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Charon
post Jun 10 2013, 10:01 PM
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SR5 is around the corner, so I'm back again, as I have been for every new editions!

I completed my collection (350$ in the past few weeks, it's good to no longer be a student!) and I am reading Storm Front. I like a lot of the fluff, but my attention was drawn to the Ares section.

All right, I think I will be able to make a running gag in my next campaign out of the Ares Excalibur, so right there the writers did not waste their time!

But it's not clear to me how such a fiasco is even possible. I can accept that whoever was in charge of developing the Excalibur is a moron who produced a complete dud. That happens all the time. But why didn't his superior scrap the project when he saw it was going nowhere during any of the dozens of progress reports he would have received? But, hey, let's assume that every single person in the chain of command of AresArms between Project Exaclibur and whoever is in charge of the division is a complete boob. Fine. But how the hell did they get AresMedia (or whatever the media division is called) to participate in a moronic and doomed coverup?

This is too big, it crosses division, so it has to involve Damien Knight. It implies that the CEO himself decided that he had sunk too much money in the Excalibur project and needed to recoup as much of the loss as he could. As a result, he ordered all his media outlets to outright lie, fabricate some stories and bury others, knowing full well this would be DEVASTATING to the Ares brand, costing billions in the long term, but he was too strapped for cash in the short term to care.

But that brings the question of how much money can you possibly sink in the development of a freaking rifle anyway that you can't afford to scrap the project? Compared to, say, how much money Ares invest to develop SPACE CRAFTS! It can't even be in the same order of magnitude. You'd think the Ares Excalibur development project is just a drop in the bucket for a corporation who must have budgeted the fact that not 100% of projects in development were going to pan out. And how much money are you going to recoup anyways by manipulating reviews and markets enough so that the first two weeks of sales are good before the abysmal performance of the product inevitably catch up with you? It's a rifle, not a Hollywood Blockbuster!

This. Makes. No. Sense.

Damien has to have already lost control of his corporation. For example, maybe he has been invested by an insect spirit and the hive queen has a plan that requires Ares to self destruct. That's all I can see because human incompetence can only explain so much.
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bannockburn
post Jun 10 2013, 10:17 PM
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Not to cut you off, but this has been noted in a 43 pages monster of a thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
It wasn't pretty (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
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Charon
post Jun 10 2013, 10:21 PM
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QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jun 10 2013, 05:17 PM) *
Not to cut you off, but this has been noted in a 43 pages monster of a thread (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)
It wasn't pretty (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)



Err... Where in the thread? Because I like Shadowrun, but not quite to the point of reading a 43 page thread from the start for the fun of it!
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hermit
post Jun 10 2013, 10:29 PM
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QUOTE
This. Makes. No. Sense.

It has all been said and done in the Stormfront review thread. However, you are, of course, fully right.
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bannockburn
post Jun 10 2013, 10:36 PM
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Here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...p;#entry1216094

And here: http://forums.dumpshock.com/index.php?show...p;#entry1212850

It goes on for a while from there.
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Charon
post Jun 10 2013, 10:37 PM
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QUOTE
It has all been said and done in the Stormfront review thread. However, you are, of course, fully right.




Okay, so was the consensus: 'The bugs got Damien' or 'The Writers don't understand squat about business!'?
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Charon
post Jun 10 2013, 10:37 PM
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QUOTE (bannockburn @ Jun 10 2013, 05:36 PM) *


Ah, thanks.
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kzt
post Jun 10 2013, 10:41 PM
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People that get paid to write or edit this stuff have not the faintest idea of how the real world works. Like the fact that the entire firearms industry in the US is really small potatoes compared to most any other industrial sector in the US that Ares is supposed to be involved in. Like automobiles. Or commercial aircraft.

It's another product showing the same careful writing and research that went into Bogota!
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hermit
post Jun 10 2013, 10:45 PM
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QUOTE
Like the fact that the entire firearms industry in the US is really small potatoes compared to most any other industrial sector in the US that Ares is supposed to be involved in. Like automobiles. Or commercial aircraft.

Yes, indeed. Even big defense contracts pale against some other fields Ares dabbles in.

QUOTE
It's another product showing the same careful writing and research that went into Bogota!

To be fair, some parts were better than others. Some parts though ... *shakes head*
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 11 2013, 01:46 AM
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QUOTE (Charon @ Jun 10 2013, 05:37 PM) *
Okay, so was the consensus: 'The bugs got Damien' or 'The Writers don't understand squat about business!'?


My thought was someone here has an issue with Ares. They don't like Tony Stark, they don't like the gun image, they don't like its associated with America image or whatever but it really seems like a writer there has a mad on against Ares. I'd be down with them getting nuked from orbit or something but all the plot lines seem to revolve around Ares being run by the dumbest people on earth.
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kzt
post Jun 11 2013, 07:50 AM
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So then this is going to be be a kind of boring but yet stupid plot? In keeping with the Bogota! theme, I therefore suggest the next big plot to undermine Ares involve sabotaging the Ares Pipeline International Surfing Competition run in Detroit every July.
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DMiller
post Jun 11 2013, 08:41 AM
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QUOTE (kzt @ Jun 11 2013, 04:50 PM) *
So then this is going to be be a kind of boring but yet stupid plot? In keeping with the Bogota! theme, I therefore suggest the next big plot to undermine Ares involve sabotaging the Ares Pipeline International Surfing Competition run in Detroit every July.

