD).
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Sengir
post May 3 2012, 09:51 AM
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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ May 3 2012, 06:54 AM) *
In fact, the Strength o that limb isn't body-wide, so why should anything else be?

Because there are specific rules for uneven Attributes, but Armor is not an attribute. And because a helmet or ballistic vest gives its full bonus despite not covering the whole body...
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Hida Tsuzua
post May 3 2012, 11:34 AM
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In addition to stuff like helmets and FFBA, there's also Dermal Sheaths. Rating 1 and Rating 2 explicitly only cover a section of the user's body, but most people would say their armor bonuses apply all the time. There's also the question of what happens if a guy has armor 3 all over. Does it apply all the time then? What if he has no armor on his head? What about if he armors just his limbs?
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_Pax._
post May 3 2012, 01:43 PM
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Helmets cover a specifically-vulnerable part of the metahuman body (the part the brain is in).

Dermal Sheaths start out covering the torso (where several other "must have them to continue being alive" organs are kept), and a ratign 1 system costs 10,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

FFBA, like dermal sheathing, stars out covering the torso.

Even things like the Securetech PPP items, "forearm guards", "arm and leg casings", "shin guards": these items are worn on BOTH limbs, not just one.

...

Anyway: IMO either ruling is simply a matter of "how do you interpret this rule - which was not written to be explicitly clear enough?"

And there's an easy solution to that: post on the LWD forum for HL:Shadowrun, and ask that it at least be made an optional rule to apply some or all of a Cyberlimb's armor to a character's overall body. As I am already registered for that forum, I shall do so myself in just a moment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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_Pax._
post May 3 2012, 01:52 PM
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There, Feature requested. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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KarmaInferno
post May 3 2012, 02:30 PM
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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ May 3 2012, 01:54 AM) *
Nowhere does it say that the armor is body-wide, either. In fact, the Strength o that limb isn't body-wide, so why should anything else be?

And given the lack of definitive statements either way, I - being a veteran of every edition of Shadowrun ever to grace this planet, to date - look to prior editions, where Cyberlimb armor was not an estraordinarily cheap way to layer on more armor.

I would probably be willing to give HALF the limb's armor to your overall armor rating - a little more generous than prioreditions, but SR4 armor ratings are universally higher anyway, so ... *shrug*. Also, at "half", a starting character could have a +1/+1 overall net benefit.


Hey, guess what, I'm also "a veteran of every edition of Shadowrun ever to grace this planet, to date". And I see in black and white that the rules definitively state that non-worn armor all stacks, and that armor is not an attribute.

The rules as written have no location-based damage or armoring. A bullet fired at you gets affected by the armor on your helmet or chest or foot or wherever. You don't fire at someone's head, or chest, or foot, you fire at "them". It's abstract. Armor on your arm is treated the same. If you want to aim at a specific part, you use the Called Shot rules, which do indeed allow you to bypass armor.

More importantly, you might argue that this shouldn't be that way, but a third-party licensed product is not the place to do it.

The Hero Lab generator is supposed to follow the rules as written exactly. It's not there to serve as errata or rules correction.

If there is a rules correction that needs to be made, it should be coming from Catalyst, not Lone Wolf.



-k
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Hida Tsuzua
post May 3 2012, 03:05 PM
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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ May 3 2012, 02:43 PM) *
Helmets cover a specifically-vulnerable part of the metahuman body (the part the brain is in).

Dermal Sheaths start out covering the torso (where several other "must have them to continue being alive" organs are kept), and a ratign 1 system costs 10,000 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif)

FFBA, like dermal sheathing, stars out covering the torso.

Even things like the Securetech PPP items, "forearm guards", "arm and leg casings", "shin guards": these items are worn on BOTH limbs, not just one.

...

Anyway: IMO either ruling is simply a matter of "how do you interpret this rule - which was not written to be explicitly clear enough?"

And there's an easy solution to that: post on the LWD forum for HL:Shadowrun, and ask that it at least be made an optional rule to apply some or all of a Cyberlimb's armor to a character's overall body. As I am already registered for that forum, I shall do so myself in just a moment. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

People can and do die from being hit in the limbs. There isn't a safe place to get hit.

