Actual Licenses?, Let it never be said that a SIN always goes unrewarded.... Options

[tsuyoshikentsu]

So here's kind of a weird question. Restricted gear requires licenses. Okay, sure; most of us just fake them. What about SINners who, you know, actually qualify to get licenses, though? What would the process be? How much would it cost? Would it be possible to start with them at creation? Is there anything in the books on this, or is it strictly houserule territory?

[VykosDarkSoul]

I would assume you could go about getting them in an entirely legal manner should you choose. But here is the catch, you fire a bullet and kill goon A. Lone Star matches the striations on the bullet to the gun that is registered to you. Sorry.

[Miri]

I would assume you could go about getting them in an entirely legal manner should you choose. But here is the catch, you fire a bullet and kill goon A. Lone Star matches the striations on the bullet to the gun that is registered to you. Sorry.

Which is why you change out the barrel and firing pin, if it doesn't use caseless ammo, of the weapon after you get your license and keep it in a safe for when you have to re-qualify. Good reason to have some ranks in Armorer eh?

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Or, you know, have the Erased quality. Too bad that ballistic evidence just keeps disappearing.

I mean, I realize that it presents its own set of challenges; in fact, these kinds of things are what lead me to believe that going this route wouldn't actually negate the disadvantageous nature of the SINner quality. (That is to say, being legal doesn't mean you get a free pass on certain common SR problems.)

[VykosDarkSoul]

Or, you know, have the Erased quality. Too bad that ballistic evidence just keeps disappearing.

I mean, I realize that it presents its own set of challenges; in fact, these kinds of things are what lead me to believe that going this route wouldn't actually negate the disadvantageous nature of the SINner quality. (That is to say, being legal doesn't mean you get a free pass on certain common SR problems.)

It does, however, make border crossings that much simpler! unelss of course, you have a criminal SIN.....

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Which is a higher point cost, and for good reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't want to get distracted, though. Is this a possible thing in SR4A?

[_Pax._]

I would assume you could go about getting them in an entirely legal manner should you choose. But here is the catch, you fire a bullet and kill goon A. Lone Star matches the striations on the bullet to the gun that is registered to you. Sorry.

... kinda hard to do, if the gun in question is a laser weapon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also hard to do, if you're using a smoothbore (like a shotgun, for example).

[VykosDarkSoul]

... kinda hard to do, if the gun in question is a laser weapon. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Also hard to do, if you're using a smoothbore (like a shotgun, for example).

Right right, i was just throwing out a random example i thought of (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Which is a higher point cost, and for good reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I don't want to get distracted, though. Is this a possible thing in SR4A?

I would allow it in my game, provided you had a) the contacts and b) the story to back it up

[tsuyoshikentsu]

So you would require contacts? Is that in the rules?

Basically what I really want to know is, is there a process hidden in the books somewhere or am I going to have to figure out how I want to run this on my own?

[phlapjack77]

I think this is never mentioned as an actual rule in the SR4 books. The authors didn't consider that some Shadowrunners would want to be doing legal stuff it seems (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Someone said that these kinds of rules are in the SR3 books, if you're looking for guidelines. I've seen ideas introduced to have a real license cost as much as a fake one.

[_Pax._]

I've seen ideas introduced to have a real license cost as much as a fake one.

I'd charge a lot less than that. Rx20, perhaps. Remember, an actual license ties the object(s) in question to your SIN ...

[kzt]

I would assume you could go about getting them in an entirely legal manner should you choose. But here is the catch, you fire a bullet and kill goon A. Lone Star matches the striations on the bullet to the gun that is registered to you. Sorry.

Sure, when they find your pistol. Which means when they have enough evidence to get a search warrant for your residence. Which is likely to occur never. And when they do it seems that there is no ballistics match as that gun was turned into razor blades a few hours after the shooting.

[phlapjack77]

I'd charge a lot less than that. Rx20, perhaps. Remember, an actual license ties the object(s) in question to your SIN ...

True true. Although the costs here are so small compared to everything else, I don't think it matters too much...

[All4BigGuns]

I'd charge a lot less than that. Rx20, perhaps. Remember, an actual license ties the object(s) in question to your SIN ...

An actual license would not have a rating, since the rating of a fake license is there to determine how well it passes inspection and checking. A 'real' license would always pass muster since it is completely bonafide.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Well, that's blindingly obvious. I can't believe I missed it; thanks for pointing it out.

So what would that license cost, then?

[All4BigGuns]

Well, that's blindingly obvious. I can't believe I missed it; thanks for pointing it out.

So what would that license cost, then?

Honestly, it should just be rolled into lifestyle and said that you have them. Anything further is just trying to create another needless money sink.

[_Pax._]

Honestly, it should just be rolled into lifestyle and said that you have them. Anything further is just trying to create another needless money sink.

So if you're a SINner, but you have a Squatter lifestyle ... you can have every license you could imagine? Pilot, Firearms, Concealed Carry, a Medical Practitioner's license, maybe a Magical Practitioner's license, and so on?

Wow, those licenses must come CHEAP.

[Inu]

Sure, when they find your pistol. Which means when they have enough evidence to get a search warrant for your residence. Which is likely to occur never. And when they do it seems that there is no ballistics match as that gun was turned into razor blades a few hours after the shooting.

Pretty sure that there's some fluff about a gun license meaning they have the ballistics on file. That might be from an earlier edition, though. Anything in 4e about licenses like that?

[kzt]

Well, it might be, the guys who write this stuff have no idea how gun laws actually work or why. And no, it still won't help after I clean the barrel with a stainless steel bore brush and shoot a few thousand rounds through it.

[_Pax._]

If they have the ballistics on file, and that file says you were the last legal owner but you can't providelegal paperwork proving you sold it to someone else?

You're on the hook for whatever the gun was used for.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Actually, here's a thought, though: Do they really keep track of that?

