Limiting Magic Options

[Ziploxx]

My group and I are on probably our 3rd shadowrun 4th Edition campaign(the last ones only lasting between 2-5 sessions) and coming up on the 4th session of this campaign. We have completed 2 runs. We have been using a lot more matrix and astral stuff. The GM played a hacker the first campaign we did, and now we have a rigger and I'm half hacker. So we have a lot of checks and balances in the matrix, but none of us really know the rules for magic, just the one player who is using it.

The first run we did with him in it the Spirit took about half the time and killed about half the people. Sure, binding it almost makes him passout. Rebinding it seems to suck to. But he has these spirits bound and rampaging through the run(given one command of kill everyone in X area, so he still had like 2), killing entire squads. This guy doesn't know anything about breaking(optimizing) this system either, he's playing a fairly "whatever" shaman and rolling between 8-14 dice. The run had a ward in each building and 2 on-sight mages. Each mage was able to take one shot at the fire spirit before getting demolished . And while his spirits doing all this crap he's rolling for other spells and junk, shouldn't he have to sustain it or something?

Now we know the GM isn't THAT read on either the Matrix or Magic. What are some extended astral security measures? Should the mages be banishing quicker? I haven't even cracked street magic, so I'm most likely way underread.

EDIT: SORRY! It's 4th Edition Magic.

[kzt]

3rd edition are very powerful, as you get magic 6 for free. Summoning spirits and having them kill your enemies works too. You can only control equal to your charisma and only get a few services, but that would do what you are describing. And when pulling up a new one doesn't take long.

The main limit is that high force spirits can be very expensive to summon if you roll poorly, and low force spirits are not invulnerable to small arms like high force spirits are.

The defending mage should still have been able to easily blow the spirit away with an overcast stunbolt, or multiples with an overcast stunball. And yes, they WILL overcast and risk physical damage compared to going HtH with a fire spirit. Most combat mages also have weapon focuses and some ability to use them.

[Umidori]

Spirits are kinda nutso. They're very binary in how they work. Low force spirits are almost useless for anything other than utility, while high force spirits are just walking (flying, actually) monstrosities. And you either summon them with little to no problems, or you practically wipe yourself out.

Most "solutions" seem to revolve around having stronger astral security to deal with player summoned spirits, or being very draconian about spirit limitations - such as having them fulfill commands a little too literally, or having them be recalcitrant and willfully resist or resent being summoned. (Since we're talking about a shaman, here, the second one actually makes sense from a lore standpoint - you're asking powerful spirits for favors, and they're gonna ask you a few in return.) Still, it's a difficult thing to balance easily.

Perhaps the simplest solution is to just throw a third mage at the spirit, and a fourth and fifth and so on, until it feels like a reasonable level of resistance has been met. Barring that, try sending drones at the player mage - it's a lot harder to take out non-organics with magic, and even a spirit will have to put itself on the physical plane to cast physical spells at a drone.

Still, I bet other folks will have way better answers.

~Umidori

[Dakka Dakka]

I would advise against an armsrace, especially with mages. They are supposed to be rare. So not every site should have lots of them around. What you should do however is play the opposition smart.
1) Give your guards SnS. They work like a charm against spirits of Force 6 or lower. One net hit hurts them. And knocking intruders unconscious instead of killing them might have its own benefits.
2) Have guards patrol in teams. Have them always delay their actions. A spirit needs a complex action to materializes so the guards should get a shot in before the spirit can squash them.

BTW Binding is unnecessary. The mage could just as well order the spirit to kill the guards with an unbound spirit. The only drawback is that, should the spirit wander off too far (IIRC 10m*Force) the mage loses the remaining services.

[Ziploxx]

2) Have guards patrol in teams. Have them always delay their actions. A spirit needs a complex action to materializes so the guards should get a shot in before the spirit can squash them.

Wait what are the exact rules for Materialization? I see that it is a power on SR 296. How long can they materialize for? Like there were 3 squads this thing fought and was just flying over to each one and using firebreath(with line of sight casting range?!?!) every time in combat. Isn't the spirit using firebreath a service or something?

[Aerospider]

... shouldn't he have to sustain it or something?

The closest thing to such a notion is the Unruly Bound Spirits optional rule. It's intended for exactly this problem and imposes a -2 DP modifier on the summoner as per sustaining spells. It shouldn't be applied generally though - just for magicians who mistreat their spirits (such as repeatedly sending them to fight his battles for him) and perhaps for all high force spirits (e.g. higher than the magician's Magic).

[Aerospider]

Wait what are the exact rules for Materialization? I see that it is a power on SR 296. How long can they materialize for? Like there were 3 squads this thing fought and was just flying over to each one and using firebreath(with line of sight casting range?!?!) every time in combat. Isn't the spirit using firebreath a service or something?

It's a murky topic, but generally no. 'Kill them' is one service and if the spirit decides to use a particular power then that's its choice to make. This is important - magicians do not remote control their spirits like they are drones. Once given an order the GM, not the player, should play the spirit accordingly and there should be no unbidden coordination with the rest of the team's efforts.

Now 'Use power X on them' is a different matter, eliciting either one use of the power or repeated use of the same power, depending on how the GM decides the spirit interprets the instruction.

[Aerospider]

It shouldn't come up too often, but background count is a bitch for spirits.

There's also fighting fire with fire - spirits are not a rare security measure, from patrol duties to bodyguarding.

[Thanee]

We use a house rule for Summoning, that you cannot summon spirits with Force above your own Magic Rating.

That keeps them in reasonable levels. It is far too easy to summon higher Force spirits.

Bye
Thanee

[Dakka Dakka]

Wait what are the exact rules for Materialization? I see that it is a power on SR 296. How long can they materialize for? Like there were 3 squads this thing fought and was just flying over to each one and using firebreath(with line of sight casting range?!?!) every time in combat. Isn't the spirit using firebreath a service or something?

They can remain materialized indefinitely, but then they likely lose the element of surprise. Going from the astral plane to the physical is a Complex action, so between the spirit materializing and actually doing stuff, the opposition should have an action phase to oppose the spirit, including calling for backup. Addtionally, unless I'm mistaken surprise happens during the pass when the spirit materializes, so in the pass when it does something they should no longer be surprised.
Sneaking up on the guards will take time, so that maybe reinforcemnts will be there before the first team is eliminated.

The others already said it "kill everyone" in the building is only one service, but this may not always be an option. Maybe the runners need to extract someone, maybe there are innocent bystanders, maybe there are mages not related to the run etc.

[Irion]

1) Limit access to high force spirits.
2) Limit power of spirits

For example: Spirits of force higher than 6 always spend edge to resist binding or summoning. Spirits only have an Edge of Force/2 (round up).

[Dakka Dakka]

Spirit's edge is rarely an issue as the summoner cannot force a spirit to spend edge.

[Falconer]

As a new player number 1... stay as far away from possession rules as you can... only use them as a GM threat occasionally.

2. remember spirits are NPC's... they should NOT be played by the mage who summoned them no more than you'd have a face 'play' his street sam contact who he brought in for some extra muscle.
2a. wish wording... he ordered the spirit to kill EVERYONE in the building... start with the mage and his allies :).
2b. this will make them burn through services even faster to countermand and reword orders.
2c. a spirit WILL return to the astral/wherever AFTER it completes a service. (this is in the main rulebook...).
2d. spirits automatically know if a mage mistreats his spirits...

3. spirits have edge and WILL use it to resist summoning... players CANNOT tap this edge or force the spirit to spend it... the spirit will only spend it for it's own ends.
3a... around here summoning something with a force GREATER than your magic is automatic edge to resist... (makes it possible but VERY VERY painful to get high force spirits... and practically suicidal to try and bind them). This is a house rule.

4. changes in initiative only take place at the start of a new combat turn (not initiative pass).
4a. this is dicey... but if a spirit materializes in round 1... it may not be able to act in the second pass. Most people play that it went from 3 to 2 and still give it the second action.
4b. the best time for a spirit to materialize is almost always using it's 3rd astral pass... (no grey area... uses it's last action astral to materialize... 4th pass a few if any people go... first pass next combat turn things are back to order).

