Matrix bonuses are dumb., Splitting the discussion from the 5E rules Q&A Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Tanegar]

...because you say so, hmm?

No, it breaks SR's internal logic due to the massive, colossal, epic disconnect between the way technology has previously been stated to work in the Sixth World, and the way it is now being stated to work, with absolutely no in-universe explanation given for the change.

The reason was given by JH in a blog

"Hackers were not useful in combat (because apparently no one uses radio communition, drones or tacnets) so in order to be useful they need something to hack (like items or cyberware). Since everybody (especially the player) however knows, that being online is a potential hacking/detection problem, everybody (especially the players) went offline - which is not acceptable. So to make everything having a price and hackable 8because, you know, hackers cannot do anything in combat) you only get the good goodies if you are online. "

Example given in the blog : your googles with a vision enhancement catches info bits from the air and so you get +3 to perception. But now you are hackable"

That is the official reasoning behind "everything must be online".

I have no idea where he's getting the idea that nobody uses radios, drones, or tacnets. I see posts here on Dumpshock all the time about the awesomeness of tacnets (and they are pretty damned awesome), and my players use drones and comms all the time. Which reminds me, I should really start throwing some hackers at them.

Anyway, hacking enemy comms is super useful in combat. Hacking enemy drones is super useful. Hacking the enemy tacnet... holy shit, the havoc you could wreak. Why in great Cthulhu's unholy name is it necessary for cyberware hacking to be a viable avenue?

[Sunshine]

I do not know how to move my post!

No, it breaks SR's internal logic due to the massive, colossal, epic disconnect between the way technology has previously been stated to work in the Sixth World, and the way it is now being stated to work, with absolutely no in-universe explanation given for the change.

As written above I get that the metagame explanation is kind of thin, but I'll have JH rather concentrate on putting together a great game than arguing over the in game explanations of that point right now.

Anyway, hacking enemy comms is super useful in combat. Hacking enemy drones is super useful. Hacking the enemy tacnet... holy shit, the havoc you could wreak. Why in great Cthulhu's unholy name is it necessary for cyberware hacking to be a viable avenue?

Because it could be fun amd make for some awesome stories and runs to happen. I'll give you that - if overdone - it can turn out to be a real pain in the a**. And what part of Shadowrun -besides playing it with friends- is not a pita if overdone? It all comes down to how it will be used at your gaming table, where you have a say in how the game will be played, social contract and whatnot.

btw - great Idea moving this subject to a different thread!

love,
Sunshine

[apple]

The part with "making sense" should not start at the gaming table and your GM , it should start with the very first sentence in the basic book.

Because it could be fun amd make for some awesome stories and runs to happen. I'll give you that - if overdone - it can turn out to be a real pain in the a**

Not really. We are talking about standard combat options - not about plot devices or story arcs. It´s in the same area as "why do I get +1 dice if I aim?"

The official reasoning was "hackers are not combat viable, so all items and cyberware need to be hackable and we achieve that with online bonuses" and so totally ignoring already existing online commlink, online radio communication, online drone remote control, online tacnet and indeed the non-professional enemy using online items/ware because of factory default settings.

If that was not enough to convince the writers of SR5 that a hacker/decker is combat viable, then you should not expect any reasonable ingame explanation except metagame handweaving.

SYL

[Sunshine]

The part with "making sense" should not start at the gaming table and your GM , it should start with the very first sentence in the basic book.

I don't know how the first sentence in the basic book will read but I am fairly sure it will make sense. IMO the "making sense" part is exactly starting at the gaming table. How should a game designed to be taken as a jumpstart for your and your gaming buddies imagination ever make sense without you accomodating it to your wants and needs. How could something totally "make sense" out of the box that was designed to be used arround gaming tables from arround the world? With multiple emphasis on so many different aspects of the game world that shadowrun is. IMO what you are asking for is impossible.

Not really. We are talking about standard combat options - not about plot devices or story arcs. It´s in the same area as "why do I get +1 dice if I aim?"

Are you talking about combat hacking or online bonuses?


I try to use this as an example:

Smartguns working better because they are getting weather, map, and other external data, great! It makes sense, is plausible, fits in universe.
A chemsuit sealing it's vents faster because someone hooked a Matrix feed to it, not so much.

There were always minor things that bothered me considering continuity or plausibility. I have two choices and I am sure we could come up with more. 1) I change the rule to the comfort of my gaming group or 2) when playing with new people I keep consistent in my interpretation of the rules so they don' t get blindsided by the rules.

I can't remember any rpg that didn't need a variation of 1) to suit the people who devoted their time to come together and play that game.

love,
Sunshine

[apple]

IMO what you are asking for is impossible.

I was just asking to remove strange "online bonuses" and make normal "online and offline bonuses, as usual".You know, as in SR4 for example, where a reaction enhancer could work together with wired reflexes, your vision googles were not able to catch tiny info bits out of the fresh air and where almost everything what was tried as an explanation for the new online bonuses was simply ... a tacnet. Which is everything but "asking for the impossible".

The only thing combat hacking the enemy team (both player and non player) needed was the removal of extended tests - which happened in SR5. Then you could go and have fun with the enemy drone, communication and tacnet. Which was exactly what JH wanted in SR5 - and totally ignored. Instead he gave us wireless chemical seals, reaction enhancers and glasses, and every explanation by both the authors and the community ended in "what you describe is a tacnet".

'Which ended in "yeah well, tacnets could be part of reaction enhancers now".

Do you really think that it is impossible to simply ask for rules and ingame explanations to make sense, based on the universe?

