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UmaroVI
post Aug 14 2011, 03:40 AM
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Archetypes Overview
The Archetypes are a replacement for the Sample Characters provided in SR4A. They are specifically intended for Shadowrun Missions and are fully compatible with the SRM rules. They can be used in non-Missions games as well, with a few caveats (see below), such as ignoring references to SRM-specific rules (such as how downtime activities work).

NEW
5 new archetypes added - the Magical Rocker, Martial Artist, Former Neoprimitive, Gunslinger, and Info Savant. In particular there are now 4 of each metatype other than dwarves (of which there are 2), and more adepts.

Why replace the sample characters?
The sample characters are neither suitable as pregenerated sheets for new players to use, nor useful as examples of how to make characters. They have widely varying levels of effectiveness (compare the Weapons Specialist to the Street Samurai or the Enforcer), many of them cannot do the job they claim to be able to do (the smuggler cannot smuggle things, for example), and many of them are built in strange or illogical ways. They are also difficult to use, because they don’t list all necessary information on their character sheets. Lastly, they aren’t fully Missions-compatible (for example, the Occult Investigator has Mind Probe, which isn’t allowed in missions).

The Archetypes fix these problems. They are built to a fairly uniform power level, and they all clearly advertise what they are and are not good at. Not only do they list all the game information needed to sit down and play them (such as the effects of spells, common dice pools, damage of weapons, and statistics of vehicles and drones), they also have a list of recommended ways to spend karma and nuyen with the costs pre-calculated, for easy between-Missions upgrading (useful for convention play, or for new players who are overwhelmed by the number of options).

All of the Archetypes have “hooks” that make it easier for players to get into the character and add unique elements to their version of an Archetype, as well as a few open Knowledge Skills (along with a list players can select from) to add a bit more uniqueness.

Finally, to be more friendly to new players, all the Archetypes have a “Tactics” section that lays out the basic way the characters operate and explains the typical use of each character’s abilities.

Design principles:
In general, all the characters favor passive and automatic effects (such as Improved Ability) over active-use preemptive abilities (such as Attribute Boost). Similarly, they have minimal amounts of “widget” gear - meaning small, situational pieces of equipment that are easy to forget you have and that you have to remember to use. The reason for both of these design choices is to make the characters easier on new players; sheets filled with lots of little things that only help in narrow circumstances and with abilities that you have to use in advance rather than activate “on the fly” when they come up are much harder to handle when you haven’t seen the character before and aren’t highly familiar with the game system.

All of the characters are designed with about a 70%-30% focus on effectiveness “as-is” versus long-term karma and nuyen efficiency. Obviously, this varies a bit from archetype to archetype, but at the very minimum none of them are missing anything they need to perform their stated roles, even if it means having some gear that they will want to throw away and replace after finishing their first run.

All of the characters are designed for a relatively high level of optimization, for several reasons. First, it’s a lot easier to weaken characters than to strengthen them. Second, the players of Archetypes will usually be newer players: they should be able to play alongside characters with more karma run by more experienced players, without being unable to contribute.

All characters are designed to wear acceptably discrete armor - typically armored clothing with discrete armor worn underneath. None of the characters start play with Restricted or Forbidden armor.

All of the characters have at least one weapon (or attack) that is Restricted, concealable, or both; many characters also own unconcealable and/or Forbidden weapons, but none of them rely on such weapons to be effective.

The Tactics section maintains the polite fiction that Stick-n-shock is for taking people alive, rather than for any situation other than fighting Stun-immune targets or intentionally killing people at the cost of taking them down less quickly. All characters who use guns own both Stick-n-shock ammo and lethal ammo; the intention is to facilitate both tables where Stick-n-shock is prevalent, and also tables that have a “gentlemen’s agreement” not to use it as a default attack.

Similarly, the characters with Summoning/Compiling have fairly conservative suggestions about the force of the spirits/sprites they should typically call, but of course have the option of higher-force summoning.

All of the characters have 35 points of Negative Qualities, with an emphasis on “personality flaws.” This is to give players immediate hooks they can use to get in character, and to make the Archetypes more distinctive. If you don’t have time to make a whole character from scratch and want to instead personalize an Archetype before play, swapping negative qualities for other ones is a good idea.

All of the characters have an appropriate contact. Characters with poor social skills tend to have higher connection-rating contacts to give them more to do during the Legwork portions of adventures.

As an overall design principle, more specialized characters aim to be excellent at all the aspects of their area of expertise. Less specialized characters aim to be pretty good at critical aspects of the areas they cover. For example, characters who are not very combat focused aim to be good with one type of weapon rather than subpar with every type of weapon. More combat focused characters aim to be very good with several types of weapons (including at least one weapon for any given niche), rather than incredibly amazing with a single particular weapon.

Excluded options:
None of the characters use any of the following, even though they are (strictly speaking) permitted in missions, and most if not all of the characters would benefit.

-Cyberhands and Cyberfeet with Armor Enhancement
-Emotitoys and Empathy Software (including not advising the Technomancer to thread them)
-Multiple Grenades
-Softweave Armor
-MRSI software
-Iron Will
-Dump stats were kept to the following standards: most of the characters have all or all but one ability score at 2 or higher. A minority (the Technoshaman and the Transhuman Mystic) have two ability scores at 1.
-None of the characters are metavariants, Changelings, or sapient critters.
-The characters avoid, as much as possible, the use of any spells, powers, or equipment with unclear mechanics. For example, the Technomancer is not advised to take the Swap echo, because it isn’t clear how it works and different GMs may rule it works in very different ways.

Rules assumptions:
There are several places where the rules are unclear. There’s simply no way to design all the characters to work under all possible interpretations of every rule, so instead, I will outline the assumptions the characters were built under.

Cyberlimb Averaging: It is unclear how cyberlimb averaging was intended to work as the example appears to contradict the text and the math used isn’t explicitly shown. The archetypes assume the most conservative (ie, weakest for the cyberlimb user) interpretation that doesn’t directly contradict the example, which also appears to be the most widely held version.
a) The skull is considered a “partial limb” and is not used except in tests that directly and exclusively involve it (just like hands or feet).
b) The torso is a full limb.
c) Tasks that involve one limb and one limb only use that limb’s stats and only that limb’s stats, regardless of whether it is partial or full. The characters were designed to not bring up questions like “does firing a SMG use only my hand, or does it use my forearm, or my entire arm?”
d) Tasks involving clear and specific sets of limbs use the average or the minimum, depending on the GM’s judgement of whether it requires a combined effort or careful coordination. Examples include running (both legs) and firing two-handed guns (both arms). Only full limbs are averaged; partial limbs do not apply in either case.
e) Tasks that involve no specific body parts, such as encumbrance from armor or damage resistance, average the torso, both legs, and both arms. The characters base stats are averaged in multiple times if appropriate; for example, a character with a cybertorso, one cyberarm, and one cyberleg would have an “average Body” of [(base Body)x2 + cyber torso body + cyber arm body + cyber leg body]/5

The only more conservative commonly held interpretation that I am aware of counts the head as a full limb. However, this leads to either the nonsensical conclusion that the head is not involved in resisting damage, or contradicts the example given on page 343 of SR4A.

In any game that has houserules or a different interpretation of the rules from the above, all of the characters with cyberlimbs will need to be significantly reconstructed.

Threading: Threading is an action that takes no time, and a technomancer can choose to keep less hits than they roll on a threading test. Thus, a technomancer can in theory Thread, discard all the hits, and try again, until they either get as many hits as they want, roll no hits (in which case they must take -2 to retry), or glitch/critically glitch.

The Technoshaman is built in such a way as to still work if the Threading rules are not used as written, but the Tactics section assumes no houserules. No changes need to be made to the Technoshaman at tables that houserule Threading to bar or limit retries.

Skill caps: I assume that the skill caps are (unaugmented attribute plus unaugmented skill)x2 or 20, whichever is higher; ie, the Improved Ability adept power and other effects that increase skills do not raise the skill cap.

I assume that for Matrix tests, the cap is set by (unaugmented) Complex Form or Program rating and skill, not by Logic and skill. If Logic and skill is used to set the cap, the Technoshaman should be significantly rebuilt or not played.

Control Device: It is not uniformly agreed upon what you can and cannot “remote control” in order to replace your ability score with Command; for example, can the Mercenary Rigger use Control Device on his medkit to provide first aid? None of the characters are built around the assumption that you can Control Device anything and everything in this way, but a number of them (such as the Mercenary Rigger and Technoshaman) would benefit from doing so if allowed.

Missions Specific Design Choices
There are some things that might not be immediately obvious that result from the characters being designed for Shadowrun Missions; these are listed mostly to help anyone who wants to use the Archetypes characters in non-Missions games.

In general, all of the characters are designed with choices of skills and abilities that I have observed to be useful in Missions games I have run or played in personally.

Contacts: All the characters have a Contact from Season 4 of Shadowrun Missions. You may want to replace these if you are playing a different season or a non-missions game. The missions format tends not to reward very heavy investment in contacts at character creation, so there aren’t any characters who spent more than 9 points on contacts (but everyone has at least 1).

Licenses: Per Bull’s preferences, Fake Licenses are based on “common sense” things that characters would have licenses for - such as a license to practice magic - rather than the way the Sample Characters have a separate fake license for each restricted item (even to the point of having two fake licenses in order to own two copies of the same gun).

Optional Rules: The characters assume that no optional rules (aside from those explicitly included, like extra recoil compensation for high Strength) are used, and that no “at the GM’s discretion, characters may take...” abilities are permitted. Specific “game-changers” commonly used in non-missions games:
1) Martial arts. Every character except the pure mages and the Technoshaman would benefit from some investment in martial arts otherwise.
2) Way of the Adept. The Negotiator should probably have a Way, if Way of the Adept is allowed.
3) Custom streams and traditions: All the magical and emerged characters would benefit from having a customized tradition or stream.

Possession: Possession traditions are banned in Missions, so there are no Possession-tradition magicians or mystic adepts.

Mental spells: Mental spells are banned in missions, so none of the magicians know any mental spells.

Specializations: Missions allows only the specializations listed under the skill entries in SR4A, in all of their vague and inconsistent glory. This causes a whole host of oddities such as Unarmed (Martial Arts), Pilot Ground Craft (Wheeled), no Pistols specialization that covers the Ruger Thunderbolt, et cetera.