5. spirits are again NPC's and don't like being treated like slaves... in Jet set there's a story of a spirit ordered to keep all drinks in a room chilled.
5a. see wish wording... spirit resorted to evaporating all drinks BEFORE they entered the room and other obnoxious tricks until it was finally released after a short time.

Another house rule which is used locally here by another GM is spirits are limited to 6 ranks in a skill. This helps to keep the higher force ones sane. This was a direct result of a force 9 guardian with the 'automatics' skill handed an AK-97 and still having 20+ dice.... see above... not my fault guns are so much better at dealing damage than anything else in the game! (I've toyed with the idea of force/2 ranks instead... seems to scale better).

Spirits tend to be the most broken aspect of magic IMO.


6. in terms of spells... spells aren't so bad... generally you'll do a lot more damage with guns than a mage will with spells. Though when the hyper-armored troll tank comes out to play... a good manabolt is your best friend.
7. Make sure NPC's get their bonus dice to resist from cover and the mage suffers appropriate visibility penalties for casting.

8. remember rent-a-cops aren't there as the primary security... they're there as a tripwire. If they go down, alarms go off... their job isn't to fight intruders so much as it is to report on them and delay them until bigger guns arrive.
8a. see above about visibility... flash paks and smoke grenades are a NPC's best friends when they're just trying to not get gunned down...

9. drones are your friend... drones have object resistance :)... they also tend to carry heavy weapons...

[TheOOB]

Kill everyone might be an over broad service for most spirits unless they really like you. I generally work with fighting in a single combat counts as a service, you have to earn some loyalty before they'll do more than that for a service.

As noted, stick-n-shock is strong agienst spirits, and spirits do take some time to get ready. Unless your spirit was following you, here's how it goes usually.

Pass 1, magician used Simple action to call a spirit on standby and give an order. Spirit comes to magician
Pass 2, Spirit materializes

Next round, spirit acts.

Since a lot of shadowrun combats are decided in the first round, that can be a long time, and having a spirit follow you, even astrally, will make you stick out like a sore thumb to any astral security, even watchers.

[Dakka Dakka]

Since a lot of shadowrun combats are decided in the first round, that can be a long time, and having a spirit follow you, even astrally, will make you stick out like a sore thumb to any astral security, even watchers.

Not watchers by RAW. With 2 dice they will not notice, especially if they are distracted (-2). Even if they are actively looking (+3) for that combination it is unlikely that they will identify it correctly.

[Aerospider]

Not watchers by RAW. With 2 dice they will not notice, especially if they are distracted (-2). Even if they are actively looking (+3) for that combination it is unlikely that they will identify it correctly.

How well does a watcher need to "identify" a trespassing spirit? It's not going to confuse it for a pot plant.

[Dakka Dakka]

How well does a watcher need to "identify" a trespassing spirit? It's not going to confuse it for a pot plant.

While it may be obvious that the spirit is not a potted plant or any other living creature (the rules are a bit vague on that one), anyone needs one hit to ascertain whether a subject is mundane or awakened. A spirit that has not been identified as awakened, should not register, or the watcher's summoner would get a lot of false positives. To identify the type of spirit anyone need two hits. So unless the watcher patrols in an area where no spirits at all are allowed, again you will probably get a lot of false positives.

[phlapjack77]

While it may be obvious that the spirit is not a potted plant or any other living creature (the rules are a bit vague on that one), anyone needs one hit to ascertain whether a subject is mundane or awakened. A spirit that has not been identified as awakened, should not register, or the watcher's summoner would get a lot of false positives.

I could be wrong, but I would think noticing an astrally active creature (spirits, dual-natured beings, astrally projecting mage, etc) is not the same thing as noticing mundane vs. awakened.

[Dakka Dakka]

The question is can you differentiate between the vibrant auras of living creatures and astral forms without a roll. Can you differentiate between different astral forms of the same type without a roll? The former is not clear, the latter is a definite no.

[phlapjack77]

I agree. For my own opinion, I would say that for watchers, who are creatures of the astral, being able to tell the difference between auras on the astral (living things) and actual beings that actually exist on the astral (spirits, dual-natured, etc) is something that doesn't need a roll. So telling the difference between mundane and awakened is not the subject of discussion.

[Aerospider]

The question is can you differentiate between the vibrant auras of living creatures and astral forms without a roll. Can you differentiate between different astral forms of the same type without a roll? The former is not clear, the latter is a definite no.

I've found the RAW for the first issue:

SR4a p.191 AURAS AND ASTRAL FORMS:
"Astral forms are more colourful and brighter than auras, as they are astrally 'real'."

SR4a p.191 ASTRAL PERCEPTION:
"Without attempting to read an aura, a magician can still get an impression of what type of aura it is (spell, spirit, living creature, etc.)."
(Assuming it's not really meant to be limited to just magicians).

You're quite right that a roll is required to recognise an aura/astral form. However, I would think it a trivial exercise to concoct a security protocol whereby in the event a watcher comes across an authorised astral form then said astral form will identify itself in a pre-determined manner.

[Neraph]

I've run plenty of games over the years and I've never had issues with spirits in my games. Of course, I've also had a very small handful of characters that summon. I've even had a Possession mage and he didn't "break the game" any at all - in fact, he helped keep some PCs alive by possessing them when they dropped for extraction to reach the streetdocs.

A lot of this has been mentioned upthread, but the few things that help balance spirits specfically (and magic generally) are: backround count, wards, patrolling spirits, stick-n-shock, enemy mages. One of my favorite things is a mage (magician/mystic adept) using Control Thoughts or similar magic on an enemy spirit and telling it to "kill your summoner." That'll chew through favors real quickly.

[Irion]

@Neraph
Whats your definition of game breaking?

[Neraph]

"I win" buttons. So far, magic has been kept in check (either through my players' own actions or my magical counters I don't know) and is a non-issue. The most problematic magic-based characters I've had was a fistfighter adept with the Sonic Aura Power, a mundane 7-Edge sniper, and a bio-ninja stealth character. Fighting clever isn't a game-breaker, it's simply superior tactics. People complaining about magic just reminds me of novice Go players complaining about losing to someone who's been at it for a few years.

[Umidori]

Wait.... Sonic (Read "Elemental") Aura Power?

~Umidori

[Dakka Dakka]

Yup it will make noises like the 70s Batman series (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

No, I mean... I know about the Elemental Strike adept power... but no aura powers for adepts.

Unless this is another case of my not having/using the crazy books like War! ...?

~Umidori

[Dakka Dakka]

If it is a regular adept you are right of course. A mystic adept could pull this off.

[DireRadiant]

Zipploxx.

Magic is powerful.

What happens when something powerful occurs? There is the perfectly natural reaction of the witnesses. "Somebody doing something! Help!"

You witnessed a player doing something powerful in your game. What did you do? You went to the larger community for help.

The facility NPC guards see something powerful, what will they do? They will go out for help.

No matter how powerful you think that puny mage on your team is, there is always both more opponents and more powerful opponents out there. There is always something more powerful out there.

In practical terms, it is is relatively cheap for a security force to sub contract out a set of on call spirits supplied by a mage somewhere else. The NPC guards hit the panic button, and within a turn a spirit will arrive to counteract your mages spirit.

Next step the astral security mage arrives, not to fight, but to act as an astral witness and to provide a lock on for later astral tracking down of your teams mage astral signature.

Sure, your mage walked all over that facility, but there will now be teams of astral security mages, packs of overwatch drones, flights of security force helicoptors full of heavy gunnery out hunting your mage.

Have fun.

Geeking Mages is heavy industry and a career for millions of people.

Mages are powerful and rare, bullets cost 2 nuyen each and are plentiful.

[Umidori]

Kinda unusual for a fist-adept though, having to split the magic score and all.

