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Seriously Mike
post Sep 21 2011, 06:13 PM
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OK, so I put together another character, this time more buffed up than the slightly underpowered Adept.

Street Name: Kestrel
Name: Olga Voronina
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Human Female Age 28
Height 5'8" Weight 137 lbs
Composure: 5
Judge Intentions: 6
Lift/Carry: 8 (60 kg/40 kg)
Memory: 6
Nuyen: 1380

Description
Former VDV (Russian airborne troops) Sergeant, combat character focused on assault weapons and close combat.

Attributes
[ Spoiler ]


Active Skills
[ Spoiler ]


Knowledge Skills
[ Spoiler ]


Qualities
[ Spoiler ]


Gear
[ Spoiler ]


Background
Sergeant Olga Semyonovna Voronina of the 7th Guards Airborne Division, Russian Army, killed in a friendly fire incident near Cherik-Martan in Caucasus along with her squad after going AWOL. That's the official version. Unofficially, her squad was used as a shadowrunner team on Saeder-Krupp payroll by her CO, Cpt. Ivan Butov. However, Butov was deemed "too greedy" by S-K, who decided to get rid of him and his "black-ops shadowteam". The off-the-books mission Voronina's squad was sent to turned out to be a deathtrap engineered with the help of corrupt higher-ranking officers who ordered a missile strike on the Cherik-Martan village, claimed by "intelligence reports" to be a "terrorist hideout".
Out of ten soldiers and over seventy SINless villagers, Voronina was the sole survivor - heavily burned, blinded and with both arms damaged beyond repair. Evo, S-K's opponent in the proxy war over the area, managed to send their scouts first, retrieve the crippled sergeant and make it look like she perished as well. Now, Evo had a very pissed off soldier with a grudge owe them a huge favor and Olga had the capability for revenge...

Notes:
I shifted some points here and there: she's still the designated shootist (14 dice on her SMG and 11 on any else, 12 on her pistol and 9 on any else), but with no Longarms or Gunnery expertise now. However, I upped her Blades skill by one, so if someone's stupid enough to go mano a mano with her it's 12 dice on attack and 9 on defense - however, I'm considering moving that point from Blades to Dodge, as it's more versatile (well, she only needs the blades in situations where she's conveniently unarmed, to cut up the first armed schmuck that comes close and loot his toys). I also gave her two pretty useful soldier skills, Navigation and Survival.
Having two fake SINs at once, not to mention two different commlinks, seems to be all the rage - so is it sensible to use another BP to get those, as well as other gear?

Also, feel free to post your character builds for advice. You never know what "hidden depths" others can find in them. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Whipstitch
post Sep 21 2011, 06:44 PM
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The thing with fire is that with SR4 tech there's not much reason for fire to really be all that common in most neighborhoods except as AR iconography. Squatters eat nutrisoy and whatever they can trade for in the Barrens while people with low lifestyles are thankful if they have an autocook with a full suite of flavor faucets. Personally, my new li'l apartment has an electric range and none of my friends are smokers, so it's probably been weeks since I've seen a flame. Obviously the frequency can vary, but I can understand how GM might go either way in an urban setting depending on how dependent they think squatters and street people are on fire for warmth out in the worst parts of the sprawl.
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Bigity
post Sep 21 2011, 06:48 PM
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What, your Barrens doesn't have squatters standing around a barrel fire with fingerless gloves drinking bad hooch out of a container in a paper bag?

The gangers don't routinely toss firebombs around for fun and retribution or just as a reminder they are tough?



Still..I'm not sure an open flame would be a common occurrence.
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Whipstitch
post Sep 21 2011, 06:52 PM
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In my games people who can't manage a squatter lifestyle usually don't live very long.
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AppliedCheese
post Sep 21 2011, 06:55 PM
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Nitpickery to consider background wise:

1x squad of VDV would have to be exceptionally hand picked for a Russian Bn/Regt commander to be its CO. Usually there would be a platoon leader, then a company commander, THEN the old man. Unless your very special and on detached duty of sorts.

Also, low CHA is fine...Russian NCOs are usually less leader, more intermediary follower, than western equivalents. Of course, in a hand picked, cream of the VDV, use doff the books squad...who knows...
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Adarael
post Sep 21 2011, 07:05 PM
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QUOTE (Bigity @ Sep 21 2011, 11:48 AM) *
What, your Barrens doesn't have squatters standing around a barrel fire with fingerless gloves drinking bad hooch out of a container in a paper bag?

The gangers don't routinely toss firebombs around for fun and retribution or just as a reminder they are tough?



Still..I'm not sure an open flame would be a common occurrence.


Maybe other people's characters don't associate with the Halloweeners or Red Hot Nukes as often as mine do, but... yeah. That seems odd.
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Whipstitch
post Sep 21 2011, 07:18 PM
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I second that average charisma and low skill for a NCO isn't really a big deal. While the military does emphasize leadership skills they also put an awful lot of effort into creating an environment and hierarchy that allows people to lead effectively; being on friendly terms with a lower ranking soldier in the same unit can net you 3 or 4 extra Leadership dice under the SR4 system rather easily. So a sergeant who knows their job well enough to avoid giving stupid orders and has a good team behind them doesn't really need to be Miss Congeniality in their normal course of duty.
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 21 2011, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (AppliedCheese @ Sep 21 2011, 08:55 PM) *
1x squad of VDV would have to be exceptionally hand picked for a Russian Bn/Regt commander to be its CO. Usually there would be a platoon leader, then a company commander, THEN the old man. Unless your very special and on detached duty of sorts.

Great, thanks for doing the research for me (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) . The COs rank was pretty much a placeholder, really. Actually some lower-ranking officer would be more likely to be enough of a slimeball to pull something like this on his men. That and the threat of higher-ups finding out about his "jobs on the side" would be more likely too.
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Manunancy
post Sep 21 2011, 08:12 PM
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QUOTE (AppliedCheese @ Sep 21 2011, 08:55 PM) *
1x squad of VDV would have to be exceptionally hand picked for a Russian Bn/Regt commander to be its CO. Usually there would be a platoon leader, then a company commander, THEN the old man. Unless your very special and on detached duty of sorts.


He's probably the guy who send them on errands, not their direct commander. Add one or two level of flunkies (who can have some nice accidents) and it should do the trick. Or maybe she thinks the commander was the one calling the shots while in reality it was some intermediary faking his authorizations - and maybe even one not in the chain of command. Who then can safely howl with the wolves and point his fingers at the commander to divert the investigations away from him.
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 21 2011, 10:15 PM
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QUOTE (Manunancy @ Sep 21 2011, 10:12 PM) *
He's probably the guy who send them on errands, not their direct commander. Add one or two level of flunkies (who can have some nice accidents) and it should do the trick. Or maybe she thinks the commander was the one calling the shots while in reality it was some intermediary faking his authorizations - and maybe even one not in the chain of command. Who then can safely howl with the wolves and point his fingers at the commander to divert the investigations away from him.
It's easier to cover it up when you don't have any flunkies between you and the team. Also, less people to split the payola between. So scaling the bastard down to platoon commander makes sense: having 30 to 50 guys at his disposal, low enough that the corporation can afford his "services", but ready to bail out as soon as he feels heat under his ass. That even works with the alternate version of the background, where it's S-K who order the airstrike higher up, to break the corrupt bastard's career. The grunts were just a collateral. How did that one go, "never deal with a dragon"?
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Stingray
post Sep 22 2011, 04:42 AM
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..Availibilty of Fake Sin lvl 5 is over 12, Fake Sin lvl 4 is highest what u can get in char.gen.. (w/o Restricted gear-Quality)
non-modified armor??
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Adarael
post Sep 22 2011, 05:23 AM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Sep 21 2011, 11:13 AM) *
OK, so I put together another character, this time more buffed up than the slightly underpowered Adept.

Name: Olga Voronina
AKA: Ekaterina Savchenko, Kestrel
...


I can't believe it took me this long to realize this, but... I think somebody's been playing some Splinter Cell: Conviction.

And maybe some Metal Gear Solid 2, though that's a longer shot.
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 22 2011, 06:36 AM
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QUOTE (Adarael @ Sep 22 2011, 07:23 AM) *
I can't believe it took me this long to realize this, but... I think somebody's been playing some Splinter Cell: Conviction.