The Archetypes:
Archetypes Spreadsheet that gives a general idea of what the Archetypes are and what they do.
Burnout Combat Mage: a cybered Dwarf magician focused on combat magic.
Spirit Medium: an Elf magician focused on summoning.
Magical Rocker, a human magician focused on flashy combat magic and rocking out.
Paranormal Detective: an Ork magician focused on detection and illusion.
Transhuman Mystic: a Dwarf cybered mystic adept focused on magically-enhanced physical combat and B&E.
Negotiator: an Elf cybered adept with a mix of social and physical combat skills.
Martial Artist, a troll augmented adept focused on melee combat and social skills.
Former Neoprimitive, a troll augmented adept who uses archaic throwing weapons to great effect.
Gunslinger, a human augmented adept focused on mastery of pistols.
Ronin: an Ork street samurai, focused on an even mix of toughness, melee combat, and ranged combat.
Ghost: an Elf street samurai, focused on ranged combat.
Bad Enough Trog: a Troll street samurai, focused on toughness.
Mercenary Rigger: an Ork rigger, with secondary skills in hacking, B&E, and physical combat.
Generalist: a Human face/street samurai/hacker.
Spook: a Human face/street samurai/B&E specialist.
Combat Hacker: a Troll hacker/street samurai.
Technoshaman: an Elf technomancer focused on hacking, with secondary rigging.
Info Savant, an ork technomancer focused on rigging, with hacking secondary.
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LurkerOutThere
post Aug 14 2011, 04:07 AM
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Very cool project, of course it kind of stinks that you've only got 2 humans on the list.
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Abdul Alhazred
post Aug 14 2011, 05:50 AM
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Love it. I was actually looking for a Rigger to work off of to make a character.

Much love.
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CanRay
post Aug 14 2011, 06:31 AM
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*Inhales deeply, holds it, then slowly exhales* One love?
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Bushw4cker
post Aug 14 2011, 06:34 AM
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Ballistic 27 Impact 25 Armor for the Troll?! Are you kidding?! I don't think I'd let a player have half that amount of armor. If that character got hit with a Cruise Missile (24P damage) and the attacker only got 1 success, the damage would be converted to Stun. And with 30+ dice to roll, there's a chance he might not even be knocked unconscious. The Heaviest Military Armor doesn't even offer that kind of Protection.
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Neurosis
post Aug 14 2011, 06:48 AM
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Minor quibbles aside and unvoiced, this is an immensely laudable undertaking.
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CanRay
post Aug 14 2011, 07:00 AM
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QUOTE (Bushw4cker @ Aug 14 2011, 01:34 AM) *
Ballistic 27 Impact 25 Armor for the Troll?! Are you kidding?! I don't think I'd let a player have half that amount of armor. If that character got hit with a Cruise Missile (24P damage) and the attacker only got 1 success, the damage would be converted to Stun. And with 30+ dice to roll, there's a chance he might not even be knocked unconscious. The Heaviest Military Armor doesn't even offer that kind of Protection.
"I don't like doors any more." - Character in a John Ringo novel after taking a claymore mine to the chest.
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Cain
post Aug 14 2011, 07:00 AM
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May I suggest that you also look at the Dumpshock Character Archive?

It was started for much the reasons you describe. The focus of the sample characters is similar, although it doesn't have an overriding design philosophy.

I didn't do much work on those characters, but I helped start the Dumpshock project, due to certain... objections I had about the sample characters. I'm sure the original thread can be viewed if you want to dig it up.
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PeteThe1
post Aug 14 2011, 07:10 AM
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How is it half of them have a min-maxed cyberarm designed to give even the non-combat characters bigger die pools than a 'normal' starting samurai? Never mind the crazy people in the twenties. There is such a thing as too optimized, especially for purported archetypes.
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Cain
post Aug 14 2011, 07:20 AM
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QUOTE (PeteThe1 @ Aug 14 2011, 12:10 AM) *
How is it half of them have a min-maxed cyberarm designed to give even the non-combat characters bigger die pools than a 'normal' starting samurai? Never mind the crazy people in the twenties. There is such a thing as too optimized, especially for purported archetypes.


That's because the "normal" (sample SR4.5 starting) samurai, frankly, *sucks*.

The problem with SR4.5 isn't that you can create gimped characters, or that you can create overpowering ones: it's that you can both kinds of characters in the exact same game, which drains all the fun out of it. If everyone sucks equally, that's not a problem; but some of the sample characters suck more than others. The goal of a sample character archive is to give everyone a more equal starting point, or at least something to shoot for. That way, there won't be a huge power disparity.
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Glyph
post Aug 14 2011, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE (PeteThe1 @ Aug 13 2011, 11:10 PM) *
How is it half of them have a min-maxed cyberarm designed to give even the non-combat characters bigger die pools than a 'normal' starting samurai? Never mind the crazy people in the twenties. There is such a thing as too optimized, especially for purported archetypes.

The weakness of one person, however dedicated, creating a bunch of archetypes is that people tend to have favorite guns, skills, cyberware combos, etc. You will also see several of the archetypes with almost the same set of firearms, and ammo tends to be either EX explosive or stick-N-shock. I fiddle with characters a lot, and I have noticed the same tendency in myself. On the other hand, one person doing a set of archetypes ensures a certain design philosophy and internal consistency among them.

I don't really consider a character "too optimized" unless that character is using cheesy rules exploits (and the OP specifically avoided a lot of munchkin tactics such as empathy software, or getting cyberhands and cyberfeet just to add armor to them), or blatantly doesn't fit the campaign (and these characters are specifically designed for Missions - they are powerful so that new players can hang with the more experienced runners they will be working with).
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Abdul Alhazred
post Aug 14 2011, 01:13 PM
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Could we move this to Community Projects so it won't get buried ?
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 14 2011, 01:22 PM
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I've only skimmed the characters you've created, but I like the overall idea. I especially like your openly-set-out design principles. Particularly that you want to avoid rule usage that's often disputed or whose interpretation is unclear.

I'm not too shocked about your widespread usage of cyberlimbs as other people. In the real world, if some tactic works well, people in the same business tend to adopt it as a best practice. The same could apply to cyberlimbs - they're a quick route to being dangerous in a fight. That's obvious IC, so why shouldn't there be copycats?
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suoq
post Aug 14 2011, 01:48 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 14 2011, 07:22 AM) *
In the real world, if some tactic works well, people in the same business tend to adopt it as a best practice. The same could apply to cyberlimbs - they're a quick route to being dangerous in a fight.

Alas, that's not the root cause. The root cause is this is what happens when one person builds all the archtypes. Some known cheese becomes common (cyberlimbs, rating 6 medkits). Some know cheese becomes deliberately avoided (Empathy software). Some design decisions are simply odd (Public and private commlinks are standard but both are left undefended on most characters. Even the hacker has, for his public commlink, a Meta Link with Vector Xim and no firewall.)

You would see the same thing if I ever got off my butt and did the Omae/Chummer project I'm thinking of. My personal design trends would creep into all characters I would build. Personally, I like the work and hope it continues. They're certainly better choices than the in-the-book archtypes and they allow someone to just grab a character and go.
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UmaroVI
post Aug 14 2011, 02:38 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 14 2011, 03:00 AM) *
May I suggest that you also look at the Dumpshock Character Archive?

It was started for much the reasons you describe. The focus of the sample characters is similar, although it doesn't have an overriding design philosophy.

I didn't do much work on those characters, but I helped start the Dumpshock project, due to certain... objections I had about the sample characters. I'm sure the original thread can be viewed if you want to dig it up.


I've seen the Sample Character Archive and that was some of what made me think of doing this; as you say, the main problem I had with it was a lack of overriding design philosophy leading to the different characters not being well-balanced against one another.

QUOTE
Ballistic 27 Impact 25 Armor for the Troll?! Are you kidding?! I don't think I'd let a player have half that amount of armor. If that character got hit with a Cruise Missile (24P damage) and the attacker only got 1 success, the damage would be converted to Stun. And with 30+ dice to roll, there's a chance he might not even be knocked unconscious. The Heaviest Military Armor doesn't even offer that kind of Protection.

QUOTE
How is it half of them have a min-maxed cyberarm designed to give even the non-combat characters bigger die pools than a 'normal' starting samurai? Never mind the crazy people in the twenties. There is such a thing as too optimized, especially for purported archetypes.


As Cain and Glyph pointed out, it's far more important that the characters are balanced against each other. Missions tends to both have a fairly high level of optimization, and also needs to allow characters with no karma to work with characters with 100 karma and still be useful.

It's also, as I said, much easier to weaken characters then strengthen them if you want to use them at a table that considers things like Rating 6 medkits to be the height of cheese.

QUOTE
The weakness of one person, however dedicated, creating a bunch of archetypes is that people tend to have favorite guns, skills, cyberware combos, etc. You will also see several of the archetypes with almost the same set of firearms, and ammo tends to be either EX explosive or stick-N-shock. I fiddle with characters a lot, and I have noticed the same tendency in myself. On the other hand, one person doing a set of archetypes ensures a certain design philosophy and internal consistency among them.

That's certainly true; keep in mind, though, that some of this results from issues within the SR ruleset - some guns are simply better than others, some armor types are better than others, etc. Other parts (for example, the sensor suites) are simply a major nuisance to redesign from scratch.

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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 14 2011, 03:22 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 14 2011, 12:20 AM) *
That's because the "normal" (sample SR4.5 starting) samurai, frankly, *sucks*.


That is strictly an opinion, Cain. I actually LIKE the starting Samurai.

QUOTE
The problem with SR4.5 isn't that you can create gimped characters, or that you can create overpowering ones: it's that you can both kinds of characters in the exact same game, which drains all the fun out of it. If everyone sucks equally, that's not a problem; but some of the sample characters suck more than others. The goal of a sample character archive is to give everyone a more equal starting point, or at least something to shoot for. That way, there won't be a huge power disparity.



If every one is super, no one is. Disparity is what makes a story. How you overcome the obstacles is a Story. If you always win, where is the Story?
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 14 2011, 03:30 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 14 2011, 02:48 PM) *
Alas, that's not the root cause. The root cause is this is what happens when one person builds all the archtypes. Some known cheese becomes common (cyberlimbs, rating 6 medkits). Some know cheese becomes deliberately avoided (Empathy software).