SYL

[Glyph]

I think my biggest problem with the matrix bonuses is that they are illogical and contrived. It is especially infuriating that wired reflexes and reaction enhancers need to be connected to the matrix to be able to work together. Wireless bonuses is not inherently a bad idea, but their implementation, even from what little hard information I have gleaned from the discussions, seems to be illogical bonuses, and penalties to things that worked fine without wireless before.

I would be fine if wireless did things like reduce penalties for indirect fire, allow instant communications without needing to expend a simple action, or give bonuses to perception, surprise, and some teamwork tests. Make a world where newbies run with wireless, smarter runners turn it off, and the best runners use it, along with some hefty protections for it.

[binarywraith]

Heck, here's a basic gameplay example.

What happens with the wireless-necessary systems when you go out into the NAN lands where there isn't anything to produce an omnipresent network?

Is SR intended to be a strictly urban game now?

[apple]

Well, I hope you use a satellite dish on your reaction enhancer.

SYL

[apple]

What non-wireless sensors can you think of that can pinpoint a person's body parts' location in 3D space accurately and in real time?

1) The one with DNI - you know, cyberware and stuff. It tells the machine "Hey, dude, I just moved 45 degrees to the right and 10 degrees up, isn´t that awesome"?
2) The one which ... has sensors (the same way your smartphone known if you have it moved upwards or downwards

Now, I don´t know the definition of what wired reflexes and reaction enhancers are in SR5, but let us have a look at the SR4 rulebook (and Ii would bet my money on copy/paste in SR5... )

Wired Reflexes: This highly invasive operation implants a multitude
of neural boosters and adrenalin stimulators in strategic locations
all over the body,
[....]
Reaction Enhancers: By replacing part of the spinal column with
superconducting material,

So, superconducators and adrenalin stimulators work better because they have a homepage now? I mean we are not talking about a tactical network. Or an implanted commlink. Or remote controlled drones.

We are talking about adrenalin stimulators, glasses with binoculars, superconductor material and an airtight construction which works besser if it is online and hackable. Which does not make any sense. A superconductor does not work better because you add a smartphone to it´s surface.

SYL

[Shemhazai]

1) The one with DNI - you know, cyberware and stuff. It tells the machine "Hey, dude, I just moved 45 degrees to the right and 10 degrees up, isn´t that awesome"?
2) The one which ... has sensors (the same way your smartphone known if you have it moved upwards or downwards

If that's how you imagine it, fine. Those motion-detecting sensors of today that you mentioned are incredibly primitive and error-prone. Perhaps in the future they will be awesome and guaranteed accurate. But just maybe those extra dice need something more so.

[apple]

Like a hackable, spam ridden, matrix noise dependable (you didn´t forget the mechanism of matrix noise, did you?) online system, which cannot be in any way be replaced via cable, skinlink or ... DNI ...

Please wear your glowing pink suit to get a +3 bonus to initiative.

SYL

[binarywraith]

In my imaginary, non-canon technology, the wireless aspect allows the two systems to work together and slightly better.

I can just make shit up, too, but that doesn't mean it fits the setting or the two decades of precedent for how technology in it works.

[ShadowDragon8685]

Like a hackable, spam ridden, matrix noise dependable (you didn´t forget the mechanism of matrix noise, did you?) online system, which cannot be in any way be replaced via cable, skinlink or ... DNI ...

Please wear your glowing pink suit to get a +3 bonus to initiative.

SYL

And now I have a new signature, thank you.

I think everybody who thinks "online bonuses" are the steamiest, stinkiest, smelliest, squishest pile of bulldrek that has even been inflicted on Shadowrun should add this quote to their signature, too.

[Charon]

What are we talking about, anyway?

In 5e, What advantage do you get from having your Wired Reflexes with an enables wifi connection? How easy is it to hack?

[Jaid]

What are we talking about, anyway?

In 5e, What advantage do you get from having your Wired Reflexes with an enables wifi connection? How easy is it to hack?

it all started in the rules thread. wired reflexes don't stack with reaction boosters... unless they both have wifi enabled.

[ShadowDragon8685]

it all started in the rules thread. wired reflexes don't stack with reaction boosters... unless they both have wifi enabled.

And your chemical seal seals up as an action you have to take, unless its wireless, in which case it's some free, nonwithstanding the fact that literally nothing needs it to have anything but a DNI to you.

[RHat]

And your chemical seal seals up as an action you have to take, unless its wireless, in which case it's some free, nonwithstanding the fact that literally nothing needs it to have anything but a DNI to you.

I suspect the implication is meant to be that "not connected" also means "non-DNI'd".

[ShadowDragon8685]

I suspect the implication is meant to be that "not connected" also means "non-DNI'd".

And that is a retarded implication, because both datajacks and skinlinks have been a Thing since the '50s.

[RHat]

And that is a retarded implication, because both datajacks and skinlinks have been a Thing since the '50s.

That would have to represent an in-game change where shutting off one means of connection means shutting off all forms of connectivity, clearly - a change due to the new protocols, perhaps, which are patched across through any available means of connection to any other nodes.

[binarywraith]

That would have to represent an in-game change where shutting off one means of connection means shutting off all forms of connectivity, clearly - a change due to the new protocols, perhaps, which are patched across through any available means of connection to any other nodes.

You realize you're now just making up things that are entirely counter to any idea of network security ever considered, right? The stuff you're saying is a literal leap backwards in how devices interact.