And maybe some Metal Gear Solid 2, though that's a longer shot.

I can't believe it took you this long NOT to realize this, but... this list is longer. And you missed a couple of very obvious references. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
QUOTE (Stingray @ Sep 22 2011, 06:42 AM) *
..Availibilty of Fake Sin lvl 5 is over 12, Fake Sin lvl 4 is highest what u can get in char.gen.. (w/o Restricted gear-Quality)
non-modified armor??
Big deal, dial the SIN level down a bit and save some money. As for "non-modified armor", what do you have in mind? I didn't really look at the new armor options in Arsenal, really. However, she cranks out 12/11 Armor in her street clothing, 11/9 when she drops the coat and 15/13 when she dons the "mission jacket". Either that or Armor calculation in Chummer is messed up (I can't believe she has pools this high). Also, looking at the cost of all those clothes... I think I shouldn't have spent that much on them. Oh well, the downsides of playing a woman... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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AppliedCheese
post Sep 22 2011, 11:20 AM
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Company commander would be about right. Its the position in the Russian (and most western) armies where real book keeping starts, but low enough to simply tell 3rd platoon to break off a squad without it looking horribly suspicious. So CPT so and so...
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 22 2011, 11:34 AM
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QUOTE (AppliedCheese @ Sep 22 2011, 01:20 PM) *
So CPT so and so...
Captain Kizhe... (falls under the desk laughing, must be a funny day today)
But yeah, that's what I had in mind. Also, the suggestion of changing the fake SIN to level 4 is a good idea, especially if the saved money can be used to fit the "mission jacket" with a Nonconductivity mod.
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Stingray
post Sep 22 2011, 01:33 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Sep 22 2011, 02:34 PM) *
Captain Kizhe... (falls under the desk laughing, must be a funny day today)
But yeah, that's what I had in mind. Also, the suggestion of changing the fake SIN to level 4 is a good idea, especially if the saved money can be used to fit the "mission jacket" with a Nonconductivity mod.

..one way to save precious Y, inststead Berwic suit, buy Actioneer Business Clothes...
..if playing RAW Max armor= 2x Body, choices of decent Armor are pretty slim..(especially for body 3)
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 22 2011, 02:15 PM
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QUOTE (Stingray @ Sep 22 2011, 03:33 PM) *
..one way to save precious Y, inststead Berwic suit, buy Actioneer Business Clothes...
..if playing RAW Max armor= 2x Body, choices of decent Armor are pretty slim..(especially for body 3)
Yeah, Actioneer suit is a good idea, not as ostentatious but still protective enough. Also, I just found out Chummer indeed derped out and stupidly treated Cyberarms armor as stackable all-body armor (that also happens to stack with itself). Hence the completely insane dice pools. That'd mean I have only 9/7 protection in the Mission Jacket.
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Stingray
post Sep 22 2011, 02:28 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Sep 22 2011, 05:15 PM) *
Yeah, Actioneer suit is a good idea, not as ostentatious but still protective enough. Also, I just found out Chummer indeed derped out and stupidly treated Cyberarms armor as stackable all-body armor (that also happens to stack with itself). Hence the completely insane dice pools. That'd mean I have only 9/7 protection in the Mission Jacket.

....hmm...buying Industrious Line Coverall (5/4), adding Helmet (1/2) = 6/6 + armor from Cyberhands = 9/9...
or Industrious Line Winterized Coverall (6/5) (it already have lvl 2 Fire resistance,Insulation, and Chemical protection) adding Forearm/shin-guards (0/1) makes
also 6/6..

Your nat. Str is 3, W/ str enc. from hands makes it 6, right??
people makes same damage with str 5 or str 6 in unarmed combat , so dropping it to 2 (bringing total to 5), and raising Body stat. with it gives more choices of armor..
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 22 2011, 03:50 PM
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QUOTE (Stingray @ Sep 22 2011, 04:28 PM) *
Your nat. Str is 3, W/ str enc. from hands makes it 6, right??
people makes same damage with str 5 or str 6 in unarmed combat , so dropping it to 2 (bringing total to 5), and raising Body stat. with it gives more choices of armor..
Does Body enhancement from cybernetic limbs increase the average value for character? Because if it does (Chummer gives an increased value in parentheses, like it does with Wired Reflexes for Reaction, but I'm not sure if it's correct), I have effective Body stat of 4, which means that Armor Jacket (which I can keep) + PPP Vitals Protector + Cyberarm Armor give me a whopping 12/10 (8/6 +1 +3).
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Stingray
post Sep 22 2011, 04:33 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Sep 22 2011, 06:50 PM) *
Does Body enhancement from cybernetic limbs increase the average value for character? Because if it does (Chummer gives an increased value in parentheses, like it does with Wired Reflexes for Reaction, but I'm not sure if it's correct), I have effective Body stat of 4, which means that Armor Jacket (which I can keep) + PPP Vitals Protector + Cyberarm Armor give me a whopping 12/10 (8/6 +1 +3).

+3 str bonus do increase stat,yes..
but armor question..
addind vitals protection to armor jacket raise it 9/7 and so giving agility and reaction penalties..
those c-hands armor gives extrra dices to resist damage (from Bod. enc) ..
better option (IMOO)
Industrious Line coverall (5/4) +
Form Fitting Body Armor (6/2) (considering as 3/1,when conting penalties) +
PPP Helmet (0/2) +
Shin Guards (0/1)
11/9 (considering as 8/8 when counting penalties)
+ 3 from c-hands.. 14/12..
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 23 2011, 07:54 AM
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QUOTE (Stingray @ Sep 22 2011, 06:33 PM) *
+3 str bonus do increase stat,yes..
but armor question..
addind vitals protection to armor jacket raise it 9/7 and so giving agility and reaction penalties..
those c-hands armor gives extrra dices to resist damage (from Bod. enc) ..
better option (IMOO)
Industrious Line coverall (5/4) +
Form Fitting Body Armor (6/2) (considering as 3/1,when conting penalties) +
PPP Helmet (0/2) +
Shin Guards (0/1)
11/9 (considering as 8/8 when counting penalties)
+ 3 from c-hands.. 14/12..

Nice, but too much crunch and not enough fluff. When people say "Industrious Line coverall", I have a subconscious desire to add a latex clown mask to it, for that "Hollywood bank heist" look.
I have a different idea, a gear pack that fits in a go-bag easily and can be afforded by a starting character short on points: Armor Jacket (8/6), PPP shin guards (0/1) and c-arms. 11/10, but easier to put on and take off (anyway, 15 dice is a pool fit for soaking assault cannon shots... >_>). Or an "I-Don't-Fuck-Around" kit I'd feel comfortable in:
FFBA fitted with Biomonitor and Nonconductivity 6 (6/2 - I hope that cutting the sleeves off doesn't decrease the armor values (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) )
Ares Globetrotter Camo Vest (3/3) with Gel Packs (1/1) and Smart Pouches
PPP Vitals Protector (1/1)
PPP Leg Casings (0/1) (maybe with a QD holster)
PPP Shin Guards (0/1)
That'll be... 11/9, 14/12 with c-arms added in. Leg Casings and Shin Guards can be replaced with a PPP bucket, er, helmet, Vitals Protector and Leg Casings can be replaced with a milspec bucket.

Also, I think I need another license, this time for cyberware. Folks with reflex enhancers are directly dangerous to The Man. The spurs, well, they can be hidden in a couple different ways. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Whipstitch
post Sep 23 2011, 11:36 PM
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Honestly, fluff wise I think it's a wash. In urban environments wearing a camo vest can stick out as easily as coveralls. In either case it's probably an advantage to cover up a bit with a light unarmored jacket.
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 24 2011, 10:17 PM
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QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Sep 24 2011, 01:36 AM) *
Honestly, fluff wise I think it's a wash. In urban environments wearing a camo vest can stick out as easily as coveralls. In either case it's probably an advantage to cover up a bit with a light unarmored jacket.