I don't get why Rating 6 medkits would be cheese. (Actually, I don't see why they had to give medkits ratings, instead of just fixing all of them at R6. There's no reason to go lower, so why add fake complexity to CharGen?)

Whether cyberlimbs are cheese is arguable. Personally I don't think so. Is your objection more OOC or IC?

OOC, it's obvious that cyberlimbs are powerful, and especially powerful considering the price. But are they unbalanced? Are they so powerful that you have to take them? I think they do a decent job (given the Essence price) of giving the non-Awakened something to fight back with.

IC, it's technology. Performance can be measured, people can post reviews on ShadowTweakers about which builds work well. So it makes sense to copy powerful builds. (I think that technology is exactly one area where it can actually be good roleplaying for a tech-savvy character to heavily optimize. Because that's what engineering is for: to achieve the best performance for your situation. That's what hackers do.)

QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 14 2011, 02:48 PM) *
Some design decisions are simply odd (Public and private commlinks are standard but both are left undefended on most characters. Even the hacker has, for his public commlink, a Meta Link with Vector Xim and no firewall.)


Eh, that's bound to happen I guess. I must admit I didn't review the stats thoroughly, I find reading other people's stat blocks to be extremely boring. (I also think SR has way to many stats and particularly equipment with sub-stats to keep track of.)

QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 14 2011, 02:48 PM) *
You would see the same thing if I ever got off my butt and did the Omae/Chummer project I'm thinking of. My personal design trends would creep into all characters I would build. Personally, I like the work and hope it continues. They're certainly better choices than the in-the-book archtypes and they allow someone to just grab a character and go.


I'd make things differently too I guess. It would also matter if you decided on the outset that all archetypes would be built for Pink Mohawk or Black Mirrorshades - the amount of detectable, visible stuff for example, and the amount of points that go into stealth.
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CanRay
post Aug 14 2011, 03:31 PM
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"Face is hurt, man, hurt bad. Combat Monster, you have to go out and find the guy that did it. You're going to have to" *Shudders* "Investigate and be sociable."

"... ... ..."

"Talk to people without hurting them."

"... ... ..."

"It's like what you normally do, without the stabbing."

"Don't stab people when talking."

"Right."

*Walks away* "No stabbing, no stabbing, no stabbing..."
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suoq
post Aug 14 2011, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 14 2011, 10:30 AM) *
I don't get why Rating 6 medkits would be cheese.
They provide a first aid skill of 6 and give a +6 bonus to it for 1/5 of the price of rating 6 empathy software (which needs a commlink that can run it....)

QUOTE
Are they so powerful that you have to take them?
5 characters took them. Throw out the guys with high magic ratings that didn't take the essence hit, and while it's not "have to take", you can see it from there. I find it interesting that there are more cyberarms than orcs, given orcs unbalanced BP cost.
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CanRay
post Aug 14 2011, 04:09 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 14 2011, 10:30 AM) *
I don't get why Rating 6 medkits would be cheese.
Yeah, they're powerful, but they've also been around since 1st Edition, IIRC.

'Runners are likely to have the R6 Medkits, but can lose them easily enough as well. And then they're stuck with "Band-Aid Brand Junior-Medic MedKit", which they stole out of some drekky apartment and is Rating 1. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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PeteThe1
post Aug 14 2011, 06:40 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 14 2011, 08:30 AM) *
Whether cyberlimbs are cheese is arguable. Personally I don't think so. Is your objection more OOC or IC?

OOC, it's obvious that cyberlimbs are powerful, and especially powerful considering the price. But are they unbalanced? Are they so powerful that you have to take them? I think they do a decent job (given the Essence price) of giving the non-Awakened something to fight back with.


They were useless for 3 editions, then suddenly they become a way for anyone to be frighteningly effective for not a huge investment? Thats unbalancing and doesn't seem to fit with the spirit of things.

Particularly when the corebook puts your average ganger or corp-sec at a pool of 7. Or veteran Red Samurai or Tir Ghosts, the best of the best, at 15.
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post Aug 14 2011, 06:56 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 14 2011, 09:30 AM) *
I don't get why Rating 6 medkits would be cheese. (Actually, I don't see why they had to give medkits ratings, instead of just fixing all of them at R6. There's no reason to go lower, so why add fake complexity to CharGen?)


It's a house rule, but I give the different rating medkits vastly different sizes. A Rating 1 medkit is about the size of a nice thick paperback novel. It has a small diagnostic computer, and a compartment that carries a few highly compressed bandages, a small bottle of rubbing alchohol, scissors, thread, and some asprin style painkillers. This is the average 'home' style first aid kit.

Rating 2 and 3 medkits come as a large fanny pack or large pouch that can fit onto combat webbing. They have stuff like real painkillers of the opiate variety, spray on skin, trauma patches, things like that. Its the sort of stuff you might expect a combat medic to actually cart around into the field.

Rating 4 and 5 medkits is when you start getting into autodoc territory. They are the size of a decent briefcase and weigh about 30 lbs. They contain much more extensive diagnostic equipment as well as much more effective supplies. This would be the sort of medkit that a mechanized infantry unit might keep in the AFV and pull out when needed.

The Rating 6 Medkit is man portable only in the loosest sense of the word. It is technically intended for forward aid stations on actual battlefields and weighs about 80 lbs. It's a large backpack and contains sufficant diagnostic equipment and supplies to perform emergency field surgery if necessary.

There is also a "nanite medkit" in existence that clocks in at rating 6 but is only the size of a rating 2 or 3 kit. These are top of the line SOTA pieces of tech though and priced accordingly.
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post Aug 14 2011, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (PeteThe1 @ Aug 14 2011, 03:10 AM) *
How is it half of them have a min-maxed cyberarm designed to give even the non-combat characters bigger die pools than a 'normal' starting samurai? Never mind the crazy people in the twenties. There is such a thing as too optimized, especially for purported archetypes.


Yeah, I mean, honestly the NPCs in Missions (I can't think of another place people'd be likely to play a pregen) are not really statted in such a way as to put up any but the flimsiest resistance to some of these super-characters. But I still hold that this is a laudable effort, especially in theory.

I don't think that R6 Medkits or for that matter R6 Respirators really qualify as cheese. They're just things that every runner should have with them all the time with the current rules.

Also, @imperialus, that is quite a house rule!

QUOTE
That is strictly an opinion, Cain. I actually LIKE the starting Samurai.


It is certainly better than some of the other sample characters.
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Glyph
post Aug 14 2011, 08:00 PM
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It's not that cyberlimbs are ubiquitous all of a sudden - they are simply favored by the OP. They aren't really unbalancing compared to all of the other options out there - there are tons and tons of different ways to optimize characters. If I had been the one doing them, you probably wouldn't have seen any cyberlimbs at all, but would have seen the restricted gear quality and muscle toner: 4 for most of the combat types.

Also, the core book mooks are not a great baseline for comparisons. In my opinion, the simplification involved greatly weakened the supposedly more powerful types such as Red Samurai and Ghosts. The published adventures tend to have NPCs with things such as specializations, and heavier augmentations.

This set of characters has been optimized for clearly stated reasons - they are for play in a campaign where the other characters tend to be optimized, and where new characters get tossed in the mix with 100+ karma characters. They would be out of line if they were, say, suggested archetypes for a game of street punks from the Barrens and Noir-ish, lightly augmented types such as bitter ex-cops and private detectives. But for what they are intended for, they are fine (assuming the OP is right about the Missions power level - I don't play Missions, so I can't confirm that).
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Shinobi Killfist
post Aug 14 2011, 09:14 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 14 2011, 03:20 AM) *
That's because the "normal" (sample SR4.5 starting) samurai, frankly, *sucks*.

The problem with SR4.5 isn't that you can create gimped characters, or that you can create overpowering ones: it's that you can both kinds of characters in the exact same game, which drains all the fun out of it. If everyone sucks equally, that's not a problem; but some of the sample characters suck more than others. The goal of a sample character archive is to give everyone a more equal starting point, or at least something to shoot for. That way, there won't be a huge power disparity.


The 4.5 samurai is perfectly fine.

As for the power disparity the problem isn't that it is there, but that it isn't labeled. Something like grouping them into street/low level campaign, experienced runner etc. would show that the system easily handles a wide range of play styles even with starting at the same BP. If a group of players would be grabbing the archetypes to use it would be suggested each player come form the same power level. As is you bump into the problem where new people wont notice that X archetype is weaker compared to Y archetype and they wont work out to well on the same team, both for the players and the GM.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Aug 14 2011, 09:17 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 14 2011, 11:50 AM) *
They provide a first aid skill of 6 and give a +6 bonus to it for 1/5 of the price of rating 6 empathy software (which needs a commlink that can run it....)

5 characters took them. Throw out the guys with high magic ratings that didn't take the essence hit, and while it's not "have to take", you can see it from there. I find it interesting that there are more cyberarms than orcs, given orcs unbalanced BP cost.


I kind of think the first aid rules in 4e were designed around the idea that all the players would take a rating 6 medkit. i mean all it really goes is get you past the threshold in most cases. You still need you logic+skill to heal anyone to a decent degree.
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 14 2011, 09:20 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 14 2011, 04:50 PM) *
They provide a first aid skill of 6 and give a +6 bonus to it for 1/5 of the price of rating 6 empathy software (which needs a commlink that can run it....)


The medkit rules are kinda broken, but that has nothing to do with the Rating, but with the weird skill-substituting rule. (And the hits cap.)

I don't think there's anything wrong with a PC having a medkit. If he's going to have a medkit, why not take the best one, given the price?



QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 14 2011, 04:50 PM) *
5 characters took them. Throw out the guys with high magic ratings that didn't take the essence hit, and while it's not "have to take", you can see it from there. I find it interesting that there are more cyberarms than orcs, given orcs unbalanced BP cost.


If it's "have to take", then you should take it, or change the rule system. No need to nerf your character on purpose just to be purer-than-thou.

If it's not "have to take", but it just felt like a good choice for the character, what's wrong with it?

More variety might be possible. Muscle Toner 4 is a good alternative.



Personally, the real variety-killer is IMHO the Increase Reflexes spell.
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Glyph
post Aug 14 2011, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 14 2011, 02:20 PM) *
Personally, the real variety-killer is IMHO the Increase Reflexes spell.