It could work I suppose. Elemental Aura is a beastly sort of spell for a melee character: +1DV per spellcasting hit at half armor with elemental effects, plus anyone who actually hits you back has to resist (Spell Force) damage. It has a high drain though, F/2 + 3, and if you're sustaining it yourself that's 2 dice less for the punchy-punchy. Probably better to have a dedicated spellcaster in your team to keep it up on you instead, though. And it's definitely not subtle, physically or astrally.

Personally if I want to focus more on the physical combat, I tend to avoid mystic adepts because it gets BP/karma expensive to pay for the magic enough to split between powers and spells, then lose some of it for an initiative booster, and then buy the skills to actually cast anything worthwhile. Plus most spells worth using to enhance your physical combat are, again, sustained, which hinders your physical combat. And you gotta take the time to cast them, and resist the drain, and you light up like an astral christmas tree.

~Umidori

[Aerospider]

Personally if I want to focus more on the physical combat, I tend to avoid mystic adepts because it gets BP/karma expensive to pay for the magic enough to split between powers and spells, then lose some of it for an initiative booster, and then buy the skills to actually cast anything worthwhile.

One of my current players asked me to draw up a Jedi-wannabe type for him, which from his description had to be mystic adept. But very little of what he wanted required spellcasting, so to save on costs I gave him the (much deplored) Aspected quality twice, once for spellcasting and once for manipulation magic, using the optional +2/-6 rule. Threw in a manipulation specialisation and his Magic (Spellcasting) of 1 and Spellcasting skill of 1 now gives him a DP of 8 for telepathy and telekinesis magic. And that's for -4 BP all told. Mentor Spirit and focus could get it even higher of course, but he didn't go for it.

[Irion]

"I win" buttons. "

Such things can't exist in an complex system, unless rules were screwed up badly (meaning not overpowered but really broken).
There is just one such glitch in SR, and that would be the free spirit with unlimited Karma supply...

Nothing in it self will make you "win". The best pools in shooting won't help, if the object is to brew coffee...

Especially not if the resourced brought against you are unlimited...

So a usefull definition of broken is:
"An option to do achieve a goal much easier and/or better than every other possible solution"
For example, take computer games.
Lets take, for example StarCraft 2.

The "reaper" would be broken if, he had 10 more HP, 2 more damage and 20% more range.
Why? It still could not do much against a terran cruiser or other heavy units?
Yes, but at the time you get them and with the right tactics they would be devastating.

On the other hand, an I win button does not need to be broken. A Unit which would be nearly impossible to get but also nearly impossible to defeat would not be broken...

[Umidori]

You're being pedantic, Irion.

When in doubt, go with the rule of fun. If it's fun, let it slide. If it isn't fun, or if it relies on ruining someone elses fun to be fun, then nix it.

Whether you wanna call it "broken", an "I Win Button", "imbalanced", or just plain "overpowered", any option with a poor ratio of fun to anti-fun needs to be addressed. And remember that your mileage may vary - just like how some people prefer Pink Mohawk to Black Trenchcoat, some people are going to be more or less willing to tolerate anti-fun when it crops up. One person's acceptable trade-off is another person's game-breaking idiotic rule structure. It's open to interpretation.

You might be fine with a feature that simply drives someone else nuts. That's cool if you are. But the appropriate response isn't to dismiss their frustrations, or even to tell them that they can overcome the anti-fun problem by doing "Other Thing". It might work wonders, but it also might not be what they personally wanted or expected from their gaming. Options are a good thing. People don't like having only one choice for dealing with a problem - even moreso when it's a problem that blindsides them, something that they weren't expecting to even be a problem.

When people talk about something being "broken", or whatever word you want to use, they really only mean one thing - "I find X to be unfun." And I can't think of a more legitimate complaint for an aspect of a game system.

~Umidori

[kzt]

The "I Win" button is only a problem when it isn't your finger pressing it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Neraph]

Elemental Strike or whatever, the Adept Power from Street Magic. Done sonic it is simply broken (and yes, I just called something broken).

Nothing in it self will make you "win". The best pools in shooting won't help, if the object is to brew coffee...

Also, note that I said I haven't seen them.

[Dakka Dakka]

Elemental Strike or whatever, the Adept Power from Street Magic. Done sonic it is simply broken (and yes, I just called something broken).

Not more broken than Elemental Strike [Electricity]. While the target gets no armor vs sonic damage (there are ways to get protection though), electricity always imposes a -2 on the target and can incapacitate it.

[Neraph]

Not more broken than Elemental Strike [Electricity]. While the target gets no armor vs sonic damage (there are ways to get protection though), electricity always imposes a -2 on the target and can incapacitate it.

Yes, but Sound Dampers are only available to cyberears, and mages with Silence would have been a direct response to the character's choice. A good GM doesn't need to custom-tailor enemies like that (unless they earn it through in-game enemies). I countered the particular player by adding more drones (logical) and using superior tactics (punchy-punchy character can't hit the people overlooking the alley from a balcony now, can he?).

Besides, Electricity is easily resisted with Nonconductivity.

[Umidori]

@Dakka

Sonic damage actually is far worse than Electricity.

With Electricity, the victim gets to roll Body + Willpower + Half Impact. If they hit the threshold of 3, they don't get Incapacitated, but they suffer a -2 dice pool modifier. If they don't reach the threshold and do get Incapacitated, they cannot take action for 2 + Attack Net Hits Combat Turns.

With Sonic, if you deal more damage than the target has Willpower, they instantly suffer Nausea, and are deafened for 10 minutes.

Nausea: Nausea is a catch-all term that covers pain, panic, vomiting, double vision, and other toxin effects. If the Power of an attack after the Toxin Resistance Test exceeds the target’s Willpower, she is incapacitated (unable to take any actions) with vomiting and dizziness for 3 Combat Turns. Whether or not a character is incapacitated, nausea doubles all of a character’s wound modifiers for 10 minutes. A nauseated character with 3 boxes of damage (a –1 wound modifier), for example, suffers –2 dice on all tests instead.

So instead of an automatic -2 dice with a low threshold test to resist Incapacitation with a fair amount of dice, you get automatic double wound modifiers (ranging from -2 to -6) and automatically get Incapacitated if the DV exceeds your willpower. And you don't get any armor to resist the damage itself.

Stick that on a fist-adept throwing out punches that range in damage from a shotgun blast to an assault canon round, and it literally becomes impossible to resist being taken out of the fight for three entire Combat Turns if you get struck. And even if you get back into the fight after that, you've still taken a fair bit of stun, and you're deaf and suffer double wound modifiers for another 9 minutes and 51 seconds.

~Umidori

[Dakka Dakka]

Woops forgot about the nausea. You are right, that is powerful, too powerful maybe. Drones however are absolutely immune against it.

[Umidori]

At which point the fist-adept uses their Killing Hands power (a pre-requisite for Elemental Strke) to deal Physical Damage punches for typically anywhere from 7 to 13 base damage. Or if they took the Elemental Strike power twice, they just witch to a different element, like Electricity - the original Bane of Drones.

The superior tactics Neraph employed are probably the best counter - after all, the reason ranged weapons exist is so you don't get punched or stabbed at melee.

~Umidori

[Dakka Dakka]

At which point the fist-adept uses their Killing Hands power (a pre-requisite for Elemental Strke) to deal Physical Damage punches for typically anywhere from 7 to 13 base damage.

It is a grey area whether that works. The elemental effect tells us that it is stun damage, killing hands says you can do physicla damage. Whichever gets applied first is irrelevant. I'd say if you teke the elemental effect you get all of the elemental effect, unless explicitly mentioned differently (Lightnining bolt). BTW where did you get the 7 to 13 base damage. This is not a function of that power. Investing additional adept powers into that you could of course get there. It sitll only allowes to squish anything in melee range.

The superior tactics Neraph employed are probably the best counter - after all, the reason ranged weapons exist is so you don't get punched or stabbed at melee.

My point exactly.

[Umidori]

Sorry, wasn't clear, was assuming typical sorts of punch values for fist-adepts. Critical Strike plus ork or troll level strength and martial arts make you punch like a beast.

And for the Killing Hands, I meant turn off your Elemental Strike and just punch for straight physical, no element.

