Naturally limiting magician characters, without it seeming like your picking on them Options

[mraston]

I just ran my first game and I noticed the magician character was constantly "stealing the show". I knew in advance that his stunball would going to cause some problems and gave a few of the grunts a shaman with a decent counterspelling skill, but he just ripped through them one or two shotting a couple of groups.

At other times, Levitate was just used all over the place, even one another character wanted to actually do something (ie: use his gymnastics skill and some of the gear he had bought). One of the guys even said "You've had your turn, let us do something".

So my question was; how do I cap a magicians power without seeming like I'm picking on them, I don't want to just give all grunts high counterspelling and put mana barriers up all over the place (although I do plan for the group to head to Tir Tairngire for their next run).

Also, what are the limits to Mind Control, this spell popped up a few times and was generally used in a thoughtful way, but I ruled out NPC's being controlled to put a bullet in their own head (although I couldn't find any rules to back up my "ruling").

[Yerameyahu]

You can't. Magicians' players will interpret anything up to and including not buying them cookies as persecution. You have to ignore their whining and nerf them to the wall. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Seriously, though: the group has to sit down and state the problem, and explain the adjustments. To many groups, this means increased BGC/coverage, more wards, more awakened opposition (which can be pretty annoying and hurts the mundanes even more).

[TheOOB]

Your thinking about this the wrong way, instead of trying to limit the magician, ask how can you make runs that showcase everyone's skills. Once you start to think about things that way, the problem usually fixes itself. If you have a hacker, give him something to hack, if you have a sniper, give him a long range target to shoot at, if you have a face, give him someone to talk to. You should try to have each run have a situation which is best solved by a specific character, and if you have a player who doesn't have any unique skills or abilities that allow you to do that, help them modify their character to give them a clear role.

Back to the magician. The first thing is to make sure you're actually following the rules. Spells cause drain, make sure they are calculating their drain and drain resistance properly, and recording it on their sheet. Make sure they are applying their wound penalties when they take drain, and their sustaining penalties when they attempt actions with one or more spells going. Don't let First Aid checks go out of hand, there are a lot of penalties that can apply to field medical work(especially on awakened patients), and remind players that performing first aid requires some time, some empty space, and usually makes some noise(also med kits do run out of stuff if they're used too much). Also make sure they know that Hits on a spellcasting rolls are limited by Force(so a force 1 levitate spell is unlikely to lift up a person for example).

The thing is, unless they are way better at making characters than everyone else, a magician shouldn't be overpowering the rest of the party via sorcery. Spells are typically fairly drain intensive, often have difficult tests, and they are also fairly expensive to purchase. They also are not always as good as people give them credit for. Damage spells, even direct damage spells, for example, do notably less damage than firearms. If your team is being outclasses by a single spell, the problem may be that they made poor characters rather than the magician is too powerful.

Mental manipulation spells are kind of a problem, they are too powerful for their drain, and don't have preset limits. However if you make someone do a action that goes agienst their nature, I'd say it's fair to give them another willpower test at a bonus to shake it off.

The real power of a magician is in conjuring, a magician who primary uses sorcery is fairly easy to rein in.

As for limited a magicians power, barriers are fairly common place and any trained combat squad should have some magical support. Remember spells have visual penalties, and don't benefit from electronic vision enhancement, so smoke can really hurt a spellcaster. Also, if you have street magic, note that background counts are not all together uncommon, especially low rank ones.

[mraston]

Your thinking about this the wrong way, instead of trying to limit the magician, ask how can you make runs that showcase everyone's skills. Once you start to think about things that way, the problem usually fixes itself. If you have a hacker, give him something to hack, if you have a sniper, give him a long range target to shoot at, if you have a face, give him someone to talk to. You should try to have each run have a situation which is best solved by a specific character, and if you have a player who doesn't have any unique skills or abilities that allow you to do that, help them modify their character to give them a clear role.