Kind of hard to avoid that, though. Several different types of initiative enhancers make sense for 'ware, but there's no reason to have several spells that do more or less the same thing. Although for combat in general, magic does offer more variety, since there is the increase Reaction spell (only practical with a high-rating sustaining focus, unless you have a low Reaction to begin with), and then the choice of either combat sense or deflection.

Increase reflexes is definitely a must-have for pure mages, but likewise, smartlinks are a must-have for nearly any character that uses firearms (the exception being dual-wielding builds).
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 15 2011, 12:52 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 14 2011, 10:53 PM) *
Kind of hard to avoid that, though. Several different types of initiative enhancers make sense for 'ware, but there's no reason to have several spells that do more or less the same thing. Although for combat in general, magic does offer more variety, since there is the increase Reaction spell (only practical with a high-rating sustaining focus, unless you have a low Reaction to begin with), and then the choice of either combat sense or deflection.

Increase reflexes is definitely a must-have for pure mages, but likewise, smartlinks are a must-have for nearly any character that uses firearms (the exception being dual-wielding builds).


I know, it's just annoying. No helping it I guess (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)
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Cain
post Aug 15 2011, 02:18 AM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 14 2011, 02:14 PM) *
The 4.5 samurai is perfectly fine.

As for the power disparity the problem isn't that it is there, but that it isn't labeled. Something like grouping them into street/low level campaign, experienced runner etc. would show that the system easily handles a wide range of play styles even with starting at the same BP. If a group of players would be grabbing the archetypes to use it would be suggested each player come form the same power level. As is you bump into the problem where new people wont notice that X archetype is weaker compared to Y archetype and they wont work out to well on the same team, both for the players and the GM.

Rather you consider it to be a bug or a feature, the problem is still there.

Heck, I've got a troll tank in my game who maxes out at 25+ armor, all legally. He gets away with it by not being allowed to wear it in anything but a straight-up assault situation; and even then, they tend to go after him first, offsetting his advantage in toughness by being shot at more. But the problem is, weapons that hurt him would wipe out anyone with a lesser armor value. Everyone else is learning the importance of stealth, cover, and a high Reaction/dodge.

The whole point of BP is that it's supposed to give you the same power level. However, Wakshanni on RPG.net showed that you can have very effective 320 point characters, and I can easily demonstrate how you can have a useless 500-point character. What's more, the SR4.5 BBB assumes you're using BP's as a guide to power levels: you build opposition based on a BP budget, which is insanely complex and tiresome, as well as ineffective. Since players advance with karma, and not BP, if you build opposition you need to work with those totals instead.

As far as the 4.5 samurai goes: I did design better, and I proved it. The 4.5 samurai is the same as the 4.0 samurai, and I outdid that without trying too hard. I'm not allowed to discuss the build anymore; but I'm sure that many of us could outdo the BBB archetypes in every needed area, without sacrificing much of anything.
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UmaroVI
post Aug 15 2011, 05:00 AM
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With regards to cyberarms versus alternatives:

There are indeed several effective ways to make a weapon-focused character involving different tradeoffs.

The single-cyberarm method (the route taken by the Ronin, Negotiator, Mercenary Rigger, and Generalist) is cheap, and helps your defenses out. The drawbacks to it are that it leaves your non-shooting-people agility skills (such as Infiltration) lower, and it means that you are dependant on ability replacement (thus limiting you to 20 dice forever). It also limits you to using one-handed weapons or being less effective.

The full-body replacement method (taken by the Bad Enough Trog) makes you extremely tough and gives you full use of skills and two-handed weapons, but it still limits you to 20 dice. It also eats almost all of your resources (Essence and starting money).

The Muscle Toner route (taken by the Ghost and Combat Hacker, and which the Spook really, really wants to take as soon as he saves up 32000Y) is more expensive, but it has the advantages that you can eventually (or immediately, if you are more focused like the Ghost) break 20 dice. It makes you better at Agility skills, and it lets you use two-handed weapons.

The Mind over Matter (Logic->Agility) route (taken by the Transhuman Mystic) is a somewhat oddball route that makes you good at Logic and Agility skills, lets you use two-handed weapons, but is very expensive and character-defining and won't let you break 20 dice on Agility skills.

There's also the Increase Agility route, but it requires either a specific and not-universally accepted interpretation of Heightened Concentration, or requires you wait until you can afford a sustaining focus, which is why none of the Archetypes use this method.

Part of why the single-cyberarm method is used by more archetypes is because it's the least expensive option, even if it's also the least good - there's more different things you can do with your remaining points, so it is less character-defining and there's a wider variety of substantially different characters. Muscle Toner is the 2nd most common option, whereas Mind over Matter and full-body cyber replacement are both very character defining and eat up a large amount of resources, so leave less room for differentiation.
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UmaroVI
post Aug 15 2011, 05:06 AM
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I do agree that the way Increase Reflexes is so good that every mage should have it is unfortunate, but as has been pointed out, there's really no getting around it.
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CeeJay
post Aug 15 2011, 08:06 AM
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I just had a look at the Technoshaman.

When I first read about the Rigger Cocoon modification on the Doberman drone, I thought "What the hell is that about?"

I actually had to look up the entry in Arsenal to realize, that it's indeed completey RAW to install a rigger cocoon in medium drones!
Thanks Umaro, for pointing that one out to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) You've made my day!

P.S. You could take this one logical step further and equip a LEBD-1 drone with a cocoon to create your personal aircraft. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

-CJ
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 15 2011, 08:21 AM
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QUOTE (CeeJay @ Aug 15 2011, 09:06 AM) *
I just had a look at the Technoshaman.

When I first read about the Rigger Cocoon modification on the Doberman drone, I thought "What the hell is that about?"

I actually had to look up the entry in Arsenal to realize, that it's indeed completey RAW to install a rigger cocoon in medium drones!
Thanks Umaro, for pointing that one out to me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif) You've made my day!

P.S. You could take this one logical step further and equip a LEBD-1 drone with a cocoon to create your personal aircraft. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wobble.gif)

-CJ


I'm not entirely sure that's how it works. Normally, drones are not built with space for passengers in them; a Rigger Cocoon doesn't create a seat, it just alters a seat.
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Cain
post Aug 15 2011, 08:32 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 15 2011, 12:21 AM) *
I'm not entirely sure that's how it works. Normally, drones are not built with space for passengers in them; a Rigger Cocoon doesn't create a seat, it just alters a seat.

Oh, it's technically legal, just a bit on the cheap side. The Arsenal rules don't do much differentiating between a drone and a vehicle, largely because there isn't much of one. Previous editions tried to do this, and caused even bigger cheese as a result.
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 15 2011, 09:02 AM
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It would be so convenient if we had 1) number of seats per existing vehicle, and 2) a mod to add a seat to a vehicle/drone.

Magically creating a seat in a drone by adding a rigger cocoon just feels like cheating.
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post Aug 15 2011, 09:24 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 15 2011, 11:02 AM) *
Magically creating a seat in a drone by adding a rigger cocoon just feels like cheating.

Indeed it does. But we are talking missions characters here. This would never fly at my home table...

-CJ
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Cain
post Aug 15 2011, 09:39 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 15 2011, 01:02 AM) *
It would be so convenient if we had 1) number of seats per existing vehicle, and 2) a mod to add a seat to a vehicle/drone.

Magically creating a seat in a drone by adding a rigger cocoon just feels like cheating.

Oh, it gets better.

In SR2, they had rules for essentially building vehicles from scratch. You picked a chassis, engine, etc, and built everything. You also had cost multipliers and dividers that factored into your total price. One of those was drone conversion: 0.75 cost multiplier.

The problem was, exactly what converting a vehicle into a drone wasn't clearly laid out, so you could modify anything into a drone. It was supposed to be just for vehicles with no passenger capacity, but it didn't actually spell it out, and you could add seats anyway. So, just about every vehicle was made with the drone cost reduction, simply because it was a freebie. In comparison, this trick seem relatively harmless.
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post Aug 15 2011, 10:29 AM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 14 2011, 05:30 PM) *
I don't get why Rating 6 medkits would be cheese. (Actually, I don't see why they had to give medkits ratings, instead of just fixing all of them at R6. There's no reason to go lower, so why add fake complexity to CharGen?)
Holdover from the 3rd edition. Originally, medkits had no rating, all had a Biotech skill at 3. If I remember correctly, it's only in 3rd edition book Man & Machine that medkit rating was introduced. And, as gear listed weight back then, medkits weight was their rating in kilogram. So it sorta made sense to have a light rating 1 medkit in your jacket, clipped on your belt or whatever, and the much heavier rating 6 medkit in your car.
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Ascalaphus
post Aug 15 2011, 10:41 AM
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QUOTE (Nath @ Aug 15 2011, 11:29 AM) *
Holdover from the 3rd edition. Originally, medkits had no rating, all had a Biotech skill at 3. If I remember correctly, it's only in 3rd edition book Man & Machine that medkit rating was introduced. And, as gear listed weight back then, medkits weight was their rating in kilogram. So it sorta made sense to have a light rating 1 medkit in your jacket, clipped on your belt or whatever, and the much heavier rating 6 medkit in your car.


Ah, that explains it then.
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post Aug 15 2011, 12:20 PM
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QUOTE (imperialus @ Aug 15 2011, 04:56 AM) *
They are the size of a decent briefcase and weigh about 30 lbs.
In D&D, the added layer of complexity introduced by using unfamiliar archaic measurement units is compensated for by the effect it has: of transporting the players' imagination back to ye olde ancyent tymes. But exhuming these units for present-day or near-future games doesn't really bring with it the same benefit.

I do like the concept though. It integrates well with the the Valkyrie module which costs 2 slots: the size of two rigger cocoons, each of which can contain a human. This Valkyrie module counts as Shop level equipment (Ar146) which acts as rating 8 medkit (Au124) so fits in with your scaling. (Why the Valkyrie module is only described as coming with a rating 4 medkit is beyond me.)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 15 2011, 01:31 PM
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QUOTE (Neurosis @ Aug 14 2011, 01:48 PM) *
It is certainly better than some of the other sample characters.

True. But then again, not all of them are intended to be front line combatants either. I like most of them.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 15 2011, 01:36 PM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 14 2011, 03:53 PM) *
Kind of hard to avoid that, though. Several different types of initiative enhancers make sense for 'ware, but there's no reason to have several spells that do more or less the same thing. Although for combat in general, magic does offer more variety, since there is the increase Reaction spell (only practical with a high-rating sustaining focus, unless you have a low Reaction to begin with), and then the choice of either combat sense or deflection.