~Umidori

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Sorry, wasn't clear, was assuming typical sorts of punch values for fist-adepts. Critical Strike plus ork or troll level strength and martial arts make you punch like a beast.

And for the Killing Hands, I meant turn off your Elemental Strike and just punch for straight physical, no element.

~Umidori

Does not work all that well against a drone that the Melee-adept cannot reach, though. Whether it is flying or on the ground.

[Umidori]

Kinda mentioned that in the post before my last one... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umidori

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Kinda mentioned that in the post before my last one... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

~Umidori

Indeed you did... My Apologies... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
I like a good Melee Adept, but I prefer a Good Throwing Adept more.

[Umidori]

Throwing is probably superior in most cases, except for Astral stuff like a non-manifested spirit. Then you're right back to the problem of being unable to effectively reach your enemy while they can rain pain down on you. At least with spririt punching you can move into melee range for both physical and astral.

~Umi

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Throwing is probably superior in most cases, except for Astral stuff like a non-manifested spirit. Then you're right back to the problem of being unable to effectively reach your enemy while they can rain pain down on you. At least with spririt punching you can move into melee range for both physical and astral.

~Umi

I would argue the Astral Closing of Distance for a Melee Adept. Since he is constrained to gravity effects, and a Spirit or Astral projecting Mage is not, he has the same issues either way, astrally. He is the victim in that regard, and is likely never going to gain an upper hand, unless he can constrain the encounter to something within arm's reach.

[Umidori]

As I understand the RAW, though, dual natured non-projecting characters are fully capable of engaging in astral combat against fully astral forms with nothing ever being said about range or positioning.

...although , they're also fully capable of Astrally Tracking with the same Extended Test Interval as a fully astral tracker... so...

*shrug*

~Umi

[Falconer]

Astral combat is treated as melee physical attacks. And also, "there are no known ranged weapons which function in astral space". The *ONLY* way to affect something outside your reach in astral is to use a mana spell. No weapons work. Also astral combat is 'trained only' (great way to screw over munchkin mages who think they can ignore it... since they'll always just attack with spells... spirit at astral speed gets in his face and gores him... he can't defend since he can't default on the astral combat test). Adepts have the same problem... attacking astral only forms they need to use willpower + astral combat.

So yes, only spirits which effectively have perfect flight while materialized and ludicrous astral speeds can engage pretty much anything in astral combat. Otherwise an astrally projecting mage, or a spirit of man with innate spell stunbolt/manabolt can pretty much ruin the day of any ground bound dual-natured entity since there's little they can do to attack back except break LOS from the caster (such as underground or a building so the astral form has to come within reach to see the target).

This is also the reason the first thing munchkins do when playing a ghoul is install cybereyes... it eliminates their 1 point of magic making them forever more mundane and forever eliminating the dual-natured drawback. It also restores normal sight to them. (and avoids needing to learn assensing & astral combat... two trained only skills)

The only catch is that something which has the "dual natured" power (not which is dual-natured... since it's possible to do so by percieving without having the power) gains a special out... it may always use it's physical stats along with any 'natural weapon' powers weapons and it's unarmed combat skill to defend or attack astrally as well as physically. This is to prevent things like dual-natured grizzlies from getting completely gimped since they're able to use their claws/bite to pretty much rip things apart.

Here's another one most people don't realize... materializing spirits aren't given the 'dual natured' power. They become 'dual natured' in the same sense than an astrally perceiving character is dual natured. The power gives them access to the material plane in a similar manner to how perception gives an adept access to the astral. It's not the same as the critter power. (it's a VERY VERY bad habit of the authors to give critter powers different abilities with the same name as other powers... such as mystic armor... does radically different things as player spell, player adept power, critter power). So a GM could stretch the rules to slap a spirit with a -2 penalty to any physical interactions with the real world in the same manner as a mage trying to use a pistol or punch someone while astrally perceiving.

In fact, only some later books hint that spirits gain any 'normal' senses at all when they materialize and that is only in the bit for making PC free spirits. I personally have always just gone with.. they can interact with the material plane, but can still only assense unless they have 'low light vision' or something similar through an enhanced senses critter power.

[Neraph]

Here's another one most people don't realize... materializing spirits aren't given the 'dual natured' power. They become 'dual natured' in the same sense than an astrally perceiving character is dual natured. The power gives them access to the material plane in a similar manner to how perception gives an adept access to the astral. It's not the same as the critter power. (it's a VERY VERY bad habit of the authors to give critter powers different abilities with the same name as other powers... such as mystic armor... does radically different things as player spell, player adept power, critter power). So a GM could stretch the rules to slap a spirit with a -2 penalty to any physical interactions with the real world in the same manner as a mage trying to use a pistol or punch someone while astrally perceiving.

You should put some of this in the Broken Rules thread. Also, don't forget that Materialization, Possession, and Inhabitation are all Physical powers. I'll let you figure out what that means.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Yes, but Sound Dampers are only available to cyberears, and mages with Silence would have been a direct response to the character's choice. A good GM doesn't need to custom-tailor enemies like that (unless they earn it through in-game enemies). I countered the particular player by adding more drones (logical) and using superior tactics (punchy-punchy character can't hit the people overlooking the alley from a balcony now, can he?).

Besides, Electricity is easily resisted with Nonconductivity.

And yet a SMG will still usually outperform the adept. So while sonic may be the best elemental strike power it is pretty much making a crap option a little less crappy. And don't get me started on a simple stun bolt spell.

[Dakka Dakka]

Astral combat is treated as melee physical attacks. And also, "there are no known ranged weapons which function in astral space". The *ONLY* way to affect something outside your reach in astral is to use a mana spell. No weapons work. Also astral combat is 'trained only' (great way to screw over munchkin mages who think they can ignore it... since they'll always just attack with spells... spirit at astral speed gets in his face and gores him... he can't defend since he can't default on the astral combat test).

Since it works like melee combat, the mage can also dodge and even default on it.

@Throwing: Why would ypou throw on the astral plane, when you can subdue. deals nice damage and prevents the spirit from launching another surprise attack.

In fact, only some later books hint that spirits gain any 'normal' senses at all when they materialize and that is only in the bit for making PC free spirits. I personally have always just gone with.. they can interact with the material plane, but can still only assense unless they have 'low light vision' or something similar through an enhanced senses critter power.

While they lack the Dual-Natured Critter Power, "Spirits in physical form are in fact dual-natured, interacting with the physical and astral planes simultaneously" (SR4A p. 186), whereas "a character using astral perception is considered dual-natured, active on both the physical and astral planes simultaneously." (SR4A p. 191).
Spirits can and do fully interact with the physical world while being materialized whereas for astrally perceiving characters there is no interaction between physical stimuli (photons, sound etc.) and their sensory organs.
Additionally the Perception Skill of all spirits and the enhanced senses of some would not work at all if the spirit could not perceive the physical plane.

So it is pretty obvious that materialized spirits work differently form assensing metahumans. The easiest way to deal with it is to use the same rules as the dual-natured Critter Power.

[Falconer]

Dakka: keep that in the broken rules thread... I'm addressing it here once then no more.

You're way out on a limb here for the first part. There is NO logical basis whatsoever for your argument in any means which understands the clear and simple meaning of 'cannot default on this skill'

Astral Combat (p122).... Default: NO, skill group: none.....
Description: "The astral combat skill is used to fight while in astral space, WHERE NORMAL COMBAT METHODS ARE NEXT TO USELESS"

You're saying you can default on an opposed skill check which outright states it CANNOT be defaulted on. What can I say... your logic is impeccable and completely unassailable... (what a joke). How does one argue with one who has no concept of the meaning of 'to default on a skill' and 'not all skills may be defaulted on'.

Lets take another goody in there... Assensing is also TRAINED ONLY and cannot be defaulted on. So you have a character who's somehow opened to the astral... not only are they completely clueless as to what is going on around them... they have no way to default on perception checks... let alone how to defend themselves.


