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[cryptoknight]

Just curious... Breast Implants have a listed capacity of 2.

Just what modifications can be placed in breast implants?

Ultrasound seems a good choice... not so sure about Thermographic Vision... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

yeah, they need 2 capacity if you put them in a cybertorso (or in any other cyberlimb XD)

[Sengir]

Just curious... Breast Implants have a listed capacity of 2.

No, they have a Capacity of [2]. The square brackets mean they take up 2 Capacity when installed in a cyberlimb and don't offer capacity.

[Hamsnibit]

Cyberglands with acid as noted in the example.
Nanohives are generally a really good idea too.

[unsound]

Cybergland: Milk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Warlordtheft]

Cybergland: Milk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

It does a body good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

[CanRay]

If you have a Cybertorso, they take up capacity instead of essence.

[Hida Tsuzua]

Interestingly enough, you can actually put them in any cyberlimb. Heck you can put two pairs of breasts on your obvious cyberskull. Now that's an odd mental picture.

[Sengir]

Now that's an odd mental picture.

A cyberpenis takes up 1 Capacity, that means four fit into a skull... http://www.belch.com/blog/wp-content/uploa...11/zoidberg.jpg

Or maybe something Mohawk-ish? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[CanRay]

Interestingly enough, you can actually put them in any cyberlimb. Heck you can put two pairs of breasts on your obvious cyberskull. Now that's an odd mental picture.

Great, now we have RL Hentai Sims and BTLs in Shadowrun.

[Udoshi]

Just curious... Breast Implants have a listed capacity of 2.

You have it backwards. They take up capacity instead of essence if you choose, not GIVE you capacity to use.

Also Breast Implants are really covered under Biosculpting. The cyberware one is a really freaky piece of ware for people who want to be able to change the size of their rack on the fly.

[Neurosis]

Cybergland: Milk. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

Tengu milk? (Probably NSFW)

[Mäx]

The cyberware one is a really freaky piece of ware for people who want to be able to change the size of their rack on the fly.

Comes very handy when you have to change your look fast, especially if you also have cyber eyes and fiberoptic hair(my main character build has all of these) so you can also change your eye and hair colour.

[Udoshi]

I would agree with that. At first I didn't get why, and then I started to look over it when making an infiltrator/face. Its definitely useful, if you are willing to get that kind of work done on you.

[CanRay]

Especially with Nanopaste disguises.

"I told you guys to find a Hispanic woman with a A-Cup, not a Black woman with a DD-Cup!" "I'm from Africa, you son of a..." "Call PR, I just got my foot in my mouth up to my knee again."

[ravensmuse]

And we wonder sometimes why it's hard to attract female gamers to this game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And we wonder sometimes why it's hard to attract female gamers to this game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

No Doubt... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Yerameyahu]

I'm not sure why you'd expect the cyber capacity version to be quick-change; do the rules say so? Maybe it's Modular. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
If they were really clever, they'd be simply resizable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reebok_Pump)!

[ShadowJackal]

And we wonder sometimes why it's hard to attract female gamers to this game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

Yeah, no comment.

[Midas]

A cyberpenis takes up 1 Capacity, that means four fit into a skull... http://www.belch.com/blog/wp-content/uploa...11/zoidberg.jpg
Or maybe something Mohawk-ish? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Such a character must like being called a dickhead ...

[CanRay]

And we wonder sometimes why it's hard to attract female gamers to this game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

No Doubt... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Yeah, no comment.

I'm sorry I'm male and thought that would be a great way to handle a quick disguise change!

Anyone else like to kick me?

[Mäx]

I'm not sure why you'd expect the cyber capacity version to be quick-change; do the rules say so? Maybe it's Modular. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
If they were really clever, they'd be simply resizable (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reebok_Pump)!

Resizable is exactly what they are, thats precisely why their good for quick change of apperance.

[Faraday]

Tengu milk? (Probably NSFW)

NSFS, frankly

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

A cyberpenis takes up 1 Capacity, that means four fit into a skull... http://www.belch.com/blog/wp-content/uploa...11/zoidberg.jpg

Or maybe something Mohawk-ish? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

This is a pretty old joke, I think the number of penises you can have in your body gets pretty high...

[Stahlseele]

And we wonder sometimes why it's hard to attract female gamers to this game (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

we do? O.o

[ShadowJackal]

I slept on this and decided I'd comment.

I think that this is one of those times when its crystal clear a man wrote something concerning a woman. Breasts are insanely intimate and personal, plainly put, they are not a fashion accessory. I find it extremely difficult to believe that most women will be able to get past the emotional responses concerning breast augmentation to simply use them as a vessel to create some advantage. They are not pockets, they are not a purse, they are breasts.

Women opt for breast reconstruction and augmentation for many reasons, many of them insanely personal. Breasts are integral to a woman's sexuality in many cases, in other words, they often make a woman feel like a woman. They aren't fun bags, they aren't a "Rack" and they certainly aren't some accessory you can toss a bad excuse for /d/ porn in.

Between this and the dragon birthing in Conspiracy Theories I'm pretty disgusted with things right now. Shadowrun needs some female perspective. Stat.

[Hamsnibit]

I slept on this and decided I'd comment.

I think that this is one of those times when its crystal clear a man wrote something concerning a woman. Breasts are insanely intimate and personal, plainly put, they are not a fashion accessory. I find it extremely difficult to believe that most women will be able to get past the emotional responses concerning breast augmentation to simply use them as a vessel to create some advantage. They are not pockets, they are not a purse, they are breasts.

Women opt for breast reconstruction and augmentation for many reasons, many of them insanely personal. Breasts are integral to a woman's sexuality in many cases, in other words, they often make a woman feel like a woman. They aren't fun bags, they aren't a "Rack" and they certainly aren't some accessory you can toss a bad excuse for /d/ porn in.

Between this and the dragon birthing in Conspiracy Theories I'm pretty disgusted with things right now. Shadowrun needs some female perspective. Stat.

You are saying this from your personal point of view.
This setting and its people are 70 years in the future and sexual content is a thing which is used in burger commercial and generally totally overused.
The definition of intimacy is and always will be fluctuating and therefore i think cyberbrast should have their place in SR.

When im able to replace my dick with something which can support an infinite erection and if this is what i want where is the problem with cyberbreasts?

Genitals are overrated anyways.