Ah, my other hobby shows up here. I kinda took for granted that those camo vests, apart from your typical woodland/desert/urban camo will also be available in solid colors like olive, tan or black. The same thing, just without camouflage bonus.
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Whipstitch
post Sep 25 2011, 12:22 AM
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I'd allow it as a GM, but well, when you said camo I thought about camo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Anyway, shadowrun fashion is supposedly pretty out there anyway. Really, the big distinction is often upscale dress clothes/namebrand casual vs. everything else.
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HunterHerne
post Sep 25 2011, 12:45 AM
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QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Sep 24 2011, 08:22 PM) *
I'd allow it as a GM, but well, when you said camo I thought about camo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Anyway, shadowrun fashion is supposedly pretty out there anyway. Really, the big distinction is often upscale dress clothes/namebrand casual vs. everything else.


Depends which in-universe characters you ask. Seems Dev//grrl might have something to say on that. Whether she should or not might be a different story.
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Whipstitch
post Sep 25 2011, 01:56 AM
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Yeah, I have a strict "Those books never happened" policy re: Attitude and War.
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 25 2011, 10:22 AM
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QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Sep 25 2011, 02:22 AM) *
I'd allow it as a GM, but well, when you said camo I thought about camo. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Anyway, shadowrun fashion is supposedly pretty out there anyway. Really, the big distinction is often upscale dress clothes/namebrand casual vs. everything else.

Oh, night urban camo (TacTiger, SDU) works fine in nighttime conditions everywhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Also, regarding clothes and fashion: it'd be indeed more impressive if my character could just walk in to a meeting in a classical European Berwick suit (checked - normal jacket gives the full set 0/1 armor more than Actioneer clothes) and an overly heavy greatcoat thrown over her shoulders. +5 street cred outta nowhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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ZeroPoint
post Sep 25 2011, 07:59 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Sep 25 2011, 06:22 AM) *
Oh, night urban camo (TacTiger, SDU) works fine in nighttime conditions everywhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
Also, regarding clothes and fashion: it'd be indeed more impressive if my character could just walk in to a meeting in a classical European Berwick suit (checked - normal jacket gives the full set 0/1 armor more than Actioneer clothes) and an overly heavy greatcoat thrown over her shoulders. +5 street cred outta nowhere. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Style over substance any day of the weak (except teusdays) in my book.

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HunterHerne
post Sep 25 2011, 08:13 PM
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QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Sep 24 2011, 09:56 PM) *
Yeah, I have a strict "Those books never happened" policy re: Attitude and War.



I don't know. They are a mess, but they have some interesting things. I just choose to take it all with a grain of salt before allowing/using it.
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 26 2011, 11:58 AM
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QUOTE (ZeroPoint @ Sep 25 2011, 09:59 PM) *
Style over substance any day of the weak (except teusdays) in my book.

Hmm, I think I'll replace the Actioneer set with a Mortimer Berwick set, use one or two points reserved for Contacts (two 2/3 Contacts should suffice, one better and one worse too) and build that armor set with FFBA. FFBA plus full Berwick is 11/6 with no encumbrance penalties, 14/9 with c-arms - just right for those meetings where you expect trouble (hmmm, maybe a pair of reinforced sapogi to up the armor to 14/10? You can hide shin guards easily in those!). That and Olga is usually all buttoned up to cover the burn scars.

Hell, and to think I wanted to use her only as a contact. Now I want to play her even more than my physad. Unless I manage to make my next character even more of a beast (but riggers are more, uh, "quadratic", they start weaker but grow in power faster).
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Kirk
post Sep 26 2011, 01:35 PM
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QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Sep 24 2011, 09:56 PM) *
Yeah, I have a strict "Those books never happened" policy re: Attitude and War.

I'll take either before Spy Games.
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HunterHerne
post Sep 27 2011, 02:11 AM
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QUOTE (Kirk @ Sep 26 2011, 09:35 AM) *
I'll take either before Spy Games.


Haven't gotten started on that one yet. Though I likely should, since y Phys Ad. player is interested in a few things...
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 27 2011, 07:50 AM
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I tweaked the character stats a bit, see the first post.

Also, a general character creation question: why the hell a lot of builds use more guns than a character can carry? For example, this archetype: machine pistol, handcannon, taser, stealth pistol, machinegun, grenade launcher. Why not settle on one customized pistol (for example, the Fubuki), instead of three? Especially while the LMG doesn't even have two full spare boxes of ammo (one and a little bit if you mix the ammo types).
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Ryu
post Sep 27 2011, 07:56 AM
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Hmm. 1.) Must collect them all, 2.) Versatility, 3.) Different Legalities, 4.) Multiple Weapon Caches
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 27 2011, 08:18 AM
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QUOTE (Ryu @ Sep 27 2011, 09:56 AM) *
Hmm. 1.) Must collect them all, 2.) Versatility, 3.) Different Legalities, 4.) Multiple Weapon Caches

Oh. Yeah. Again, my other hobby comes up (and the bad memories of lugging three pistols, assault rifle and sniper rifle simultaneously). I could still do as fine with less guns (especially if I could load up more ammo instead).

Having two fake SINs at once, not to mention two different commlinks, seems to be all the rage - so is it sensible to use another BP to get those, as well as other gear? For example, a wig. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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Stingray
post Sep 27 2011, 02:53 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Sep 27 2011, 10:50 AM) *
I tweaked the character stats a bit, see the first post.

Also, a general character creation question: why the hell a lot of builds use more guns than a character can carry? For example, this archetype: machine pistol, handcannon, taser, stealth pistol, machinegun, grenade launcher. Why not settle on one customized pistol (for example, the Fubuki), instead of three? Especially while the LMG doesn't even have two full spare boxes of ammo (one and a little bit if you mix the ammo types).

..as combat oriented Charc. there is simple rule " always have a extra weapon, would it be knife,club or Firearm"...
..as in game term .. when rolling dies, you get Glitch, Critical Glitch (!!), GM says your pistol's slide is locked back, and not working
without a visit to your friendly Gunsmith...What!! that was your only gun??...
well..enemies are firing , and approching your position....
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 27 2011, 07:23 PM
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But three pistols AND two main weapons? Hell, I can understand having the LMG as the main weapon, glauncher as special (espec. if loaded with splash, flash or gas grenades) and one pistol as backup, but dragging the hog, the plonker AND three different pistols? Trim it. If you have 20 dice on attack, no way in hell you're going to roll 11 ones with no hits. And if you do... Well, if you have that many guns, and loaded with Ex-Ex ammo, you can afford one to blow up in your face, especially if it's your 5000 nuyen customized Fubuki. You even deserve it for rampant combat pornomancy.
That and you can pick up whatever the enemies dropped.

Oh, and one more thing: does installing spurs in your cyberlimb decrease Essence as well as capacity? I couldn't find any clarification in rulebook nor in FAQ.
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HunterHerne
post Sep 27 2011, 07:29 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Sep 27 2011, 03:23 PM) *
But three pistols AND two main weapons? Hell, I can understand having the LMG as the main weapon, glauncher as special (espec. if loaded with splash, flash or gas grenades) and one pistol as backup, but dragging the hog, the plonker AND three different pistols? Trim it. If you have 20 dice on attack, no way in hell you're going to roll 11 ones with no hits. And if you do... Well, if you have that many guns, and loaded with Ex-Ex ammo, you can afford one to blow up in your face, especially if it's your 5000 nuyen customized Fubuki. You even deserve it for rampant combat pornomancy.
That and you can pick up whatever the enemies dropped.

Oh, and one more thing: does installing spurs in your cyberlimb decrease Essence as well as capacity? I couldn't find any clarification in rulebook nor in FAQ.


No. If you add anything in to cost capacity, it only costs the Capacity. If it has an Essence cost associated, that is how much it costs to add the item to your meat body.
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 27 2011, 07:35 PM
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QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Sep 27 2011, 09:29 PM) *
No. If you add anything in to cost capacity, it only costs the Capacity. If it has an Essence cost associated, that is how much it costs to add the item to your meat body.