As we see in the sample characters (the Gunslinger Adept has the most obvious incidence of this), you don't have a license for your particular gun--you just have a license for a particular make. To me, this implies that what licenses are really for is the right to posses a firearm of a restricted make. In other words, it seems that licenses are mostly there for the purposes of Lone Star looking at you and going, "Are you allowed to own that, citizen?"

EDIT: ...You know what, never mind. The Street Sam has one for each Predator, the Enforcer just has one Gun License, and the Weapons Specialist just has two "Licences." What.

[Aerospider]

So if you're a SINner, but you have a Squatter lifestyle ... you can have every license you could imagine? Pilot, Firearms, Concealed Carry, a Medical Practitioner's license, maybe a Magical Practitioner's license, and so on?

Wow, those licenses must come CHEAP.

Some licences are going to need skill ranks. They don't hand out real pilot licences at the Stuffer Shack counter. Also, some licences would necessitate membership of a regulatory body - it's fine to pilot things for a hobby, but surgery is another matter. So if your genuine SIN doesn't say you're a genuine doctor of medicine you can't easily justify having the associated licence.

[TheOOB]

The impression I got was that a SINner could get most restricted gear without too much trouble. It would just require some time, money, paperwork, and perhaps a competence check(like getting a drivers license).

Forbidden items you'd actually have to have a profession reason to own(such as a locksmith owning lockpicks).

[tsuyoshikentsu]

A few folks have mentioned a possible reference in an older edition--anyone know where that would be?

[SpellBinder]

I'd think the cost on a legitimate licence should vary with the country/corp, and depending on the license. When I was in high school there was one foreign exchange student from Europe who was keen on getting her drivers license in the states as opposed to back home. I don't know how accurate her info was, but she said that to initially get a drivers license in her country cost the equivalent of USD$2,000.00 where in my area it was about $20 (in 1990's money).

[Umidori]

My family also had an exchange student years back, from Germany. He likewise cited the high costs of taking the tests there, the equivalent of multiple thousands of dollars. In Germany (and much of Europe in general) car ownership is far less prevalent than in America. Gas costs more (because their governments don't artificially lower the prices), traffic is more stringently policed, licenses are harder to qualify for and afford, and there's a lot more public transportation combined with less urban sprawl and more walkable or bikeable distances. The net effect is that there is a smaller percentage of the population who own and drive vehicles, but those who do are also significantly better drivers.

That said, I've also met a certain young and wealthy woman from Turkey who was legitimately surprised and annoyed that she couldn't just buy a driver's license here in the states (this being within the past five years). And don't even get me started on drivers in mainland Asia - that shit's scary.

~Umi

[Aerospider]

The impression I got was that a SINner could get most restricted gear without too much trouble. It would just require some time, money, paperwork, and perhaps a competence check(like getting a drivers license).

Forbidden items you'd actually have to have a profession reason to own(such as a locksmith owning lockpicks).

You might not have meant this, but just for the record, skill checks are not for run-of-the-mill situations so one shouldn't have to actually make a roll to qualify for a drivers licence.

[Jeremiah Kraye]

I've always wanted to make up a character after the ghost in the shell character that flew into the country legally with a custom cyber-arm with inbuilt pressure blast shotgun that loaded quarters, or just about anything.

[ggodo]

In one of my games, the whole team except for the SINner got stopped at the airport. He then had to find a way to get them out before foreignt officials figured out who they really were. T
That session was a ton of fun, as both he and the rest of the team tried to think of ways to escape.

[_Pax._]

Actually, here's a thought, though: Do they really keep track of that?

The Sixth World is, if anything, more intrusive, and less protective of privacy, than the real world rightnow.

And right here, real-world, in the U.S. ...? They do in fact already keep track of that stuff - just, not centralised as much as fingerprint databases are. Firearms manufacturers have to keep (and IIRC, give to the ATF or FBI) a "fingerprint" for each weapon they manufacture - a record of the barrel marks it leaves, plus it's serial number. Gun sellers have to keep records of which serial number gets sold to which person.

Put those together with ubiquitous database cross-checking via the matrix, and extensive SIN registries? Yeah. They do indeed keep track of that.

As we see in the sample characters [...]

Full stop. Don't even ponder using the sample characters as examples here.

[Sengir]

And don't even get me started on drivers in mainland Asia - that shit's scary.

Well, Americans already start hyperventilating in German traffic...but that seems to be somewhat symmetric, when my brother got home with his Texan license I really wished for an ejection seat (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[_Pax._]

Some licences are going to need skill ranks. They don't hand out real pilot licences at the Stuffer Shack counter. Also, some licences would necessitate membership of a regulatory body - it's fine to pilot things for a hobby, but surgery is another matter. So if your genuine SIN doesn't say you're a genuine doctor of medicine you can't easily justify having the associated licence.

That wasn't my point.

Even if you have Medicine 7 (Surgery +2) ... if you have a Squatter or Street lifestyle for whatever reason, I think you can't afford the application fee to get a medical license as a surgeon. Nor the renewal fee to keep any prior-existing license going. Ergo, "just roll it into lifestyle" doesn't always work.

You might not have meant this, but just for the record, skill checks are not for run-of-the-mill situations so one shouldn't have to actually make a roll to qualify for a drivers licence.

No, but having 1+ rank in the relevant skill is a reasonable prerequisite. Or else, proof of owning (and being able to use) the relevant Skillsoft, I suppose. Either way, IC it boils down to "prove you can do this without defaulting".

[All4BigGuns]

And there is a seriously major problem. Too many people think that defaulting means not being able to do something at all, yet at the same time, those same people complain when people have more than a rank or two in more than one or two skills.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

And there is a seriously major problem. Too many people think that defaulting means not being able to do something at all, yet at the same time, those same people complain when people have more than a rank or two in more than one or two skills.

Defaulting works for many things. After all, your First Parachute Jump is a Defaulting Roll. However, I, for one, believe in the Skill Rank Descriptions.
A Doctor WILL have a Rank 3 (Professional) in Medicine, BEFORE he gets (or at least as part of getting) his License. He might even have a Speicalty as well.