[Stahlseele]

Why would there be a difference for women in getting cyber-tits in comparison to getting cyber-arms or eyes or anything else basically?

[ShadowJackal]

You are saying this from your personal point of view.
This setting and its people are 70 years in the future and sexual content is a thing which is used in burger commercial and generally totally overused.
The definition of intimacy is and always will be fluctuating and therefore i think cyberbrast should have their place in SR.

When im able to replace my dick with something which can support an infinite erection and if this is what i want where is the problem with cyberbreasts?

Genitals are overrated anyways.

No. I'm saying that from a *WOMAN'S* point of view. Until you are a female, I'm sorry, but I refuse to accept your opinion on the intimacy level of the female genitalia now or 60 years in the future in a game. You are not a woman, you do not, and will not understand. My perspective may be my own, but trust me when I say it is not unique.

Breast Augmentation Support Groups would not exist if they simply were a purse that women wanted the ability to change on whim. I won't comment on your genitalia because I am not a man and have no right to do so.

Why would there be a difference for women in getting cyber-tits in comparison to getting cyber-arms or eyes or anything else basically?

There is a sexual and intimate connection with breasts. Again. Not a vessel, they are a sexual and intimate object that defines femininity.

Also, please do not refer to them as "Tits", it is insanely disrespectful. They are breasts.

[Udoshi]

Why would there be a difference for women in getting cyber-tits in comparison to getting cyber-arms or eyes or anything else basically?

Frankly, for the same reason that men don't line up to get their dick chopped off and replaced with metal.

I slept on this and decided I'd comment.

I think that this is one of those times when its crystal clear a man wrote something concerning a woman. Breasts are insanely intimate and personal, plainly put, they are not a fashion accessory. I find it extremely difficult to believe that most women will be able to get past the emotional responses concerning breast augmentation to simply use them as a vessel to create some advantage. They are not pockets, they are not a purse, they are breasts.

Women opt for breast reconstruction and augmentation for many reasons, many of them insanely personal. Breasts are integral to a woman's sexuality in many cases, in other words, they often make a woman feel like a woman. They aren't fun bags, they aren't a "Rack" and they certainly aren't some accessory you can toss a bad excuse for /d/ porn in.

Between this and the dragon birthing in Conspiracy Theories I'm pretty disgusted with things right now. Shadowrun needs some female perspective. Stat.

While I am often the the Raw-Fu book ninja around here, sometimes its nice to have more of a real world viewpoint beyond what the rules provide. Tehana, thank you for being the voice of reason.

I want to point out that Tehana brings up a pretty relevant point before all the naysayers jump on it.

[Yerameyahu]

The penile implant is in the book; done. If anything, I've seen significant more threads discussing novel uses for *that* than any mention of cyberbreasts (disrespected by ignoring?). The fact is that breast implants exist today, so there's no reason they wouldn't exist in the future. And a cyberarm or cyber*skull* is pretty personal.

Judge slang terms on the grounds of rudeness or impropriety, but don't act as if they can't (or shouldn't) exist. You mentioned 'insanely' a couple times, and it's getting convincing. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) There are so many things to get tweaked about in SR: to choose breast implants and salty language is aiming so low.

I'd bet that, in the world of outcast nutball criminals for hire, someone in RL has 'used' breast implants before. The fake pregnant belly is a classic trick, and what could be more intimate and personal than that? Humans (not 'men') are callous and inventive. Despite the massive 'disrespect', males still get kicked in the crotch by people seeking a combat advantage. I don't think anyone said the norm would be every female in SR (in your words, "most women") walking around with resizable mammaries, but it's silly to say that no one ever would.

[Stahlseele]

There is a sexual and intimate connection with penises. Again. Not a vessel, they are a sexual and intimate object that defines masculinity.

Also. Please do not refer to them as "Dicks", it is insanely disrespectful. They are penises.


Furthermore, judging from all the viagra and penis pump and enlargement spam around, i'd hazard a guess that many would, indeed, get a metal penis, as long as it feels good.
What would i give for a bit more control! Getting an errection while doing a presentation or something similar is fucking uncomfortable and embarassing!
Furthermore, being able to switch off the sensations from there would make it much less dangerous to get into brawls and the such. Kick to the Groin. Who cares, mine's off!

And don't forget bragging. Yours is how long? I can make mine more or less any length and circumfence desired be the women! And i can make it taste like chocolate! And i can punch holes through beer cans with it!

[ShadowJackal]

Wow.

Look, you can take whatever you want from my words. All I'm saying is that there is a considerable male perspective problem with this topic and many topics in the game, and I do have an issue with the terminology used in this thread. I understand I'm playing in the boy's sandbox but really, you should consider a female perspective from time to time. And hell, maybe if you were a little more considerate there'd be more women that wanted to be involved, but after lurking on here for a year or two and posting for a few months now I can understand why an opinion like mine isn't welcome.

Make your game whatever you want, but don't disrespect my perspective on something I live with every day.

[Yerameyahu]

I think it's important to separate out the several issues under discussion, though. There's word choice, there's implicit favoring of one perspective, there's augmentation body issues (as noted, it's a exotic item, not a normal one), and they're all distinct. It's not helpful to lump them all together into a mystical femininity that 'men can never understand' (yet all women agree on).

So, how do those separate issues fall out? Is the main problem the existence of (many) terms which are disrespectful (though I'm not sure how 'breasts' became so privileged)? Is the main problem the existence of an exotic and extreme cyberware mod (and its direct counterpart for males)? Is the main problem that DS doesn't give equal time to joking about one or the other (I really think I've seen much more about the penile option)? Other?

[Blade]

I understand what you're saying but from some talks I had with my ex-gf and a few other girls, I think though you probably have a better vision of the female perspective than us, you probably can't talk for all women.

[ShadowJackal]

I think it's important to separate out the several issues under discussion, though. There's word choice, there's implicit favoring of one perspective, there's augmentation body issues (as noted, it's a exotic item, not a normal one), and they're all distinct. It's not helpful to lump them all together into a mystical femininity that 'men can never understand' (yet all women agree on).

I understand what you're saying but from some talks I had with my ex-gf and a few other girls, I think though you probably have a better vision of the female perspective than us, you probably can't talk for all women.

