What is a melee/ranged attack?, Or when does Combat Sense apply? Options

[Dakka Dakka]

Among other things Combat Sense adds dice "when defending against ranged and melee attacks". Mostly this is clear, but what happens if the adept is rammed by a vehicle or an Indirect Combat Spell?

Neither are melee or ranged attacks, they only follow the same mechanism. Heightened situational awareness should help in both cases though.

What about Astral Combat?

Opinions?

[Stalag]

Among other things Combat Sense adds dice "when defending against ranged and melee attacks". Mostly this is clear, but what happens if the adept is rammed by a vehicle or an Indirect Combat Spell?

Neither are melee or ranged attacks, they only follow the same mechanism. Heightened situational awareness should help in both cases though.

What about Astral Combat?

Opinions?

Well it's added dice to your Reaction for the Surprise test, not for actual defense from the attack. Read literally it would only count if the surprising party intended to shoot you, throw something at you, or wack you with something.

However, that would mandate actions being declared before Surprise rolls are made. Since, following the rules literally, actions aren't declared until after the initiative roles (which the Surprise test is part of) it wouldn't necessarily have been determined yet if the attack would be from a spell or a gun. By that alone I'd consider it purely a "Surprise" modifier.

As to vehicles...

If a driver wants to ram something (or someone) with the vehicle, treat it as a melee attack.

So you could consider that covered by Combat Sense

[Critias]

Well it's added dice to your Reaction for the Surprise test, not for actual defense from the attack.

Nope. It's the other way around. Combat Sense is applied to the defense rolls from attacks.

As to when it applies, I apply it based on the descriptor of the attack in question. Ramming is specifically pointed out as being handled like a melee attack, so there you go (as Stalag pointed out). I don't have my books with me here at work, but a careful reading of how to handle Indirect Combat Spells should tell you what you need to know. Does it say to work it out exactly like a ranged attack?

[Dakka Dakka]

You are mistaken. Combat Sense adds dice under two distinct conditions: On surprise tests and when defending against melee or ranged attacks. Only one of them needs to be met.

The character gains one die per level for Reaction on Surprise Tests and when defending against ranged and melee attacks.

So combat sense also helps against attacks if the adept is not in danger of being surprised.

@Critias: Yes Indirect Combat Spells and Astral Combats are all handled like melee/ranged combat. The problem is "handled like" is not equal to "is". I know this is nitpicking, but to make rules clearer, those attacks should either be defined as being melee/ranged attacks or Combat Sense should be worded in a way that includes those attacks. By RAW they are not included.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You should probably read it again, Stalag.

Combat Sense provides an instinctive sense about an area and any potential threats nearby. The character gains one die per level for Reaction on Surprise Tests and when defending against ranged and melee attacks.

The Bonus Dice for a Surprise Test are completely separate from the defense Dice gained against Melee and Ranged combat.

EDIT: Damn, Ninja'd by Critias AND Dakka Dakka.
And yes, Critias, Indirect Spells are treated just like a Ranged Attack.

[Stalag]

You should probably read it again, Stalag.

Yes, I missed the "and" so I can't even argue this one.

I give... I'll just go back to lurking instead of trying to contribute (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

(though I will note this makes Combat Sense much better than I originally thought it was)

[McDougle]

Yes, I missed the "and" so I can't even argue this one.

I give... I'll just go back to lurking instead of trying to contribute (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

(though I will note this makes Combat Sense much better than I originally thought it was)

It is... I just noticed that myself. xD



The important part of this discussion is: Does this mean, that Combat Sense always adds its rate to Dodge-tests, or are there exceptions?

[Stalag]

The important part of this discussion is: Does this mean, that Combat Sense always adds its rate to Dodge-tests, or are there exceptions?

Or "When would you dodge something that couldn't be considered an attack?"


GM: "The mountains rumble and boulders start rolling down the hill at you"
Player: "I dodge with +3 from Combat Sense"
GM: "That only applies if you're being attacked"
Player: "The mountain is attacking me with it's boulders!"
(IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

As far as I know anytime you may roll a dodge attack you may add your combat sense dice.
My favorite character was an Adept jaguar shapeshifter with Reaction 6 (9), Improved Reflexes 3, Combat Sense 6 and Dodge (Ranged) 5 (7).
I would always go into full defense and run towards the shooters until I reached melee and then it was biting time.

[Stalag]

As far as I know anytime you may roll a dodge attack you may add your combat sense dice.
My favorite character was an Adept shapeshifter with Reaction 6 (9), Improved Reflexes 3, Combat Sense 6 and Dodge (Ranged) 5 (7).
I would always go into full defense and run towards the shooters until I reached melee and then it was biting time.

And with regen it didn't even matter if you got winged a couple times on the way...

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Believe me, it does. I dind't have enough PP to buy mystical armor and I didn't wear any armor anyway, so if I got hit, I GOT HIT. There were two times where my regeneration barely saved me. On was against 5 yakuza soldiers in CQB armed with flechette shotguns (THE PAIN!! THE PAIN!!!) and the other one was against three tracked drones armed with LMG's and gel rounds.

[Stalag]

armed with flechette shotguns (THE PAIN!! THE PAIN!!!) and the other one was against three tracked drones armed with LMG's and gel rounds.

Yakuza who don't assume all attackers will be wearing armor?? Amazing!

[Dakka Dakka]

Yakuza who don't assume all attackers will be wearing armor?? Amazing!

Hmm, he did say shotguns. I think using shot (works like flechette) in smoothbore weapons is pretty standard. Tough luck for the shifter though.

[Ol' Scratch]

@Critias: Yes Indirect Combat Spells and Astral Combats are all handled like melee/ranged combat. The problem is "handled like" is not equal to "is". I know this is nitpicking, but to make rules clearer, those attacks should either be defined as being melee/ranged attacks or Combat Sense should be worded in a way that includes those attacks. By RAW they are not included.

It's fine as is. "Handled like" means "handled like." Not "handled like this only under certain circumstances" or "we're just using these words for fun and if you're too stupid to understand what they mean, clearly they mean something else." They're handled like melee/ranged combat, meaning unless a specific rule in the remaining text says to treat them differently than melee/ranged combat, they're not. Meaning Combat Sense works just fine against them since they are, in fact, being handled like melee/ranged combat.

[McDougle]

So everyone thinks, that Combat Sense should always be applied to Dodge?

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Yakuza who don't assume all attackers will be wearing armor?? Amazing!

Hmm, he did say shotguns. I think using shot (works like flechette) in smoothbore weapons is pretty standard. Tough luck for the shifter though.

They were using and Auto Assault 16 with flechette ammo. I was only hit because they were using spray and pray tactics with me, so even if they hit me with one succes only, it was going to hurt anyway.

So everyone thinks, that Combat Sense should always be applied to Dodge?

Yes!