Awe man, but I love watching that competition from the North Sea docks... Ah well, guess it's off to Hawai'i for some snow skiing.
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hermit
post Jun 11 2013, 12:45 PM
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QUOTE
My thought was someone here has an issue with Ares. They don't like Tony Stark, they don't like the gun image, they don't like its associated with America image or whatever but it really seems like a writer there has a mad on against Ares. I'd be down with them getting nuked from orbit or something but all the plot lines seem to revolve around Ares being run by the dumbest people on earth.

My thought was (after someone notified me of the similarities to iPhone problems) someone has a problem with Apple Computers and vented his revenge fantasies on Ares.

QUOTE
So then this is going to be be a kind of boring but yet stupid plot? In keeping with the Bogota! theme, I therefore suggest the next big plot to undermine Ares involve sabotaging the Ares Pipeline International Surfing Competition run in Detroit every July.

And putting images of butts into their spots aired during the Super Brawl 2075. That'll just annihilate them.
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Backgammon
post Jun 11 2013, 01:09 PM
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QUOTE (Charon @ Jun 10 2013, 06:01 PM) *
SR5 is around the corner, so I'm back again, as I have been for every new editions!

I completed my collection (350$ in the past few weeks, it's good to no longer be a student!)


Did you get Montreal 2074? You know you want to.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Charon
post Jun 11 2013, 03:48 PM
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QUOTE (Backgammon @ Jun 11 2013, 08:09 AM) *
Did you get Montreal 2074? You know you want to.

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


I don't buy PDF, but if I see it at my store, I nab it for sure. I am not sure they publish short leaflets like this, though. They should, I have all the Aeon Trinity Leaflets.
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Wakshaani
post Jun 11 2013, 03:56 PM
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QUOTE (Shinobi Killfist @ Jun 10 2013, 07:46 PM) *
My thought was someone here has an issue with Ares. They don't like Tony Stark, they don't like the gun image, they don't like its associated with America image or whatever but it really seems like a writer there has a mad on against Ares. I'd be down with them getting nuked from orbit or something but all the plot lines seem to revolve around Ares being run by the dumbest people on earth.


None of the writers has a mad-on against Ares as far as I know. They're doing quite well in some areas (For example, spreading into the CAS) even as they do poorly in other areas.

You'd almost think that internal turmoil was causing the corporation to under-perform as players jockied for position, causing stock imbalances that would allow for consolidation of control or the like.

But that'd be silly.
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Charon
post Jun 11 2013, 03:58 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 11 2013, 07:45 AM) *
My thought was (after someone notified me of the similarities to iPhone problems) someone has a problem with Apple Computers and vented his revenge fantasies on Ares.


And I am still hoping that Damien has lost it (preferably insects), somehow, and will be ousted as a result. I mean, he has to be. Otherwise, his incomptence will start to taint Aurelius, Vogel and Daviar. Because once you start believing that Damien Knight is a boob for letting that Excalibur debacle happens on his watch, you then have to Wonder how incompetent his enemies have to be to fail to oust him! It's not like he own 51% of the corp.



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Charon
post Jun 11 2013, 04:10 PM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jun 11 2013, 10:56 AM) *
You'd almost think that internal turmoil was causing the corporation to under-perform as players jockied for position, causing stock imbalances that would allow for consolidation of control or the like.

But that'd be silly.


Hold your sarcams, that's perfectly sensible, but that in no way explains the Excalibur debacle, it makes it even more unlikely.

Excalibur is a crap project since inception; see Sacrificial Limb. Very early on, in a corp were everyone 'jockey for position' (which would be most corp) rivals of the people leading the Excalibur project should have made sure the project got scrapped, their rivals got canned, and they get the cushy budget instead. It's not as if a vicious executive hired runners to sabotage the initial production run; it was crap since the drawing board!

As it stands, for the project Excalibur to go through all the way to production and sales, it takes dozens of powerful executive all the way to Damien Knight willing to attach their cart to a visibly dead horse. Not a very likely scenario in a corp where everyone is watching their ass and making sure rivals who make mistakes pay the price.
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hermit
post Jun 11 2013, 06:01 PM
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QUOTE
You'd almost think that internal turmoil was causing the corporation to under-perform as players jockied for position, causing stock imbalances that would allow for consolidation of control or the like.

But that'd be silly.

Not when reading stormfront. Because this is hardly ever mentioned.

QUOTE
And I am still hoping that Damien has lost it (preferably insects), somehow, and will be ousted as a result. I mean, he has to be. Otherwise, his incomptence will start to taint Aurelius, Vogel and Daviar. Because once you start believing that Damien Knight is a boob for letting that Excalibur debacle happens on his watch, you then have to Wonder how incompetent his enemies have to be to fail to oust him! It's not like he own 51% of the corp.