I'm sorry if I sounded absolute. Personal flaw. There are many perspectives, but the only ones that are relevant to this discussion, in my opinion, are female. There are, and will be women who do not feel intimately connected to their genitalia. I'm sure in the Sixth World this will be at least as prevalent if not more so. I do believe that this will be the exception rather than the norm though.

My issue with this thread is that of perspective, word usage and disrespect for female view. Mine is my own, but is that of a woman. I do not speak for all women and never will, but I'm the only one that's spoken up from what I can tell. From my perspective, I am appalled. There are issues that need to be taken into consideration when discussing female sexuality and gender identity. It's not a subject that is easy to take lightly, especially in the manner this thread has presented. There's a distinct level of disrespect.

I can joke as much as the next person about anything, including sexuality, and breasts, but the issue here is that it has been done in a very disrespectful manner.

[Yerameyahu]

Can you be specific about any of those points? It seems practical, if not necessarily correct, to proceed with the assumptions that the two gender options are male/female, and that 'real' females are the ones who "feel intimately connected to their genitalia"; so let's go with those assumptions.

Given that, the problem is specifically the idea that cyberware mammaries would a) exist, and b) be used in any utilitarian way? (Remembering that this augmentation is only for the exceptional/abnormal females, by our assumptions.) Additionally, the problem is that posters here aren't referring to that idea with the respect it deserves?

[ShadowJackal]

Can you be specific about any of those points? It seems practical, if not necessarily correct, to proceed with the assumptions that the two gender options are male/female, and that 'real' females are the ones who "feel intimately connected to their genitalia"; so let's go with those assumptions.

Given that, the problem is specifically the idea that cyberware mammaries would a) exist, and b) be used in any utilitarian way? (Remembering that this augmentation is only for the exceptional/abnormal females, by our assumptions.) Additionally, the problem is that posters here aren't referring to that idea with the respect it deserves?

I never said anything about "real" females and never referred to anyone who would want such a thing to not be abnormal. I simply do not think it would be something most with female genitalia would desire or choose lightly.

[thorya]

Not trying to put words in tehana's mouth, but I believe the problem is that society is inherently biased in the favor of men. Male sexuality and female sexuality are not viewed the same. Women don't judge men on their penis size, the way men judge women on their breast size. (the only people that really care about penis size, especially length, are men) This means that you can't draw an analogy between writing about penis augmentation and breast augmentation. Because the writers are male and writing from a male perspective in a society where that is the accepted norm, they are going to represent a male perspective and not even realize that there is another one. When you describe penis augmentations, you're describing male power fantasies. When you describe female breast augmentation, you're still describing male power fantasies. It's the same reason that simply including scantily clad, muscle men in comics doesn't make comic book representations of women fair and balanced. It's the same reason that sexist jokes about women offend women more than sexist jokes about men (for one there are way fewer sexist jokes about men), because the sexist jokes about women reinforce hidden prejudices and men expect women to laugh at themselves and implicitly accept the humor being found in them being inferior.

It would be like trying to draw an analogy between cracker and nigger as racist terms and claiming that one is the same as the other. One is more offensive, because it was invented by a social structure that exploited one group to the benefit of the other. If you think they are the same because both make fun of someone different than you, then you are not aware that there are more perspectives than your own.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Well, you dont judge on penis size because you normally dont see the size of ones package, whereas the breast size is normally visible to bystanders (except in a cold winter or with a burka etc.)

[Hamsnibit]

Well, you dont judge on penis size because you normally dont see the size of ones package, whereas the breast size is normally visible to bystanders (except in a cold winter or with a burka etc.)

Well, you just have to pay proper attention at the right time and you would be surprised ...

[ShadowJackal]

Well, you dont judge on penis size because you normally dont see the size of ones package, whereas the breast size is normally visible to bystanders (except in a cold winter or with a burka etc.)

I've always wondered how men would feel about breasts if the size of their testicles were visible for all to see through clothing and if females chose men as mates based on their size and shape.

[Yerameyahu]

You did say such women weren't the norm, tehana. I do wish you'd respond to the substantive questions I posed, though. :/

Here are some more: is it okay for men to dress in drag? Is it okay for women to pose as men? Is it okay to do each with the benefit of a 'disguise' (padded bra/etc.)? Is it okay for someone in 2070 to use a high-tech version of that (the breast cyberware), for that purpose (and whether that someone is 'male' or 'female')? I don't think the use case presented initially in this thread is ridiculous (that is, solely for ridicule); it seems reasonable that some small number of people would use this option as another disguise tool in their arsenal (less extreme than Jigsaw Skull, for sure). After all, it's not only females who are allowed to take this augmentation (nor is the penile implant male-only, though it has very limited disguise uses).

--
I don't see how that would change how men feel about breasts; instead, it might change how men feel about nuts. However, it is extremely common in the gay community to treat dicks (and the whole 'package') in *exactly* the way breasts are treated. (Go check out Arnold Zwicky's blog.) So, we don't really have to speculate, we can see it today IRL.

[ShadowJackal]

You did say such women weren't the norm, tehana. I do wish you'd respond to the substantive questions I posed, though. :/

Here are some more: is it okay for men to dress in drag? Is it okay for women to pose as men? Is it okay to do each with the benefit of a 'disguise' (padded bra/etc.)? Is it okay for someone in 2070 to use a high-tech version of that (the breast cyberware), for that purpose (and whether that someone is 'male' or 'female')? I don't think the use case presented initially in this thread is ridiculous (that is, solely for ridicule); it seems reasonable that some small number of people would use this option as another disguise tool in their arsenal (less extreme than Jigsaw Skull, for sure). After all, it's not only females who are allowed to take this augmentation (nor is the penile implant male-only, though it has very limited disguise uses).

--
I don't see how that would change how men feel about breasts; instead, it might change how men feel about nuts. However, it is extremely common in the gay community to treat dicks (and the whole 'package') in *exactly* the way breasts are treated. (Go check out Arnold Zwicky's blog.) So, we don't really have to speculate, we can see it today IRL.

Norm was used in exchange for majority. I should have used the term majority for the sake of clarity. I am having a hard time reading the questions that you are posing as anything more than bait to further construe an argument. I'm sorry if that is not your intended purpose but often online things come off as disconnected due to the lack of human face to face interaction.

In short, I fully support transgender rights, I have several very close loved ones that are TG, and feel that is one of the most important reasons to have things like cyber genitals in Shadowrun.