Increase reflexes is definitely a must-have for pure mages, but likewise, smartlinks are a must-have for nearly any character that uses firearms (the exception being dual-wielding builds).


And even still, not everyone is going to cast the spell for the most effective possible result. I have a Mage with Magic 3, He casts the spell at Force 3. So, he can get to 3 IP. He could cast it at Force 4. But that risks Physical Drain, and though He has the dice pool to reduce it to negligible/nill effect, he does not do so. Why? Because it is PHYSICAL Damage. Might as well just put a gun to the character's head and pull the trigger. Same Effect. May be a fluff thing, but there you go.
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UmaroVI
post Aug 15 2011, 01:45 PM
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The Street Samurai is probably the best of the SR4A sample characters. You'll note that she uses cyberarms for agility replacement, in fact (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) . I don't like the Incompetence (Hacking) on a character who has no computer-related skill, ware, or gear at all (and I think whoever designed her thought that cyberlimb customization had to put your cyberlimb's stats equal to yours), but she doesn't have the serious functionality problems that characters like the Weapon Specialist do.
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squee_nabob
post Aug 15 2011, 03:20 PM
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the sample TM is bad for a TM but still better than the hacker at hacking
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Cain
post Aug 15 2011, 06:05 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 15 2011, 05:31 AM) *
True. But then again, not all of them are intended to be front line combatants either. I like most of them.

The SR4.5 street samurai is supposed to be a front-line combatant, though. Admittedly it's not as bad as the Weapons Specialist or the Smuggler, but the BBB samurai is a "combat generalist": some speed, some firepower, some tanking. Nothing truly amazing in any of those areas. You can easily afford to super-specialize in one of those three areas, making him into a better front-line combatant, without sacrificing anything.

If I were doing it, I'd go for speed first, relying on initiative to go first, before the other guys could hit me. Firepower would be second, and even then, I bet I could get a bigger primary combat dice pool. Tanking (Body + Armor) would be tertiary, I'd rely on cover and Reaction to not get hit in the first place, and have enough soak dice to handle what I needed. Still probably be equivalent.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 15 2011, 06:52 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 15 2011, 11:05 AM) *
The SR4.5 street samurai is supposed to be a front-line combatant, though. Admittedly it's not as bad as the Weapons Specialist or the Smuggler, but the BBB samurai is a "combat generalist": some speed, some firepower, some tanking. Nothing truly amazing in any of those areas. You can easily afford to super-specialize in one of those three areas, making him into a better front-line combatant, without sacrificing anything.

If I were doing it, I'd go for speed first, relying on initiative to go first, before the other guys could hit me. Firepower would be second, and even then, I bet I could get a bigger primary combat dice pool. Tanking (Body + Armor) would be tertiary, I'd rely on cover and Reaction to not get hit in the first place, and have enough soak dice to handle what I needed. Still probably be equivalent.


But WHY should they be AMAZING? There is absolutely no Need, as compared to the antagonists in the books.
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squee_nabob
post Aug 15 2011, 08:07 PM
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I think the reason to amp up the power of the sample characters, is so that if someone sits down at a new group that is playing higher powered SR, you can give them a suitable character. It is easier to weaken characters than boost them, IMHO.
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Elfenlied
post Aug 15 2011, 08:10 PM
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Personally, I like the sample characters in this thread. They actually feel playable, compared to the ones in the book. Too bad Missions ain't available here in Germany.
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Kirk
post Aug 15 2011, 08:27 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 15 2011, 04:32 AM) *
Oh, it's technically legal, just a bit on the cheap side. The Arsenal rules don't do much differentiating between a drone and a vehicle, largely because there isn't much of one. Previous editions tried to do this, and caused even bigger cheese as a result.


I would love to disallow this by Arsenal rules, page 102.
QUOTE
Medium Drones (Body 3): Medium drones range from
large dog to human or motorcycle-sized. They are unable to carry
an adult metahuman, though they could potentially carry a child
or small dwarf.


Unfortunately, there's not only the orderly (a medium drone made to act as a perambulatory autonomous stretcher), there's the good old LEBD, which happens to include this little clause:
QUOTE
When the assistance of a crime scene specialist
is required, he can jump into the drone to gives an on the spot
appraisal of the situation, along with evidence recovery.


Gads, I hate when rules are inconsistent.
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Nath
post Aug 15 2011, 08:31 PM
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I think in this context, "jumping in" refers to rigging, not to the CSI expert jumping from the police station roof to ride the drone.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 15 2011, 08:47 PM
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QUOTE (Kirk @ Aug 15 2011, 01:27 PM) *
I would love to disallow this by Arsenal rules, page 102.


Unfortunately, there's not only the orderly (a medium drone made to act as a perambulatory autonomous stretcher), there's the good old LEBD, which happens to include this little clause:


Gads, I hate when rules are inconsistent.


"Jumping In" does not mean "Riding." It is simply one method of Remote Piloting.
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Kirk
post Aug 15 2011, 09:04 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 15 2011, 04:47 PM) *
"Jumping In" does not mean "Riding." It is simply one method of Remote Piloting.


Aaaand, we see that my brain locked up. You're right. Thanks.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 15 2011, 09:13 PM
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QUOTE (Kirk @ Aug 15 2011, 02:04 PM) *
Aaaand, we see that my brain locked up. You're right. Thanks.


Heh... No Worries. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Traul
post Aug 15 2011, 09:18 PM
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You mean I have been playing my rigger wrong?
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post Aug 16 2011, 12:19 AM
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QUOTE (Traul @ Aug 15 2011, 04:18 PM) *
Rigger Wrong, CAS Bomber Pilot EXACTLY right.
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Cain
post Aug 16 2011, 04:01 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 15 2011, 11:52 AM) *
But WHY should they be AMAZING? There is absolutely no Need, as compared to the antagonists in the books.

I don't know about you, but I'd rather have an AMAZING! game than an average one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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post Aug 16 2011, 10:44 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 16 2011, 05:01 AM) *
I don't know about you, but I'd rather have an AMAZING! game than an average one. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


But if the only thing makign your game AMAZING is the stats of the characters, it's not really that amazing...
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 16 2011, 01:15 PM
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QUOTE (Mayhem_2006 @ Aug 16 2011, 04:44 AM) *
But if the only thing makign your game AMAZING is the stats of the characters, it's not really that amazing...

Exactly... Thank You!!! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Cain
post Aug 16 2011, 06:46 PM
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QUOTE (Mayhem_2006 @ Aug 16 2011, 02:44 AM) *
But if the only thing makign your game AMAZING is the stats of the characters, it's not really that amazing...

To be completely fair: with my latest game, I set out for an over-the-top experience. Everything is AMAZING!! I like high-octane action movies, and originally I wanted to run Feng Shui instead of Shadowrun 4.5. Running the game with no brakes on is a lot of fun, and a good way to destruction-test the system.
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post Aug 16 2011, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE (Bushw4cker @ Aug 14 2011, 01:34 AM) *
Ballistic 27 Impact 25 Armor for the Troll?! Are you kidding?! I don't think I'd let a player have half that amount of armor. If that character got hit with a Cruise Missile (24P damage) and the attacker only got 1 success, the damage would be converted to Stun. And with 30+ dice to roll, there's a chance he might not even be knocked unconscious. The Heaviest Military Armor doesn't even offer that kind of Protection.
Super Cyber Tank Armor Rule does that to you. Cyberlimb armor is broken in 4th edition.


More noticable to me.. you have a low opinion of the strength attribute. I think your generalist has 1 str, your Ronin advertised as melee compatible has 3! I think I prefer the remakes in the Dumpshock Character archive. I really like your discriptions, key point and dice pool summaries and extensive gear list for each character though, so kudos on that.
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tete
post Aug 16 2011, 07:51 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 16 2011, 06:46 PM) *
To be completely fair: with my latest game, I set out for an over-the-top experience. Everything is AMAZING!! I like high-octane action movies, and originally I wanted to run Feng Shui instead of Shadowrun 4.5. Running the game with no brakes on is a lot of fun, and a good way to destruction-test the system.


egads man! Thats nutts! Feng Shui doesnt have near the amount of rule complications. Though fighting a great dragon without instantly dying does make for a good tale around the table.

QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 14 2011, 03:22 PM) *
If every one is super, no one is. Disparity is what makes a story. How you overcome the obstacles is a Story. If you always win, where is the Story?


I know what you mean but I gotta disagree, while a group doesn't have to be balanced it does need to be functional. You cant have the super min/maxed mage with 20 karma for rounding out playing with the no-cyberware or magic average joe with 20 karma for rounding out, playing in the same group because... no one would hire both these guys for the same job...
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Shinobi Killfist
post Aug 16 2011, 08:34 PM
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Well the nature of point buy systems is balance of opportunity not outcome. The trick is to try to get everyone on the same page of where you want the outcome. I think most of the current SR4.5 sample characters are decent in the outcome scale of where I would like the PCs to start. Some are on the weak side but would work great in a street campaign. Can people make a "better" street samurai than the sample given, sure. But you don't need the samples to be one of the best things possible to build, in fact I think you don't want them to be. You want them to be pretty good at what they are supposed to do, which most of the samples pull off fine.
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DamienKnight
post Aug 16 2011, 08:51 PM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 16 2011, 03:34 PM) *
Well the nature of point buy systems is balance of opportunity not outcome. The trick is to try to get everyone on the same page of where you want the outcome. I think most of the current SR4.5 sample characters are decent in the outcome scale of where I would like the PCs to start. Some are on the weak side but would work great in a street campaign. Can people make a "better" street samurai than the sample given, sure. But you don't need the samples to be one of the best things possible to build, in fact I think you don't want them to be. You want them to be pretty good at what they are supposed to do, which most of the samples pull off fine.
Its not just power level that this post addresses, but some characters are missing vital gear and skills related to their supposed roles. I agree about the power level of the default prefab chars in the book, but you could not call them complete.
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suoq
post Aug 16 2011, 08:59 PM
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QUOTE (tete @ Aug 16 2011, 02:51 PM) *
I know what you mean but I gotta disagree, while a group doesn't have to be balanced it does need to be functional. You cant have the super min/maxed mage with 20 karma for rounding out playing with the no-cyberware or magic average joe with 20 karma for rounding out, playing in the same group because... no one would hire both these guys for the same job...