[VykosDarkSoul]

And there is a seriously major problem. Too many people think that defaulting means not being able to do something at all, yet at the same time, those same people complain when people have more than a rank or two in more than one or two skills.

Defaulting doesnt mean you cant do it. It means you can try but you arent very good at it, thats why incompetent specifies that you CANT default.

[All4BigGuns]

Defaulting doesnt mean you cant do it. It means you can try but you arent very good at it, thats why incompetent specifies that you CANT default.

This I know, but people wanting the "do it without defaulting" seem to always pop up (as in the case prior to my last post), and as I mentioned, those same people make complaints about "overpowered" and other such drek when they see more than a few skills over 1 or 2. Such things irritate the ever-loving piss out of me.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

This I know, but people wanting the "do it without defaulting" seem to always pop up (as in the case prior to my last post), and as I mentioned, those same people make complaints about "overpowered" and other such drek when they see more than a few skills over 1 or 2. Such things irritate the ever-loving piss out of me.

Out of curiousity, How many Skills are you currently performing at a PROFESSIONAL rating at? MOST people will never have more than a few skills at or above a 3 in game terms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[VykosDarkSoul]

Out of curiousity, How many Skills are you currently performing at a PROFESSIONAL rating at? MOST people will never have more than a few skills at or above a 3 in game terms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Thats generaly the way i play it, i have 1 skill higher then all the rest (we will say a 5) mabye 1 or 2 skills at 3, and the rest at 1 or 2. (sans specialties and enhancements of course)

[kzt]

Actually, here's a thought, though: Do they really keep track of that?

As we see in the sample characters (the Gunslinger Adept has the most obvious incidence of this), you don't have a license for your particular gun--you just have a license for a particular make. To me, this implies that what licenses are really for is the right to posses a firearm of a restricted make. In other words, it seems that licenses are mostly there for the purposes of Lone Star looking at you and going, "Are you allowed to own that, citizen?"

EDIT: ...You know what, never mind. The Street Sam has one for each Predator, the Enforcer just has one Gun License, and the Weapons Specialist just has two "Licences." What.

You expect it to make sense?

In the real world, people are licensed. That's why you have a drivers license, not a ford f-150 license. You also get a license that allows you to carry a concealed weapon in public. The only place I know that restricts the weapon by serial number is Las Vegas, though NYC probably does too for the politically connected few who can get one. Everywhere else it's allows any pistol, or even any weapon. Nobody collects bullets, because the characteristics of the barrel change over life, and it doesn't work anyhow. NY State spent an estimated 40 million dollars on their CoBis program (which was cartridge collection), which resulted in exactly zero prosecutions over the 12 year life of the program.

[Warlordtheft]

So if you're a SINner, but you have a Squatter lifestyle ... you can have every license you could imagine? Pilot, Firearms, Concealed Carry, a Medical Practitioner's license, maybe a Magical Practitioner's license, and so on?

Wow, those licenses must come CHEAP.

I'd say it was included in middle or higher lifestyles. For lower lifestyles I'd say probably about 1,000 nuyen per liscensed weapon and is good for 1 year. Runners that are part of Ares might get one as part of their day job.

[All4BigGuns]

I can see the 1000 per license but with one alteration to the above. Make the lifestyles available for not having to waste cred start at low (I can kinda agree with Street and Squatter having to pay, though in most cases that'd be moot since Street and Squatter are likely to be very rare lifestyles to be taken).

[StealthSigma]

I'd charge a lot less than that. Rx20, perhaps. Remember, an actual license ties the object(s) in question to your SIN ...

There should be no rating value for a legal license. Remember, the rating of a fake SIN/license is used to set a threshold for checks to determine its validity. I would say the pricing is probably somewhere between 50 and 100.

[_Pax._]

This I know, but people wanting the "do it without defaulting" seem to always pop up (as in the case prior to my last post), and as I mentioned, those same people make complaints about "overpowered" and other such drek when they see more than a few skills over 1 or 2. Such things irritate the ever-loving piss out of me.

Dragging in things from the other forum, are we? Bad form, Sir. Bad form.

Besides, all you need to "not default" is a 1. Not a 3, not a 4, not a 5. Just 1.

Out of curiousity, How many Skills are you currently performing at a PROFESSIONAL rating at? MOST people will never have more than a few skills at or above a 3 in game terms. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

The character he's referring to? Lemme count ... sixteen skills at 4, seven skills at 3. So, twenty-three skills at Professional or higher. Plus five Knowledges at 4, one at 3, and a language at 6.

In the real world, people are licensed. That's why you have a drivers license, not a ford f-150 license.

You forget that part of buying a license-required item is that you then have to register that weapon as being owned by you.

[Jeremiah Kraye]

Except why do you, a former accountant need restricted or illegal cyberware and an illegal weapon.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

I think that's starting to get into the oddness of the legal system. If we use modern times as an example, the answer is, who cares? You can legally own it, so if you want it, it's yours. SR's a different matter, of course, but I'd guess that the same thing applies. That is to say, if you're legally allowed to own it, they don't ask too many questions unless they've got a reason to.

EDIT: This only applies for Restricted gear, of course. Forbidden is a whole other turkey.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Thats generaly the way i play it, i have 1 skill higher then all the rest (we will say a 5) mabye 1 or 2 skills at 3, and the rest at 1 or 2. (sans specialties and enhancements of course)

Me too... My goal is to eventually raise them all to a 3, but it never works out that way in game. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Ahh Well.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

The character he's referring to? Lemme count ... sixteen skills at 4, seven skills at 3. So, twenty-three skills at Professional or higher. Plus five Knowledges at 4, one at 3, and a language at 6.