I understand what you are saying about the gay community but the fact is that male genitalia is not "On Display" effectively when you are out in your everyday life. Tight fitting pants can surely expose general shape and size but breasts are effectively at eye level and fairly hard to disguise. There is a similarity between the two but breasts are by far more exposed and exploited than male genitals.

[Yerameyahu]

You were right to do so: majority is the norm, by definition. I wasn't saying you denied transgender rights, or marginalized the non-majority women you described.

It's not a contest of who's more exposed; I was just offering a similar cultural practice practice as an example that might inform our discussion. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) (I dunno if I agree that (most) breasts are terribly difficult to disguise, especially to the standard of 'very tight pants'. I agree that the culture isn't one that makes such disguise the current norm, though.)

I guess what you call 'baiting', I call 'teasing apart the question into chunks I can understand'. :/ I'm having trouble because your points so far are pretty sweeping generalities, and to me, vague. Insofar as I understand them, I think everyone agrees: it's a patriarchal society, the 'male' perspective is the default, etc. But that's everywhere, every day. I'm just trying to nail down the specific issues that disgusted you in this thread; you responded strongly.

[Xenefungus]

To get substance back into this: Cyberbreasts don't give any bonus dice to disguise tests, and neither does implanted hair. So by RAW, they should not have any effect on those checks. That is why i always thought of them as "cosmetic" ware, without any 'real' advantages.

But it seems some dumpshockers beg to differ here. Do you have houserules in place for this? Are the costs of those items increased now that they offer more then they were supposed to? Or do you simply handwave the effects they have in your game?

[Yerameyahu]

Xenefungus, generic disguise 'accessories' do give a situation bonus on the test, IIRC. "Plausible supporting evidence" is the best guess, but perhaps "Character has the right look" in some cases. But you're right: the game can't be played entirely on listed numeric effects. Some things just make sense.

[Hamsnibit]

To get substance back into this: Cyberbreasts don't give any bonus dice to disguise tests, and neither does implanted hair. So by RAW, they should not have any effect on those checks. That is why i always thought of them as "cosmetic" ware, without any 'real' advantages.

But it seems some dumpshockers beg to differ here. Do you have houserules in place for this? Are the costs of those items increased now that they offer more then they were supposed to? Or do you simply handwave the effects they have in your game?

Sometimes they can be a plainly neccessary if you want to copy several people. You can flatten cyberbreasts down to the size of a male chest, combined with other disguise tricks you can emulate several people male, female anything in between or combined in SR.
You simply might be female and like to enlargen you chest for your partner because it doubles the fun in bed where it otherwise would be impractical, god knows.
If you simply want breasts you would go for a much cheaper and easier biosculpting.

And no i dont see any reason why they would provide dice pool bonuses.

[CanRay]

Actually, I always saw Cyberbreasts as "The New Breast Implants" (And, yes, women do want those), as well as an option for Transgendered People.

But, hey, I'm just a Man that knows a few Transgendered people trying to transition, and Women that have gotten or want breast implants as well as Women who hate them.

[Mäx]

To get substance back into this: Cyberbreasts don't give any bonus dice to disguise tests, and neither does implanted hair. So by RAW, they should not have any effect on those checks. That is why i always thought of them as "cosmetic" ware, without any 'real' advantages.

But it seems some dumpshockers beg to differ here. Do you have houserules in place for this? Are the costs of those items increased now that they offer more then they were supposed to? Or do you simply handwave the effects they have in your game?

For the scenario i out-lined before, i dont really see it being a disguise test but more of a con test and for that changing the size of your bosom and colour of your hair is an easy +3 dice, posibly much more if you can convince you GM.
After all your not trying to disguise as someone,but just to to look as differed as you quickly can from the picture they have of you.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

that would still be a disguise test, just to obscure your original appearance and not to impersonate someone (e.g. another form you can specialize in)

[Yerameyahu]

Either way, we understand that the numbers don't capture everything. Changing your physical appearance by whatever methods can be understood as *required* for the Disguise test itself; you can't just say, 'I roll disguise' and miraculously change. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Hamsnibit]

Convincing people that you are female without any traces of a bust while showing a profound mustache is the pornomancers domain.

[Stahlseele]

Convincing people that you are female without any traces of a bust while showing a profound mustache is the pornomancers domain.

Discworld Dwarves come to mind.

[Xenefungus]

For the scenario i out-lined before, i dont really see it being a disguise test but more of a con test and for that changing the size of your bosom and colour of your hair is an easy +3 dice, posibly much more if you can convince you GM.

Wait, shouldn't we then get bonus dice to con (seduction) just as well? Pornomancer would be happy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Speaking of it, would multiples stack?

I think that a Centaur with double Shiva arms (12 possible cyberlimbs altogether; lets go for bulk mod also) would be able to get hundreds of Cyberbreast implants quite easily.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

you only get a DP bonus if the target likes big breasts -> +2 romantically attracted

For disguise, you should get the bonus every time when you go from flat to busty or the other way, because it changes your appearance

[Yerameyahu]

I think you're being silly, Xenefungus, but that's probably *why* there's no listed bonus. Tastes vary, context matters, etc. The mechanical bonus (or lack thereof) is simply not that important. It's about roleplaying.

[Hamsnibit]

Thats depends on what kind of table you got.
Mileage may vary.

[Mäx]

that would still be a disguise test, just to obscure your original appearance and not to impersonate someone (e.g. another form you can specialize in)

Disguise test makes no sense what so ever, if the character is just changing the settings of their implants, thats is just a simple absolute change in the characters look.
After that you just use con to get the ones looking for you to believe your not you.

[Yerameyahu]

That's just a muddy area between the skills, Mäx; nothing can really be done about that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Technically, changing your appearance is the domain of Disguise. You could construe *anything* as Con if you rationalize hard enough, hehe.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

well, in combination with fiber-optic hair, color-changing chlothing and altskin w/ shade&shifter mod it would be a disguise check.

[Mäx]

well, in combination with fiber-optic hair, color-changing chlothing and altskin w/ shade&shifter mod it would be a disguise check.

Not to me.
I kinda think that character actually has to do something for there to be a test, as the test is for seeing how well a character succeeds in doing what she tries to do.
There just isn't really anything that the characters skill would affect when using those to change ones appearance, unless your trying to make yourself to look like some specific person .