As for the rest... spirits do NOT have the dual natured critter power. You assuming they do is a house rule... one most people do. As an astrally perceiving character I am simultaneously interacting with both the astral and the physical at the same time as well. The *ONLY* things with dual-natured as critter power... are critters which have no choice EXCEPT to ALWAYS be astrally active... they cannot turn it off or on whim they simply just always are trapped in both planes... it's the reason they suffer no penalties (and are the *SOLE EXCEPTION* allowed to use PHYSICAL COMBAT instead of Astral combat when attacked astrally. Yes even an adept with a sword interacting with a purely astral attacker enters into what I like to term a contest of wills (willpower + astral combat + weapon focus....).

Quite frankly... I only suggested this to the OP as a way that he might try and limit spirits if they're causing trouble. The -2 penalty is specific to the mage/adept astrally percieving while interacting with the physical. I was merely pointing out the two conditions are so analogous as it may work to consider treating them the same. (a mage/adept is normally 'trapped' in the physical... when he extends himself into the astral he takes a penalty on non-astral actions. A spirit is normally confined to the astral... when he extends to the physical, it may take a penalty on some of it's actions...

Here's where I'm different than you, I'm acknowledging it's a stretch to apply the penalty... but an understandable one to someone looking for a houserule to take some of the edge of spirits.

[Neraph]

And yet a SMG will still usually outperform the adept. So while sonic may be the best elemental strike power it is pretty much making a crap option a little less crappy. And don't get me started on a simple stun bolt spell.

Maybe in terms of range, but certainly not in terms of actual damage dealt. Full Auto Narrow Bursts with ADPS ammo is nice, but getting crazy-high comparable damage with an unarmed adept (Critical Strike, Martial Arts, Strength, ect.) that ignores armor is superior.

[Raiki]

Maybe in terms of range, but certainly not in terms of actual damage dealt. Full Auto Narrow Bursts with ADPS ammo is nice, but getting crazy-high comparable damage with an unarmed adept (Critical Strike, Martial Arts, Strength, ect.) that ignores armor is superior.

And to build on Neraph's point (never thought I'd say that), try telling someone that he can't take his (fleshy, completely mundane looking) hands into the fancy cocktail party.

While adepts may not be better than sams in most situations, they certainly have their uses.

~R~

[kzt]

And to build on Neraph's point (never thought I'd say that), try telling someone that he can't take his (fleshy, completely mundane looking) hands into the fancy cocktail party.

While adepts may not be better than sams in most situations, they certainly have their uses.

Yes. But it can be done as well and with a lot more flexibility by a mage. He can also walk into that same party. It's a lot easier to take out that sniper 300 meters away with stunbolt than critical strike, and stunball is a lot better at taking down a room full of armed guys than Mr "I run up and punch him with critical strike".

[Irion]

Beeing dual natured does not mean you have normal sight. (Ghouls are one example)

This is a problem in general with shadowrun and it is often a problem with games adding additional material in every aspekt in later books.
(Opposed to those, which have one Magic book, one "chargen-book", one combat book etc.pp.)

Sometimes the templates you started with are subotimal for the stuff you want to add.
The spirit vision described in Runners companion does not really fit any vision type.
Well, with a bit good will, it is a description of astral perception. So it would be great if the book started with the attitude to write down every type of vision a character has.
Humans: Normal.
Elves: Night vision.
Trolls: Infrared and normal.
(Or may be differently but it does not really matter)

If spirits can see normally is never really said or countered. There are some examples (some in novels ) which point you in one direction and there are some pointing in the other dirctions

[Dakka Dakka]

Dakka: keep that in the broken rules thread... I'm addressing it here once then no more.

You're way out on a limb here for the first part. There is NO logical basis whatsoever for your argument in any means which understands the clear and simple meaning of 'cannot default on this skill'

Astral Combat (p122).... Default: NO, skill group: none.....
Description: "The astral combat skill is used to fight while in astral space, WHERE NORMAL COMBAT METHODS ARE NEXT TO USELESS"

You're saying you can default on an opposed skill check which outright states it CANNOT be defaulted on. What can I say... your logic is impeccable and completely unassailable... (what a joke). How does one argue with one who has no concept of the meaning of 'to default on a skill' and 'not all skills may be defaulted on'.

You did not get my point at all. Of course you cannot default on the a skill check using astral combat. What you can do however, as astral combat works like melee combat, is use INT+Dodge. If you use a Dodge check you can default on that skill.

As for the rest... spirits do NOT have the dual natured critter power. You assuming they do is a house rule... one most people do. As an astrally perceiving character I am simultaneously interacting with both the astral and the physical at the same time as well. The *ONLY* things with dual-natured as critter power... are critters which have no choice EXCEPT to ALWAYS be astrally active... they cannot turn it off or on whim they simply just always are trapped in both planes... it's the reason they suffer no penalties (and are the *SOLE EXCEPTION* allowed to use PHYSICAL COMBAT instead of Astral combat when attacked astrally. Yes even an adept with a sword interacting with a purely astral attacker enters into what I like to term a contest of wills (willpower + astral combat + weapon focus....).

No, the astrally perceiving character does not fully interact with the physical plane. He cannot perceive the physical plane at all. He is only (magically) active on both planes. A spirit however is said to interact with both planes simultaneously. If id didn't, it could not use the Perception skill or its enhanced senses ever.

Quite frankly... I only suggested this to the OP as a way that he might try and limit spirits if they're causing trouble. The -2 penalty is specific to the mage/adept astrally percieving while interacting with the physical. I was merely pointing out the two conditions are so analogous as it may work to consider treating them the same. (a mage/adept is normally 'trapped' in the physical... when he extends himself into the astral he takes a penalty on non-astral actions. A spirit is normally confined to the astral... when he extends to the physical, it may take a penalty on some of it's actions...

I did not object this houserule, I objected you saying that the perception of the physical plane was only hinted at in later books.

@Irion: Ghouls only do not have physical sight because they go blind as part of their transformation. As they have the dual-natured Critter Power, they can perceive the physical world with their other senses. Whether an astrally perceiving metahuman is blind or not he can never see, hear, smell, touch or taste the physical plane.

Actually it is said that spirits have normal senses. They interact simultaneously with both planes. That includes photons sound waves etc. An astrally perceiving metahuman cannot do that. For him it is astral perception or physical perception. Never both.

[Irion]

I do not need to see, in order to interact.
There are several possible interpretations. But to include a special spirit vision, suggested in RC, is something I do not like.

And it is also impossible to use two kinds of perception at the same time. Only one. Thats how the rules work.

[Dakka Dakka]

I do not need to see, in order to interact.

Photons and sound waves are part of the physical world. The sensory organs of an astrally perceiving metahuman cannot interact with them.

And it is also impossible to use two kinds of perception at the same time. Only one. Thats how the rules work.

For astrally perceiving metahumans you are right. Creatures with the dual natured critter power are different though:

However, innate dual nature is different from astral perception in that dual natured critters can always sense both the physical and astral worlds without having to shift back and forth.

Since spirits do interact with the physical world they need to work like creatures with the dual-natured critter power.

[Ziploxx]

Loving all the discussion. We're in a session right now an wondering where the rules are for how SnS affects spirits.

[Irion]

Photons and sound waves are part of the physical world. The sensory organs of an astrally perceiving metahuman cannot interact with them.
For astrally perceiving metahumans you are right. Creatures with the dual natured critter power are different though:

Since spirits do interact with the physical world they need to work like creatures with the dual-natured critter power.

A blind man can interact with the physical world as a "normal" man can. Those photons interact with him two.
Just because you do not have eyes...

And it is not part of beeing a dual natured creature to see or to hear...

However you take it, the paragraph in the free spirit section even tells explicitly, that spirits do NOT see like normal people do.

Again, I do not care what it is or how it should be.
All I am saying is, that it is not said in the book. And that the only way to make such things CLEAR from the start is to introduce several kind of visions and just add them to every critter/methuman /drone whatever.