It was not a comment about Characters, it was a comment about People. Very Few People have more than a few skills at the professional Level or above. VERY FEW... Saying that, my character design philosophy follows that trend. I would LIKE my characters to have all their skills at 3+, but it is just not all that realistic. What tends to happen is that I get my focus at 3-4 (possibly raising them as the game progresses (occasionally a 5, and rarely even a 6, might creep in there, but only if I have the concept to back it up), and then I take skills that support the rest of the concept at 1's and 2's. My goal is to eventually raise those to a 3+, but as I said previously, that rarely happens. And for good reason. Very, Very, Very few people can claim such skill in so many varied endeavors.

[_Pax._]

I honestly think skills should cost a lot more to raise, including in character gen. "New rank squared", for example. Flipside, I'd like to see each skill rank contribute more than 1 die to your pools. That'd involve a radical redesign of the entire game, though.

...

Maybe something like that will happen in 5th. Or 6th. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I honestly think skills should cost a lot more to raise, including in character gen. "New rank squared", for example. Flipside, I'd like to see each skill rank contribute more than 1 die to your pools. That'd involve a radical redesign of the entire game, though.

...

Maybe something like that will happen in 5th. Or 6th. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

I am actually okay with the way it works now, as long as people do not abuse it (Guess what, they do)...

I would lower the limits, though. 1 Skill at 5, or 2 at 4. Everything else at 3 or less. No group higher than 3 at chargen.
This would work, I think. You would see a lot more diversity at that point. And characters would make a lot more sense.

Generally how I approach Character Gen now. Most of my characters follow this guideline, and they are pretty good with these limits.

[_Pax._]

Well, for combat (magic aside), part of the problem is 4th's inflated Armor values. Someone with Body 4, wearing an Armor Jacket (described as "the most popular armor on the streets"), is getting 12 dice to soak, which is a generally reliable 4 hits. Then factor in their Reaction+Dodge, and, you can see why shooters want die pools in the 20s, if they can pull it off.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, for combat (magic aside), part of the problem is 4th's inflated Armor values. Someone with Body 4, wearing an Armor Jacket (described as "the most popular armor on the streets"), is getting 12 dice to soak, which is a generally reliable 4 hits. Then factor in their Reaction+Dodge, and, you can see why shooters want die pools in the 20s, if they can pull it off.

No, I cannot see that. I get along perfectly fine with my 10-12 Dice in Firearms. If they are Dodging, they are not Shooting back at me. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

I have yet to see Armor as causing a major problem. Of course, we do not see crazy levels of Armor at our table, either. As you said, the Armor Jacket is the most popular for a reason (I actually think the Long Coat takes that distinction at our table, however). (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Damned Double Post... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Snow_Fox]

Licenses exist to regulate who has what. Just saying you want somewthing makes the authorities look at you and say 'why' but a lot depends on what the locals want to control. For example when I lived in NY it was easy to get a liquor license and very hard to get permission for a hand gun. By comparrison in PA where I live now liquor is heavily regulated and hand guns are much easier to get. i'm fond of saying new york wants you drunk not armed, PA wants you armed not drunk, I'm a New Yorker.

In general the permits do not make it easier to catch you BUT failure to have them creates other reasons for the authortities to look into you after the caxt hyou for some little thing.

For example if any of my guns were invovled in a shooting no one would know. There isn't a record of them but if I was taken into custody and my guns could be matched up- standard police work, but the permitt does nothing to help them find the criminal BUT the gang bangers who feel they don't need a permitt or can't qualify just by carrying they give the police a case against them.

Like driving with a suspended license. The guy getting into a car at Stuff Shack- there's no idea if he's got al icesnes or insurance but when you pull him over for reckless driving it adds to the charge sheet and gives them an excuse to give him more grief.

Lastly in financial matters anything done with $10k or higher in CASH must be reported to the government looking for money laundering BUT if an investigation of your finances after osmething else comes up- shows a bunch of transaction just UNDER the 10k threshold can lead to other charges of trying to avoid Federal regulators. Likewise securities cannot be purchased with cash. At least once am onth I have to explain to a lcient that I cannot accept cash/money order/bank checks. to open qan acocunt due to federal money laundering laws.

[kzt]

Well, for combat (magic aside), part of the problem is 4th's inflated Armor values. Someone with Body 4, wearing an Armor Jacket (described as "the most popular armor on the streets"), is getting 12 dice to soak, which is a generally reliable 4 hits. Then factor in their Reaction+Dodge, and, you can see why shooters want die pools in the 20s, if they can pull it off.

In addition, characteristics are far too cheap compared to skills. I think Franks was right that skills should be at least 50% cheaper, or characteristics at least twice as expensive.

[The Jopp]

I would assume you could go about getting them in an entirely legal manner should you choose. But here is the catch, you fire a bullet and kill goon A. Lone Star matches the striations on the bullet to the gun that is registered to you. Sorry.

Thats why you buy a LASER rifle legally.

[darthmord]

The Sixth World is, if anything, more intrusive, and less protective of privacy, than the real world rightnow.

And right here, real-world, in the U.S. ...? They do in fact already keep track of that stuff - just, not centralised as much as fingerprint databases are. Firearms manufacturers have to keep (and IIRC, give to the ATF or FBI) a "fingerprint" for each weapon they manufacture - a record of the barrel marks it leaves, plus it's serial number. Gun sellers have to keep records of which serial number gets sold to which person.

Put those together with ubiquitous database cross-checking via the matrix, and extensive SIN registries? Yeah. They do indeed keep track of that.

Where did you hear that tripe about firearms manufacturers being required to give a 'gun fingerprint' for each weapon they manufacture?

There are such things that are required by some localities (who want to trample over basic rights) but nothing like that on a nationwide scale. Each locality that has such a gun registry is also mulling pulling the plug because they cost millions of dollars to run/maintain and the 'fingerprint' changes over time / use / replacement parts and there is no requirement to update said firearm's entry by the owner...

Now part of the sale (from an FFL) requires serial numbers and such along with a background check. But even there, there is no requirement to provide a 'gun fingerprint' to the FBI or BATFE.

[CanadianWolverin...]

I am actually okay with the way it works now, as long as people do not abuse it (Guess what, they do)...