With some authors I really wonder why they get stints in such big books.
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MADness
post Jun 11 2013, 07:21 PM
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pre-note: I have not read Storm Front. I came in all ready to rant. Thank you for not doing what I have seen done. Which is usually "They make one bad thing and collapse, herp, stupid!" It is actually more that that, I think. I vaguely recall an off hands reference to some other fiasco when the Excalibur first comes up. I have also noticed a Twitter lost from the 70's account. Iirc, there was also a related blog post.

I feel like there is going to be a lot of interesting stuff with Ares, from bugs to guns to internal sabotage.

Post-note: I am not arguing that the Excalibur plot itself is perfectly sensible, it is not.
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SpellBinder
post Jun 11 2013, 07:21 PM
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QUOTE (Charon @ Jun 11 2013, 09:58 AM) *
And I am still hoping that Damien has lost it (preferably insects), somehow, and will be ousted as a result. I mean, he has to be. Otherwise, his incomptence will start to taint Aurelius, Vogel and Daviar. Because once you start believing that Damien Knight is a boob for letting that Excalibur debacle happens on his watch, you then have to Wonder how incompetent his enemies have to be to fail to oust him! It's not like he own 51% of the corp.
What if the whole issue with the Excalibur a feint intentionally done and authorized by Knight?
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binarywraith
post Jun 11 2013, 07:25 PM
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QUOTE (Charon @ Jun 10 2013, 04:37 PM) *
Okay, so was the consensus: 'The bugs got Damien' or 'The Writers don't understand squat about business!'?


Little bit of both.

Have you read War! yet? If you don't have it, for the love of little green Nerps don't pay money for it.
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Charon
post Jun 11 2013, 09:29 PM
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QUOTE (SpellBinder @ Jun 11 2013, 02:21 PM) *
What if the whole issue with the Excalibur a feint intentionally done and authorized by Knight?


I'd have to see to what end.

Like willingly do something that that causes Ares stock tp fall so that Knight can buy back some stock at a good price and increase his control of the corporatation? That would make it a shorter (and more loony tune) version of the Villier/Lanier long con. Not sure how I'd feel about that.
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Charon
post Jun 11 2013, 09:32 PM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 11 2013, 02:25 PM) *
Little bit of both.

Have you read War! yet? If you don't have it, for the love of little green Nerps don't pay money for it.


Ahem. Too late. Have it, haven't really read it, though. In fact, I bought it toward the end of my 4th edition run, not in my recent mad dash to buy what has been published since in preparation for the 5th.

So what is so bad about it?

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hermit
post Jun 11 2013, 09:32 PM
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QUOTE
What if the whole issue with the Excalibur a feint intentionally done and authorized by Knight?

Why should he burn down his own house?
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Crank
post Jun 11 2013, 10:44 PM
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Its not implausible for a weapon to have a serious design flaw, that begins to show itself more and more - over time. However, as the Excalibur situation is written, it just doesn't make any sense. I think the writer(s) were itching to show how bad it was, that they left all sense of realism at the door. It would have made more sense to show the weapons passing some thorough examinations and testing, yet in the field were failing more and more over the course of several months. Merc groups, corp security, etc were using them but were getting more and more failures that they started getting rid of them.

Even then, as its been stated, its small potatoes. How many Excalibur's would it take to add up to the cost of even one Ares tank? Or one Ares fighter jet. A failed fighter jet project could cost well into the billions. Excalibur would just be a drop in the bucket.

Stormfront has its high and low points. Excalibur is definitely one of the low points.
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binarywraith
post Jun 11 2013, 11:13 PM
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QUOTE (Charon @ Jun 11 2013, 03:32 PM) *
Ahem. Too late. Have it, haven't really read it, though. In fact, I bought it toward the end of my 4th edition run, not in my recent mad dash to buy what has been published since in preparation for the 5th.

So what is so bad about it?


Literally everything, although I think the current record-holders for worst things in the book are the suggestions of a submarine extraction from the docks of Bogota, which is 8,612 feet above sea level on a plateau in the middle of the Andes; and the mission hook that involves killing Jewish ghosts in Auschwitz concentration camp to steal Nazi gold at the behest of Catholic priests.
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hermit
post Jun 11 2013, 11:41 PM
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And loot a Scalpel of Jew Mauling +2. I am not making this up.
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SpellBinder
post Jun 11 2013, 11:47 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 11 2013, 02:32 PM) *
Why should he burn down his own house?
Sorry, but business and politics aren't my strongest suits, though I do clearly see the deal about how one failed gun should be a drop in the bucket to a AAA.