[Makki]

I can imagine that it's a manufacture uplink you need. Like all the games and software nowadays "need" an internet connection to work. It's not a necessity to funtion, but the manufacture wants to make sure you're connected and he can keep track of his stuff.
The consequence of this HAS to be, that there is a hardware/software override mechanism possible, that will make the gear work properly without wifi enabled and constant matrix tracking. It will be a 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) upgrade every decent shadow doc or hacker connection can provide and every runner needs.

[phlapjack77]

I can imagine that it's a manufacture uplink you need. Like all the games and software nowadays "need" an internet connection to work. It's not a necessity to funtion, but the manufacture wants to make sure you're connected and he can keep track of his stuff.
The consequence of this HAS to be, that there is a hardware/software override mechanism possible, that will make the gear work properly without wifi enabled and constant matrix tracking. It will be a 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) upgrade every decent shadow doc or hacker connection can provide and every runner needs.

This is how I'm viewing it too - it's similar to present day Xbox or SimCity nonsense. I'd allow anyone with a Hardware skill and a few hours to make this mod, similiar to the hot-sim mod allowed for the sim module.

Players will still go to great lengths to not be online and vulnerable, so nothing will have changed in the game other than making (large?) portions of the player-base angry at this bad idea.

[KarmaInferno]

I suspect the implication is meant to be that "not connected" also means "non-DNI'd".

No, the activation speed is based on "is it connected to the Matrix".

By the text of the rules it it the same whether DNI or not.

And the text gives zero in-universe rationale on any of it.



-k

[RHat]

You realize you're now just making up things that are entirely counter to any idea of network security ever considered, right? The stuff you're saying is a literal leap backwards in how devices interact.

I'm suggesting that the corps did something in accordance with their interests without giving a damn how it impacted people who don't an alternative anyways. Always Online is good for them for a lot of reasons.

[RHat]

No, the activation speed is based on "is it connected to the Matrix".

By the text of the rules it it the same whether DNI or not.

And the text gives zero in-universe rationale on any of it.



-k

I think you missed the point - I was considering a possible implication that it is not possible to have the DNI operating without other connectivity active, or that it is otherwise assumed that if it is connected in some form that it eventually reaches the Matrix.

[apple]

That would mean, that NO active cyberware like eyes or arms are even possible as they are DNI-controlled. And following your consideration this would mean not only "no bonus" but "not possible".

SYL

[RHat]

There is that - then again, in the case of something like a chem seal, you have to consider that it has to fist connect up to something that transfers it to the DNI. Things like cybereyes have other reasons to validate their bonus.

[apple]

Do basic cybereyes even have bonuses (except of course besides "you can see now")?

SYL

[RHat]

Presumably it would be additions like Vision Enhancement it would be relevant for, which can validate their bonus through distributed computing concepts.

[Sengir]

I was considering a possible implication that it is not possible to have the DNI operating without other connectivity active

DNI means that a device is connected to the neural system such that extending a spur becomes a "natural" action like sticking out your tongue. Why on earth would that require a wireless connection? Do your nerves operate on wifi?

[Rubic]

As somebody who deals with wireless devices on a daily basis, I can assure you there is no way that a wireless connection would be better, as a standard, to a hard-line connection. Less-secure, less-reliable, less-consistent...

... also, Wireless has a definition already. Wireless communications typically includes only the "Wifi" band of radio signals, but can be expanded to loosely include bluetooth (abysmal, imo) and IR (has its uses, just not in regular implementation). Wireless DOES NOT mean "on the web," or in this case, "on the Matrix" as a standard word-definition. But, y'know, if SR5 REALLY wants to play like this... fine...

- All combat systems set to Signal 0, including a hand full of burner commlinks JUST for that, to establish my own mesh network and claim "Matrix access".
- Signal Jammer R1-6 (whatever's most viable) on myself.

There, my gear is all Wireless, so it gets the bonuses. Like restricting our dice pools by capping skill ratings and giving us tons of un-typed dice pool bonuses (ah, Tailored Pheremones and Tacnets, l'amor).

Seriously, though, the biggest advantage to break the game thus far has been borderline-basic reading comprehension. We'll see how they word their bonuses, and we WILL take advantage of it. It's part of what gamers do. After all, just because something is wireless doesn't mean it has a connection outward. The more stupid it is, the harder it will eventually hit their bottom line.

[Mäx]

- All combat systems set to Signal 0, including a hand full of burner commlinks JUST for that, to establish my own mesh network and claim "Matrix access".

That does not in anyway what so ever qualify as "Matrix access", thats just a normal PAN.

[CeeJay]

That does not in anyway what so ever qualify as "Matrix access", thats just a normal PAN.

That leaves the question what exactly constitutes as "matrix access". Do my wired reflexes and reaction enhancer have to subscribe to a distinct node / network for them to work together?

-CJ

[CeeJay]

The consequence of this HAS to be, that there is a hardware/software override mechanism possible, that will make the gear work properly without wifi enabled and constant matrix tracking. It will be a 100 (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nuyen.gif) upgrade every decent shadow doc or hacker connection can provide and every runner needs.

This!

There HAS to be some kind of jailbreak available or Jackpoint (or SR world in general) isn't what it used to be...

-CJ

[apple]

That does not in anyway what so ever qualify as "Matrix access", thats just a normal PAN.

Surely you can quote a rule for that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

SYL

[Mäx]

Surely you can quote a rule for that. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

Why would i need to quote a rule, the system listed very specifically isn't in any way connected to Matrix.

[binarywraith]

This!