Star wars, Lord of the rings, x-men. The new Avengers movie will have Hawkeye, who isn't even a b-lister.
Ronin could probably be argued either way depending on how good you think the driver is and if you count the guy who gets kicked to the curb.
But top of the line for dysfunctionals working with pros on a shadowrun would be Things to do in denver when you're dead.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Aug 16 2011, 09:14 PM
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QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Aug 16 2011, 04:51 PM) *
Its not just power level that this post addresses, but some characters are missing vital gear and skills related to their supposed roles. I agree about the power level of the default prefab chars in the book, but you could not call them complete.



That is exaggerated IMO. Are there some skills gear I'd take in addition to what they have to round it out, but they can usually do the job at least at the base SR4A only level.
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post Aug 16 2011, 10:32 PM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 16 2011, 09:59 PM) *
Star wars, Lord of the rings, x-men. The new Avengers movie will have Hawkeye, who isn't even a b-lister.
Ronin could probably be argued either way depending on how good you think the driver is and if you count the guy who gets kicked to the curb.
But top of the line for dysfunctionals working with pros on a shadowrun would be Things to do in denver when you're dead.


But in a movie, it's the audience that needs to be entertained, not the actors. Power imbalance between movie characters isn't a problem for the audience. But in an RPG, it is a problem for the players, if one PC makes another one irrelevant due to differing power levels.
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Seerow
post Aug 16 2011, 11:02 PM
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Why do the characters use the average stats from cyberlimbs, but not average armor? Seriously, picking up a bunch of cyberlimbs with 3+ armor and being tougher than a tank just seems cheap, and it seems weird that getting armor on a single limb gives you more effective armor than a titanium skeleton. Making the armor average out across limbs makes more sense, and makes that troll a little less ridiculous.



Edit: On a unrelated note, an earlier post was talking about some modifications resulting in you being limited to a dicepool of 20 forever. What's that all about?
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suoq
post Aug 16 2011, 11:18 PM
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QUOTE (Ascalaphus @ Aug 16 2011, 04:32 PM) *
But in a movie, it's the audience that needs to be entertained, not the actors. Power imbalance between movie characters isn't a problem for the audience. But in an RPG, it is a problem for the players, if one PC makes another one irrelevant due to differing power levels.
It may be just me, but my experience is that differing power levels don't matter in Shadowrun as long as all the players only play their own part.
For example, I'll point at the "high powered face" thread. The face there is NOT high powered, but it doesn't matter because he's the face. It doesn't matter if he's rolling 12 dice or 20, because he's got the highest dice pool in the bunch.

In our home campaign, my character has the same dice pool for sneaky as our sneaky, but being sneaky is HER job. I ask if she wants backup but if she says no, I'll sit on the sidelines with everyone else. Likewise, I do have some social skills (less than our face but enough to deal with things if I get caught sneaking). But being the face isn't my job.

Imbalance only appears to be an issue when some player(s) wants the spotlight all the time. When the players can share the sandbox and play together, the group doesn't need to be balanced.
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UmaroVI
post Aug 16 2011, 11:40 PM
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QUOTE (Seerow @ Aug 16 2011, 06:02 PM) *
Why do the characters use the average stats from cyberlimbs, but not average armor? Seriously, picking up a bunch of cyberlimbs with 3+ armor and being tougher than a tank just seems cheap, and it seems weird that getting armor on a single limb gives you more effective armor than a titanium skeleton. Making the armor average out across limbs makes more sense, and makes that troll a little less ridiculous.



Edit: On a unrelated note, an earlier post was talking about some modifications resulting in you being limited to a dicepool of 20 forever. What's that all about?


Cyberlimbs do indeed work wierdly - but that's how they work. This has been confirmed repeatedly. Such are the consequences of an abstracted armor system, I guess.

The dice pool cap (used in SRM, and I highly recommend using it in any campaign) limits your rolled dice on skill tests to 2x(unaugmented stat + unaugmented skill) or 20, whichever is higher. So someone with 4( 8 ) Agility and skill 4 has a cap of 20, but someone with, say, 7(10) agility and 6 skill has a cap of 26.

Re: Strength
Strength has its uses (Recoil Compensation, Athletics), but it is only marginally helpful in melee - it helps you Subdue, but unless you have a whole ton of it, it doesn't help you hit people because of Shock Gloves. The Ronin benefits from melee skill because he can fight effectively with a shock glove (which is legal and concealable), and because many enemies (such as spirits and paracritters) like to melee, and it gives him a better defense check against them.
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Hida Tsuzua
post Aug 16 2011, 11:52 PM
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QUOTE (DamienKnight @ Aug 16 2011, 08:23 PM) *
More noticable to me.. you have a low opinion of the strength attribute. I think your generalist has 1 str, your Ronin advertised as melee compatible has 3! I think I prefer the remakes in the Dumpshock Character archive. I really like your discriptions, key point and dice pool summaries and extensive gear list for each character though, so kudos on that.


Part of that is that Strength is a weak attribute. Tests using it are rare, it's expensive DV-wise, and it factors into very few things. While being strong has it advantages, affording it makes you much more meh at the main stuff you want to do. As for the Ronin, he's got a good melee roll with his shock glove which doesn't care about strength. In addition, subdue is useful and surprisingly net hits based. If it wasn't for the availability cap, you could rock a 8 strength cyberlimb pretty easy and that's respectable for punching though sadly you'll have to make the limb bulky as well or cut something to stick a spur in it.

You might be able to make a decent Pugilist melee character. The issue is making one that isn't a one trick pony (just being good at punching dudes in face, even the Bad Enough Trog is good at different types of combat) in a world of much better ponies at the same trick (spirits and paracritters). You could do it with Martial Arts, but then everyone else would want those as well (the same goes for SURGE and somewhat for metavarients).

QUOTE (Seerow)
Why do the characters use the average stats from cyberlimbs, but not average armor? Seriously, picking up a bunch of cyberlimbs with 3+ armor and being tougher than a tank just seems cheap, and it seems weird that getting armor on a single limb gives you more effective armor than a titanium skeleton. Making the armor average out across limbs makes more sense, and makes that troll a little less ridiculous.

Edit: On a unrelated note, an earlier post was talking about some modifications resulting in you being limited to a dicepool of 20 forever. What's that all about?


The way averaging stats from cyberlimbs is done is mainly from trying to piece together the SR4A page on the subject and the example given (SR4A 333). As for armor, it's based of the FAQ that Missions refers too. In addition, it's a fairly reasonable read of the appropriate section of the book about it being cumulative with worn armor (SR4A 334). It's really bad when you do cyberhands and feet with armor 2 (armor 3 if the GM won't aggro on you for using bulky).

I guess you could say that the cyberlimb armor doesn't stack with itself (thus you buy one set of armor 3 or use a limb for nothing but armor 7 with a cybertorso), though I think that's a bit more of a search of a reading (and might have impact on other armor rules elsewhere). Also, the Trog is paying out the nose for the privilege of having good armor including cutting himself from the very handy though not crucial 3rd IP.

As for getting an armored cyberlimb is better than titanium bone lacing (technically the bone lacing gives 1 extra die for resisting damage but cyberlimbs come with so much more), I really do think bone lacing (and its brother in arms dermal plating) needs to be buffed. It's effectively the same numberwise from older editions despite the entire rules set changing around it.

The dice pools being limited forever to 20 has to do with using cyberarms of awesome and the Missions dice pool caps (20 or natural attribute + natural skill x 2 whatever is higher). Since the cyberarm of awesome route is built around low attributes offset by a comparatively inexpensive cyberarm, it's hard to a cyberarm of awesome user to have a natural attribute + natural skill that is greater than 10. Thus, you're stuck at the 20 dice pool cap. You could spend karma to raise your physical attributes high enough to break the cap, but you're getting very little for the large amount of karma you would have to spend. Also, if you were going for a high agility or whatever, you would have just bought that at creation rather than blowing money on a cyberarm of awesome.
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Seerow
post Aug 17 2011, 12:03 AM
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Thanks for the explanations

-I knew there was a dice pool cap rule, I was however unaware that it used unaugmented stat rather than augmented stat as the cap. That is interesting to know, I just always assumed it used the augmented (since most people will have at most a 5 naturally in a stat before racial mods even if they are avoiding full cyberlimb replacement, you're looking at a capped dice pool of 22 tops).

-The way I always thought cyberlimb armor worked (or at least should work) was that it averaged out, just like the cyberlimbs do (with the addition of averaging the head, where it normally wouldn't). But I guess that isn't the RAW, so doesn't matter here. But the way I figured it was with a full cyber replacement, you could get 7 bonus armor. Which is honestly a lot, it's like a whole extra armor jacket that stacks with everything else. The RAW of it is with that investment you get 35 armor, which is insane.

-Bone Lacing is actually pretty decent. If they were going to buff it the one change I would like to see is the extra damage resist dice becoming actual body (thus enabling you to wear more armor as well as granting a tiny bit of it, plus the other fringe benefits of high body, being harder to affect with some types of magic, etc). Though a lower essence cost wouldn't hurt. Honestly though I'm picking it up on my current character primarily for the unarmed strike damage boost.
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UmaroVI
post Aug 17 2011, 12:24 AM
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Armor Enhancement has a max of 4.
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post Aug 17 2011, 12:59 AM
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QUOTE (suoq @ Aug 17 2011, 12:18 AM) *
It may be just me, but my experience is that differing power levels don't matter in Shadowrun as long as all the players only play their own part.
For example, I'll point at the "high powered face" thread. The face there is NOT high powered, but it doesn't matter because he's the face. It doesn't matter if he's rolling 12 dice or 20, because he's got the highest dice pool in the bunch.

In our home campaign, my character has the same dice pool for sneaky as our sneaky, but being sneaky is HER job. I ask if she wants backup but if she says no, I'll sit on the sidelines with everyone else. Likewise, I do have some social skills (less than our face but enough to deal with things if I get caught sneaking). But being the face isn't my job.

Imbalance only appears to be an issue when some player(s) wants the spotlight all the time. When the players can share the sandbox and play together, the group doesn't need to be balanced.


Most of the time, you're right. The Sam doesn't mind so much if the Face is better at social than the Sam, and that the Hacker is better at hacking.