I just got a vague scenario of Knight using this to try and bait some business enemies out more into the open so they can be dealt with. I keep thinking that Knight has a way to turn this to an advantage somehow, and the results might not be quite as obvious.
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kzt
post Jun 11 2013, 11:49 PM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 11 2013, 04:13 PM) *
Literally everything, although I think the current record-holders for worst things in the book are the suggestions of a submarine extraction from the docks of Bogota, which is 8,612 feet above sea level on a plateau in the middle of the Andes

Hence my suggestion of holding a huge international surfing competition on the Detroit River...
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Charon
post Jun 12 2013, 01:36 AM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 11 2013, 07:41 PM) *
And loot a Scalpel of Jew Mauling +2. I am not making this up.


Page number, please! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)
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binarywraith
post Jun 12 2013, 01:41 AM
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QUOTE (Charon @ Jun 11 2013, 07:36 PM) *
Page number, please! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)


It's in the Poland section of the Global Hotspots chapter.

QUOTE
WORK BRINGS FREEDOM

Oswiecim was under a spiritual barrier for a number of years. Oswiecim was home to Auschwitz-Birkenau, the most well known of the Nazi party’s concentration camps. During the Holocaust, 1.1 million people died within its walls. This led it to become one of the most haunted places on the planet. Ghosts of all shapes and sizes dwelled within, frightening out or murdering all residents of Oswiecim. Because of the sheer magnitude of the haunting, a great number of other things found home there.

For the inclined occult investigator, Auschwitz-Birkenau is a treasure trove. It’s also a remarkably dangerous trap. Earlier this year, an entrepreneur named Tetsuo Shuumatsu hired a cabal of sorcerers, charging them with the removal of the barrier. He’s an arms dealer, one who specializes in the weapons necessary to take down ghosts. With such an infestation of ghosts, only a silly buyer would hesitate to pay top dollar for his wares. His greed opened this treasure trove to the public, allowing those without a sense of self-preservation to have a unique opportunity to drudge for necromantic artifacts.

The town proper is effectively still a town, albeit a town inhabited by the angry and hungry dead. They don’t take kindly to the living, but aren’t necessarily hostile unless provoked. Many are simply living out echoes of their past existences as harmless villagers. The real problem comes from the concentration camps proper. The three main campuses are surrounded by about fifty smaller camps. Each of the smaller camps is a hotbed of supernatural activity, but nothing compared to the magnitude of the central collective.

In particular, Auschwitz II is remarkable. It was the source of the vast majority of deaths—it’s what most people think of when referencing Auschwitz. It’s nightmare made flesh, almost a living organism unto itself. The halls audibly scream and cry, the ghosts beg for release so much that most people couldn’t even hear themselves speak. For your average runner, Auschwitz II is suicide. Only the most enterprising groups will survive the trip. But such a trip can result in great rewards (see The Fleshfinder, below).

THE FLESHFINDER

Deep within the bowels of Auschwitz II during WWII, Dr. Eduard Wirths conducted and supervised thousands of odd experiments on the human body. He tested mustard gas on innocents. He mutilated twins. He held people in tanks of ice water for hours or until dead. He exposed prisoners to malaria. He forced them to drink seawater. One particular implement from his experiments, a rusted old scalpel, was left in the labs. Over many years, it was energized by the various ghosts passing by it, feeding off their death energies. At this point, it’s taken on a life of its own.

The rusty old scalpel craves death. It only finds itself at home when flush with warm blood. Although this makes it a remarkably effective weapon, anyone holding it is subject to the sounds of its past victims. As a function of this, when the weapon is in hand, the character is considered distracted and suffers a –4 dice pool modifier to all Perception Tests. If she attempts to Observe in Detail as a Simple Action, she only suffers a –2 dice pool modifier.
Reach: 0, Damage: (Str/2+4)P, AP: –2, Availability: N/A (unique item), Market Value: 10,000¥


Note that the writer in question didn't even get basic shit like what a spirit barrier actually does in Shadowrun correct to begin with. There's no reason one would have to be taken down to let corporeal runners in, and every reason to keep it up if the place is full of rampaging spirits.
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Umidori
post Jun 12 2013, 02:13 AM
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That's clearly a Scalpel of Jew Mauling +3, at least. Base knife damage is (Str/2+1)P, 0 AP. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/silly.gif)

~Umi
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Charon
post Jun 12 2013, 02:16 AM
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Ah. Could have been worse.

Technically, you are not killing 'jewish' ghost. Based on the lore about ghost I am aware of in SR, 'ghosts' are wild spirits that have been shaped/imprinted by the violence that occured in this location, not the actual souls of Jewish prisoners who died in Auschwitz-Birkenau and are somehow (incredibly unfairly!) still stuck in the domain of their executioners. That would be incredibly insensitive.

Still, I am pretty sure I can tell a good SR tale without going there. If I want to tell a tale that touch the subject matters of genocide, I'll pick one that occured in the SR timeline.