There HAS to be some kind of jailbreak available or Jackpoint (or SR world in general) isn't what it used to be...

-CJ

This is part of why so many of us are boggling, honestly. That sort of thing should be standard practice for shadowrunners. Has been in the fluff for decades, this is what some of the oldschool deckers did for fun, subverting corp-spec ware to see what they could do with it.

It was the whole foundational narrative device for at least one of the Matrix sourcebooks, even, with NetCat (IIRC) picking apart a Renraku child's training program for an audience.

[apple]

Why would i need to quote a rule, the system listed very specifically isn't in any way connected to Matrix.

The matrix consists of nodes. Therefore node is a (very minor) matrix. Or do you imply that there have to be a specific numbers of nodes connected?

SYL

[ShadowDragon8685]

It was the whole foundational narrative device for at least one of the Matrix sourcebooks, even, with NetCat (IIRC) picking apart a Renraku child's training program for an audience.

It wasn't NetCat, she's (a) straight (or at least straight enough to be in a parental relationship with Slamm-O,) and (b) too young to be that woman. But I do remember that one, and the roffling everybody was doing over that crippled, stupid thing.

[Jaid]

i'm having a hard time believing the corps managed to somehow persuade everyone to trade in their old tech, which doesn't require matrix access to function.

i mean, imagine for a second you're making a sales pitch to some government/military. how are you going to persuade them they should stop using the secure, perfectly functional tech they've been using for years, and trade it in for new tech that is *specifically designed to not be secure*.

i mean, yeah, they may not have the best of tech programs, but if you think for a second their major legitimate contracts are going to agree to a design that is deliberately made to be infinitely less secure, well... you must not like verisimilitude very much, because that is the exact opposite of what i would consider to be even remotely believable.

some things could potentially make sense. the vast majority of things will not make even a tiny bit of sense. and it won't be just the shadow community that jailbreaks these things either... this has got to be very annoying from a convenience perspective as well, and probably opens you up to being constantly spammed advertisements...

so really, not only would i expect shadowrunners, criminals, any sort of serious security force, all police organizations, and every single military in the world to jailbreak these things... i would also expect joe average who has to worry about matrix dead zones and who doesn't like being reminded that the upgraded model of whatever he has is 10 times faster every 15 seconds to jailbreak their stuff.

or, in other words, about the only people who won't be jailbreaking are the obedient corp drones that live in corp facilities 24/7. or, in other words... expect to be able to use this on people with no skills (or at least, no skills relevant to shadowrunning) and no connections.

[hermit]

In principle, the idea of Wireless boni isn't bad. I could actually get behind the idea. However, the execution is about as wrong as it can be.

It's not offering boni, for instance. It offers the same functionality devices usually had in previous editions - reaction enhancers and wired reflexes interacting positively, for instance - and says "nu-uh, only if you activate wireless" wantonly. It is not offering a bonus, it is taking away from players. A very crude way of enforcing a game mechanism that is so scathingly unpopular that most players bent the system considerably and engagesd in massive rules red tape in SR4 to circumvent it. If it was a new function added, such as "boosted reflexes can interact with reaction enhancers too if you activate wireless to process the necessary computing in the cloud", then it would be a bonus. As is, it is punishment. Especially given that Skinlink has just vanished in the editions without any explanation.

It is as if the designers decided to fix their system and get players to accept the fact their equipment will be hacked frequently by making defense impossible and punishing everyone who doesn't conform to how they want the game played. Probably, that was not the intent, but it comes across as a spiteful, arrogant, heavyhanded, and very lazy way of solving this. There's no fixing, to adjusting screws and no real Boni. There is taking away of functionality, taking away of defense options, and then it's touted as an improvement.

Apparently, CGL has learned nothing of their communications and writing disasters of the past.

[binarywraith]

i'm having a hard time believing the corps managed to somehow persuade everyone to trade in their old tech, which doesn't require matrix access to function.

i mean, imagine for a second you're making a sales pitch to some government/military. how are you going to persuade them they should stop using the secure, perfectly functional tech they've been using for years, and trade it in for new tech that is *specifically designed to not be secure*.

i mean, yeah, they may not have the best of tech programs, but if you think for a second their major legitimate contracts are going to agree to a design that is deliberately made to be infinitely less secure, well... you must not like verisimilitude very much, because that is the exact opposite of what i would consider to be even remotely believable.

some things could potentially make sense. the vast majority of things will not make even a tiny bit of sense. and it won't be just the shadow community that jailbreaks these things either... this has got to be very annoying from a convenience perspective as well, and probably opens you up to being constantly spammed advertisements...

so really, not only would i expect shadowrunners, criminals, any sort of serious security force, all police organizations, and every single military in the world to jailbreak these things... i would also expect joe average who has to worry about matrix dead zones and who doesn't like being reminded that the upgraded model of whatever he has is 10 times faster every 15 seconds to jailbreak their stuff.

or, in other words, about the only people who won't be jailbreaking are the obedient corp drones that live in corp facilities 24/7. or, in other words... expect to be able to use this on people with no skills (or at least, no skills relevant to shadowrunning) and no connections.

It's the same problem that comes up in the real world all the time when talking about requiring some new feature for gun safety. There are literally millions of them already in circulation without this feature, and they don't break down all that fast. Extend it to literally everything, and it gets really absurd.

I mean, look around at your stuff. Have you replaced literally everything you own in the last five years? If not, why would your character be assumed to have done so?