Dual natured RAW-wise only means, that you can use astral perception to navigate to see in the physical world with any distraction modifier. THATS ALL.
An other (unmentioned problem, because it does not matter rulewise) is, that two or even three sights do not overlap good.
If you add heat, normal, ultrasound and astral vision, you won't see much at all. Those will all layer on top of each other, until you can't see anything.
So by the rules you can only use one kind of vision at a time. (Or how else would you read the visible penalty table...

[_Pax._]

Beeing dual natured does not mean you have normal sight. (Ghouls are one example)

A ghouls with cybereyes can see the physical plane quite well, thank you very much. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Irion]

So what is your point? A ghul with cybereyes loosing the dual natured quality can see the physical plane quite well, too...

So somehow I think the word of interest here is "cybereyes"...

[_Pax._]

So what is your point? A ghul with cybereyes loosing the dual natured quality can see the physical plane quite well, too...

Ghouls don't stop beign Dual-Natured because they get Cybereyes.

So somehow I think the word of interest here is "cybereyes"...

No.

The concept of interest is, "not all ghouls are blind." Ghouls go blind because they develop cataracts, not because of any neurological deficiency. Replace the eyeballs with something that won't develop cataracts again, and they can see just fine. (And as PCs, have to buy off their blindness.) Such a ghoul sees the physical and the astral simultaneously.

[Neraph]

@Irion: Ghouls only do not have physical sight because they go blind as part of their transformation. As they have the dual-natured Critter Power, they can perceive the physical world with their other senses. Whether an astrally perceiving metahuman is blind or not he can never see, hear, smell, touch or taste the physical plane.

They can hear your pain on both planes simultaneously.

That includes photons sound waves etc.

Except photons from electronic screens, because that makes sense.

EDIT:

Loving all the discussion. We're in a session right now an wondering where the rules are for how SnS affects spirits.

ItNW is simply armor - it is halved by elemental effects just like all other armor.

[Dakka Dakka]

Except photons from electronic screens, because that makes sense.

Unfortunately there is that.

ItNW is simply armor - it is halved by elemental effects just like all other armor.

Yup, elemental effects form mundane sources (SnS, incendiary grenades etc.) Against elemental effects from spells or critter powers ItNW does not work at all.

[Neraph]

Well, it can work, just normally doesn't. A F8 spirit hit with 1 net success on SnS ammo will still ignore it, but yeah, normally it becomes a non-issue. I use the mental image of Sauron, Dark Lord materializing in front of a rent-a-cop and getting tazed into disruption as he does his monologue.

[Irion]

@_Pax._
Depends on their essence score, but I guess they do in 90% of the cases.

@Neraph

Except photons from electronic screens, because that makes sense.

Somehow I think the poor guy writing it, did not know if spirits should have normal vision or not. There are (if you go through all editions, since it is a fluff question) proves for either side I guess. Thats why I said, it is great if such stuff is done in advance and not the second a "race" becomes playable...

[Dakka Dakka]

Ghouls don't stop beign Dual-Natured because they get Cybereyes.

Only if they are otherwise awakened and have a Magic Rating of 2 or greater. Otherwise any essence robbing implant will reduce their magic rating from one to zero making them mundane and not dual-natured. Now with 1% awakened and the lack of ghoulpocalypse, there shouldn't be any awakened ghouls.

[Umidori]

So back to the SnS stuff briefly... does that only work if a spirit actually Materializes? Or will it work if they simply Manifest? Because they're supposedly intangible while Manifested, no? Would an elemental effect harm them though, despite the fact physical damage won't?

~Umi

[Dakka Dakka]

Manifested entities (spirits, projecting mages) are only perceivable from the physiscal plane. They are not active on the physical plane. As such the cannot be harmed by any effect on the physical plane or affect anything only active on the physical plane. They cannot perceive the physical plane either.

[Medicineman]

Or will it work if they simply Manifest? Because they're supposedly intangible while Manifested, no?

That's right. Manifestation only means making Yourself(the astrally mage or the Spirit) visible to mundanes.they remain in Astral Space
only when Spirits are materialised they can affect the physical World( and Vice Versa)

with a jinxed Dance
(after looking to Dakka Dakkas Post )
Medicineman

[_Pax._]

Only if they are otherwise awakened and have a Magic Rating of 2 or greater. Otherwise any essence robbing implant will reduce their magic rating from one to zero making them mundane and not dual-natured. Now with 1% awakened and the lack of ghoulpocalypse, there shouldn't be any awakened ghouls.

I don't believe Ghouls are precluded from raising their Magic Rating, even if not specifically Awakened. Or there's always the case of the cybereyes being present before being infected. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

So a few more questions, somewhat different topic. Was reminded of it because I was wondering if it is ever possible to detect astral spirits without becoming astrally active yourself (or using manatech).

So on that note, what are the proper uses of the Adept Power Magic Sense?

Magic Sense
Cost: .5

This power grants the adept extra sensitivity to the ebbs and flows of mana in his vicinity. The adept can sense magical activity on the same plane within (Magic x 10) meters of his person. This power will detect active foci, spells, mana barriers, dual-natured beings, and mana anomalies; on the astral it will also detect astral forms. Treat this power as the Detect Magic spell (p. 199, SR4), with a Force equal to the adept’s Magic.

I'm being thrown by a few things here.

First, it says that its operation "detects magic on the same plane" (as the adept, presumably). But then it says it operates as the Detect Magic Spell.

Detect Magic (Active, Area)
Type: M • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: ( F÷2)

Detect Magic, Extended (Active, Extended Area)
Type: M • Range: T • Duration: S • DV: ( F÷2) + 2

The subject can detect the presence of all foci, spells, wards, magical lodges, and spirits within range of the sense. It does not detect Awakened characters or critters, astral signatures, or the effects of permanent spells once they have become permanent.

The spell doesn't differentiate between which plane the caster or the magical subject being detected is on at all. It clearly picks up ALL spells (not just physical spells in the physical plane and just astral in the astral), it picks up ALL mana barriers regardless of if the user is only active on the physical where they don't actually have an effect, it picks up ALL foci (even inactive?), and it picks up ALL spirits, whether in physical or astral form.

Furthermore, there are direct contradictions. The power says it detects dual natured beings, while the spell says that Awakened characters or critters are not detected (presumably intended to convey that you can't detect magical power that isn't active, but dual-natured critters ARE active magically).

I just... what the hell is going on here? Better question, since the only way an adept of any sort can ever enter the astral is via a dose of Shade, what the hell are they going on about detecing magic "on the same plane" for? You can't GET on the astral except via a rare and expensive alchemically produced magical compound that only crops up in one book and is an extreme exception! Why would they differentiate in the first place? Are they perhaps intending it to work on the astral only when you're astrally perceiving? And why would they explain how it works, and then say it operates like the spell which works completely differently than how they just explained it?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

~Umi

[kzt]

Loving all the discussion. We're in a session right now an wondering where the rules are for how SnS affects spirits.

Either it works perfectly, bypassing hardened armor or it doesn't. It's the GM call because it's never made clear in the game what the hell they mean. I think allowing it to bypass armor is stupid (mostly as those little prongs are not going to penetrate the 12/12 armor on the spirit) , but I also think that spirits are far too easy to get far too tough, so I understand the reasoning. I've never had a GM who would buy it.

It's another example of really terrible rules writing.

[kzt]

I just... what the hell is going on here? Better question, since the only way an adept of any sort can ever enter the astral is via a dose of Shade, what the hell are they going on about detecing magic "on the same plane" for? You can't GET on the astral except via a rare and expensive alchemically produced magical compound that only crops up in one book and is an extreme exception! Why would they differentiate in the first place? Are they perhaps intending it to work on the astral only when you're astrally perceiving? And why would they explain how it works, and then say it operates like the spell which works completely differently than how they just explained it?

Don't you just love the clear writing and well thought-out rules in this game?

[Umidori]

We need SR5. That's all there is to it.

Start fresh, scrap everything, build a new set of rules from scratch. Hell, even reboot the timeline if you like, the world lore can get just as weird and contradictory as the rules.