Edit: And yeah, taking down that barrier makes no sense. And what's stopping Polish government to put one back up in a hurry?
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Cain
post Jun 12 2013, 08:44 AM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 11 2013, 03:13 PM) *
Literally everything, although I think the current record-holders for worst things in the book are the suggestions of a submarine extraction from the docks of Bogota, which is 8,612 feet above sea level on a plateau in the middle of the Andes; and the mission hook that involves killing Jewish ghosts in Auschwitz concentration camp to steal Nazi gold at the behest of Catholic priests.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you, but even the more innocuous things are bogus. I mean, do we really need rules for nukes and THOR shots? And what's more, they're ludicrously underpowered; you can't even sink a good-sized battleship with a direct hit by a smaller nuke. The ludicrously oversized dice pool rules are broken; as much as I hate the RIFTS system, aping mega-damage (or classic SR's Naval damage scale) would have been better. Rating 7 commlinks break the system in more ways than I want to think about, and damn near every piece of gear is either broken, underpowered, or has no good reason to be in a typical Shadowrun campaign.

And that's not even touching the massive number of editorial and typographic errors in the book. Someone here actually counted, and came to an average of one typo a page.
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Seriously Mike
post Jun 12 2013, 09:21 AM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 12 2013, 01:13 AM) *
Literally everything, although I think the current record-holders for worst things in the book are the suggestions of a submarine extraction from the docks of Bogota, which is 8,612 feet above sea level on a plateau in the middle of the Andes; and the mission hook that involves killing Jewish ghosts in Auschwitz concentration camp to steal Nazi gold at the behest of Catholic priests.

I facepalmed so hard I did a backflip on impact.
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post Jun 12 2013, 10:58 AM
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QUOTE
Based on the lore about ghost I am aware of in SR, 'ghosts' are wild spirits that have been shaped/imprinted by the violence that occured in this location, not the actual souls of Jewish prisoners who died in Auschwitz-Birkenau and are somehow (incredibly unfairly!) still stuck in the domain of their executioners. That would be incredibly insensitive.

Well. That's a tricky one actually, and depends on the phases of canon. For one, there is reincarnation (of elves) in Earthdawn and, by extension, Shadowrun (see Black Madonna, ED elves book, Tir na nÓg, and for a newer hint, Street Legends). Current canon toned this down to "we don't really know", but it is there. Further, there is the eGhosts, JackBNimble and the Morbus Schletz storyline (sorry, it just sounds cooler than Sybil Virus, no offense to you Mr Schletz). So, while we don't know, it is possible those are actually the "souls" of jewish prisoners.

Also, the writer himself clearly thinks these are, in fact, trapped souls. Yes, in that wacko scenario, those are indeed the prisoners of Auschwitz-Birkenau stuck in the domain of their executiners. And the worst part is the almost pornographic tone of the - not in-game, but out-of-game - writeup. So yes. It is incredibly insensitive.

QUOTE
aping mega-damage (or classic SR's Naval damage scale) would have been better.

It is the only, though rather broken, way of dealing with this in a dice pool system.

QUOTE
damn near every piece of gear is either broken, underpowered, or has no good reason to be in a typical Shadowrun campaign.

Don't forget Slow, or "immunity to all kinds of kinetic/corporeal weapons" ... including thor shots and nukes. And that a bag of hand grenades wired to simultaneously explode is a poor man's nuke.
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post Jun 12 2013, 01:34 PM
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QUOTE
It is the only, though rather broken, way of dealing with this in a dice pool system.

Not really. You could have simple scaled the damage, so one Naval die = maybe 10 regular dice, or something like that.

QUOTE
Don't forget Slow, or "immunity to all kinds of kinetic/corporeal weapons" ... including thor shots and nukes. And that a bag of hand grenades wired to simultaneously explode is a poor man's nuke.

And now you all know why War! is banned at my tables. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)
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post Jun 12 2013, 02:04 PM
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QUOTE (Cain @ Jun 12 2013, 07:34 AM) *
Not really. You could have simple scaled the damage, so one Naval die = maybe 10 regular dice, or something like that.


I liked the West End Games way of dealing with it for their d6 Star Wars, where for each 'scale' size larger than you a target was, you got +3D to hit, -3D to damage.

So a person (human scale) shooting at, say a TIE fighter (starfighter scale) would have +6D to hit, but -6D to damage, meaning they could tag it all day, but essentially could not damage it at all.
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post Jun 12 2013, 02:19 PM
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QUOTE
Not really. You could have simple scaled the damage, so one Naval die = maybe 10 regular dice, or something like that.

But that is just Megadamage by other means? At least in SR3, Ship Damage translated to regular damage after a ridiculous formula that made anti-ship missiles perfect great dragon slayers.