Ah, my bad. Completely forgot about the cybereyes. That's where my missing 0.3 Essence went (coincidentally, Cybereyes have as much essence loss as single Spur, I thought that Chummer derped out).
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post Sep 28 2011, 07:00 AM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Sep 27 2011, 10:23 PM) *
But three pistols AND two main weapons? Hell, I can understand having the LMG as the main weapon, glauncher as special (espec. if loaded with splash, flash or gas grenades) and one pistol as backup, but dragging the hog, the plonker AND three different pistols? Trim it. If you have 20 dice on attack, no way in hell you're going to roll 11 ones with no hits. And if you do... Well, if you have that many guns, and loaded with Ex-Ex ammo, you can afford one to blow up in your face, especially if it's your 5000 nuyen customized Fubuki. You even deserve it for rampant combat pornomancy.
That and you can pick up whatever the enemies dropped.

Oh, and one more thing: does installing spurs in your cyberlimb decrease Essence as well as capacity? I couldn't find any clarification in rulebook nor in FAQ.

..yes, u can pick up whatever the enemies dropped, but if u are Troll/Dwarf and dropped enemies are Humans/Orks/Elfs/or other way around.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Whipstitch
post Sep 28 2011, 05:26 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Sep 27 2011, 02:18 AM) *
Oh. Yeah. Again, my other hobby comes up (and the bad memories of lugging three pistols, assault rifle and sniper rifle simultaneously). I could still do as fine with less guns (especially if I could load up more ammo instead).



Owning 3+ guns counting your launchers isn't really all that strange. My last street samurai started with 5 (an Alpha, a Crusader, a custom Executive Protector, an ArmTech MGL6 (shielded smuggler mod in the glove compartment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) ) and a smartlinked Morrissey that he could default to 10 dice with) even if he generally only carried 2 of them at any given time. Even then, one of the first things the team did after our first run was pool cash for a well-secured safehouse with food, water, ammo and a few Ingram Smartgun-Xs.
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Seriously Mike
post Sep 28 2011, 05:52 PM
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QUOTE (Stingray @ Sep 28 2011, 09:00 AM) *
..yes, u can pick up whatever the enemies dropped, but if u are Troll/Dwarf and dropped enemies are Humans/Orks/Elfs/or other way around.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
Dwarf need weapons made for their size too? Weird, I thought they have hands large enough to grip a standard weapon and need only fitted armor.
QUOTE (Whipstitch @ Sep 28 2011, 07:26 PM) *
Owning 3+ guns counting your launchers isn't really all that strange. My last street samurai started with 5 (an Alpha, a Crusader, a custom Executive Protector, an ArmTech MGL6 (shielded smuggler mod in the glove compartment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif) ) and a smartlinked Morrissey that he could default to 10 dice with) even if he generally only carried 2 of them at any given time. Even then, one of the first things the team did after our first run was pool cash for a well-secured safehouse with food, water, ammo and a few Ingram Smartgun-Xs.
Well, weapons aren't that expensive unless you're going for either high-tech or heavy artillery, you really don't have to spend BP on enough guns to arm the whole party.One-two decent runs and you'll either loot something or get paid enough to buy something better.
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Whipstitch
post Sep 28 2011, 05:59 PM
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If the runs go right and you don't have other things you want to buy. The "You can always buy it later" game is kinda silly, really, given that money is often one of the absolute best deals you can get, bp for bp. At my table at least it also generally pays not to be bugging your Fixer for nickel and dime stuff all the time. And even if you do have a Fixer hooking you up with multiple weapons pretty often, that's still not a particularly good argument against the utility of having multiple distinct weapons. Now, if we just want to say that actively carrying a half dozen guns at once or owning multiple guns that do basically the same stuff is silly, then I am inclined to agree with you. I'd still rather have too many guns than too many gun skills though.

This post has been edited by Whipstitch: Sep 28 2011, 06:20 PM
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Stingray
post Sep 29 2011, 08:38 AM
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..in Char.Creat. for metahumans (and their variants) everything they buy is automatically
sized their metatype without extra cost by default.
after that..many ways.. goods are so common and easy to use all metatype. (no extra cost)
goods are not-so common ( and Trolls and Dwarfs are paying 10-25 % more)
for weapons...
in Arsenal there is metahuman Customization- modification option for weapons..
in to confuse even more..
(for example)
that Ares makes their Ares Predator IV pistol
3 different sizes (human-size,troll-size,and dwarf-size)(and everyone pays standard 350y,no extras..)


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Seriously Mike
post Sep 29 2011, 11:56 AM
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QUOTE (Stingray @ Sep 29 2011, 10:38 AM) *
in to confuse even more..
(for example)
that Ares makes their Ares Predator IV pistol
3 different sizes (human-size,troll-size,and dwarf-size)(and everyone pays standard 350y,no extras..)
Well, "different sizes" may be related only to grip and triggerguard size. For example, my dad has a pair of really thick Pachmayr grips installed on his 1911 that I find uncomfortable to hold (I have a bit smaller hands than him). My airsoft Springfield MEU (a 1911 variant) with hand-me-down Hogues my dad deemed "uncomfortable to use" suits me just fine. Now, as a human in Shadowrun you probably could use a dwarf-adjusted weapon without problems, but a troll-adjusted one would be unwieldy.
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Stingray
post Sep 29 2011, 12:06 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Sep 29 2011, 02:56 PM) *
Well, "different sizes" may be related only to grip and triggerguard size. For example, my dad has a pair of really thick Pachmayr grips installed on his 1911 that I find uncomfortable to hold (I have a bit smaller hands than him). My airsoft Springfield MEU (a 1911 variant) with hand-me-down Hogues my dad deemed "uncomfortable to use" suits me just fine. Now, as a human in Shadowrun you probably could use a dwarf-adjusted weapon without problems, but a troll-adjusted one would be unwieldy.

human using dwarf-sized weapon get -2 die penalty,and using troll-sized weapon get -4 die penalty..
rules of using non-proper sized weapon can be found in Arsenal..
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HunterHerne
post Sep 29 2011, 12:58 PM
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QUOTE (Stingray @ Sep 29 2011, 08:06 AM) *
human using dwarf-sized weapon get -2 die penalty,and using troll-sized weapon get -4 die penalty..
rules of using non-proper sized weapon can be found in Arsenal..


Actually, it's -2 for using incorrectly sized, cumulative for additional differences (so a dwarf would get -4 for using Troll weapons, and a troll would get -4 for using dwarf weapons.)
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Stingray
post Sep 29 2011, 01:07 PM
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QUOTE (HunterHerne @ Sep 29 2011, 03:58 PM) *
Actually, it's -2 for using incorrectly sized, cumulative for additional differences (so a dwarf would get -4 for using Troll weapons, and a troll would get -4 for using dwarf weapons.)

thank u for correct info, my books are in my folks.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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HunterHerne
post Sep 29 2011, 01:34 PM
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QUOTE (Stingray @ Sep 29 2011, 09:07 AM) *
thank u for correct info, my books are in my folks.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


No problem. Mistakes happen to the best of us.
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 17 2011, 10:27 AM
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Today a small teaser:
I'm planning to rework my Phoenix Bodyguard into something more viable. I have a short list of changes:
- More Magic. I need at least 3 for the barebones setup (improved reflexes and astral sight), 5 for more fun (Enhanced Perception, Spell Resistance, maybe Combat Sense).
- More books. The Warrior's Way is definitely in, maybe I'll find something interesting in SM too.
- Make L5R references more fluff-related - no Logic 4 at the beginning, but more practical references to the Shiba code (I don't know, some geas about protecting others and never starting a fight yourself).
- Restricted Gear quality for the Force 3 Weapon Focus, ancestral katana named Houou-no-Hane (Phoenix Feather). More melee focus - no Automatics at the start, more points invested in Blades and Pistols. This way I'll be able to clock pretty damn anything, dual natured or not.
- Sensitive System stays.
I'll click the character over to Chummer to keep track of stats more easily.
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 17 2011, 11:57 AM
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Poke, poke, jiggle, jiggle, here it goes. He's more combat-oriented now, but I haven't spent all the free Knowledge Skill points (9 points to spend on Japan-centric topics like Bushido, knowledge of Japanese society and culture) and I'm thinking about ditching Dodge (that's 16 points in a skill I most probably won't use, considering that in melee I can either parry attacks with my katana or block them in HtH, and if someone shoots me, I can put ten points of those 16 in Athletics group and just backflip out of the way like a proper ninja).
Also, Chummer counts Improved Reflexes differently than they're given in SR4. Have they been made cheaper in SR4A?