[Tashiro]

From what I posted elsewhere:
Something else:
1) Edition differences. Things change with Editions. I don't see any reason why the creators have to be 100% beholden to the mechanics of an earlier edition. The shift from 1st to 2nd edition was drastic. 2nd to 3rd was drastic. 3rd to 4th was drastic. Things don't translate 100%. 4th to 5th is 'close', but isn't a direct translation. Nor should it be. So, if things run 'better' when they're wired to the matrix... you can presume that earlier versions (products made in 2060, 2065, 2070) don't run as well as products in the here and now do. Or, consider this. If you've got a cyberdeck from 2050, it is NOT going to run as well as a cyberdeck now. Even if, mechanically, it would be the same. The game doesn't put that much into SOTA fade, so why would anything ten years ago be expected to be as good as the latest tech? Some things are tried and true ... a bullet is a bullet (usually), and a knife is a knife, but when you're getting into actual electronics and mechanics, later technology is going to improve on previous technology in some fashion.

2) The corporations. Maybe they want everyone to be wired to the matrix. And being who they are, they can push the issue. They have the muscle to ensure that their vision is one that trickles down to the public. They're the ones who can add features that only turn on when the device is talking to the matrix, and runs less effectively when it isn't. Why would they do that? Control. This gives them a window into the habits and activities of the public. It restricts illegal activities using their goods. Does this make life harder for runners? Very likely - and you know what? The corporation doesn't care. I can easily see in-setting justification for this kind of activity, and I can easily see this hosing a number of runners. But I see this as an 'evolve or die' situation for characters, and I don't mind this kind of thing. There's excellent in-setting justification for why this could and would happen. Does it have to make sense? Does it make things more complicated for people? Yes. But funny enough... this happens. Sometimes, when people have the choice of the easy path or the complicated path, people take the complicated path, because the benefits they see outweigh (to them), the reward of doing things simply. Humanity isn't rational, and humanity doesn't always see the 'factors' around them. We have the benefit of being able to look at past rules, and see how things have changed, but in-setting, people don't quite have that luxury.

And really... if you don't like the mechanic, don't use it. I personally find the mechanic interesting... I can see an in-setting justification for it, I can see how it would drive some shadowrunners absolutely bonkers, and I'm looking forward to getting my hands on the rules, and taking a good hard look at it. I'm probably use it, specifically because it makes things a bit more tricky for the PCs. Then again, I'd be more inclined to it as a player, too, because I'm certain that it would make my character's lives more difficult.

[binarywraith]

Of course they're not bound to the old mechanics. They are however bound to the setting that they've chosen to work with. Look how much story effort it took to make over the Matrix system into the kludge of 4e. Crash 2.0 ring a bell?

Going to all that trouble to keep the setting congruent with the mechanics, then going with 'it just works like this' for a similarly large change in the way the world works is exactly why people are calling it out as crap.

[Wakshaani]

Heck, here's a basic gameplay example.

What happens with the wireless-necessary systems when you go out into the NAN lands where there isn't anything to produce an omnipresent network?

Is SR intended to be a strictly urban game now?

Several NAN areas are quite high tech, by the by. The Sioux have some nova-hot computer tech, and the PCC are even hotter in that field (And have top-level air superiority craft and many other tech bits) ... but, that's a different discussion.

In areas where you can't get a good Matrix connection, well, you probably won't get the bonuses. Being out at sea, for instance, or in feral zones, you have to make do.

[Jaid]

@tashiro: if the stuff they're making now runs better but is infinitely less secure, it won't be running better for long if they're up against any remotely serious opponent.

especially for things like highly specialized combat gear, i will take 90% of the effectiveness for an infinitely large increase in security any day. because that extra 10% effectiveness only exists when nobody decides to take advantage of the lack of security, at which point the SOTA person likely not only is not getting their extra 10% effectiveness, but is in fact probably being made less effective than a completely mundane unaugmented human would be.

it's even more ridiculous when you consider the relative ease of bringing matrix assets to bear against an opponent dumb enough to leave all their equipment accessible to it.

[Kruger]

Heck, here's a basic gameplay example.

What happens with the wireless-necessary systems when you go out into the NAN lands where there isn't anything to produce an omnipresent network?

Is SR intended to be a strictly urban game now?

They could generate their own wireless hotspot for a LAN, lol.


But hey, don't take that as an excuse for the stupidity of the rumored game mechanic of SR5. The "things that are wired should be wireless" was a big part of what turned me off of SR4. I mean it's kinda ludicrous that something called "Wired Reflexes" would need anything to be wireless. It's literally a series of implanted nervous system augmenters. What is it wirelessly connecting to? Seems fairly easy to run another 6 inches of "wire" to the brain controller, lol.

Ultimately, a lot of what SR4 (and now 5 it seems) suggested were products that nobody would actually use (even normal civilians in a lot of cases), and just wrote off the discrepancy by saying "Well, everybody does" in rolling with it. It's kinda funny, when you think about it. A game which features ridiculously advanced professional hackers, exists in a world where nobody would have created hacks for pretty much any and all of the technology to remove any unwanted characteristics.

People are pirating copies of just about everything these days, cracking/jailbreaking phones just to do it, and there are even large communities of people writing free open source software. And yet nobody in Shadowrun is offering up cracked firmware/software that eliminates any built-in weaknesses in cyberware used by high tech professional criminals? Come the hell on, lol. There's no way that shadowrunners are using anything with factory DRM on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But it's a pointless argument in the end. Catalyst will write it into the game, and players will write it out of the game like they did before, and first time players at conventions or something will say "That doesn't make a bit of sense".