One more thing:
QUOTE
Rating 7 commlinks break the system in more ways than I want to think about

This seems to me a direct consequence of the lack of proper advancement opportunities for hackers in SR4. You start the second best out of the box and are best in hacking, gear-wise, after your first one to three runs/fenced EC3K. Wheee. While super clumsy, it's not the worst of war. The Matrix system is extremely broken as is. And that a new, unnecessary class of Matrix mages can out-hack hackers easily a few Karma down the river didn't help either, in all likelyhood.
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post Jun 12 2013, 08:05 PM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 12 2013, 01:13 AM) *
Literally everything, although I think the current record-holders for worst things in the book are the suggestions of a submarine extraction from the docks of Bogota, which is 8,612 feet above sea level on a plateau in the middle of the Andes; [...]
The submarine route out of Bogotá was mentioned in Deadly Waves, not War!.
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post Jun 13 2013, 12:29 AM
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QUOTE (Charon @ Jun 10 2013, 10:01 PM) *
But it's not clear to me how such a fiasco is even possible. I can accept that whoever was in charge of developing the Excalibur is a moron who produced a complete dud. That happens all the time. But why didn't his superior scrap the project when he saw it was going nowhere during any of the dozens of progress reports he would have received? But, hey, let's assume that every single person in the chain of command of AresArms between Project Exaclibur and whoever is in charge of the division is a complete boob. Fine. But how the hell did they get AresMedia (or whatever the media division is called) to participate in a moronic and doomed coverup?


To use a real life example, in Germany there is currently there is a huge scandal going on because 500 Million € were sunk into a drone project over half a decade which has now been scrapped because someone found out, after all this time, that those drones would not be allowed to fly in German (or European) airspace by law and that retrofitting them with the needed equipment to comply with regulations would be hugely expensive. The current defense minister had no idea about how the project went until he was told that it got scrapped and there is quite some evidence that he was lied to by staff members of the project. Some speculate they did this not (only) to try to cover themselves but also to create a scandal to force the minister to resign as he wanted to reform the ministry.

So whenever you think "they can't be this stupid", think again.
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post Jun 13 2013, 12:56 AM
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The F-35 is a much better example. 500 mil is still relatively moderate a loss for a large second-row state like Germany (the current floods in the Northeast will coust more than double the amount in reconstruction); 395 bn is a substantial sum even for the bloated monster that is the Pentagon.

The real problem is: the Excalibur can't possibly be even in the EuroHawk's league, cost-wise. Small arms are small fry, economically. Niche product, even.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 13 2013, 01:26 AM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 12 2013, 08:56 PM) *
The F-35 is a much better example. 500 mil is still relatively moderate a loss for a large second-row state like Germany (the current floods in the Northeast will coust more than double the amount in reconstruction); 395 bn is a substantial sum even for the bloated monster that is the Pentagon.

The real problem is: the Excalibur can't possibly be even in the EuroHawk's league, cost-wise. Small arms are small fry, economically. Niche product, even.


Well getting milked by an outside source is a bit different than in house screwups of this level. But yeah a single gun is a small loss.
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Charon
post Jun 13 2013, 04:41 AM
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QUOTE (Ixal @ Jun 12 2013, 07:29 PM) *
To use a real life example, in Germany there is currently there is a huge scandal going on because 500 Million € were sunk into a drone project over half a decade which has now been scrapped because someone found out, after all this time, that those drones would not be allowed to fly in German (or European) airspace by law and that retrofitting them with the needed equipment to comply with regulations would be hugely expensive. n.


See, it has been scrapped. Ares Excalibur was not scrapped, it was sent in production and they are trying to sell it knowing full well it's an awful product that will earn them scorn.

What you describe is only a scandal because those 500M euros are public funds. If Ares waste 500M, it's their own damn money, it's not a scandal. But if they try selling a product they know to be abominable crap instead of scrapping it, that hurts their brand, which is very costly in the long term. Especially since Ares is a corp that brands pretty much everything it sales. If Maser Industrial Electronics produce a crappy drone, few people will realize that Saeder-Krupp owns it and it will not affect their perception of the quality of the products put out by Onotari Arms (also SK). But if an Ares gun is crap, it affects the perception of the entire Ares Brand which is most of what they produce. And they are doing this only to earn petty change in the short term!
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Charon
post Jun 13 2013, 04:51 AM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 12 2013, 05:58 AM) *
Also, the writer himself clearly thinks these are, in fact, trapped souls. Yes, in that wacko scenario, those are indeed the prisoners of Auschwitz-Birkenau stuck in the domain of their executiners. And the worst part is the almost pornographic tone of the - not in-game, but out-of-game - writeup. So yes. It is incredibly insensitive.


The more I think about it, the more inexcusable it becomes.


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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 13 2013, 04:51 AM
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QUOTE (Charon @ Jun 12 2013, 11:41 PM) *
See, it has been scrapped. Ares Excalibur was not scrapped, it was sent in production and they are trying to sell it knowing full well it's an awful product that will earn them scorn.

What you describe is only a scandal because those 500M euros are public funds. If Ares waste 500M, it's their own damn money, it's not a scandal. But if they try selling a product they know to be abominable crap instead of scrapping it, that hurts their brand, which is very costly in the long term. Especially since Ares is a corp that brands pretty much everything it sales. If Maser Industrial Electronics produce a crappy drone, few people will realize that Saeder-Krupp owns it and it will not affect their perception of the quality of the products put out by Onotari Arms (also SK). But if an Ares gun is crap, it affects the perception of the entire Ares Brand which is most of what they produce. And they are doing this only to earn petty change in the short term!