Yeah I thought I had that, I had sneaking bits and climbing bits and hacking bits, but during the sneaking bits the magician would say "Oh I'm going to cast invisibility on you now", or the infiltration bits "I'm going to levitate you there".

Smoke is a great idea!

[Yerameyahu]

the problem may be that they made poor characters rather than the magician is too powerful.

Even if they did, the problem is still that the mage is too powerful (coincidentally).

[Udoshi]

I find that limiting or restricting Overcasting does a lot to cut down on high-end mage abuse and WINstakill direct combat spells.

The best houserule I've found for overcasting changes it thusly: Overcasting is still stun, but removes the 'divide by 2' part of the equation. It means mages can't kill themselves with spells unless they fill up ALL their stun and overflow to physical, but if they are overcasting a high-drain spell (lets say its F/2+3) at force 9, that's going to be 12 drain, which means they are very likely to just fall over after unleashing.

As for control thoughts: That spell series and Slow are two of the most commonly banned spells in the game.

Also make sure to enforce the 'break the concentration' rules for sustaining spells. Make the mage make a test to keep it together under pressure once in a while.

[Raiki]

Also also, keep in mind that the target of a mental manipulation spell gets another resistance roll every (I believe, I'm afb at the moment) [Force] combat rounds. As soon as their total hits exceed the net hits of the spell, they break free. A fact the mage in my game only learned about once the sec guard he'd Control Thoughts'd shot him with his APDS loaded Super Warhawk. That player still bitches about that.


~R~

[Irion]

You can't. Magicians' players will interpret anything up to and including not buying them cookies as persecution.

And the funny thing is, the next posts actually proved this point.

Honestly: The main issue is that magic go more power with every new sourcebook...

And now there are so many ways to get a boost and they are all affected differently by nervs... So this question is really hard to awnser in general...

Vision penalties fuck up the pure mage really nice.
The cybered mage uses cybereyes from the start.

BGC fucks up mages who rely on foci big time. Mages who have filtering metamagic do not care much about it.
Wards annoy mages who rely on sustained spells...

So every one of this mages needs a different kind of nerv.
The cybermage should pay full for the points of cyber he bought. (1.5 points of Ware, magic from 4 to 5 would cost 35 Karma)

For the beginner pure mage thinking of visibility modifieres does the trick.

The powerfocus 4 from the start mage will be hit with a BC of 2 very nicely.

And the one with several sustaining focis, all spells casted with edge to get more hits than the foci have force: Limit the hits by force when sustaining spells or just use wards and have him recast the spells...

[UmaroVI]

One thing that is definitely true is that mages are easier to make well than any other type of character. Most people's first mage is at least OK, but there's a lot of ways to suck as a mundane or adept. It really depends on what your other characters are; you might just need to include challenges that they are good at and that magic can't solve as well. Or you might have to either get someone to redesign their character. Or you can always have Background Count all over the place, but that's probably the "solution" you are trying to avoid.

Wards really should be all over the place, though. They aren't very expensive to make and if you don't have wards, your building is not secure. At all. It's like not having locks. An unwarded building doesn't even need fancy magic to infiltrate; you can just have a spirit waltz in astrally, materialize, do whatever it wants, and leave.

What are your other characters, exactly?

[mraston]

What are your other characters, exactly?

Well it's a pretty big group actually; I have a Hacker, and 2 stealth guys, one focusing melee one on ranged, A rigger-ish guy focusing transport and physical locks, plus one other magician who is more of the face character.

[Makki]

One group we banned direct Combat spells completely, byebye Stunball. The other group we at least use the optional rule that every net hit increases drain by one.
BGC is great and can take out the mage entirely, but hurts adepts as well.

[Eratosthenes]

Yeah I thought I had that, I had sneaking bits and climbing bits and hacking bits, but during the sneaking bits the magician would say "Oh I'm going to cast invisibility on you now", or the infiltration bits "I'm going to levitate you there".

Smoke is a great idea!