Name: Masaru Shiba
Street Name: Nicks
Karma: 0
Street Cred: 0
Notoriety: 0
Public Awareness: 0
Human Male Age 26
Height 5'11" Weight 163 lbs
Composure: 6
Judge Intentions: 7
Lift/Carry: 5 (30 kg/20 kg)
Memory: 6
Nuyen: 1623

Attributes:
[ Spoiler ]


Skills:
[ Spoiler ]


Qualities:
[ Spoiler ]


Powers:
[ Spoiler ]


Equipment:
[ Spoiler ]
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UmaroVI
post Oct 17 2011, 01:44 PM
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Hey, to answer your question about the Ghost: the idea is that you don't carry all your weapons all the time. If you're storming a compound, you probably pack the machine gun, the grenade launching pistol, and the Ruger Thunderbolt. If you're going to meet the Johnson in a theme bar, you probably pack the pistols/tasers, and the grenade launcher-pistol. If you're trying to slip past good security that plans to pat you down, you maybe just bring the taser, or bring the taser and the holdout pistol, et cetera.
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 17 2011, 02:25 PM
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Oh. Makes sense, then. Still, I'd ditch the Fubuki and get something cheaper instead.
And check the equipment on my Adept, I think I love the Elan. It's a peashooter, but it's an invisible peashooter. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)
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squee_nabob
post Oct 17 2011, 09:52 PM
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It's only invisible to MAD, cyberware scanners see it just fine
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UmaroVI
post Oct 17 2011, 11:22 PM
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In fairness, Cyberware scanners make the game into Magicrun, and there's nothing you can do about that but be a magician.
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 18 2011, 07:57 AM
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QUOTE (squee_nabob @ Oct 17 2011, 11:52 PM) *
It's only invisible to MAD, cyberware scanners see it just fine

Who's going to suspect an adept with Darrow's Syndrome (or, crunch-wise, Sensitive System) of having any cyberware on him?

Also, what would be better: Stealth group at 2 or Negotiation at 3 and Etiquette at 2? Bodyguards usually don't need stealth and that's exactly what my character is.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 18 2011, 02:17 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Oct 18 2011, 01:57 AM) *
Who's going to suspect an adept with Darrow's Syndrome (or, crunch-wise, Sensitive System) of having any cyberware on him?


Has nothing to do with that. It has to do with the Scanner being installed in the door that the Adept just walked through. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Irion
post Oct 18 2011, 02:32 PM
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@Seriously Mike
QUOTE
Who's going to suspect an adept with Darrow's Syndrome (or, crunch-wise, Sensitive System) of having any cyberware on him?

If the opposition has your medical file dating back to your childhood, you are fucked anyway.

One remark on cyberwarescanners:
They suck hard.
They are unable to find bioware and it is unlikely for them to find beta or even delta ware.
Considering the fact, that you also need net hits for information...
They only cause problems for the "I have 7 cyber implants from the start and half is illegal" kind of characters.
Very much like Wards pose the same problem for their magic equivalent.
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 18 2011, 03:16 PM
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QUOTE (Irion @ Oct 18 2011, 04:32 PM) *
@Seriously Mike
They only cause problems for the "I have 7 cyber implants from the start and half is illegal" kind of characters.

How do I hide illegal implants from a scanner? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 18 2011, 03:30 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Oct 18 2011, 08:16 AM) *
How do I hide illegal implants from a scanner? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)


Get them in Delta Grade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 18 2011, 03:53 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 18 2011, 05:30 PM) *
Get them in Delta Grade. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Delta spurs on a starting character? Umadbrov?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 18 2011, 04:50 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Oct 18 2011, 09:53 AM) *
Delta spurs on a starting character? Umadbrov?


Admittedly hard (Impossible) to get at chargen, yes. Alpha Grade imposes a Threshold 2 for Scanners, so that is a place to start. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 18 2011, 06:07 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 18 2011, 06:50 PM) *
Admittedly hard (Impossible) to get at chargen, yes. Alpha Grade imposes a Threshold 2 for Scanners, so that is a place to start. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

*makes funny noises trying to pick up the corebook off the floor* Damn. And they get +2 dice for all the shit Olga has installed. That's enough potential hits to figure out that my cyberarms are armored Evo heavy duty models with upgraded myostrands, actuators and frames, and... oh shit. I still can spend one BP to upgrade both spurs to Alpha for 3600 nuyen, though.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 18 2011, 06:25 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Oct 18 2011, 11:07 AM) *
*makes funny noises trying to pick up the corebook off the floor* Damn. And they get +2 dice for all the shit Olga has installed. That's enough potential hits to figure out that my cyberarms are armored Evo heavy duty models with upgraded myostrands, actuators and frames, and... oh shit. I still can spend one BP to upgrade both spurs to Alpha for 3600 nuyen, though.


Yep, the more you have, the harder it is. Though even a Rating 6 Scanner will only roll 9 Dice (Assuming you have 6+ Systems installed). Which is a good incentive to get to Delta Grade when you can (Threshold 5+). But Your typical Scanners are going to be R3-R4 Devices. So Alpha is not too horrrible. And Beta will keep you mostly from being detected. Unfortunately, your non-cyber weapons are still detected on a Threshold 1.
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 18 2011, 07:32 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 18 2011, 08:25 PM) *
Unfortunately, your non-cyber weapons are still detected on a Threshold 1.
Unless the mooks inside whatever the scanner is protecting are packing shotguns, that's not a problem. Take the first one down with fists or blades, pick up his toy, showtime.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 18 2011, 08:04 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Oct 18 2011, 01:32 PM) *
Unless the mooks inside whatever the scanner is protecting are packing shotguns, that's not a problem. Take the first one down with fists or blades, pick up his toy, showtime.


True...
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 18 2011, 08:40 PM
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However, the physad still has a problem. 15 dice with a katana can produce enough hits to seriously wound anything, be it a mook, a paracritter or a materialized spirit, but without it... uh oh. Half the dice go out.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 18 2011, 09:26 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Oct 18 2011, 01:40 PM) *
However, the physad still has a problem. 15 dice with a katana can produce enough hits to seriously wound anything, be it a mook, a paracritter or a materialized spirit, but without it... uh oh. Half the dice go out.


Which is why, if you are worried about losing it (The Katana), and if you are going Melee, and you are a Physad, you do not use a weapon. You go Unarmed. Katana is Str/2+3, AP -1 Yes?

Unarmed Combat with Killing Hands, Critical Strike 3 and Penetrating Strike 1 (1.5 PP Total) gives the same base stat as a Katana, of Str/2+3, AP -1.
And you can raise that even more with Martial Arts and other Unarmed Adept abilities. In fact, for a half point more, your AP would be AP -3.

*shrug* Lots of choices... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 18 2011, 10:02 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 18 2011, 11:26 PM) *
Which is why, if you are worried about losing it (The Katana), and if you are going Melee, and you are a Physad, you do not use a weapon. You go Unarmed. Katana is Str/2+3, AP -1 Yes?

No. The character is a bodyguard, and a Japanese one at that. As a physad, he's more of a samurai than a kung fu master. Apart from using a katana to dispatch magical dangers, he's also a decent shooter. As for unarmed combat, I kinda overlooked that and I'd be scrambling for points to do anything about it.

Also, Katana has reach, as a sword. That's one more dice against people having smaller toys.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 19 2011, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Oct 18 2011, 03:02 PM) *
No. The character is a bodyguard, and a Japanese one at that. As a physad, he's more of a samurai than a kung fu master. Apart from using a katana to dispatch magical dangers, he's also a decent shooter. As for unarmed combat, I kinda overlooked that and I'd be scrambling for points to do anything about it.

Also, Katana has reach, as a sword. That's one more dice against people having smaller toys.


Gotcha, and very true, though the Penetrating Strike is better AP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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UmaroVI
post Oct 19 2011, 05:16 PM
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This is ultimately the core problem with a lot of melee weapons in Shadowrun.