While not spot on as an example though we could go with the pinto. Though death trap your lawyers think wont amount to enough in lawsuite is a bit different. The pinto functioned as a car, it just blew up if hit in the wrong spot. As I understand it the excalibur did not function in its desinged role.
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post Jun 13 2013, 04:51 AM
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QUOTE (Nath @ Jun 12 2013, 03:05 PM) *
The submarine route out of Bogotá was mentioned in Deadly Waves, not War!.


So, would you recommand I get Deadly Waves?
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hermit
post Jun 13 2013, 07:50 AM
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QUOTE
So, would you recommand I get Deadly Waves?

It has some good stuff, but also weirdness. I personally bought it for the house boat, but YMMV greatly on this.

QUOTE
While not spot on as an example though we could go with the pinto. Though death trap your lawyers think wont amount to enough in lawsuite is a bit different. The pinto functioned as a car, it just blew up if hit in the wrong spot. As I understand it the excalibur did not function in its desinged role.

Even so, Ares is an incredibly diverse company, like all megacorps are. Including investment in actual moneymaker fields - government defense contracts, consumer electronics, food, investment banking. A crap gun would be an embarassment for the 2nd Amendment corp, but nothing more. I doubt it would make people swear off Twinkies and soyburgers, toss their Apple commlinks (p. 125 CFS - Apple is listed as among Ares' largest californian subsidiaries) and ACE headphones in the bin, and close their Bank of America accounts. Neither will governments take away KE contracts, step back from buying warships, or swear off Honeywell for whatever it is Honeywell does. Ares is not just "lol Predator". Ares is the American military-industrial complex plus OCP. That's a very diverse company. Sure, Ares also has bigger problems, but the writeup concludes a faulty handgun for private owners and very showy mercenaries on the trid will bring them down. What the fuck.
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post Jun 13 2013, 12:34 PM
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While it's probably just shoddy writing, I can see at least one reason for this fiasco to occur: it wasn't the GUN that was important, it was the ADVERTISING they were testing out. Psychotropics were known advertising stunts during SR4 through SR4A, and there are rumors to Ares using Nanite-based coercion in SR5.

Perhaps such a crap gun was put out on purpose as a test for HOW GOOD the nanite-based advertising could swing public opinion; a significant portion of cash was sunk on such development, would not be an OBVIOUS or noted investment on any ledger, while still being a significant loss when results were "not nearly as powerful as intended." As I said, this is not likely intentional, but such an investment and the ensuing damage control CAN become quite expensive.
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binarywraith
post Jun 13 2013, 01:54 PM
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I really think it was some 'genius' in the writing staff who needed to fill a space, and thus decided to see if he could get away with taking the boondoggle around the original deployment of the M16 and turn it up to 11.
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 13 2013, 02:12 PM
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QUOTE (binarywraith @ Jun 13 2013, 06:54 AM) *
I really think it was some 'genius' in the writing staff who needed to fill a space, and thus decided to see if he could get away with taking the boondoggle around the original deployment of the M16 and turn it up to 11.


That is my guess too. *sigh*
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Wakshaani
post Jun 13 2013, 02:38 PM
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You'd be wrong, for what it's worth.

If you read Stormfront, you'll find out a *lot* more about the Excalibur project, including one reason why R&D was way, way higher than you'd think (Hint: It didn't start as a gun that shot bullets), and why some things continued to garner support when they shouldn't have.

As for boondoggles, you can draw from a lot of past experience ... the Ford Pinto and the Edsel for cars, for instance, or you can watch Microsoft taking hit after hit in real-time from the Xbox One. Sometimes a company just screws up. It happens. Sometimes, they screw up badly enough to go out of business.

Ares, a true Triple A, isn't at risk for that over this, but factors that lead to it could.

IE, "The patient won't die because of the sniffles, but because he had AIDS which killed his immune system." Think of the Excalibur as a symptom, not the disease.

(Mind you, I have no dog in this hunt. Not my plot. I just figured that, you know, people going "lol, macroeconomics and economies of scale 101" might want to know that they're missing the steak for the garnish.)
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Tymeaus Jalynsfe...
post Jun 13 2013, 03:34 PM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jun 13 2013, 07:38 AM) *
You'd be wrong, for what it's worth.

If you read Stormfront, you'll find out a *lot* more about the Excalibur project, including one reason why R&D was way, way higher than you'd think (Hint: It didn't start as a gun that shot bullets), and why some things continued to garner support when they shouldn't have.

As for boondoggles, you can draw from a lot of past experience ... the Ford Pinto and the Edsel for cars, for instance, or you can watch Microsoft taking hit after hit in real-time from the Xbox One. Sometimes a company just screws up. It happens. Sometimes, they screw up badly enough to go out of business.

Ares, a true Triple A, isn't at risk for that over this, but factors that lead to it could.

IE, "The patient won't die because of the sniffles, but because he had AIDS which killed his immune system." Think of the Excalibur as a symptom, not the disease.