For invisibility, realize that unless they're using Improved Invisibility, it won't work on cameras/sensors. Even then, they'd need to be casting it at high force to beat most electronic sensors, to get enough hits to overcome their object resistance (4-6).

Mages are good for quick, short-duration encounters. When they start having to sling a lot of mojo around, they're going to start getting drain. And once they start suffering from drain, it's a quick slide down into near uselessness. Make the encounters have multiple events: they need to climb a fence, then sneak past a camera, then fight off some goons, then climb another obstacle. Those relying solely on skills will be fine. The mage, unless they're conserving their mana, should be hurting from drain by now.

Don't give the mage the time to rest in between encounters.

[Neraph]

One group we banned direct Combat spells completely, byebye Stunball. The other group we at least use the optional rule that every net hit increases drain by one.
BGC is great and can take out the mage entirely, but hurts adepts as well.

A better house-rule, in my opinion, is to modify the Drain Codes of Indirect Spells by between -2 and -4 and increase Direct Combat Spells by the same amount. It makes Indirect look more appealing while still making Direct useful, but dangerous to the caster without adding a mechanic that does not exist for any other type of spell.

As for the rest - Invisibility on an infiltrator is called good teamwork, as is Levitate on someone who is climbing. It is teamwork and efficiency. Just remember to make sure the mage keep track of his penalties for sustaining spells and remember that Invisibility can be resisted by opponents. Also, look at Wards.

[Yerameyahu]

Hehe. That's still kinda not the point: Angel Summoner *is* 'good teamwork', if the goal is to win as efficiently as possible. But it's a game, so the goal is for everyone to have fun. That can involve tweaks that are 'wrong', from the point of view of either efficiency or game-consistency. It just depends on the group and power levels.

[The Wrestling Tr...]

Send them to runs where other mages set up a magical defense.
By that I do not mean mana barriers and such but rather watcher ghosts that keep watch out for magical activitys.

So if the mage wants to use his spells he has to think twice or else the whole group gets detected. Same with blasting the ghosts with spells.
That would "limit" the mages until the group gets detectd anyway or it's the big showdown (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

And there is always the FAB-3 bacteria that eats on magical stuff (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif) (Just for the lulz to piss of your mages hehe)

[Halinn]

And don't forget that the opponents would know that it is imperative to geek the mage first. Once combat gets going, it's laughably easy to see who just cast a spell, if they're casting it with any significant amount of force. Just make sure that your guards are spread out enough not to be hit with a single stunball.

[Ears]

You know, the easiest way would be to find out what power level the players want and adjust the characters accordingly. If the mage is above it, move some BPs worth of abilities from magical stuff into other areas and if the mundane characters can't do what they're supposed to, help and optimise them.
Maybe it'll take mix of both things but it'll still be easier than changing rules, handwaving BGC and tailoring all the runs to specifically annoy the mage.

[rlor]

Give some of your bad guys ultrasound (invisibility is useless but infiltration checks are still usable) and glowmoss. Add in motion sensors, pressure plates (levitate cancels out), mono-filament trip wires (which can be hilarious when the mage levitates someone into) etc. Use smoke (the dual natured one especially), flash-packs, flashbangs (I'd suggest you not have them use the chunky salsa effect), and even some gas grenades. Make sure all the bad guys are not visible to your team at the same time. Toss in drones. And by toss in drones I don't mean a max armored steel lynx fully kitted out with super-rigger piloting it and an LMG. I mean a bunch of small cheapish drones with small arms weapons equivalent to whatever you have your average bad guy using and running autonomously so they're not rolling a ton of dice.

[Glyph]

I think it may be tactics that are making it too easy for the mage. If the guards use cover more and don't huddle together, then the mage won't be one-shotting them left and right (and an optimized street samurai with an assault rifle or grenade launcher can be just as deadly). Remember that these are mooks, who are not supposed to be that tough for a combat-oriented shadowrunner. Numbers and some elementary tactics can still make them dangerous, though. Mages tend to be squishy, physical stat-wise, so a bit of return fire can mess up his day. Don't forget that some enemies might require a perception test to even spot, if they are hidden.