I would lower the limits, though. 1 Skill at 5, or 2 at 4. Everything else at 3 or less. No group higher than 3 at chargen.
This would work, I think. You would see a lot more diversity at that point. And characters would make a lot more sense.

Generally how I approach Character Gen now. Most of my characters follow this guideline, and they are pretty good with these limits.

Oh man, I would think that would break Shadowrun, the restrictions on higher numbers are already enough, by pushing the boundary of rule of cool: In this case, sometimes for a player its just cool to throw a comparatively ridiculous number of D6, IMHO.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Oh man, I would think that would break Shadowrun, the restrictions on higher numbers are already enough, by pushing the boundary of rule of cool: In this case, sometimes for a player its just cool to throw a comparatively ridiculous number of D6, IMHO.

Does not break it at all, in my opinion. It actually allows one to make a well-rounded character than makes sense, in comparison to the characters I have seen in the past who just try for the biggest dice pool, BECAUSE THEY CAN, with no rationale to their background. It gets very annoying.

Why do you think it would break the game to have stricter limits? I am curious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[kzt]

Why do you think it would break the game to have stricter limits? I am curious. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

It makes characteristics far more important than they already are. Currently they are much cheaper way to raise skills than buying skill levels, you'd turn them into the only way.

[Lantzer]

It makes characteristics far more important than they already are. Currently they are much cheaper way to raise skills than buying skill levels, you'd turn them into the only way.

I think you are missing the point.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It makes characteristics far more important than they already are. Currently they are much cheaper way to raise skills than buying skill levels, you'd turn them into the only way.

I disagree...
And like Lantzer indicated. You are apparently missing the Point. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
No Worries.

[CanadianWolverin...]

Pfft, I don't think he was. I think he was bang on in his own way, my way of describing it was a bit more verbose as you know Tym. Heck, I stopped PMing ya because I thought you totally missed the point as well.

Fancy that, we have different ideas / opinions on restrictions, oh well...

Wait, licenses, restrictions - maybe this can be on topic after all. Somehow.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Pfft, I don't think he was. I think he was bang on in his own way, my way of describing it was a bit more verbose as you know Tym. Heck, I stopped PMing ya because I thought you totally missed the point as well.

Fancy that, we have different ideas / opinions on restrictions, oh well...

Wait, licenses, restrictions - maybe this can be on topic after all. Somehow.

Heh... I thought we quit PMing becasue we had discussed our opinions and moved on. *shrug* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
Of course we differ in implementation a bit. No worries, though.

[VykosDarkSoul]

if we dont regulate it, soon...there will be Cows with Guns!....and you dont want to see THEIR DP's..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

[_Pax._]

if we dont regulate it, soon...there will be Cows with Guns!....and you dont want to see THEIR DP's..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Too late ...

[Umidori]

According to Running Wild, cows have 3 Agility and their only combat skill is 1 Unarmed. But that's before you add the power of technology!

The cost and availability of a CAST kind of rules that out but an Orientation Goad will at least steer the bovine in the general direction you want. Next, a cyber torso allows you to add either an External Mount or an Articulated Weapon Arm, both very cheap, but tricky to find.

With the External Mount, slap on an AK-97 modified with a Gas-Vent 3 and an Auto-Adjusting Underbarrel Weight. With the Articulated Weapon Arm, go with the Ingram White Knight. Slap an external smartgun system on either one, and voila. Your future hamburger is now a mobile weapons platform. Pricetag of around 25,000 nuyen.

~Umi

[VykosDarkSoul]

According to Running Wild, cows have 3 Agility and their only combat skill is 1 Unarmed. But that's before you add the power of technology!

The cost and availability of a CAST kind of rules that out but an Orientation Goad will at least steer the bovine in the general direction you want. Next, a cyber torso allows you to add either an External Mount or an Articulated Weapon Arm, both very cheap, but tricky to find.

With the External Mount, slap on an AK-97 modified with a Gas-Vent 3 and an Auto-Adjusting Underbarrel Weight. With the Articulated Weapon Arm, go with the Ingram White Knight. Slap an external smartgun system on either one, and voila. Your future hamburger is now a mobile weapons platform. Pricetag of around 25,000 nuyen.

~Umi

Better make it a Brahmin....2 heads are better than one...right? hehe

[All4BigGuns]

According to Running Wild, cows have 3 Agility and their only combat skill is 1 Unarmed. But that's before you add the power of technology!

The cost and availability of a CAST kind of rules that out but an Orientation Goad will at least steer the bovine in the general direction you want. Next, a cyber torso allows you to add either an External Mount or an Articulated Weapon Arm, both very cheap, but tricky to find.

With the External Mount, slap on an AK-97 modified with a Gas-Vent 3 and an Auto-Adjusting Underbarrel Weight. With the Articulated Weapon Arm, go with the Ingram White Knight. Slap an external smartgun system on either one, and voila. Your future hamburger is now a mobile weapons platform. Pricetag of around 25,000 nuyen.

~Umi

Dang it, now I wanna build a bovine cyberzombie for an A.I. to take control of...

[VykosDarkSoul]

......

To err is human, to forgive is bovine

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

......

To err is human, to forgive is bovine

Sad... So Very, Very Sad... *Hangs Head* (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Midas]

So here's kind of a weird question. Restricted gear requires licenses. Okay, sure; most of us just fake them. What about SINners who, you know, actually qualify to get licenses, though? What would the process be? How much would it cost? Would it be possible to start with them at creation? Is there anything in the books on this, or is it strictly houserule territory?

Ahem, back to the topic at hand.

IRL, the cost of a licence varies depending on what it is - common stuff like drivers licences are cheap, but pilot licences are expensive to maintain as you generally need so many hours of flight time per year for your licence to remain valid. Medical licences don't come cheap either, I hear.

The way I run it, I handwave stuff like real drivers licences, but for game balance reasons charge 600 (the same as a R6 fake, but Availability 2) for more exotic licences such as Concealed Carry, Private Investigator, Medical, Pilot etc. There is nothing about the cost of legit licences in the RAW as far as I know, so I guess this is a house rule ...