But in combat, that doesn't work so well. Because of three main reasons, I think:
1) Combat is often the climax of a mission.
2) In combat, your character might die if he's not good at it.
3) Combat takes a lot of OOC time, so being good at combat means your moment in the spotlight takes a lot of time.

Those are three good reasons why every character needs to be able to do meaningful stuff in combat. And it works better if a character's contributions aren't entirely overshadowed by the Sam, even though it's okay if he's better - as long as the other players feel they can do something in combat that matters.

And that requires some coordination of character power levels.
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Hida Tsuzua
post Aug 17 2011, 01:02 AM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 17 2011, 01:24 AM) *
Armor Enhancement has a max of 4.


Oops. Yeah, you'll just stick +3 armor on one limb and call it a day.

As for the "well everyone has a niche on a team and it doesn't matter everyone else sticks in that niche" thought, in missions a lot of times you really do end up with guys who are just worst than another character at the same table. It really stinks to earn your paycheck purely due to the fact pay is per PC instead of lump sum.
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Glyph
post Aug 17 2011, 02:30 AM
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It's hard to quantify character power level, because different dice pools mean different things. Some dice pools have far more potential negative modifiers, while others have far more things that can boost them (such as gymnastics and social skills). And it's a game of glass cannons. One character has 12 dice, another has 20 dice, but they might be equally able to kill each other in one round. And it's a tactical game. One character has 20 dice, but the character with 12 dice snipes him from a rooftop. Also, it's hard to quantify how "powerful" it is to be good at many different things, as opposed to being very good at one or two things (assuming the generalist still has enough dice to succeed, rather than being spread too thin).

I think its less important to balance every character, than it is to have a group that can mesh together, and that has a plausible reason to work together. And just like the powergamers might need to turn it down a notch or two to let the other characters do something, the roleplayers need to accept that if they want a special little snowflake instead of an asskicker, they will be in a supporting role more often than not.
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Mayhem_2006
post Aug 17 2011, 06:57 AM
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QUOTE (Glyph @ Aug 17 2011, 03:30 AM) *
I think its less important to balance every character, than it is to have a group that can mesh together, and that has a plausible reason to work together. And just like the powergamers might need to turn it down a notch or two to let the other characters do something, the roleplayers need to accept that if they want a special little snowflake instead of an asskicker, they will be in a supporting role more often than not.


Very much THIS, AKA QFT.

It doesn't matter if one character has a higher dicepool than another, UNLESS the 2nd character is supposed to be a specialist in that area and now his specialism is getting all stomped over and making the character redundant. That's not a lot of fun for the player, and this is supposed to be a game about fun.

A group that can work together and in which everybody gets a chance to shine in their area of expertise makes it much easier for everyone to have fun. I haven't GM'd Shadowrun but generally my character creation policy for any game in which I want the PCs to act as a team is to get them to character create as a team, rather than as individuals, to make sure all the usual bases are covered, that nobody ends up being totally overshadowed by everyone else, and so the experienced players who know how to squeeze every last dice into a pool can help out the novices so that everybody ends up with an equally effective character.

As I stated elsewhere, the purpose of the game is entertainment. Create and play your character to entertain the other people in your group, not yourself. Then, if everybody at the table does the same thing, you get back 5 times the entertainment that you put in.

Creating and playing a character that entertains only you at the expense of the fun of any of the other players? You might as well go play a solo CRPG, buddy, and you are not welcome at my table.
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Cain
post Aug 17 2011, 10:42 AM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 16 2011, 01:34 PM) *
Well the nature of point buy systems is balance of opportunity not outcome. The trick is to try to get everyone on the same page of where you want the outcome. I think most of the current SR4.5 sample characters are decent in the outcome scale of where I would like the PCs to start. Some are on the weak side but would work great in a street campaign. Can people make a "better" street samurai than the sample given, sure. But you don't need the samples to be one of the best things possible to build, in fact I think you don't want them to be. You want them to be pretty good at what they are supposed to do, which most of the samples pull off fine.

Yeah, but then we have a similar problem to random rolls. But instead of being lucky with attribute rolls, you have the issue of being good at system mastery. It's entirely possible to have a samurai who can out-Face the Face, especially the one in the SR4.5 BBB.
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squee_nabob
post Aug 17 2011, 02:03 PM
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The problem with using specializations to balance PCs is sitting down at a Con with several people using sample characters, and several people using self-made characters. At Origins I brought a CHA TM to a table with 6 other players, including 3 using premades. I was…

A better face than the face Premade
A better fighter than the gun adept
A better hacker than the hacker (to be expected)
And sneakier than the Covert Ops specialist

Admittedly I had some karma and money under by belt, but the fact that several of the sample characters were purely outclassed could have been a problem (I was nice enough to step aside and pretend I wasn’t better than them at their jobs). I have no problem with making the default sample characters better, so new players are an asset to the table.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Aug 17 2011, 06:55 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 17 2011, 06:42 AM) *
Yeah, but then we have a similar problem to random rolls. But instead of being lucky with attribute rolls, you have the issue of being good at system mastery. It's entirely possible to have a samurai who can out-Face the Face, especially the one in the SR4.5 BBB.



Yup. Every system has its flaws. The more flexible the point buy the more you can customize your character but also the more it rewards system mastery.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 17 2011, 07:40 PM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 17 2011, 12:55 PM) *
Yup. Every system has its flaws. The more flexible the point buy the more you can customize your character but also the more it rewards system mastery.


Hard to avoid that...
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UmaroVI
post Aug 18 2011, 12:29 AM
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Quick note: the Transhuman Mystic had Genetic Heritage and Augmentation Addict; I had missed that both were banned in Missions. Fixed this, updated the sheet as v1.1 with a changelog. The old version still exists, of course.
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Cain
post Aug 18 2011, 05:43 AM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Aug 17 2011, 10:55 AM) *
Yup. Every system has its flaws. The more flexible the point buy the more you can customize your character but also the more it rewards system mastery.

It can be beaten, though. One way is to balance point costs, so different options of the same power levels cost the same amount of points. SR4.5's point costs are hideously unbalanced, to the point where certain options are just a lot better than others.

For example, Uncouth. Uncouth gives you 20 BP, and effectively locks you out of 6 skills. I've never seen anyone take Uncouth, and you know why? Because you can take 4 Incompetences in the same social skill groups, and get just as much return.
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Glyph
post Aug 18 2011, 07:13 AM
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Uncouth is one of the "trap" options in the rules, which does not actually create an uncouth character. I think of uncouth, and I think of someone who is abrasive, stubborn, and lacking in social graces. But the way the social skill rules work is that you use those skills to resist those same skills. So an uncouth character can't resist intimidation, follows orders blindly, etc.

Incompetent is not much of an improvement, though. You are in the same situation - you are treated as unaware in those social skills, and you can't even default on them. Sure, it's only four skills, not six, but on the other hand, you have four points of notoriety.

I have never liked how incompetent has been implemented, either. Being treated as unaware in a skill, but completely unaffected in other, similar skills leads to weird things - like someone who can be a crack shot with a pistol, but who will stare in blank incomprehension if someone hands him a shotgun.
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Elfenlied
post Aug 18 2011, 10:08 AM
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I always disliked that Uncouth included Intimidate. Just feels wrong, IMO.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 18 2011, 12:54 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 17 2011, 10:43 PM) *
It can be beaten, though. One way is to balance point costs, so different options of the same power levels cost the same amount of points. SR4.5's point costs are hideously unbalanced, to the point where certain options are just a lot better than others.

For example, Uncouth. Uncouth gives you 20 BP, and effectively locks you out of 6 skills. I've never seen anyone take Uncouth, and you know why? Because you can take 4 Incompetences in the same social skill groups, and get just as much return.


I have taken uncouth a time or two. It is sometimes very appropriate to do so. Also, Uncoutth does not eliminate the skills, it just makes them cost twice as much (which is not the same thing), while Incompetant means you cannot buy the skill at all unless you remove the incompetant NQ. Very different effects in the end, and NOT "just as much return" as you indicate.
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UmaroVI
post Aug 18 2011, 02:56 PM
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So aside from variants of "I don't like this in the first place," are there any general requests for character fitting a certain type or criterion? I've seen a few people who would like more humans so far.
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Blitz66
post Aug 18 2011, 07:44 PM
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I'm among those who would like to see more humans. Though, in all likelihood, I could convert some from the builds provided for my own use, instead of asking you to do it. I'm a fan of the Transhuman Mystic, as well as other examples of Awakened/augmented builds, but prefer human characters.

So, thanks for what you've provided, and if you want to give us more options yet... cheers!
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UmaroVI
post Aug 18 2011, 09:56 PM
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Not that you need my permission, but feel free to tinker when you use stuff yourself; part of the goal is to have examples of how to build various character types.

On metatype changes: both the Transhuman Mystic and the Burnout Combat Mage can easily convert to human; neither of them really need strength, and the +1 Willpower, while nice, isn't vital. In general, any of the orks can go human, but they would either need to dump Strength or free up some points. The elves don't really want to go human; all of them really do care about the extra bit of Agility, Charisma, or both. You could make human versions of the Combat Hacker and Bad Enough Trog work, but those would take some work because trolls are pretty different from humans.
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Cain
post Aug 18 2011, 10:12 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 18 2011, 04:54 AM) *
I have taken uncouth a time or two. It is sometimes very appropriate to do so. Also, Uncoutth does not eliminate the skills, it just makes them cost twice as much (which is not the same thing), while Incompetant means you cannot buy the skill at all unless you remove the incompetant NQ. Very different effects in the end, and NOT "just as much return" as you indicate.

Odds are, those skills are ones you wouldn't want to take in the first place, so that aspect of Uncouth isn't a big deal.

But let's look at it for a second. Let's say you want to take an Uncouth character to Intimidate 3. That costs him 24 BP, or assuming he started at 0, 28 karma. If he had bought Incompetent: Intimidate, he would need to spend 26 karma: 10 to buy off the flaw, and 16 to raise it to 3. So, it's *still* cheaper to buy Incompetent rather than to buy Uncouth. It's not "just as much return", it's *more* return.
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mmmkay
post Aug 19 2011, 12:44 AM
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I really liked the idea of building high power level, but simple/not reliant on non-missions viable or unclear rules, characters. I was going to ask you to attempt to build a more combat viable adept than the negotiator, but the negotiator is pretty much not cheaply improvable in combat (could go up to 12 agi in the right arm but would require restricted gear, which sucks for something that can be cheaply bought later). At the very least I can say that I have not been able to come up with a very good combat adept and was wondering if you could think of one. Basically I like adepts and a decent combat focused one or a decently sneaky one that can bypass security (I'd probably try to use Mind-over-Matter) and all that seems good. Anyways more adepts would be nice, since they are very tough to make at a high power level.