In the grim darkness of the cyberpunk future, why do people use melee weapons instead of guns? For some melee weapons, there's an answer - for unarmed combat, it's impossible to "disarm" you. Spurs and other cyber-implant weaponry, similarly (and they don't use Exotic like cyberguns). But a katana? The core problem with katanas is that they are just as hard to hide as an assault rifle and less good than an assault rifle.

Now, one sensible way to go is to pick Unarmed, and then carry shock gloves too. This is a pretty reasonable option - while you are shooting people, you can still get Unarmed to melee defense, and the grim darkness of the cyberpunk future is full of people that really desperately want to melee you. You also get to Subdue people and can't be fully disarmed, which is handy.

Another way to go is to Blades, and use spurs. Spurs are hideable, do great damage, use Blades, and can even be weapon foci. While you have the Blades skill to use your spurs, you also use bayonets on your guns (so you can apply Blades to melee defense while shooting). And hey, it can't hurt you to carry a vibro blade (or a katana or no-dachi if you really love GRORIOUS NIPPON that much), even if you frequently check it at the door.

A third way to go is all-out melee specialist, which looks similar to one of the above two except that you're playing in a game that at the very least allows Martial Arts, because they you can use Two-Weapon Style to justify your existence. Regardless of how silly melee combat generally is in the dark eighties future, there are plenty of monsters that are really good at melee, and the ability of a TWS character to maintain solid offense and defense simultaneously against melee is a worthwhile schtick. Martial arts (especially combined with either Adept powers and 'ware, or a Mystic Adept) also allows you to hand out enough damage for people to care about. Without martial arts, this winds up being a very sad way to go and you'll wind up crying yourself to sleep unless the rest of the group is playing similarly lower-powered characters, or you are the only person trying to be good at fighting and the GM dials the challenges down to what you can handle.
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 19 2011, 07:09 PM
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Ah hell. The adept is pretty much pink mohawk, style over substance, while Olga/Kestrel is more toned down and still effective. However, when you have an adept with a spirit-killing katana AND knowledge which end of the gun to point at other enemies, things look pretty good and should get better with a couple of well-spent Karma points. That and some people will be VERY interested in that 30K nuyen weapon focus, more than, let's say, a pimped-out sniper rifle they can source from elsewhere.

Seriously, the more I look at combat-oriented adepts, the shittier they seem.
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Ryu
post Oct 19 2011, 07:23 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Oct 19 2011, 09:09 PM) *
Ah hell. The adept is pretty much pink mohawk, style over substance, while Olga/Kestrel is more toned down and still effective. However, when you have an adept with a spirit-killing katana AND knowledge which end of the gun to point at other enemies, things look pretty good and should get better with a couple of well-spent Karma points. That and some people will be VERY interested in that 30K nuyen weapon focus, more than, let's say, a pimped-out sniper rifle they can source from elsewhere.

Seriously, the more I look at combat-oriented adepts, the shittier they seem.

You should consider the long-term potential of augmented adepts. Load up on essential bioware. Disregard the astral potential, put the focus on powers that are not duplicated by ware.

Or start mundane and get Latent Awakening. Risk: You might end up as a magician.
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UmaroVI
post Oct 19 2011, 07:26 PM
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Pretty much, yeah. Unaugmented adepts are just bad at life in general. Combat-oriented augmented adepts are giving up a lot of breadth for a little bit more specialization than mundanes.
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 20 2011, 08:37 AM
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*sigh* I will never get used to augmented Adepts.
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Loch
post Oct 20 2011, 09:19 AM
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I wonder, does Dumpshock want to look at my magician? Here's the first draft of Crapshoot, the Mercenary Mage. I should mention that this guy was built using Karmagen, with 10 extra Karma from plot advancement, Attributes at 5xRating, free karma for contacts and knowledge skills, and gear restrictions of 12/10R/8F. There is a cap on all attributes at chargen of 375+(Metatype cost/2). Anywho, here's the build:

Metatype: Dwarf (could go for gnome too, but I figured it's better not to bother with Arcane Arrester as a magician)- 25

Attributes:380
Body 4/Agility 3/Reaction 4/Strength 3/Charisma 3/Intuition 5/Logic 3/Willpower 7/Edge 6/Magic 6

Qualities: Positive Qualities 70, Negative Qualities -70
Magician, Focused Concentration 2, Enemy (MET2000 Lieutenant, Incidence 3/Connection 4), Records on File (MET2000), Bad Rep, Allergy (Uncommon- polonium, moderate)

Skills: 262
Spellcasting 5, Counterspelling 4, Summoning 4, Binding 4, Assensing 5, Perception (Visual) 4(6), Longarms 3, Dodge (Ranged) 4(6), Outdoors Group 3, Stealth Group 3

Knowledge Skills: 64 free Karma

Spells: 45
Increase Reflexes, Improved Invisibility, Levitate, Stunbolt, Napalm, Trid Phantasm, Detect Enemies, Combat Sense, Mind Probe

Bonded Foci: 12
Force 2 Sustaining Focus (health)
Force 2 Sustaining Focus (detection)
Force 2 Sustaining Focus (detection)

Resources: 36
FFBA Half suit w/ nonconductivity 6, fire protection 6, chemical protection 6
Armor Jacket
Rating 6 Goggles w/ vision enhancement 3, image link, smartlink, vision magnification, flare compensation, low-light vision
SPAS-22 Shotgun w/ sling, foregrip, gas vent 3
100 SnS shells
40 Flechette shells
Ruger-100 Sport Rifle w/ external smartgun system, silencer
100 rifle rounds
Battle Buddy Basic Commlink
Firewall 6
System 3
Rating 6 Directional Antenna
FTL MatrixWizard Program Suite
Trodes
Force 2 Sustaining Focus (Health)
Force 2 Sustaining Focus (Detection)
Force 2 Sustaining Focus (Detection)
Health Fetish
Combat Fetish
Detection Fetish
Illusion Fetish
Manipulation Fetish

Contacts: 24 free Karma

Total Karma: 760

I guess I should also mention that this guy is using a homebrew tradition, based off cartomancy, Tarot, and divinations. It's an Intuition-based tradition, with access to Fire, Air, Water, Man and Guardian spirits. RP-wise, the guy's an ex-MET2000 magician who ended up being the sole survivor of his outfit when they were ambushed by Azzies in Bogota. Since it would normally be his job to have Detect Enemies up and running to warn the unit, it doesn't exactly paint a good picture for his LT when this goes down, and he left Bogota before the LT could begin his investigation. Hence the negative qualities I picked there. Any glaring inadequacies so far?

I guess I'm also looking for characterful suggestions for knowledge skills and contacts that an on-the-run mercenary magician might have.
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 20 2011, 09:36 AM
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QUOTE (Loch @ Oct 20 2011, 11:19 AM) *
I wonder, does Dumpshock want to look at my magician?

Of course, you're welcome. That was actually the idea of this thread, but then it turned out that only I used it for help.

But:
Allergic to polonium? You have to be kidding me there. You do know what polonium does to people, and former Russian spies in particular?
Also, someone here said that Pistol skill is insanely useful. You know, concealability, popularity, availability, that sort of stuff. Lugging your arsenal in a duffle bag is a bit obvious.
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UmaroVI
post Oct 20 2011, 10:57 AM
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Pistols is far less good as a magician. If people don't let you bring your heavier weapon in, you can still stunbolt people with your mind. The main time you'd want weapons is in heavy background count, and that tends not to coincide with places you can't carry a weapon.

I will point out that Longarms < Automatics, though; you really don't need a sniper rifle as a magician given that spells have LOS range, and as someone who is only meh with guns, wide bursts are good. And you can always jam a machine pistol down your pants and claim you're just happy to see them.

I don't think it's worth the drain savings to have Detect Enemies instead of Extended Detect Enemies, given how much drain soak you have and that you're only casting it at force 2 to put it in your focus anyways.

Re: Dwarf vs. Gnome, you should check how your GM interprets Arcane Arrester. RAW, it only halves force-based effects, which doesn't do much to any of the spells you'd be casting on yourself (it does reduce the range of Extended Detect Enemies). Some GMs rule that it caps the hits too, although the text indicates otherwise, in which case you can't really have it as a magician.

Napalm is a crap spell, the double elemental effect is all Magic Tea Party anyways and it isn't worth the drain. Blizzard is a much better spell. I would also want Stunball if you can scrape up 5 karma.