~Umi

[Neraph]

Either it works perfectly, bypassing hardened armor or it doesn't. It's the GM call because it's never made clear in the game what the hell they mean. I think allowing it to bypass armor is stupid (mostly as those little prongs are not going to penetrate the 12/12 armor on the spirit) , but I also think that spirits are far too easy to get far too tough, so I understand the reasoning. I've never had a GM who would buy it.

It's another example of really terrible rules writing.

Absolutely wrong. The rules are abundantly clear on this, and you're blurb about "prongs" is completely irrelevant.

ItNW is treated as Hardened Armor of a value. Hardened Armor is Armor that ignores any damage that is converted to stun. Elemental effects halve armor. So you have an elemental effect that halves armor, which includes Hardened Armor, which ItNW is. It's a logical progression of rules, nothing more.

[Neraph]

So a few more questions, somewhat different topic. Was reminded of it because I was wondering if it is ever possible to detect astral spirits without becoming astrally active yourself (or using manatech).

So on that note, what are the proper uses of the Adept Power Magic Sense?


I'm being thrown by a few things here.

First, it says that its operation "detects magic on the same plane" (as the adept, presumably). But then it says it operates as the Detect Magic Spell.


The spell doesn't differentiate between which plane the caster or the magical subject being detected is on at all. It clearly picks up ALL spells (not just physical spells in the physical plane and just astral in the astral), it picks up ALL mana barriers regardless of if the user is only active on the physical where they don't actually have an effect, it picks up ALL foci (even inactive?), and it picks up ALL spirits, whether in physical or astral form.

Furthermore, there are direct contradictions. The power says it detects dual natured beings, while the spell says that Awakened characters or critters are not detected (presumably intended to convey that you can't detect magical power that isn't active, but dual-natured critters ARE active magically).

I just... what the hell is going on here? Better question, since the only way an adept of any sort can ever enter the astral is via a dose of Shade, what the hell are they going on about detecing magic "on the same plane" for? You can't GET on the astral except via a rare and expensive alchemically produced magical compound that only crops up in one book and is an extreme exception! Why would they differentiate in the first place? Are they perhaps intending it to work on the astral only when you're astrally perceiving? And why would they explain how it works, and then say it operates like the spell which works completely differently than how they just explained it?

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/dead.gif)

~Umi

1) The spell and power both work on the same plane as the user. No spell or power can be used on both planes at the same time.

2) Dual-natured means active on both planes at the same time, whether through the Dual-Natured power or actively Assensing. This is different from simply having a magic rating. I don't know how you got confused by this.

3) For last paragraph.... They are detecting magic on the Physical Plane, where they currently are. It has nothing to do with the Astral Plane. I think you really confused yourself somehow.

EDIT: If you have the Power or the Spell and change which plane you are paying attention to (Mage that Assenses while the spell is active) nothing about the spell/power changes. You would have to recast a version of the spell for the Astral, in the case of Mages. In the case of Adepts, the power would only include the Astral if (s)he were actively Assensing (using Astral Sight power) or Dual-Natured.

[kzt]

Absolutely wrong. The rules are abundantly clear on this, and you're blurb about "prongs" is completely irrelevant.

ItNW is treated as Hardened Armor of a value. Hardened Armor is Armor that ignores any damage that is converted to stun. Elemental effects halve armor. So you have an elemental effect that halves armor, which includes Hardened Armor, which ItNW is. It's a logical progression of rules, nothing more.

"Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all
weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter
powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity
does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen."

Can you explain exactly how S&S is magical? Given that a spirit has exactly zero impact armor, how much do they have after it is divided? And where it says that magical defenses that render someone immune should be divided?

And yes, S&S uses glue, which has it's own logical issues (like most body armor and clothing is not a conductor), I was thinking of tasers. Which typically also work just fine for people using that same rules interp. People also use S&S & tasers against drones, which has even more logical issues. Mostly involving the issue that tasers don't stick to armored vehicles worth a damn and even paint tends to have a rather drastic effect on conduction.

It's house rules all the way down.

[Umidori]

1) The spell and power both work on the same plane as the user. No spell or power can be used on both planes at the same time.

Citation please.

2) Dual-natured means active on both planes at the same time, whether through the Dual-Natured power or actively Assensing. This is different from simply having a magic rating. I don't know how you got confused by this.

I wasn't aware that I was confused by it. What gave you this impression? Please quote what I wrote that suggested this to you.

3) For last paragraph.... They are detecting magic on the Physical Plane, where they currently are. It has nothing to do with the Astral Plane. I think you really confused yourself somehow.

Really. So how exactly does the spell detect wards and magical lodges - constructs that do not exist on the physical plane? They may incorporate physical objects, namely their anchors and the magical goods required to create a lodge, but as magical constructs themselves they only exist on the astral. For that matter, the spell also states it detects ALL spirits within range, not all spirits which are physically active. This would include astral spirits.

Nothing in the spell's wording denotes any limitations of detection to one plane of existence or another. If a separate rule designates such a limitation, please cite it.

~Umi

[Dakka Dakka]

"Immunity to Normal Weapons: This immunity applies to all
weapons that are not magical (weapon foci, spells, adept or critter
powers). If the critter has the Allergy weakness, then the Immunity
does not apply against non-magical attacks made using the allergen."

Can you explain exactly how S&S is magical? Given that a spirit has exactly zero impact armor, how much do they have after it is divided? And where it says that magical defenses that render someone immune should be divided?

SnS is not magical, so ItNW works. Contrary to the name it is not actual immunity but hardened armor against mundane attacks, read the rules about immunity above those you quoted. The hardened armor works just like any other hardened armor. If the damage from the SnS projectile exceeds the modified armor rating you have to roll, if not the projectile does nothing. This means that SnS (6S(e)) would work normally against any spirit up to and including Force 6. Above that you need more than one net hit.

Citation please.

Really? This is SR Magic 101. Here you go:

A magician in the physical world can only cast spells on targets
that are in the physical world. Similarly, a magician in astral space can only cast spells on targets that have an astral form (though the auras of things in the physical world can be seen, auras alone cannot be targeted). An astrally perceiving (or otherwise dual-natured) magician can cast spells on a target in either the physical world or in astral space. An astral target can only be affected by mana spells—even if the magician is in the physical world astrally perceiving—as it has no physical presence.

Really. So how exactly does the spell detect wards and magical lodges - constructs that do not exist on the physical plane? They may incorporate physical objects, namely their anchors and the magical goods required to create a lodge, but as magical constructs themselves they only exist on the astral. For that matter, the spell also states it detects ALL spirits within range, not all spirits which are physically active. This would include astral spirits.

You may want to look at the rules for wards and lodges. Both are dual-natured mana barriers. They exist on both planes. An astral spirit however can only be detected by the spell if the spell is cast on the astral plane.

Nothing in the spell's wording denotes any limitations of detection to one plane of existence or another. If a separate rule designates such a limitation, please cite it.

See above.

[Umidori]

You are correct, a spell cast in the physical world can only be cast on physical targets, and one cast in the astral on astral targets. You are also correct on the wards count, it seems.

That said, once cast on a valid target, the effect of the spell in question is that the target gains a form of psychic sense which operates as described in the spell description. And the spell description clearly states it detects "all foci, spells, wards, magical lodges, and spirits within range of the sense".

If we apply your interpretation to other spells, similar questions arise. Does Detect Enemies not detect astral spirits who are out to kill you? Does the Detect Individual spell not pick up astral spirits who are otherwise legal targets? And what if you Detect a specific Individual who is currently astrally projecting? Do you merely detect their body?

~Umi

[Shinobi Killfist]

And to build on Neraph's point (never thought I'd say that), try telling someone that he can't take his (fleshy, completely mundane looking) hands into the fancy cocktail party.

While adepts may not be better than sams in most situations, they certainly have their uses.