[All4BigGuns]

Ahem, back to the topic at hand.

IRL, the cost of a licence varies depending on what it is - common stuff like drivers licences are cheap, but pilot licences are expensive to maintain as you generally need so many hours of flight time per year for your licence to remain valid. Medical licences don't come cheap either, I hear.

The way I run it, I handwave stuff like real drivers licences, but for game balance reasons charge 600 (the same as a R6 fake, but Availability 2) for more exotic licences such as Concealed Carry, Private Investigator, Medical, Pilot etc. There is nothing about the cost of legit licences in the RAW as far as I know, so I guess this is a house rule ...

On the second point, instead of 'for balance', which is erroneous as it wouldn't affect "balance" at all for all real licenses to be rolled into lifestyle of low or higher, why don't you just say what it is which is 'for yet another nuyen sink'?

[Midas]

On the second point, instead of 'for balance', which is erroneous as it wouldn't affect "balance" at all for all real licenses to be rolled into lifestyle of low or higher, why don't you just say what it is which is 'for yet another nuyen sink'?

Non-SINners have to pay for fake licences. I don't see why SINners (it IS a Negative Quality, remember) should be able to get licences for anything under the sun free of charge "just because".

I already said will handwave stuff such as Drivers Licences (which should be fairly common and cheap to get hold of), but if they want something exotic like that Concealed Carry permit (and their skills and background logically allow for it), the licensing body is still going to want to run a background check which costs spondoolies which, in the dystopian world of SR, someone has to pay for ... so why shouldn't that someone be Joe SINner who wants the damn licence in the first place?

[kzt]

Most everyone in SRworld carries a gun. It's why there are holsters noted even in the high fashion clothing descriptions.

[All4BigGuns]

Non-SINners have to pay for fake licences. I don't see why SINners (it IS a Negative Quality, remember) should be able to get licences for anything under the sun free of charge "just because".

I already said will handwave stuff such as Drivers Licences (which should be fairly common and cheap to get hold of), but if they want something exotic like that Concealed Carry permit (and their skills and background logically allow for it), the licensing body is still going to want to run a background check which costs spondoolies which, in the dystopian world of SR, someone has to pay for ... so why shouldn't that someone be Joe SINner who wants the damn licence in the first place?

Because there's the level of realism that is part of the game rules as a base that is just enough to keep things moderately sane while still maintaining the fun of the game, and then there's that which is 'super-duper-hyper-deluxe-ultra-realism' which does nothing but siphon the fun out and drain more money out of the characters' pockets (and there are enough things which do that as it is--really too many to be able to effectively save up for the good stuff with the pay levels a lot of people on the forums, both of them, advocate).

[Blackbird71]

You might not have meant this, but just for the record, skill checks are not for run-of-the-mill situations so one shouldn't have to actually make a roll to qualify for a drivers licence.

No, but having 1+ rank in the relevant skill is a reasonable prerequisite. Or else, proof of owning (and being able to use) the relevant Skillsoft, I suppose. Either way, IC it boils down to "prove you can do this without defaulting".

Believe me, I know plenty of people in IRL who "default" on driving, and still managed to get a license. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

if we dont regulate it, soon...there will be Cows with Guns!....and you dont want to see THEIR DP's..... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

Thank you, now I've got this song stuck in my head!

[_Pax._]

Non-SINners have to pay for fake licences. I don't see why SINners (it IS a Negative Quality, remember) should be able to get licences for anything under the sun free of charge "just because".

If you get a real license, then the Government and Corporations know about it.

[...] run a background check [...]

$20 to $50 U.S., real world, as of two years ago. (g/f had to have a background check for some of her volunteer work with afterschool programs.) That's for the full monty check, Federal level and everything.

[NiL_FisK_Urd]

No, but having 1+ rank in the relevant skill is a reasonable prerequisite. Or else, proof of owning (and being able to use) the relevant Skillsoft, I suppose. Either way, IC it boils down to "prove you can do this without defaulting".

Believe me, I know plenty of people in IRL who "default" on driving, and still managed to get a license. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Depends on where you live, most countries in Europe are pretty strict with driving licenses. In Austria, obtaining one costs ~1000€ and includes at least 12hrs of training with a certified instructor or 6 hrs with an instructor and driving 1000km under the supervision of an experienced driver (3000km if you are under 18).

[kzt]

It's like getting a hunting license. I can get a hunting license at Walmart for some trivial amount of money in a few minutes. Ah, but you want a German Hunting License? That's just a little bit more involved...

[Sengir]

The way I run it, I handwave stuff like real drivers licences, but for game balance reasons charge 600 (the same as a R6 fake, but Availability 2) for more exotic licences such as Concealed Carry, Private Investigator, Medical, Pilot etc.

Concealed Carry or private healthcare and policing is an exotic license? What kind of cyberpunk do you play? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Concealed Carry or private healthcare and policing is an exotic license? What kind of cyberpunk do you play? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Has nothing to do with Private Healthcare. Nor is it an exotic license. If you want to be a Doctor (and actually have a business as such), you MUST be licensed, at least here in America. I assume that it is the same pretty much around the world. Same for Engineers, Pilots, and Private Investigators for that matter. There are a LOT of Professions that actually require a License to work in the profession. And not all licenses are Expensive.

[Midas]

Most everyone in SRworld carries a gun. It's why there are holsters noted even in the high fashion clothing descriptions.

I guess Concealed Carry is not the best example, and would be specific to locations such as NY where gun control is much tighter ... Either way the point of Concealed Carry is that you can carry a hidden gun in a juristiction where you might be legally bound to carry any firearms you have openly. Bad example though ...

[Blackbird71]

Depends on where you live, most countries in Europe are pretty strict with driving licenses. In Austria, obtaining one costs ~1000€ and includes at least 12hrs of training with a certified instructor or 6 hrs with an instructor and driving 1000km under the supervision of an experienced driver (3000km if you are under 18).