[Yerameyahu]

Well, you're wrong, as far as the limited and imperfect rules available to us go. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) In an ideal game, perhaps there would be a distinction there. In SR4, all those chosen changes and tactics represent the skillful application of Disguise knowledge.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

Sometimes they can be a plainly neccessary if you want to copy several people. You can flatten cyberbreasts down to the size of a male chest, combined with other disguise tricks you can emulate several people male, female anything in between or combined in SR.

This is actually an interesting idea, a true transgender character who can pose as women or men at a whim - with functional parts, even, at least - at present - if he starts out as a woman. However, I'm thinking there is really no reason not to have cybergenitalia for women, too, even a uterus, as a medicinal implant to help conception or carrying to term, so basically you could take a neutered clone and turn it into anything you wish.

For the disguise deal some more cosmetic cyber or bioware would be needed to slightly change the frame and posture, and add or subtract a bit of shape in other places.

@Tehana, and I'm spoilering parts of this so that only people who really want to can read it:

You're probably right about the whole (dis)respect issue. However, railing against it in general on an internet forum - and this forum in particular - is of limited use - because you're surrounded by people who probably say about themselves "Of course I (don't dis-) respect women", the validity of which you are challenging. Also, they will accuse you of presenting us with your gut reaction as the female point of view.

[ Spoiler ]

Subjectivity disclaimer: Experience and analysis, including extrapolation, NOT scientific study!
So, of course I'm one of them. I respect women very much, but sexual objectification is still a key feature of my relationship with them. Understand that men are superficially aroused by projections, a lot of them somehow stroking our ego, consciously or unconsciously. For example, most if not all porn is a tool for projection, and the - mind you, disgusting - humiliation aspects are in it to stroke our egos even more. At the time when we completely respect a woman, and know her intimately, too, she often loses a good bit of sexual attraction, and having both is pretty hard. So when I respect her and therefore have to deal with her rationally then I also have to deal with the fact that my sexual projections of her are so stupid. I believe this happens after actually having sex with her, because before that I can still disconnect: I am spending time with a respected friend (I do value women as friends very much), but my desires are projected literally into a different person - or even a sort of object, because it has no real personality. I don't know this person yet, so I can project. Once I know that person, too, the projection is exposed and doesn't work anymore. If at that moment there is nothing ELSE to keep me interested then boredom will set in, and if I don't really love this woman, I can then either chose to continue respecting her as a friend asexually, or to disrespect her as a someone who now can't even offer me physical attraction. This hasn't actually happened to me (the disrespecting part), but I can understand and empathize with these feelings. And do note that I AM narrowing my argument for poignancy. Real people never exactly fit the model, but I believe I'm not far from the truth in many cases, even if they are really a lot more complex.
And that also doesn't mean that there aren't even men out there who really don't respect women (knowingly or not), or really think that women are inferior. Unfortunately this is a sad fact.

I'm saying that even men who actually respect women very much will have problems doing so in every respect (duh), because objectification is such a large part of male sexuality.
Women, on the other hand, are in my experience less prone to "using" projections for sexual attraction, they rather fall victim to them when actually falling in love - at least as far as the acute stupid part of love is concerned. That's the reason they have fewer problems with respect both with or without sex, but rather more problems avoiding assholes.

What I think might work on this board is actually calling out individuals about individual statements: What were you thinking when you wrote that?

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

For the disguise deal some more cosmetic cyber or bioware would be needed to slightly change the frame and posture, and add or subtract a bit of shape in other places.

Check "False Front" in Augmentation, p.68, probably in combination with chameleon skin.

[Sengir]

I've always wondered how men would feel about breasts if the size of their testicles were visible for all to see through clothing and if females chose men as mates based on their size and shape.

It used to be that way (well, at least the display of genitalia;) ). Until the time of the French Revolution men wore extremely tight trousers, made from the finest possible cloth to show their wealth. Before that men wore sometimes enormous codpieces, not as revealing but quite a testament to how men used to show off with their supposed endowment (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Regarding the idea of changing such a fundamental aspect of oneself, I'd argue there are far more radical options. Take the Cyberskull for example, having one means you do not have a face any longer -- sure, it might look like your old self, but it remains nothing more than a shell which might as well look totally different. Or an Attention Coprocessor, there is a chip in you which literally tells your brain what to think about and what to ignore, how creepy is that?

[Stahlseele]

Eyes. Windows to the Soul.
Squishy Parts. Out with them.
24/7 live action TV!

[snowRaven]

Regarding the idea of changing such a fundamental aspect of oneself, I'd argue there are far more radical options. Take the Cyberskull for example, having one means you do not have a face any longer -- sure, it might look like your old self, but it remains nothing more than a shell which might as well look totally different. Or an Attention Coprocessor, there is a chip in you which literally tells your brain what to think about and what to ignore, how creepy is that?

Yeah, having one's face ripped out and replaced will be a major thing for most people - just ask anyone who's had their face destroyed and reconstructed.

As for the sensitive issue of cybergenitalia...

Yes, many women out there would doubtless have a hard time replacing their breasts - for whatever reason. The fact remains, though, that there are also many women who would replace them, if it was cheaper and fairly riskfree, and didn't disrupt natural function. The ability to alter breast size at a whim, while not something the majority of women might choose, can be a very valuable ability in the world of shadowrunning though.

Many men are breast-fixated, and easily distracted by prominent breasts - this can serve as a distraction, as a way of hiding (fewer men would remember her face - sad but true), or as a way of getting a social edge over many men (they are more lilely to be embarrased, become lecherous, be distracted, etc). It can also be used to 'escape' warrants or pursuers - if people think they are looking for a woman with really big breasts, or a flatchested one, they are less likely to look closely at those who do not fit that description. This goes for men and women both.

That said, even today it is more or less 'norm' for women to 'use' their breasts (for lack of a better term, I know it sounds crude...) using padded bras, push-ups, flattening sports bras, and revealing necklines, bulky sweaters--even cleavage make-up (rarer, but it exists), to acheive certain effects. It is not really that big a step to 'use' breast implants that can change size, once you've accepted augmetations or if you already were planning to go for implants (for whatever reason)

Penile implants aren't quite as versatile, though every bit as sensitive a concept to many men as breasts implants are to many women. Few guys I know would choose to have it 'chopped off' just to gain a few inches.