Also a couple questions. All but one of the excluded options makes sense to me. Why is Iron Will an excluded option? Also somewhere you were posting the powers/spells/gear that you were ignoring because they had unclear meanings, but other than listing heightened concentration you did not mention other unclear powers/spells/gears. What are some other ones you aren't using?
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mmmkay
post Aug 19 2011, 12:44 AM
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Whoops, apparently double clicking too much causes double posts. Sorry.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 19 2011, 12:58 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 18 2011, 03:12 PM) *
Odds are, those skills are ones you wouldn't want to take in the first place, so that aspect of Uncouth isn't a big deal.

But let's look at it for a second. Let's say you want to take an Uncouth character to Intimidate 3. That costs him 24 BP, or assuming he started at 0, 28 karma. If he had bought Incompetent: Intimidate, he would need to spend 26 karma: 10 to buy off the flaw, and 16 to raise it to 3. So, it's *still* cheaper to buy Incompetent rather than to buy Uncouth. It's not "just as much return", it's *more* return.


Except that I do not build characters based upon how the "Numbers" play out. If I take an Incompetant Flaw, I do not buy it off when it becomes inconvenient.
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post Aug 19 2011, 01:12 AM
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So the character is skilled but incompetent? In any event, your character is becoming less incompetent. The only difference IS the numbers game.
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Cain
post Aug 19 2011, 01:48 AM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Aug 18 2011, 04:58 PM) *
Except that I do not build characters based upon how the "Numbers" play out. If I take an Incompetant Flaw, I do not buy it off when it becomes inconvenient.

If you want to gimp your characters for "roleplay" reasons, that's your choice. Just don't go around thinking that makes you better than the rest of us. This is a personal pet peeve of mine: you don't have to make a character weak in order for it to be fun to play. I think those who are stuck in that mindset of their own superiority rally, really need to learn that games are about fun, not sticking your nose in the air at every other playstyle.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 19 2011, 01:59 AM
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QUOTE (Blitz66 @ Aug 18 2011, 06:12 PM) *
So the character is skilled but incompetent? In any event, your character is becoming less incompetent. The only difference IS the numbers game.


I don't build characters that way.
But then, I do not have characters with Dice pools at 20+ either. I am happy with the guidelines as set forth in the book, so 12-14 Dice Primary to start with. Of course, the characters get better as time goes on, but I rarely eliminate the Character Flaws (read negative Qualities) that I have, unless it makes sense to do so. They are a part of the character, after all. You can have a thousand Karma, be skilled out the ass, and still not be good at something. That is life.

If I take an Incompetant Quality for a skill, I take one that makes sense for the character. Why would I want to buy that off? If it is going to prove heavily inconvenient (and I might possibly want to purchase the skill in the future, then I probably won't take an incompetancy in that skill. Then again, I rarely take them anyways. I have two characters (out of about 70) that have it. Incompetant: First Aid (Cyberlogicain) and Incompetant: Gymnastics (Technomancer) are the only two that have an incompetancy, and they have them because of background issues. I see no reason to buy them off. Some may call that sub-optimal. I call it character. *shrug*
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UmaroVI
post Aug 19 2011, 02:00 AM
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QUOTE (mmmkay @ Aug 18 2011, 07:44 PM) *
I really liked the idea of building high power level, but simple/not reliant on non-missions viable or unclear rules, characters. I was going to ask you to attempt to build a more combat viable adept than the negotiator, but the negotiator is pretty much not cheaply improvable in combat (could go up to 12 agi in the right arm but would require restricted gear, which sucks for something that can be cheaply bought later). At the very least I can say that I have not been able to come up with a very good combat adept and was wondering if you could think of one. Basically I like adepts and a decent combat focused one or a decently sneaky one that can bypass security (I'd probably try to use Mind-over-Matter) and all that seems good. Anyways more adepts would be nice, since they are very tough to make at a high power level.

Also a couple questions. All but one of the excluded options makes sense to me. Why is Iron Will an excluded option? Also somewhere you were posting the powers/spells/gear that you were ignoring because they had unclear meanings, but other than listing heightened concentration you did not mention other unclear powers/spells/gears. What are some other ones you aren't using?

Adepts: I'll see about another adept or two.

Iron Will is kind of unclear on how it works and super broken. I'll see if I can explain. EDIT: It just occured to me that you might have thought I meant the Adept power "Iron Will." I mean the exosuit from Attitude.

Okay, so it is an exoskeleton that you put on. You treat it like a vehicle... for upgrades. But what about for everything else? It says it fixes your strength at 8, and reduces your agility by 1, which implies that you should move around in it normally - so, like, you can pick up a pistol, and shoot it with Agility+Pistols (rather than something wacky like Agility+Gunnery). What if you mod it to allow rigging (which you can do, because you treat it like a vehicle for upgrades). Can you remote control rig it? Can you jump into it? If you RC rig it, can you shoot people with Command+Pistols? Command+Gunnery? As you can see, it raises a whole mess of rules questions.

Let's assume we go with what I am 90% sure is RAI - you get into it, you work normally except Strength = 8, Agility goes down by 1, the rolls you make for stuff don't change, and you just don't or are not allowed to jump into it or command rig it. Now we get to the broken part - it has 6 body and 4 armor. But you can upgrade it like a vehicle, meaning you can get it up to 12 armor, or 10 if you want it concealed. And you can wear other, normal armor, because it isn't armor and doesn't encumber. Now you can run around in it, with a mere -1 Agility penalty in return for being in an armored vehicle, which makes you quite hard to hurt. And you might well be a mage who doesn't care much about that -1 agility, and is getting a hefty chunk of armor out of this. For the price of about 4000Y. On what should be an antiquated curiosity, not a superb warmachine. Then you mod it with Personal Armor 10, which adds another 10 armor to any attacks directed at you. Oh, and with Body 6, you can put weapon mounts on it.

Needless to say, this is stupid and no GM in their right mind is going to let it fly; if you show up at a missions table with it, I'd expect an orbital cow to be dropped on your character. It's in many ways better than MilSpec armor at the job MilSpec armor is supposed to do (of course, you can ALSO wear milspec armor under it....), it's cheap and 95% of characters would benefit from using it, and the rules are a colossal mess of inclarity.

A few other examples of stuff that I didn't use because it is unclear:
1) the Swap echo. I have no clue how this works. I don't know what it is supposed to do, I don't know what it says it does, and I sure don't know how Catalyst managed to errata it from something that I couldn't make heads or tails of to something that I STILL can't make heads or tails of.

2) If you have a cyberhand, and you hold a one-handed weapon in it and fire it, do you use the hand's agility score? What if it's a forearm? (If it is a full arm, the answer is explicitly yes).

3) Can you Biowire the skillsofts of a Tutor Sprite?

4) What exactly is "armor clothing" in the context of the "Armor" mod in Attitude? Does it include stuff like the armored clothing sets in Arsenal?

5) What counts as "unarmed combat" for Critical Strike? Does it mean "unarmed" as in without weapons, or "Unarmed Combat" as in the skill? Same for Killing Hands and Elemental Strike.

There's probably a bunch more I've forgotten. But that should give you an idea of the sort of stuff I mean. I'm sure some of these seem like they have an "obvious" answer but I've seen arguments about all of them.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Aug 19 2011, 02:08 AM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Aug 18 2011, 06:48 PM) *
If you want to gimp your characters for "roleplay" reasons, that's your choice. Just don't go around thinking that makes you better than the rest of us. This is a personal pet peeve of mine: you don't have to make a character weak in order for it to be fun to play. I think those who are stuck in that mindset of their own superiority rally, really need to learn that games are about fun, not sticking your nose in the air at every other playstyle.


And there you go again. Berating other's choices and insulting them. Doesn't that ever get old Cain? Your atttitude is also a personal pet peeve of mine. We have a great deal of fun at our table. How dare you insinuate otherwise. And I never once said it made me better than others. That is all on you. Feeling a bit inferior are you?

One man's week character is another man's Epic fun character. I think that you do have an issue with characters that are not over the top amazing. It can be done, to be sure, and there are a few published products that directly address that. But you seem to have issues with anyone who intentionally plays their character to the levels (Implied or otherwise) of the books. Why is that?
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Blitz66
post Aug 19 2011, 02:20 AM
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Actually, TJ, he wasn't criticizing your choices, but your attitude. Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but the way I read your "numbers" post, you were pretty condescending. If you don't ever intend to raise a skill that you took a flaw for, that's fine, but why are you criticizing how others choose to develop their characters? Growing out of incompetence is at least as valid a choice as paying extra.
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post Aug 19 2011, 02:54 AM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Aug 18 2011, 07:00 PM) *
Adepts: I'll see about another adept or two.


Yay!

QUOTE
Iron Will is kind of unclear on how it works and super broken. I'll see if I can explain. EDIT: It just occured to me that you might have thought I meant the Adept power "Iron Will." I mean the exosuit from Attitude.


I was wondering why the adept power "iron will" was broken. Haha. Jeez the exosuit should be errata'd to iron bill or something. Also the combat sense adept power and combat sense spell have the same name, but does that mean they stack?

QUOTE
2) If you have a cyberhand, and you hold a one-handed weapon in it and fire it, do you use the hand's agility score? What if it's a forearm? (If it is a full arm, the answer is explicitly yes).


I see your point here, although shooting a gun with an agile hand seems nonsensical (still by what does RAW say is the real question).

QUOTE
4) What exactly is "armor clothing" in the context of the "Armor" mod in Attitude? Does it include stuff like the armored clothing sets in Arsenal?


Not sure how official this is, but Hardy answers Kerenshara

QUOTE
5) What counts as "unarmed combat" for Critical Strike? Does it mean "unarmed" as in without weapons, or "Unarmed Combat" as in the skill? Same for Killing Hands and Elemental Strike.


I've always wondered this. Magic fingers, hardliner gloves, and I would really like to know the answer to this. There are a million threads on this and no one has come to a consensus it seems.
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