Protecting your groin and thighs can increase your armor value. I can even wear glass wings that give me +1/+1 armor. You make generic called shots to bypass armor that work even if you're completely covered in military armor. Also what happens if I do shell out the nuyen for 4 limbs and a cybertorso with Armor 4? Does the armor now provide complete protection? If so how (average, stacking, or what)? When's the cut-off? Two limbs? The torso?

There are problems about cyberlimb armor is too good, but that's very different from arguing that it works in a way unlike its other armor and cyberware armor counterparts. Not only is Shadowrun not a hit location based system, Hero Labs isn't the place to change how it works.

As for bringing it to the HL forums, I actually was working on a post for this and other topics.
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_Pax._
post May 3 2012, 03:13 PM
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QUOTE (KarmaInferno @ May 3 2012, 09:30 AM) *
If there is a rules correction that needs to be made, it should be coming from Catalyst, not Lone Wolf.

... um ... where did you get the idea I was asking for any such thing?

I asked LWD to change their program, or at least make it optional, so that it could work the way you read it.
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_Pax._
post May 3 2012, 03:51 PM
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Yeah, upon reflection: I will definitely be houseruling Cyberlimb armor to cost more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and some Capacity, in my games. It's just too damned good as-is.

Really, I know this is an edge-case, but: Nartaki. Six alpha-grade cyberlimbs, each with 2 points of armor. Alpha grade Orthoskin (3). Armor jcket. Securetech PPP (everything except the helmet). Body 5 (including for the limbs).

Nuyen cost? 293,400 (so he won't have much ELSE, without taking "In Debt" - and has to have "Born Rich" so he can pump more BP into starting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ).
Essence? 0.2 left.

Next thing to unkillable, with physical damage at least: 25/25 armor. Heck, with the family jewels flappin' in the breeze, he's got 15/15 ...!!
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Caadium
post May 3 2012, 03:54 PM
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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ May 2 2012, 09:55 PM) *
There is an editor that you can adjust the datafiles - or even create your own from scratch (useful, since for example: the German-produced stuff probably won't get an official release from LWD).


I recently picked it up as well. I've fiddled with the editor a bit in Pathfinder, and had a reason to use it in Shadowrun, and its pretty easy for equipment and cyber. I've not tried it for rules yet though.
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Shinobi Killfist
post May 4 2012, 11:09 PM
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QUOTE (_Pax._ @ May 3 2012, 11:51 AM) *
Yeah, upon reflection: I will definitely be houseruling Cyberlimb armor to cost more (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and some Capacity, in my games. It's just too damned good as-is.

Really, I know this is an edge-case, but: Nartaki. Six alpha-grade cyberlimbs, each with 2 points of armor. Alpha grade Orthoskin (3). Armor jcket. Securetech PPP (everything except the helmet). Body 5 (including for the limbs).

Nuyen cost? 293,400 (so he won't have much ELSE, without taking "In Debt" - and has to have "Born Rich" so he can pump more BP into starting (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) ).
Essence? 0.2 left.

Next thing to unkillable, with physical damage at least: 25/25 armor. Heck, with the family jewels flappin' in the breeze, he's got 15/15 ...!!


Totally can see why. In our game the GM decided all cyber/bio based armor values are halved before stacking. And he doe snot allow staking from worn armor like form fitting etc. Too cheap and adds to dice pool bloat. As for your armor tank guy, yeah that is extreme. We had a full borg in one of our games at 2 armor per location, he rolled a crap ton of dice to resist damage but he was slower than the other combat guys and magic and toxins still screwed him. Especially since he cheesed it and had a 1 attribute in body, strength, agility saving tons of his 200 for other stats since those would all be cyber. 1 body does not resist toxins very well.
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_Pax._
post May 4 2012, 11:27 PM
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As I posted on JackPoint:

Cost:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 500 nuyen, Rating * [2] Capacity
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 1,000 nuyen, Rating * [4] Capacity
Availability:
... Obvious Armor (Obvious limbs only): Rating * 4R
... Concealed Armor (All types): Rating * 6R
Rating Limits:
... Hand/Foot: not available
... Half limb: 1 point (each limb)
... Full limb: 2 points (each limb)
... Torso: 3 points
... Skull: 2 points
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