As for fixation...there are many people out there, of all genders and all sexual orientations, who have fixations over breast size and penis size. Granted, men in general are more fixated on size regarding both - but I have known many women, gays, lesbians and even a few transgendered with similar fixations, and/or immature sense of humor regarding genitals.

I do think all of the genital augmentations have a very real and solid place in SR, though - the SR world is more open when it comes to sex, and more fixated on it - for good and often for bad. Mutilating and rebuilding your genitals is an excellent concept for the dark, dystopian cyberpunk future that is shadowrun, where humanity is a commodity to be sacrificed for a small edge or reputation.

[bibliophile20]

If nothing else, on the really sleezy/disturbing end, there'll be a demand for those implants for bunraku puppets and joytoys, to allow for further customization for the preference of the customer, and the consent of the puppet or joytoy isn't something the syndicates who would do such things loose much sleep over. So, on that level, these implants do have a place in the setting, if, albeit a very uncomfortable one.

Heck, of the characters in my game, I can't think of any that have gotten these implants voluntarily; all of them are former bunraku puppets rescued by one of my more hooding-happy PCs; I ended up creating "Bunraku Standard" and "Bunraku Deluxe" cyberware suites when I realized that all of these puppets had pretty much the same cyberware, and those savings in cost would be something the syndicates would want... and then also made selling the cyber after freeing the puppets a much more risky--and morally dubious--proposition, which also felt appropriate for the setting.

[Stahlseele]

As i said further upthread, i'd get one.
Not because of size, 2 hands width is quite enough, thank you very much, but because of control mostly.

[Eimi]

Personally, I still think there should be a cyber-vagina on the cosmetic cyberware chart alongside the cyber-penis. I suppose there's any number of reasons it wasn't introduced when the cyber-penis was, or the decades since then, but I can't think of any particularly good ones.

Hell, toss in a cyber-anus, too. Why? I don't know! Why not!

(The most compelling answer would be: if your character is of the 'was a ruined burnt husk of a human torso' bent and got rebuilt with cybertorso included, rebuilt cyber-genitalia is quite in-character to want')

[bibliophile20]

@Eimi: Agreed. And I'd include those for the same Essence costs and Availabilities as the other cyber, and with that, be able to stat a truly transgendered character. (Betan hermaphrodites, anyone? Bel Thorne would make for an excellent runner... and I've already statted out an SR4 Admiral Naismith, just for the lolz...)

[Yerameyahu]

Don't forget you're talking about cyber, though. It's all fake; get bioware if you want real parts.

[Hamsnibit]

Its alot cheaper too.
Breast/Penile implant : 3.000Y
Minor Biomod : 100-2.000Y
Perfetly fully working, no drawbacks and 100% organic if this is what you want.

Btw sex change is 20.000Y and you are fully functionable and 100% real. Former men would even be able to carry children if you throw in a genefix too.
Just to show how advanced the medical possibilites in SR are.
And it goes the other way round.

[Yerameyahu]

Right. So, getting cyber is an actual choice, and in many ways an inferior one. That makes it easier for us to speculate about the actual customers for it.

[bibliophile20]

Like I suggested up thread: I bet the primary customer for cyberbreasts (by units purchased) are syndicates implanting their bunraku puppets and joytoys. It's cheaper, it's "real enough", and when a puppet dies or retires, they can pull the 'ware and implant it in a new puppet.

[unsound]

Wait, women don't judge men based on penis size? Excuse me while I go laugh my ass off. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

Okay, I'm done now. While men are frequently crude and make obscene remarks about a woman's breasts, and we love to gawk at particularly impressive specimens, I've never known any guy to reject an otherwise attractive woman because her breasts were too small. On the other hand, plenty of women I know have broken up with guys because their package wasn't up to snuff. One woman wouldn't even date a guy if he wasn't packing at least seven inches. Hell, penis discrimination actually makes more sense than breast discrimination since it's directly correlated with sexual pleasure for some women, whereas a large rack is pretty much just for show.

Let's face it. Being a woman sucks. Being a man sucks. Doesn't matter what you look like or who you are, someone somewhere is gonna discriminate against you for some reason. Suck it up and move along, life is too short. And if you can't, get an implant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Midas]

@tehana

Sorry if the base frat-boy jocularity of this thread offended you, some of these lads (myself included) don't get out enough. As to the slang involved, I am afraid that sometimes you have to take the rough with the smooth, especially on internet forums. I for one am not a fan of political correctness (I believe it reinforces rather than reduces prejudice), and I am afraid I tend to sling a lot of slang for both female and male genetalia on the rare occasions I enter into discussion on either.

However, despite the tone of some of the comments I will also point out there were some legitimate points of discussion (cyber breasts *costing* not adding 2 capacity, whether the ability to alter breast size should aid Disguise tests etc).

It was brave of you to let us know you took offence at some of the comments, I am sure I can speak for all here when I say no hard feelings.

[Midas]

And before any wag jumps in, pun not intended.

[CanRay]

Let's face it. Being a woman sucks. Being a man sucks. Doesn't matter what you look like or who you are, someone somewhere is gonna discriminate against you for some reason. Suck it up and move along, life is too short. And if you can't, get an implant. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Life sucks. Life sucks even worse in Shadowrun, but who cares, there's Porn BTLs that's better than cyberbreasts anyhow! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[Sengir]

Personally, I still think there should be a cyber-vagina on the cosmetic cyberware chart alongside the cyber-penis.

Odd, I just realized that the vagina implant only exists in the German book while the original Augmentation indeed only has the male variety. For those interested in getting one, same stats as the penis.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

What would a retractable Cyber-Penis cost in terms of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) and essence?

[Hamsnibit]

3000Y in Standard quality 0.25 Essence or 1 Capacity avail 5.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

The standard implant from augmentation is NOT retractable ....

[Stahlseele]

Because this Thread would not be complete without it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byDiILrNbM4

[snowRaven]

Right. So, getting cyber is an actual choice, and in many ways an inferior one. That makes it easier for us to speculate about the actual customers for it.

Yeah, those choosing to get cyber-versions would do so based on the extra possibilities that infers - changeable breast size; erection/ejaculation control; sensitivity controls; enhancements; less worry about wear and tear...

'Normal' people looking for a bit of a boost would likely go the bioware route, whereas cyber is more for the freaks or those with special uses in mind.