~R~

That is a advantage and it is not nearly as big as people make out since you can get a lot of guns past security. Seriously orc with a 12 strength, 6 levels of critical strike, 3 levels of martial art DV does 15 DV. Sounds awesome and yeah it is 0 armor with sonic hands, but a guy with a SMG doing a simple long burst is doing 9 DV with 4 AP assuming APDS. The guy with the SMG will be rolling more dice, against less dice and then if he feels like it and the target is still up he can put another 4 rounds into the target or a second target. Will the martial art guy do more damage to a single target, well maybe but he is a pretty absurd exaggerated build for one purpose. SMG guy will probably kill more people in a combat thanks to range and complex vs simple action issues and he invested a lot less into being SMG guy then martial art guy did into giving himself deathblows. The thing is yeah he does a few extra DV well maybe not resisting 15 vs resisting 9 and 7 anyways even if we assume he does more damage so what, you generally only need to do 10ish boxes and a SMG gets you there a whole heck of a lot easier and quicker.

High DV martial art dude does have some other perks mainly a better chance to penetrate hardened armor, so if you need to take out a bus and he somehow can connect it will be more effective than a SMG. But this is far from broken. Investing a crap ton to be marginally better than random street sam X with a modified SMG does not scream broken to me. Unless you are saying the melee rules are broken they make a melee character nigh unusable without having to jump through a million hoops, and since they are a part of the genre they should be better represented.

[_Pax._]

The guy with the SMG will be [...]

... absolutely hosed by a Demolish Guns spell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Umidori]

The guy with the SMG will be [...]

... frisked at the door for weapons anywhere remotely important anytime he isn't breaking and entering. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

~Umi

[Neraph]

You are correct, a spell cast in the physical world can only be cast on physical targets, and one cast in the astral on astral targets. You are also correct on the wards count, it seems.

That said, once cast on a valid target, the effect of the spell in question is that the target gains a form of psychic sense which operates as described in the spell description. And the spell description clearly states it detects "all foci, spells, wards, magical lodges, and spirits within range of the sense".

If we apply your interpretation to other spells, similar questions arise. Does Detect Enemies not detect astral spirits who are out to kill you? Does the Detect Individual spell not pick up astral spirits who are otherwise legal targets? And what if you Detect a specific Individual who is currently astrally projecting? Do you merely detect their body?

~Umi

If casting a spell and using a Power can't break the Planes Barrier (with the notable exception of Astral Gateway) than what makes you think the spell/Power effect can? Do Stunballs affect all spirits that happen to be in the Astral AoE when the spell is cast on the Physical? How about the inverse?

In short: no.

[_Pax._]

... frisked at the door for weapons anywhere remotely important anytime he isn't breaking and entering. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

~Umi

That, too. While you might get away with bringing a pistol, especially a holdout - or a cybergun - into a nice restaurant or whatever, trying it with an SMG is just asking to be escorted to the door by a large, burly troll who is NOT smiling.

[Umidori]

If casting a spell and using a Power can't break the Planes Barrier (with the notable exception of Astral Gateway) than what makes you think the spell/Power effect can? Do Stunballs affect all spirits that happen to be in the Astral AoE when the spell is cast on the Physical? How about the inverse?

In short: no.

You cannot target the astral spirits unless you are astrally active, but if you target Joe Spelltarget who's standing in the middle of a group of astral spirits, I don't see why it wouldn't affect them all.

The inverse should also hold. And why not? It's a mana spell - it affects the target's life force directly. It's not like Stunbolt or Manabolt cast on the physical plane actually operates through a physical mechanism. It's operating astrally, shredding the target's mana and lifeforce. That's why they kill cleanly - they don't have an actual physical effect.

~Umi

[Neraph]

You cannot target the astral spirits unless you are astrally active, but if you target Joe Spelltarget who's standing in the middle of a group of astral spirits, I don't see why it wouldn't affect them all.

The inverse should also hold. And why not? It's a mana spell - it affects the target's life force directly. It's not like Stunbolt or Manabolt cast on the physical plane actually operates through a physical mechanism. It's operating astrally, shredding the target's mana and lifeforce. That's why they kill cleanly - they don't have an actual physical effect.

~Umi

The nicest way I can think of to say this is: You're just wrong.

[Umidori]

That's fine if I am. I've been known to make mistakes. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

I genuinely would like to know if I am. I'll peruse the rules, see if I can spot my error, but if anyone can direct me to a spot that proves me wrong quicker than I can browse, would be great.

~Umi

[Neraph]

The quickest thing I can think of is how spells worked in 3rd Ed. I can't remember a specific place where it definitively mentions this in 4th, but I'll work on it.

EDIT: It's like trying to prove something by Circumstantial Evidence..

[kzt]

The nicest way I can think of to say this is: You're just wrong.

Yes. You can't damage astral entities from the physical world and astral entities can't damage anything on the physical world. You have to be active on the astral plane to damage anything there, and at that point astral entities can damage you and vice versa.

[Dakka Dakka]

The thing is that, while the caster can be dual-natured and thus affect either plane, spells are not (never mentioned as such). Thus they can only affect one plane even though the caster may be able to target both planes.

[Shinobi Killfist]

... absolutely hosed by a Demolish Guns spell. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

... frisked at the door for weapons anywhere remotely important anytime he isn't breaking and entering. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

~Umi

A demolish spell? The mage would have better odds just stunbolting me, why would he blow up your SMG.

As for frisked at the door, yeah if your big thing is I can use my stuff anywhere um good for you. The average street sam will still be effective in that narrow range of getting in a fight after being checked by security. But he will be better for less at every other fight option, the stuff that comes up more often. And there are a lot of guns you can get past most security, if it is a full pat down at every door I suspect you and I play different games. And it is not like there aren't things that limit magic in a similar way. Background count will but a hit in this guys power just as much as having to switch to a small concealable weapon will crap the style of a street sam.

This is far from a broken power. And sadly this is comparing it to the closest archetype. His look at me I can do this anywhere thing looks kind of lame compared to a mage.

[Umidori]

@kzt and Dakka

Again, please, where does it say that?

I'll certainly concede you can't target astral forms without being able to see them, which requires astrally perceiving and being astrally active. But how does it make any sense for a mana spell, something which doesn't actually manifest on the physical plane, something which damages foes by shredding their astral auras and mana matrixes, to not affect astral forms caught in the radius by chance?

~Umi

[_Pax._]

A demolish spell? The mage would have better odds just stunbolting me, why would he blow up your SMG.

For one, Demolish is AoE.

For two, the mage almost certainly isn't working alone. When a pair of F5 spirits materialise next to the SMG wielder, well, let's just say "someone's about to have a very bad day."

And there are a lot of guns you can get past most security, if it is a full pat down at every door I suspect you and I play different games.

MAD scanner. Explosive sniffer.

Background count will but a hit in this guys power just as much as having to switch to a small concealable weapon will crap the style of a street sam.

Background count is goin to be a lot less common than metal detectors.

[kzt]

Unfortunately in virtually every combat niche for adepts there are other people who just do it better and/or cheaper. Mostly mages, but bioware guys can do a lot of it too, not to mention the "less refined" option of cyber.

[Umidori]

It really depends on the sort of game you play. You said it yourself, "in virtually every combat niche."

Short of breaking in, a cybered up bruiser is NEVER getting into a high security area without having their 'ware deactivated or even removed. A bioware guy can keep most of his mods undetected, but he isn't going to get a katana or an SMG in - hell, he might not even get a pistol in. So unless you're a bioware brawler who fights unarmed, no dice.

If you play the sort of game where most of the time you're just shooting or skulking your way in, that's fine. More power to ya. Other folks might play games where they enter into negotiations with high level crime bosses or corporate managers, or where they need to hide in plain sight or get inside high security areas without raising any eyebrows or tripping any alarms.

Adepts might be less than optimal for running and gunning, and your campaigns might consist chiefly of that sort of gameplay. But for those who play with a greater focus on outwitting foes rather than outgunning them, Adepts are amazing. Busting into a corporate research lab, making off with vital data, and neutralizing any security you encounter on the way without taking a hit is good. Walking into the lab and discreetly copying the needed data without anyone suspecting a thing, AND still being able to fight very well (if not as amazingly well as a street sam) if the shit does hit the fan, is even better.

~Umi