(Mind you, I have no dog in this hunt. Not my plot. I just figured that, you know, people going "lol, macroeconomics and economies of scale 101" might want to know that they're missing the steak for the garnish.)


Good to know...
You really should get a dog, though. Nothing like a good hunting dog. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)
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Charon
post Jun 13 2013, 03:35 PM
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QUOTE (hermit @ Jun 13 2013, 03:50 AM) *
It has some good stuff, but also weirdness. I personally bought it for the house boat, but YMMV greatly on this.


I was being tongue in cheek...

At this point I am only buying plot and setting stuff, anwyay.
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Charon
post Jun 13 2013, 03:39 PM
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QUOTE (Wakshaani @ Jun 13 2013, 10:38 AM) *
IE, "The patient won't die because of the sniffles, but because he had AIDS which killed his immune system." Think of the Excalibur as a symptom, not the disease.


As I said from the beginning, I am only accepting this debacle if it means that are problems all the way to the top; Damien Knight himself is bungling things badly for some reasons.
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post Jun 13 2013, 05:46 PM
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QUOTE (Charon @ Jun 13 2013, 04:41 AM) *
See, it has been scrapped. Ares Excalibur was not scrapped, it was sent in production and they are trying to sell it knowing full well it's an awful product that will earn them scorn.


It has only been scrapped after they actually bought several Drones to find out they were not allowed to fly them, not because of any form of controlling. And it still took years after that revelation.

My point is that while I do think the damage the Excalibur did to Ares is a bit overblown it is not impossible that a project can go as bad as the Excalibur did.
When internal rivalries meet prestigious yet shoddy pet projects meet hotshot managers who want to show everyone that they are the best and won't admit defeat a lot can go wrong and yet the project still continues, especially when you also figure in sabotage to ensure exactly that.

And speaking of "trying to sell it knowing full well it's an awful product that will earn them scorn", ever looked at the F-35 Lightning?
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kzt
post Jun 13 2013, 09:31 PM
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QUOTE (Ixal @ Jun 13 2013, 10:46 AM) *
And speaking of "trying to sell it knowing full well it's an awful product that will earn them scorn", ever looked at the F-35 Lightning?

Devices that cost 250,000,000 per and are > 30% of your companies total gross vs devices that cost 1,000 and are < 2% of your total gross tend to have a bit more potential for causing harm to your company. Plus it's unlikely that a rifle has 250 million lines of computer code.
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post Jun 13 2013, 11:40 PM
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QUOTE
I just figured that, you know, people going "lol, macroeconomics and economies of scale 101" might want to know that they're missing the steak for the garnish.

Even if a lot of research compared to other rifles went into the Excalibur, it's still a minor blooper. The Xbox1984 won't kill Microsoft, and they are a lot more, proportionally, invested in the console market than Ares is in the battle rifle market. Yes, if all of Ares is about incompetence and clumsily covering their own asses, the company has a problem. However, none of the true dangers to ares had a real stake in the Excalibur as written up in Stormfront.
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MADness
post Jun 14 2013, 02:05 AM
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Honeywell makes heating and cooling devices and paraphernalia. Things like box fans, ceiling fans, thermostats, and such.
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kzt
post Jun 14 2013, 06:43 AM
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QUOTE (MADness @ Jun 13 2013, 07:05 PM) *
Honeywell makes heating and cooling devices and paraphernalia. Things like box fans, ceiling fans, thermostats, and such.

That's not all. Or even close to all they do.

I know people who needed serious security clearances to work for them.

http://honeywell.com/Products-Services/Pag...ce-defense.aspx
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hermit
post Jun 14 2013, 09:22 AM
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Thanks for the link, kzt.
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post Jun 15 2013, 02:34 AM
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QUOTE (Charon @ Jun 13 2013, 10:39 AM) *
As I said from the beginning, I am only accepting this debacle if it means that are problems all the way to the top; Damien Knight himself is bungling things badly for some reasons.

How old is he again? It may be age setting in. He was young in like the 2030's, making him probably in his 60-70s by 2074.
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MADness
post Jun 15 2013, 02:48 AM
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I had no idea Honeywell did that much. Makes sense that Ares bought them out.
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Shinobi Killfist
post Jun 15 2013, 03:24 AM
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QUOTE (Neraph @ Jun 14 2013, 09:34 PM) *
How old is he again? It may be age setting in. He was young in like the 2030's, making him probably in his 60-70s by 2074.


He is the CEO of a AAA if anyone can get leonization treatments it is him. He is literally supposed to be one of the smartest people on the planet, and yet recent evens make him out to be buffoon. Some age based mental defect at least would explain things, but I doubt they are going there.
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Wakshaani
post Jun 15 2013, 04:28 AM
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In both Storm Front and Dirty Tricks, his use of Leonization is mentioned. Pops up in older sources as well.
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post Jun 16 2013, 07:54 PM
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QUOTE (Tymeaus Jalynsfein @ Jun 13 2013, 10:34 AM) *
Good to know...
You really should get a dog, though. Nothing like a good hunting dog. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)


A Caucasian Sheperd for reals.
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