Remember spell Drain and that spell Force caps successes. For invisibility, remember that it requires line of sight to the subject (when buffing teammates). For levitate, remember that sometimes, it can make you a sitting duck. Have more defenses that can't be easily circumvented by two very common spells that have been around forever. Motion detectors, a head security guy checking the camera feeds from the security guards' helmets, MagLocks, and so on. But like Ears said, don't go out of your way to screw over the mage. Changing Drain for his bread-and-butter combat spells, overusing background count, and other tactics will only make the game frustrating for the player. Use the rules that are there, and mix up the challenges more, and you should be fine.

[TheOOB]

And make sure to keep track of drain and sustaining penalties, if you're casting invisibility and levitate all the time, you will take drain, and a mage is pretty much worthless once they are getting a penalty for sustaining 3+ spells.

[Chainsaw Samurai]

And make sure to keep track of drain and sustaining penalties, if you're casting invisibility and levitate all the time, you will take drain, and a mage is pretty much worthless once they are getting a penalty for sustaining 3+ spells.

Drain from invisibility and levitate? Is this your first year at Hogwart's, Harry?

But you did touch upon the only relevant weakness of Mages. They need to spend a couple Karma here and there for sustaining foci. The worst part is that this too will become the other players' problem as the player of the Mage will not cease crying about it.

[Midas]

At other times, Levitate was just used all over the place, even one another character wanted to actually do something (ie: use his gymnastics skill and some of the gear he had bought). One of the guys even said "You've had your turn, let us do something".

Sounds like you need to sit your players down and have an OOC discussion if the mage is stealing the show and making everyone else feel redundant. Suggest the player dials it back and gives the other players a chance to shine (and hopefully they will chime in and agree with you). Remind him that opponents will Geek the Mage first, and the more he shines the bigger the target on his back.

Spells like Improved Invisibility, Levitate and the mind control spells can be used to accomplish a variety of goals in a broad range of situations; it seems like your mage is either an experienced SR player or lucked out on the spells he chose. As others have mentioned, Ultrasound and motion sensors used sparingly can still ruin the invisible mage's day every once in a while; Levitate can make you a sitting duck; and as for mind control, that stuff gives you a bad rep. You are right to rule that people under mind control should not kill themselves or anything so obviously self-destructive, although be aware that this is a house rule rather than RAW.

A few other suggestions:
1) Play the opposition smart. Goons don't have death-wishes, so should spread out and use cover (reduces the mage's DP, limits the number of people affected by AoE spells). Throw in a counterspelling spirit summoning enemy mage who keeps in LoS of his colleagues but out of LoS of the PCs and some of your PC's Stunballs should fizzle out.
While we're at it, remember the radius for AoE Stunball is Force metres, so overcasting might affect other PCs and/or the mage himself in all but the biggest arenas of combat.
2) Use drones! Drones are harder to geek with magic, giving your mundane sammies something useful to do.
3) Have the opposing mage throw spirits at the PCs - while the mage is dealing with the spirit, the other PCs can be shining against the goons.

[Neraph]

Backround Count. I don't see much of a problem with a corporation having built up Aspected Backround Count for the Not The Group Mage's Tradition.

[Halinn]

Backround Count. I don't see much of a problem with a corporation having built up Aspected Backround Count for the Not The Group Mage's Tradition.

The problem is that it could easily disrupt their wagemages as well. And generally wagemages are weaker than shadowrunner mages, so it could actually hurt their astral defenses to have a BC, since warding would be that much more difficult for them.

[Neraph]

The problem is that it could easily disrupt their wagemages as well. And generally wagemages are weaker than shadowrunner mages, so it could actually hurt their astral defenses to have a BC, since warding would be that much more difficult for them.

Urm... I said Aspected for them. That means it is good for them, bad for you.