I would rather have 6 intuition and 6 willpower than 5/7. Initiative is super important, also you have a lot of Intuition-based skills. I would also try to scrape up for Reaction 5.

IMO, Assensing 4 is plenty good enough; I'd rather have more of something else like Spellcasting.

I agree with Mike that the allergy is bull.

Your armor is messed up. You are encumbered, but also below the maximum Impact armor you can have. Check the link in my sig and look at the Spook and the Info Savant for examples of appropriate armor for a Body 4 character.

You have no mentor spirit, which is bad because mentor spirits are full of winning and are super cost effective. There are about a zillion good ones, but Dark Goddess, Dark King, and Sun come to mind as ones that give you nice, direct benefits.

To use fetishes, you have to decide in advance that the spell is limited to only work with the fetish. But you didn't mark any of your spells as limited.

Some skill/contact suggestions:

Knowledge: Small Unit Tactics
Mercenary Companies
Security Procedures
MilSpec Technology
Contacts: Mainly, I'd suggest a talismonger - maybe a retired MCT combat mage that you're still on good terms with?




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Seriously Mike
post Oct 20 2011, 12:13 PM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Oct 20 2011, 12:57 PM) *
Your armor is messed up. You are encumbered, but also below the maximum Impact armor you can have. Check the link in my sig and look at the Spook and the Info Savant for examples of appropriate armor for a Body 4 character.

Or see my Kestrel build in the very first post. However, Kestrel is a bit broken due to her cyberarms (and I even decided that cyberlimb armor doesn't stack with itself, in that case it'd be even more broken), but you'll be able to get 11 Ballistic armor and roughly 9 Impact without getting encumbered (your main armor should be 6/2 FFBA suit and a 5/5 armor vest or that reinforced boiler suit people suggested, then you top it with PPP bits (shin guards, forearm braces and a helmet should give you +0/+4).
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UmaroVI
post Oct 20 2011, 02:02 PM
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Oh, also, specialize your spellcasting, summoning, binding, and guns skills.
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Loch
post Oct 20 2011, 08:09 PM
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Okay, dropping Wil to 6 for Int 6 seems a good enough trade. Done.
I also dropped assensing to 4, which gives me the 10 Karma I need for a mentor spirit. I'm going with Wise Warrior there to fit the military theme and give him bonuses to the two types of spells he'll be casting most (priority one is gonna be getting higher force sustaining foci for detect enemies/combat sense).

Napalm was mostly a fluff choice to help build the concept of an ex-military merc (War is all hell or something to that effect), but we do have a running joke about how Napalm is what the pros use, because otherwise you'd have to be crazy to risk such high drain. I'm kind of partial to keeping it, but in the grand scheme of things it's not strictly necessary for the character. Stunball would be an equally valid choice. What book is Blizzard from, Digital Grimoire? I can't seem to find it in Street Magic, SR4A, or Bogota!

Automatics makes more sense than Longarms, so I'll do that. Any suggestions for a gun? I'm thinking a Machine Pistol/SMG for myself and possibly an AR for a guardian spirit to use.

Now to try and fix the rest of this guy's gear and see what I can cut to pick up some specializations...
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 20 2011, 08:38 PM
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QUOTE (Loch @ Oct 20 2011, 11:19 AM) *
Health Fetish
Combat Fetish
Detection Fetish
Illusion Fetish
Manipulation Fetish
Which spells do you wish to cast with the fetish? Do know that any spells you use with the fetishes cannot be cast if you lose them? Cf. Limited spells SR4A p. 182
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Loch
post Oct 20 2011, 10:24 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 20 2011, 03:38 PM) *
Which spells do you wish to cast with the fetish? Do know that any spells you use with the fetishes cannot be cast if you lose them? Cf. Limited spells SR4A p. 182


Hmmm...also a good question. At first I thought you just needed one fetish per category of spells, but I see now that it's more specific. Here are my thoughts so far:
Health fetish is for Increase Reflexes, my only health spell
Manipulation fetish is for Levitate, my only manipulation spell
Illusion fetish is for Imp. Invisibility, my only illusion spell
I guess that leaves me with a choice between stunbolt and napalm for the combat fetish and between combat sense, detect enemies and mind probe for the detection fetish. Offhand, I'm inclined to go with Napalm and Mind Probe as the limited ones for now, since they have higher drain or are being cast at higher force than the others.
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 21 2011, 04:44 AM
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You have a drain resistance pool of 12, that nets you 4 hits on average. I wouldn't bother about limiting spells that cause drain of 4 or less at the usual Force. 2 more dice only give you 2/3 of a hit extra.
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 21 2011, 07:51 AM
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QUOTE (Loch @ Oct 21 2011, 12:24 AM) *
Hmmm...also a good question. At first I thought you just needed one fetish per category of spells, but I see now that it's more specific. Here are my thoughts so far:
Health fetish is for Increase Reflexes, my only health spell
Manipulation fetish is for Levitate, my only manipulation spell
Illusion fetish is for Imp. Invisibility, my only illusion spell
I guess that leaves me with a choice between stunbolt and napalm for the combat fetish and between combat sense, detect enemies and mind probe for the detection fetish. Offhand, I'm inclined to go with Napalm and Mind Probe as the limited ones for now, since they have higher drain or are being cast at higher force than the others.

And let me guess, those fetishes are tarot cards. Pretty awesome. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 21 2011, 01:40 PM
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How about Geas: Tarot cards?
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Loch
post Oct 21 2011, 01:49 PM
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I was going to save that for when this guy actually initiates, since it gives a more tangible benefit there. For now, I'm cool with fetish-as-tarot cards.

A couple questions about spirits-
Guardian spirits can come with a combat skill as an optional power. Does that include specialization in said skill?
I know a guardian spirit can pick up and shoot a gun, but what about other equipment? Can it wear armor? A commlink? Benefit from a smartlink or a tacnet?
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 21 2011, 01:57 PM
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QUOTE (Loch @ Oct 21 2011, 03:49 PM) *
I was going to save that for when this guy actually initiates, since it gives a more tangible benefit there. For now, I'm cool with fetish-as-tarot cards.
What does imposing a restriction on magic use have to do with furthering your understanding of magic?

QUOTE (Loch @ Oct 21 2011, 03:49 PM) *
Does that include specialization in said skill?
Nope. a specialization is not automatic with a skill it has to be bought separately. Since Spirits only get the skill, they don't have any specialization in it.

QUOTE (Loch @ Oct 21 2011, 03:49 PM) *
I know a guardian spirit can pick up and shoot a gun, but what about other equipment? Can it wear armor?
If the materialised form is humanoid, yes.

QUOTE (Loch @ Oct 21 2011, 03:49 PM) *
A commlink? Benefit from a smartlink or a tacnet?
Nope, Spirits cannot process simsense.
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UmaroVI
post Oct 21 2011, 03:09 PM
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QUOTE (Loch @ Oct 20 2011, 04:09 PM) *
What book is Blizzard from, Digital Grimoire? I can't seem to find it in Street Magic, SR4A, or Bogota!

Automatics makes more sense than Longarms, so I'll do that. Any suggestions for a gun? I'm thinking a Machine Pistol/SMG for myself and possibly an AR for a guardian spirit to use.

Blizzard is the AE Ice elemental spell. It's Fireball, but Ice damage. See Street Magic for how Ice works - what makes it good is that it forces Crash Tests.

Choice of automatics depends somewhat on how much money you want to spend on customization. Here's a good loadout that I already have made:

Ares Executive Protector (1000) with built-in Smartlink (500), Personalized Grip mod (100), Gas-Vent 3 Mod (400)

Ares Alpha (1700) with Gas Vent 3 Accessory (400), Shock Pad Accessory (50), Underbarrel Weight mod (25), Chameleon Coating mod (1000), Personalized Grip mod (100)

The Alpha is very unsubtle, but has 8 recoil compensation allowing you to long burst/short burst. The Executive Protector is less good for fighting, but looks like a briefcase so you can carry it around places where the Alpha is not socially acceptable.