[Cochise]

And yet nobody in Shadowrun is offering up cracked firmware/software that eliminates any built-in weaknesses in cyberware used by high tech professional criminals? Come the hell on, lol. There's no way that shadowrunners are using anything with factory DRM on it. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

To be fair there: Up until the last few books of SR3 the base assumption was that nobody actually could offer cracked firmware to such degrees.

[Mäx]

The matrix consists of nodes. Therefore node is a (very minor) matrix. Or do you imply that there have to be a specific numbers of nodes connected?

What you're doing here is same as if i connected my computer to my brothers computer throught our internal network and then claim that i'm now connected to internet.
To count as being connected to the matrix you have to actually be connected to the matrix and not just your PAN, how is this so hard to understand.

[Kruger]

To be fair there: Up until the last few books of SR3 the base assumption was that nobody actually could offer cracked firmware to such degrees.

Almost nothing in SR3 was written with so many built-in security faults, lol. There wasn't a need to crack the cyberware in SR3 because it was written almost with the assumption that it was actually designed with the required performance in mind. I mean, I'm sure there are examples, but I'm having a hard time coming up with any bits of runner gear that suffered from anything other than what could be reasonably considered as inherently implied insecurities.

[binarywraith]

To be fair there: Up until the last few books of SR3 the base assumption was that nobody actually could offer cracked firmware to such degrees.

Are you joking, or did you just forget that the SR3 programming rules (if I remember correctly, my Matrix 2.0 book's out in the gameroom) had rules for the programming tests to write your own firmware. Down to custom-written MPCP chips for decks, and everything you need to know to print and burn your own chips for it.

Offering such firmware wasn't a commercial thing in SR3 because it didn't need to be, any decker worth the name could fix it in their sleep.

[Cochise]

Almost nothing in SR3 was written with so many built-in security faults, lol. There wasn't a need to crack the cyberware in SR3 because it was written almost with the assumption that it was actually designed with the required performance in mind. I mean, I'm sure there are examples, but I'm having a hard time coming up with any bits of runner gear that suffered from anything other than what could be reasonably considered as inherently implied insecurities.

You need not come up with runner gear that suffered similar "faults", because that wasn't the part I was talking about. I was talking about the fact that prior to the SotA books of 3rd Ed. file sharing, cracking and firmware reprogramming on a broader scale were virtually non-existant on a technical level (at least fluff wise). Deckers "cooked" their firmware chips for their decks but that kind of was it. Pretty much everything else was (near) perfect closed source and most of the tech needed computer resources (in form of large host systems) that kept things out of the grey market. Removing programming faults from existant code was extremely difficult even for good coders.

So I can actully fathom the idea of coders not (yet) having found ways around these "wireless on" restrictions within the core rules (and providing the means in form of an advanced ruleset in SR5's version of Unwired wouldn't surprise me the least), since the "you can't touch this" idea in coding isn't new to SR ... However, that doesn't change the fact that I also find this particular implementation to be one of the most ridiculous changes in SR historyy.

[Mikado]

And your chemical seal seals up as an action you have to take, unless its wireless, in which case it's some free, nonwithstanding the fact that literally nothing needs it to have anything but a DNI to you.

I can think of a way that this make sense...

The onboard chemical scanner does not have enough memory to keep a list of every possible chemical so it uploads what it detects and lets a central sever decide if it should do something about it. And the corporations can use it as a marketing ploy to the general public.... get real time smog alerts in your area from all of your neighbors from this device.
Or
Your smartgun can get accurate up-to-date localized wind and weather conditions out to 2000m so it can predict bullet trajectory and factor in the wind/rain whatever during the entire flight time instead of estimating it when you fire.

Now... That is not saying I agree with the rule and I would not use it anyway. But it is easy to come up with in-game logic for devices getting bonuses for being always connected.

[Kruger]

You need not come up with runner gear that suffered similar "faults", because that wasn't the part I was talking about. I was talking about the fact that prior to the SotA books of 3rd Ed. file sharing, cracking and firmware reprogramming on a broader scale were virtually non-existant on a technical level (at least fluff wise). Deckers "cooked" their firmware chips for their decks but that kind of was it. Pretty much everything else was (near) perfect closed source and most of the tech needed computer resources (in form of large host systems) that kept things out of the grey market. Removing programming faults from existant code was extremely difficult even for good coders.

So I can actully fathom the idea of coders not (yet) having found ways around these "wireless on" restrictions within the core rules (and providing the means in form of an advanced ruleset in SR5's version of Unwired wouldn't surprise me the least), since the "you can't touch this" idea in coding isn't new to SR ... However, that doesn't change the fact that I also find this particular implementation to be one of the most ridiculous changes in SR historyy.

Yeah, but look at when most SR3 books were written, lol. They have at least somewhat of an excuse for anachronisms.

Nope. SR4/5 is just stupid.

[Draco18s]

I can imagine that it's a manufacture uplink you need. Like all the games and software nowadays "need" an internet connection to work. It's not a necessity to funtion, but the manufacture wants to make sure you're connected and he can keep track of his stuff.

This is how I'm viewing it too - it's similar to present day Xbox or SimCity nonsense. I'd allow anyone with a Hardware skill and a few hours to make this mod, similiar to the hot-sim mod allowed for the sim module.

My two cents:
I like this rational. It fits right in with the fact that everyone hates DRM, but still buys shit with invasive DRM and puts up with it anyway despite their loathing of it.