...and yes, men ARE judged by penis size by many women. However, they aren't judged by every other person they meet on the street, whereas women face breast-size related reactions many times a day.

That said, it is in my experience more common for men to be discriminated on size in the bedroom than for women. So, women are discriminated against in daily life, and men are discriminated against in private situations where they are the most vulnerable. Both suck royally, and men and women both should learn to treat each other with a little more respect...

[Hamsnibit]

The standard implant from augmentation is NOT retractable ....

Where is this written?

[Stahlseele]

Nowhere.
But it's also nowhere written that a Troll can't fly . .

On the other hand: retractable/in/deflateable is, basically, the normal modus operandi of the original equipment . .

[ravensmuse]

First off, I think everyone here could do with a good read of this article. I was trying to get Tehana to link to it all of yesterday's conversation.

A lot of you are going, "hurr hurr, breasts, genitals, stop being silly woman, we're just talking about a game / being funny males to each other" and, well, I want to say that that's fine, but I also want you to realize that doing so kind of excludes people that might not feel comfortable with that kind of discussion - like Tehana. I want to thank the couple of you that have actually apologized and encouraged her to continue posting on this subject; I like seeing when geek guys realize that there are other folks on this board that ain't them. I have a feeling that we have far more lurkers on this board - and a fair number of them of the fairer sex - and I'd like to encourage them to come out and speak about this, and not feel minimized because The Guys are having a discussion.

(This is where I was coming from beforehand when I said, "and we wonder why we can't get more girls into the hobby.")

I'm not asking you to change your opinions out of hand, I'm just trying to get you to realize that what you're saying can make people uncomfortable. Dig?

On the subject at hand, regarding females and augmentation and transfolk and such:

Your genitals, whether or not you realize it, is part of your gender identity. I don't mean your physical sex; I mean the part of your brain that says, "I am X." Talk to a transfolk at some point about how they feel in their bodies, especially if they're pre-op; you'll get all sorts of interesting discussion. I've known some FtMs that bind their breasts down, or MtF that wear chicken cutlets and crotch shapers.

Outside of pure, raw, physical numbers, augmentation, whether cyber or not, is a Big Deal Decision. A character might not think about lopping off their genitals and replacing them with cold hard steel, but I can imagine that there are just as many that it would be a lot of thinking and debating. It ends up becoming part of their gender identity, honestly like any other augmentation, I realize, but there is something special mentally about getting your genitals augmented.

I will again come out with my position that the cosmetic surgery, augmentation, and trans discussion in Augmentation was a welcome thing, and I honestly salute whoever wrote that section. I'm not trans myself (but as Tehana noted, we have friends and close family members that are) and it's good to see something in this hobby that's inclusive, not exclusive.

One final note - as I book it out the door to work - the folks saying that men have it just as hard as women for discrimination blah blah blah? Men aren't the ones that are getting begged online for pictures of their breasts, or coerced into taking naked cell phone pictures for their SOs, or feel uncomfortable going to conventions because of the creepy attention they get, or basically, being the constant center of attention for men. Yeah, women joke about men's penis size - but guys are the ones that are eager to get a woman's clothes off and rate them against whatever fantasy they have in their heads. I'm not saying it's exclusive to them, but you really do need to think about these things.

And with that, I'm late for work....

[Stahlseele]

"and we wonder why we can't get more girls into the hobby."

repeats: we do?

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

Nowhere.
But it's also nowhere written that a Troll can't fly . .

On the other hand: retractable/in/deflateable is, basically, the normal modus operandi of the original equipment . .

Well, i meant truly retractable, not just inflateable - the description only mentions altering the size and erectiopn/ejaculation control.

[Brainpiercing7.6...]

One final note - as I book it out the door to work - the folks saying that men have it just as hard as women for discrimination blah blah blah? Men aren't the ones that are getting begged online for pictures of their breasts, or coerced into taking naked cell phone pictures for their SOs, or feel uncomfortable going to conventions because of the creepy attention they get, or basically, being the constant center of attention for men. Yeah, women joke about men's penis size - but guys are the ones that are eager to get a woman's clothes off and rate them against whatever fantasy they have in their heads. I'm not saying it's exclusive to them, but you really do need to think about these things.

And with that, I'm late for work....

Ok, all these things happen - we as men do them. However, you also have to feel for those nerds who don't get out much except for conventions. Look, it's hard, too, for these people, and if the only women they see regularly happen to be acting in porn movies, what do you expect? So now they see a girl gamer, and they feel empowered because they are on their own turf, and they do things which can come over as creepy.
It's also really hard to avoid, sometimes: For example I went to a LARP once where there was this girl who had a totally awesome succubus costume. And that was just so damn hot, you couldn't stop looking. It wasn't even skimpy at all, there wasn't any cleavage, no short skirt or anything, she was wearing tights and leather armour, it was just very well made and she acted the part. (Including jumping on people and "biting" their throats, and fast, it was positively scary.) So would I be wrong in giving her my attention? I didn't hit on her, or anything, after all, we were all in character all the time, and the only appropriate IC reaction was being scared. But a socially challenged guy might try and then not know where to stop. And then your problems start.

So that being said, I have with some effort convinced my girlfriend to play SR with me, and she half-enthusiastically goes along with it. YES, her character has cyberware breast implants, as she's playing an ex-hooker single mom sam/face who runs in order to give her son the perception that they're middle class. And one of things she was most enthusiastic about was protecting other hookers when the other characters talked about things like hiring hookers to seduce people and then killing them to get rid of evidence. Now that's insensitive of them, right? It led me to believe that SR as a game breeds harsh social darwinism, as people at the very bottom of the food chain generally get little respect, and little consideration.

Anyway... as a powergamer I should never put breast-implants in a character because they have no mechanical benefit, and breast size is fluff. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotate.gif)

[Mäx]

First off, I think everyone here could do with a good read of this article. I was trying to get Tehana to link to it all of yesterday's conversation.

lot of that article and comments just confuse me.
Especially lines like this:
"The number of games with competent female protagonists who wear more than the Victoria’s Secret Angels are few and far between"
But i have admit that maybe i just play wrong kind of games(ie, the kind where you often choose the gender of your character and thus characters of both gender are just as competent)
Or the assumption that only women find the outfits of many females characters in games/comics/movies riduculous, but really what can one do about that, stop playing/reading/watching?