Another useful gun:

700 Ares Crusader: 4P SA/BF, RC 2, 40© (7R) [Machine Pistol]
0 Gas-vent 2 system: 2 RC (factored in)
400 External Smartgun System (Top mount) (4R)
150 Rigid Stock: 1 RC
100 Personalized Grip: 1 Recoil Compensation [1]
25 Underbarrel weight: 1 Recoil Compensation [2]
1,000 Chameleon Coating: -4 to Concealment (10R) [2]
20 Barrel Reduction: -1 to Concealment, -20% range [1]

This is the machine pistol you stick in your pants. It has 5 RC, allowing for burst fire, and a concealment of -2.

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Hida Tsuzua
post Oct 21 2011, 03:41 PM
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QUOTE (Loch @ Oct 21 2011, 02:49 PM) *
A couple questions about spirits-
Guardian spirits can come with a combat skill as an optional power. Does that include specialization in said skill?
I know a guardian spirit can pick up and shoot a gun, but what about other equipment? Can it wear armor? A commlink? Benefit from a smartlink or a tacnet?


It doesn't come with a specialization since skills by default don't come with specialization.

Generally spirits can use mechanical or otherwise "dumb" devices. So they can pick up a gun and pull the trigger or wear armor and get protection from bullets. They however generally run into issues with using electronics gear. They don't have nervous systems or real eyes, but just have weird astral based senses to the point where they can't really read physical books per se much less AR. So I'll say no to a commlink, smartlinks, and tacnets using guardian spirits. You might be able to use laser sight though.

You occasionally encounter people using task spirits that hack using braille enabled commlinks, but the support or explicit banning of this is lacking. I will argue that it's against the spirit of the magic and technology dualism/antagonism that exists in SR though.
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Slithery D
post Oct 21 2011, 04:40 PM
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QUOTE (Dakka Dakka @ Oct 21 2011, 09:57 AM) *
What does imposing a restriction on magic use have to do with furthering your understanding of magic?

If you take a geas you can make it the same as your Centering technique?
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 21 2011, 05:31 PM
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QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Oct 21 2011, 09:41 AM) *
They however generally run into issues with using electronics gear. They don't have nervous systems or real eyes, but just have weird astral based senses to the point where they can't really read physical books per se much less AR. So I'll say no to a commlink, smartlinks, and tacnets using guardian spirits.


I Don't Know, Buttercup reads comic books IIRC.
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Loch
post Oct 21 2011, 05:52 PM
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Owning comic books and reading them are different things. Or does she own more books than just the ones Big D left her?
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Seriously Mike
post Oct 21 2011, 06:24 PM
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QUOTE (Loch @ Oct 21 2011, 07:52 PM) *
Owning comic books and reading them are different things. Or does she own more books than just the ones Big D left her?

Big D said she loves manga. But still, using a tacnet or a smartlink is right out. Books are "dumb" technology after all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 21 2011, 07:24 PM
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QUOTE (Seriously Mike @ Oct 21 2011, 12:24 PM) *
Big D said she loves manga. But still, using a tacnet or a smartlink is right out. Books are "dumb" technology after all (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)


Heh... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Loch
post Oct 21 2011, 07:48 PM
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QUOTE (UmaroVI @ Oct 21 2011, 11:09 AM) *
Blizzard is the AE Ice elemental spell. It's Fireball, but Ice damage. See Street Magic for how Ice works - what makes it good is that it forces Crash Tests.

Choice of automatics depends somewhat on how much money you want to spend on customization. Here's a good loadout that I already have made:

Ares Executive Protector (1000) with built-in Smartlink (500), Personalized Grip mod (100), Gas-Vent 3 Mod (400)

Ares Alpha (1700) with Gas Vent 3 Accessory (400), Shock Pad Accessory (50), Underbarrel Weight mod (25), Chameleon Coating mod (1000), Personalized Grip mod (100)

The Alpha is very unsubtle, but has 8 recoil compensation allowing you to long burst/short burst. The Executive Protector is less good for fighting, but looks like a briefcase so you can carry it around places where the Alpha is not socially acceptable.

Another useful gun:

700 Ares Crusader: 4P SA/BF, RC 2, 40© (7R) [Machine Pistol]
0 Gas-vent 2 system: 2 RC (factored in)
400 External Smartgun System (Top mount) (4R)
150 Rigid Stock: 1 RC
100 Personalized Grip: 1 Recoil Compensation [1]
25 Underbarrel weight: 1 Recoil Compensation [2]
1,000 Chameleon Coating: -4 to Concealment (10R) [2]
20 Barrel Reduction: -1 to Concealment, -20% range [1]

This is the machine pistol you stick in your pants. It has 5 RC, allowing for burst fire, and a concealment of -2.


These are nifty, but unfortunately for me I'd have to take Restricted Gear twice for the Executive Protector and the Alpha under my GM's gear rules at chargen. I'm currently going with a Steyr TMP machine pistol and an AK-98 AR, both with gas vent 3, external smartgun, personalized grip, foregrip and sling. That's definitely not enough RC on the AR, and probably not enough on the MP if I want to do more than burst fire (which is the point of a TMP over a different MP anyway). I like the chameleon coating on the MP, but I dunno if I can swing that within the budget this guy is on.

Also, I don't know how useful an AR w/ underbarrel GL would be in the hands of a Guardian spirit, since they only get one combat skill per optional power. I'm thinking about just using a regular AK for him until I can get my hands on something better like an HVAR. Thoughts?
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UmaroVI
post Oct 21 2011, 08:34 PM
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QUOTE (Loch @ Oct 21 2011, 02:48 PM) *
These are nifty, but unfortunately for me I'd have to take Restricted Gear twice for the Executive Protector and the Alpha under my GM's gear rules at chargen. I'm currently going with a Steyr TMP machine pistol and an AK-98 AR, both with gas vent 3, external smartgun, personalized grip, foregrip and sling. That's definitely not enough RC on the AR, and probably not enough on the MP if I want to do more than burst fire (which is the point of a TMP over a different MP anyway). I like the chameleon coating on the MP, but I dunno if I can swing that within the budget this guy is on.

Also, I don't know how useful an AR w/ underbarrel GL would be in the hands of a Guardian spirit, since they only get one combat skill per optional power. I'm thinking about just using a regular AK for him until I can get my hands on something better like an HVAR. Thoughts?


The grenade launcher is for silly. You use the Alpha because it has 2 inherent recoil compensation, and the grenade launcher is just a free bonus.

The guns are relatively cheap, so I would stick with what you have right now for chargen, and just spend some money on getting proper guns later. You might also be able to get away with looted guns.

The Ares HVBR is a really, really good gun, but you need to have a way to get a bit more recoil compensation out of it than can be built in - the magic number with HV is 11. Gyrostabilization can do this, though, and guardian spirits are not super subtle anyways, so I might consider getting a slightly modded HVBR and a gyrostabilizer for your guardian spirit. An alternative is to equip it with a HMG, but that is more expensive (since you need to mod it for HV, and that costs a hefty chunk of change - if you don't mod it for HV, the HVBR is generally better).
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Hida Tsuzua
post Oct 21 2011, 08:36 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Oct 21 2011, 05:31 PM) *
I Don't Know, Buttercup reads comic books IIRC.


Spirits don't read in the sense of seeing a word as bunch of characters. They can however see any emotional "charges" the work might have (which has interesting implication for literary analysis).
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Dakka Dakka
post Oct 21 2011, 09:53 PM
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QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Oct 21 2011, 10:36 PM) *
Spirits don't read in the sense of seeing a word as bunch of characters. They can however see any emotional "charges" the work might have (which has interesting implication for literary analysis).
Materialized Spirits can of course see the letters and pictures, whether they can make sense of the symbols has never been confirmed or denied in the rules. Every materialized Spirit has physical senses, some even have enhanced ones. Since free spirits can learn, it wouldn't be much of a problem for Buttercup to pick up English, whether spoken or written.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Oct 21 2011, 09:57 PM
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QUOTE (Hida Tsuzua @ Oct 21 2011, 02:36 PM) *
Spirits don't read in the sense of seeing a word as bunch of characters. They can however see any emotional "charges" the work might have (which has interesting implication for literary analysis).


There are no "emotional charges" in an off the rack piece of literature, as they are all produced en masse, by machines.. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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