In the U.S., the license cost itself isn't that high (the insurance is though), but there is a requirement of a drivers' training course, hours with an instructor, and hours with an experienced driver.

That still doesn't stop a large number of people who don't know what they're doing from getting on the road - they learn enough to get through the tests, then promptly forget it all once the license is in hand.

[Midas]

Because there's the level of realism that is part of the game rules as a base that is just enough to keep things moderately sane while still maintaining the fun of the game, and then there's that which is 'super-duper-hyper-deluxe-ultra-realism' which does nothing but siphon the fun out and drain more money out of the characters' pockets (and there are enough things which do that as it is--really too many to be able to effectively save up for the good stuff with the pay levels a lot of people on the forums, both of them, advocate).

If you handwave Licences for fake SINs at your table because you consider it "ultra-realism", then that is your perogative. There is no more book-keeping for buying and noting down a real licence for your real SIN as there is for buying and noting down a fake licence for your fake SIN. I really don't see a problem here.

As for taking money out of character's pockets, the real licence is a one-time deal, and unless you screw up royally and have to burn your real SIN you are good to go. It is periodically having to burn those fake SINs (with all their associated licences) that take much more out of characters pockets. Just the price of doing business, chummer.

[Midas]

If you get a real license, then the Government and Corporations know about it.

$20 to $50 U.S., real world, as of two years ago. (g/f had to have a background check for some of her volunteer work with afterschool programs.) That's for the full monty check, Federal level and everything.

Yes they do. So what?

I agree that the majority of real licences (and associated background checks) would probably not cost as much as 600 newyen and would in reality vary greatly depending what the licence is for. Some (such as Medical or Legal) might conecivably cost more.

The reason I just charge 600 and have done with it is, as I stated earlier, for game balance reasons, and I freely admit it is an abstraction. 600 newyen would get a non-SINner a R6 fake licence (availability notwithstanding), and even then might be prone to detection (please, let's not reopen that old DS can-of-worms), so the low availability and bullet-proofness of the real licence is still a better deal than for the R6 fake licence that the unfortunate non-SINner has to make do with if he can get one in the first place, but there you go.

This is the house rule I use, so you are free to handwave real licences (like All4) or write up a list of different licences and costs at your table, whatever floats your boat.

[Midas]

That still doesn't stop a large number of people who don't know what they're doing from getting on the road - they learn enough to get through the tests, then promptly forget it all once the license is in hand.

My old driving instructor told me that you start learning how to drive once you have the licence ... and yeah, don't get me started about idiots on the road!

[Shortstraw]

My old driving instructor told me that you start learning how to drive once you have the licence ... and yeah, don't get me started about idiots on the road!

You don't have to tell me I went to the US a few years back and 99.9% of people were driving on the wrong side of the road (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

[Sengir]

Has nothing to do with Private Healthcare. Nor is it an exotic license. If you want to be a Doctor (and actually have a business as such), you MUST be licensed, at least here in America. I assume that it is the same pretty much around the world. Same for Engineers, Pilots, and Private Investigators for that matter. There are a LOT of Professions that actually require a License to work in the profession. And not all licenses are Expensive.

I meant healthcare not as the insurance, but as the actual care for one's health...which seems to be mostly deregulated, or at least nobody enforces those regulations for the gazillion of street docs.
And private investigators are not even regulated right now, "investigators" or "detectives" do not have any privileges or duties above those of a normal citizen and accordingly everybody can call himself that.

So I'd handle many of these licenses more like certifications: Sure everybody can practice medicine, but having an actual degree or other certification of skills might draw more customers...

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

If you handwave Licences for fake SINs at your table because you consider it "ultra-realism", then that is your perogative. There is no more book-keeping for buying and noting down a real licence for your real SIN as there is for buying and noting down a fake licence for your fake SIN. I really don't see a problem here.

As for taking money out of character's pockets, the real licence is a one-time deal, and unless you screw up royally and have to burn your real SIN you are good to go. It is periodically having to burn those fake SINs (with all their associated licences) that take much more out of characters pockets. Just the price of doing business, chummer.

Actually, Most (it not all) licensed professionals have to renew their license periodically. Some have a 1 Yerar Re-licensing, others are longer. *shrug*

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

You don't have to tell me I went to the US a few years back and 99.9% of people were driving on the wrong side of the road (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

In the US, it the remaining 0.1% that you have to worry about. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Shortstraw]

Actually, Most (it not all) licensed professionals have to renew their license periodically. Some have a 1 Yerar Re-licensing, others are longer. *shrug*

I know here that Doctors in Oz have ongoing training they have to do to keep their license so the cost is mainly time - so a day job quality would be appropriate to roll your training in with a little street doctoring.

[Midas]

You don't have to tell me I went to the US a few years back and 99.9% of people were driving on the wrong side of the road (IMG:style_emoticons/default/eek.gif)

I take it that 0.1% was you! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

[Midas]

Actually, Most (it not all) licensed professionals have to renew their license periodically. Some have a 1 Yerar Re-licensing, others are longer. *shrug*

Yes, I believe they do. Saying that, renewal of a licence is probably a far more automatic process than receiving one in the first place (they're probably just checking that you have fullfilled any requirements such as minimum hours of work, haven't killed anybody etc) so any licence renewal fee is probably pretty nominal. Given that SR4's licence system is pretty abstracted anyway, I would handwave any licence renewal fees as included in lifestyle costs.

[Midas]

I meant healthcare not as the insurance, but as the actual care for one's health...which seems to be mostly deregulated, or at least nobody enforces those regulations for the gazillion of street docs.
And private investigators are not even regulated right now, "investigators" or "detectives" do not have any privileges or duties above those of a normal citizen and accordingly everybody can call himself that.

So I'd handle many of these licenses more like certifications: Sure everybody can practice medicine, but having an actual degree or other certification of skills might draw more customers...