Players will still go to great lengths to not be online and vulnerable, so nothing will have changed in the game other than making (large?) portions of the player-base angry at this bad idea.

As to this:
The players might but who says the opposition did? This change gives PC hackers toys to mess with too, you know.

[binarywraith]

As to this:
The players might but who says the opposition did? This change gives PC hackers toys to mess with too, you know.

The opposition is generally other 'runners and/or corpsec. Neither will likely have invasive DRM issues, either due to being issued non-problematic versions by their employers, or being in the same sort of mindset as the players.

[Epicedion]

From what I posted elsewhere:
Something else:
1) Edition differences. Things change with Editions. I don't see any reason why the creators have to be 100% beholden to the mechanics of an earlier edition. The shift from 1st to 2nd edition was drastic. 2nd to 3rd was drastic. 3rd to 4th was drastic. Things don't translate 100%. 4th to 5th is 'close', but isn't a direct translation. Nor should it be. So, if things run 'better' when they're wired to the matrix... you can presume that earlier versions (products made in 2060, 2065, 2070) don't run as well as products in the here and now do. Or, consider this. If you've got a cyberdeck from 2050, it is NOT going to run as well as a cyberdeck now. Even if, mechanically, it would be the same. The game doesn't put that much into SOTA fade, so why would anything ten years ago be expected to be as good as the latest tech? Some things are tried and true ... a bullet is a bullet (usually), and a knife is a knife, but when you're getting into actual electronics and mechanics, later technology is going to improve on previous technology in some fashion.

Edition differences are one thing. Wired Reflexes in SR4 couldn't possibly work mechanically the same as Wired Reflexes in SR3 or SR5, because the Initiative system is different, Reaction is different, and the whole device needs to be tuned specifically to the edition rules (+2 in one edition may not equal +2 in another edition). That's all fine and dandy.

What's being implemented here, though, is a change in the lore of how things work, with accompanying mechanical changes to back up that lore.

Compare Smartlinks. Smartlinks no longer make it easier to hit, out of the box. They make the gun "more accurate" (which doesn't give you an actual bonus in order to accomplish shooting). Smartlinks in SR3 made it easier to hit by lowering the TN. Smartlinks in SR4 made it easier to hit by giving you extra dice. Now Smartlinks no longer make it easier to hit unless you hook it up to some network (presumably). That's a fundamental change in the lore of the Smartlink. Smartlinks no longer do what they used to do unless you take some extra steps with them that weren't required previously.

That's my whole point in the matter -- the imposition of online-vulnerable gear is a change in the way the SR universe works, with accompanying mechanical changes. What kills me is that there doesn't seem to be an accompanying lore reason for technology taking this tack. It's being set out there with a "oh this is how they work" without regard for adapting the existing universe rules to the new universe rules.

This is the same sort of thing that crashed shaman and mage summoning into one lumpy mush, or converted Otaku (with their necessary cyberware) into Technomancers (who are allergic to cyberware in the same way as mages). The universe changed, presumably to satisfy some developer's desires, but it didn't really change for a good, evaluated reason.

[apple]

As to this:
The players might but who says the opposition did? This change gives PC hackers toys to mess with too, you know.

But it was already possible in SR4 - in a far more logical way.

SYL

[Epicedion]

But it was already possible in SR4 - in a far more logical way.

SYL

There are plenty of other things they could've added for hackers, anyway:

1) CorpSec upgrades -- corporate security uses integrated visual and audio recorders as mobile sensors for the security base station. Isolating and neutralizing security personnel requires a hacker to shut them out of communications and replace them with a dummy so the system doesn't notice and sound an alarm.

2) Immediate security rigging -- technology is now advanced enough that decks can grab specific objects. Rather than having to fully hack a site to get a specific camera or door panel, you can directly hack any object you can isolate (IE, see). A good AR observe in detail type action could be to scan and tag broadcasting devices and dump them on yours or your team's visual overlay.
The hacker leans out into the hallway and runs a scan. Popped up on his monocle are the symbols and device names for a camera, an elevator RFID scanner, and a laser tripwire. He disables the tripwire and puts the camera into a loop. A better-hidden decibel meter in the ceiling is missed by the hacker's sweep, though..

3) Decoys. The hacker sets up a remote relay on the other side of the compound, and uses it to brute force attack the security node. CorpSec quickly tracks the location of the the hacker and sends a security detachment, and then finds.. a small box with an antenna. Meanwhile, the team has broken into the lab, snatched the MacGuffin, and made it back over the fence before security got wise to what was happening.

Other stuff, for sure.

[Nal0n]

Do basic cybereyes even have bonuses (except of course besides "you can see now")?

SYL

If they keep it from SR4a they have Image Link and Video Recording included.

[binarywraith]

If they keep it from SR4a they have Image Link and Video Recording included.

Fun note, if standard cybereyes come with Image Link and Video Recording, are hackable by default, and GOD sees all Matrix traffic, doesn't that mean that every Joe Salaryman with a set of cybereyes is a mobile security camera for the AAA's?

[ShadowDragon8685]

I can think of a way that this make sense...

Hold on to your hat, you're about to get shredded, boyo.

The onboard chemical scanner does not have enough memory to keep a list of every possible chemical so it uploads what it detects and lets a central sever decide if it should do something about it. And the corporations can use it as a marketing ploy to the general public.... get real time smog alerts in your area from all of your neighbors from this device.

So, exactly what happened to the "Unless you're dealing with truely spectacular amounts of data, memory has gotten so small and so cheap that you have enough computer memory to store whatever you need to store" thing? Hmmm? Where did that go - what happened, did some Great Dragon or Immortal Elf wave a magic wand and reduce all computer storage memory to 1/1000th of its size on 1/1/2075?