[Blade]

Men aren't the ones that are [...] coerced into taking naked cell phone pictures for their SOs

Coerced might be too strong a word, but I've been.

basically, being the constant center of attention

Been to some places in China where Westerners are what all girls are lusting after (and no, it's not just about getter papers/money), done that. (Though I probably lived it completely differently from the way a woman who lives it everyday in her environment does).

But I agree that women are more victim of sexism than men...
And I think that Tim Minchin expresses the way I feel better than me.

[Yerameyahu]

I was trying to figure out what any of the general status of men and women had to do with tehana's specific reaction to this specific thread, but apparently I was being a bad person by asking questions. I still basically agree with everything said about the general issue (e.g., ravensmuse's post), but I'm still wondering what the relevance is.

[ravensmuse]

...

[ShadowJackal]

After some time for homogenization I think I can better summarize my feelings on the subject.

I do have the choice to get offended, I did choose this, I take responsibility for that. I hold the option and I chose to. That said, I found the overall discussion of this to be offensive due to the disassociation of emotion with an intimate body part. I am a female, and have feelings on my gender and sexuality that have been effected by men. My experiences in the Role Playing hobby have also formed these feelings. It can be very difficult to be a female in this hobby that is often dominated by men. Sexualization is something I've experienced at nearly ever interaction I've had in this hobby and it does get pretty old after awhile. I would say that my experiences aren't unique among my female geek friends. It's very commonplace to become a sexual object in a group of men, whether it be a geek community or not, but it does not make it any less exhausting.

My original point was that there is a great deal linked between genitals and sexuality as well as femininity. From a female perspective I feel that it will be a rarity for someone to make the choice to remove their breasts in favor of cyber breasts. I am positive that there are women that are not connected to their genitalia and would make this choice, but I still feel that in many cases it would not be a choice made lightly. I simply felt that the discussion was lacking in respect and gravity for the topic. That's simply my perspective on this subject, you don't have to agree, I certainly wouldn't expect everyone to.

On the point of transgendered folk, I wanted to share a couple interviews of a model I've grown very interested by. Lea T. She's a Brazilian model that grew up in Italy and was good friends with Riccardo Tisci. After he came to Givenchy (A very influential design house) he asked his friend Lea to be in a campaign for him. The catch? She's transgendered and it has caused quite the stir. She's quickly become one of the most desirable, talked about and prolific models in recent history.

I've found her interviews to be some of the most candid and introspective on the subject of gender identity disorder. I think her candid discussion of her genitals and the connection she has to them is very appropriate to the subject at hand.

This first interview is from Oprah. I know, Oprah. But the first few minutes are very good as is the last minute or so if you don't feel like watching the entire thing.

This second interview is better, but unless you are familiar with a Latin based language you might have issues understanding. Her accent is very thick. But it's good if you want to give it a try, her discussion on the issues she faces as a transgendered woman are heartbreaking to say the least.

Either way, I'm glad this discussion is at least happening, even if everyone isn't agreeing, because at the very least it's being discussed.

[Eimi]

On the point of transgendered folk, I wanted to share a couple interviews of a model I've grown very interested by. Lea T. She's a Brazilian model that grew up in Italy and was good friends with Riccardo Tisci. After he came to Givenchy (A very influential design house) he asked his friend Lea to be in a campaign for him. The catch? She's transgendered and it has caused quite the stir. She's quickly become one of the most desirable, talked about and prolific models in recent history.

I've found her interviews to be some of the most candid and introspective on the subject of gender identity disorder. I think her candid discussion of her genitals and the connection she has to them is very appropriate to the subject at hand.

This first interview is from Oprah. I know, Oprah. But the first few minutes are very good as is the last minute or so if you don't feel like watching the entire thing.

This second interview is better, but unless you are familiar with a Latin based language you might have issues understanding. Her accent is very thick. But it's good if you want to give it a try, her discussion on the issues she faces as a transgendered woman are heartbreaking to say the least.

Either way, I'm glad this discussion is at least happening, even if everyone isn't agreeing, because at the very least it's being discussed.

Just for the record, some of her beliefs are controversial at best and outright rejected as being harmful to members of the trans community at worst. Everyone is free to have their own opinions, of course, but she is by no means an authority or speaking for all (or even close to a majority) of trans women.

(Just to get that disclaimer out there.)

[ShadowJackal]

Just for the record, some of her beliefs are controversial at best and outright rejected as being harmful to members of the trans community at worst. Everyone is free to have their own opinions, of course, but she is by no means an authority or speaking for all (or even close to a majority) of trans women.

(Just to get that disclaimer out there.)

I was unaware. I'd love to read more if you have a link or two or would like to elaborate.

I was simply posting her interviews because I felt her opinion and experience was relevant to the discussion. I didn't want to imply that I felt she was the voice for the TG/TS community. She has a right to be what she wants to be, just like everybody else. I don't know, I'm not part of the trans community beyond close friends and family but I didn't know that it was such a black and white issue where an individual wouldn't be accepted because of their experiences.

[Eimi]

I was unaware. I'd love to read more if you have a link or two or would like to elaborate.

I was simply posting her interviews because I felt her opinion and experience was relevant to the discussion. I didn't want to imply that I felt she was the voice for the TG/TS community. She has a right to be what she wants to be, just like everybody else. I don't know, I'm not part of the trans community beyond close friends and family but I didn't know that it was such a black and white issue where an individual wouldn't be accepted because of their experiences.

I'm not really up for elaboration, to be honest. And I'm not saying SHE isn't accepted, merely that some of her opinions and views on what 'makes' trans people trans, or their mental health status as a result thereof, and soforth, are not so readily or widely accepted. She's welcome and free to her opinions and beliefs without ever risking being accepted by the trans community; being on such a widely viewed public platform as, say, going on Oprah and expressing some of those opinions and beliefs to the not-so-informed viewing public as what seems like fact is where things get slightly more contentious (but still limited to 'she is not an expert on these matters' rather than 'she is not trans').

It's tricky. And this is far too much digression for dumpshock. I'll simply state that I personally haven't/wouldn't have any of my characters have any of the breast/genitalia cyber-replacements or exotic biosculptings without very good reasons, because they will have some profound impacts upon said characters. But I still think they should be available, and are viable character choices.