I would imagine some street docs would be "legal", as in licenced, practices, while others would be backstreet "illegal" operations. SINless can't be choosers, although I am sure that most runners would look into rumours about a shadow clinic before sucking on that general anaesthetic ...

Interesting that you say there is no such thing as a PI licence IRL, although I suspect it may depend on which country you are talking about. For the game, I will pretty much let my PCs purchase licences for anything they decide to ask for; it may just be window dressing, but in my game showing a licence along with a plausible excuse can help legitimize their reason for being somewhere they normally shouldn't (+2DP for supporting evidence, social skills table).

[Vagabond Elf]

Somebody upthread was asking about the rules for licenses found in older editions. SR3 handled weapon permits as:

To represent dealing with the bureaucracy, make an Etiquette test vs. the weapon's normal Availability, +2. (Remember that SR3 has variable target numbers, so this is changing the TNs.) Base time to get the permit is the same as the base time to find the weapon. Cost is 5% of the weapon's cost for a permit to own, and 10% for a permit to own and carry. You must provide an ID, and if it's fake it has to pass a normal ID check. Finally, having a permit gives you more options when looking for the weapon itself, and give a -2 modifier to the Availabiity of the weapon. Permits are only available for weapons with the not in the Legality Code. (Basically, plain-jane pistols (heavy or light) and hunting rifles or shotguns. No SMGs, MPs, assault weapons, sniper weapons, and certainly no heavy weapons of any kind.)

[EKBT81]

Cost is 5% of the weapon's cost for a permit to own, and 10% for a permit to own and carry.

Honestly, that never made much sense to me. Why would a license for, let's say, the Fichetti Security 500 (400¥) cost more than a license for the Colt American L36 (350¥) with almost the same game stats (one round difference in mag capacity)? Or a license for a custom gunsmith-handtuned hardchromed 1500¥ Ruger Super Warhawk vs a license for the 300¥ basic model?

When I ran SR3 we agreed to pretty much handwave that into non-military weapons (that is handguns, rifles and shotguns without burstfire or fully-automatic modes) being available to anyone with a clean SIN (rating test for fake SINs). Same for CCW licenses. Cost subsumed under lifestyle.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

It makes sense to me; it basically means they're taxing the weapons at 5% or 10%.

But seriously, only those weapons are legal? Harsh.

(Where is that info from, by the way?)

[Vagabond Elf]

Honestly, that never made much sense to me. Why would a license for, let's say, the Fichetti Security 500 (400¥) cost more than a license for the Colt American L36 (350¥) with almost the same game stats (one round difference in mag capacity)? Or a license for a custom gunsmith-handtuned hardchromed 1500¥ Ruger Super Warhawk vs a license for the 300¥ basic model?

For the same reason that one extra round in the mag costs an extra 50¥? I don't even bother with that; Generic Light Pistols that all have the same stats also have the same price, and I use the names solely for verisimilitude. Though I can't recall ever having to make a decision on a weapon permit...

It makes sense to me; it basically means they're taxing the weapons at 5% or 10%.

But seriously, only those weapons are legal? Harsh.

(Where is that info from, by the way?)

It's from the SR3 main book. Amusingly, all the melee weapons you might expect to be legal, like a simple knife, have legality codes - which means they're not, actually, though the TNs are fairly high so a cop isn't likely to decide to hassle you about it; but there's no way to get a permit for them. You can get licensed to carry an 11mm magnum pistol with a cybernetic targeting system (ie, smartlink), but you can't carry a simple folding knife. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[_Pax._]

Amusingly, all the melee weapons you might expect to be legal, like a simple knife, have legality codes - which means they're not, actually, [...] there's no way to get a permit for them.

Which is pretty true to life.

Here in Connecticut, I can (and do) own quite large knives, even swords. However, if I carry one even one step over my own property line? I'm at risk of being arrested, charged with possessionof an unlawful deadly weapon, and given a "vacation" that involves orange jumpsuits, soap-on-a-rope, and "special playtime" with Bubba the Love Troll.

(Actual law: any knife over 4" long is prohibited for carry, concealed or otherwise. No permits exist. Tough luck.)

[Sid Nitzerglobin]

There were rules for this in 1E (in the Shadowtech book) and the licenses scaled in price based on the Legality category and class or cost of the weapon/ware/equipment. Categories also varied based on legal jurisdiction.

Some examples from the Shadowtech book:

[ Spoiler ]

Category A: Small Bladed Weapons (<18cm blade length): no permit required
Category B: Large Bladed Weapons (>18cm blade length): ¥100 for possession, ¥250 for transport
Category C: Blunt Weapons: no permit required
Category D: Projectile Weapons: ¥125 for possession, ¥300 for transport
Category D: Projectile Weapons: ¥125 for possession, ¥300 for transport
Category E: Pistols: ¥200 for possession, ¥500 for transport
Category F: Rifles: ¥300 for possession, ¥600 for transport
Category G: Automatic Weapons: Permits only available to registered security and law-enforcement agencies
Category H: Heavy Weapons: Permits only available to registered security and law-enforcement agencies
Category I: Explosives: Permits only available to registered security and law-enforcement agencies
Category J: Military Weapons: Permits only available to registered security and law-enforcement agencies
Category K: Military Armor: Permits only available to registered security and law-enforcement agencies
Category L: Military Ammo: Permits only available to registered security and law-enforcement agencies
Class A Bioware: Permits free
Class B Bioware: 10% of sale price
Class C Bioware: Permits only available to registered security and law-enforcement agencies
Category CA: Class A Cyberware: Permits free
Category CB: Class B Cyberware: 10% of sale price
Category CC: Class C Cyberware: Permits only available to registered security and law-enforcement agencies
Category CD: Class D Matrixware: Permits only available to registered security and law-enforcement agencies
Category E1: Class A Equipment: Permits free
Category E2: Class B Equipment: 10% of sale price
Category E3: Class C Equipment: Permits only available to registered security and law-enforcement agencies