No, they did not.

Also, even taking your preposterous claim that the suit's onboard storage has to contain every imaginable chemical warfare agent (instead of just saying, for instance, "Okay, something unknown was detected, seal up,") what about my commlink? It's going to be much faster for it to access my commlink than "the cloud" or the "central server," and for my commlink to say "hey, seal up." Or, better still, for me to just say "Hey, holy shit, that guy threw a grenade and there's a green cloud coming out of it, DNI command: Seal up!"

Preposterous, that's what this claim is. It's trying to retroactively justify a game "balance" decision that nobody wanted.

Your smartgun can get accurate up-to-date localized wind and weather conditions out to 2000m so it can predict bullet trajectory and factor in the wind/rain whatever during the entire flight time instead of estimating it when you fire.

Funnily enough, my commlink - you know, the choke-point where my PAN has the highest security - does that anyway, and is feeding that data to my smartlink via my skinlink, or even my fiber-optic cable, if I'm feeling particularly retro. Also, this presumes that weather data which has a granularity fine enough to determine differences between where I am and where I'm shooting at is actually available, which is unlikely unless the world has carpeted in miniature weather stations.

Now... That is not saying I agree with the rule and I would not use it anyway. But it is easy to come up with in-game logic for devices getting bonuses for being always connected.

No, it is not. Not any of them that stand up to more than a moment's scrutiny.

[apple]

Could we please stop making the smartlink into a tacnet. A smartlink makes a crosshair visible in our field of vision. It is not a tacnet.

SYL

[Draco18s]

Additional 2 cents:

People are complaining that the changes to the matrix system are worse than they were before?
Golly gee, what a surprise.

This only further enforces the opinion that the matrix is unfixable. That is: no set of rules is going to work for everybody. Sit down, shut up, and play.

[apple]

The discussion is not about the matrix rule system itself, but a rather important design/lore decision, that everything need to be online, to get bonuses (besides limit breaking). And that is not unfixable (because it was not there in the first place, but added in SR5).

SYL

[binarywraith]

Exactly. The rest of what we've seen of SR5's Matrix setup has been pretty well accepted. Converting hacking to no longer be as time consuming, and simplifying the way programs and ratings work are exactly what many people were calling for as the fix to SR4's problems.

It's the always-on bullshit that's got people riled.

[hermit]

That was something the designers wanted, because they took the players not wanting it in SR4 as an incentive to introduce it more forceful in SR5. And what's much, much worse, they did so lazily and in the worst possible way. Wireless Boni are a good tool, if they're actually Boni. As is, they're taking away functionality unless you bend over to be device hacked.

[RHat]

Also, even taking your preposterous claim that the suit's onboard storage has to contain every imaginable chemical warfare agent (instead of just saying, for instance, "Okay, something unknown was detected, seal up,") what about my commlink? It's going to be much faster for it to access my commlink than "the cloud" or the "central server," and for my commlink to say "hey, seal up." Or, better still, for me to just say "Hey, holy shit, that guy threw a grenade and there's a green cloud coming out of it, DNI command: Seal up!"

Please explain how that works if the chem seal isn't connected to anything.

[Mäx]

Please explain how that works if the chem seal isn't connected to anything.

But it is, just not to the matrix.

[RHat]

But it is, just not to the matrix.

If you can shut off your commlink's wireless, sure. I'm still wondering if that's explicitly made possible in SR5.

[Shemhazai]

Some thoughts. Anger directed at me for them will be ignored.

If using a skinlink, would it be fair for a hacker that can touch you or something connected to you through it to hack your things?

If something touching you is skinlink capable and matrix enabled, could it be hacked to serve as a bridge to you by enabling the skinlink capability?

Could there be a special round (dart) especially for attaching this kind of bridge onto you?

If using fiber cables, would it be fair for a critical glitch on a damage resistance test to result in a bullet going right through one?

Could some combatants well-versed in cyberware knowledge purposely target those wires with a well-placed slash, not unlike going for the jugular? Could a very skilled sniper try his luck?

Could bandwidth be an issue? Could wireless protocols of the future implement a nearly full-spectrum approach that at very near distance can utilize the combined bandwidth equivalent to multiple high definition satellite channels (by today's standards).

Could the difference between the speed of light traveling in a direct, straight line between your systems, and therefore potentially remotely hackable, make any difference as opposed to the speed of light through fiber (slower) that may need to curve to reach its destination (requiring a slightly longer distance)? What about the latency of converting an electrical signal into photons able to travel through the fiber, as opposed to the electrical current needed to broadcast? Is it plausible that your body or nerves are also not as fast?

Does this nerf cybered characters in favor of deckers? If cyberware is unable to let characters safely max out their intuition, does that further empower magicians that can, and can do it for their teammates?

[Mäx]

If you can shut off your commlink's wireless, sure. I'm still wondering if that's explicitly made possible in SR5.

If you can't then you just use a signal 0 commlink for your PAN, but really not being able to turn of commlinks wireless would be some serious BS.

[apple]

Some thoughts. Anger directed at me for them will be ignored.

You are talking about standard setups in SR4? Because that is what you are asking, and it was already answered throughout the sourcebooks in SR4.

Does this nerf cybered characters in favor of deckers? If cyberware is unable to let characters safely max out their intuition, does that further empower magicians that can, and can do it for their teammates?

Well, lets just say that playing a troll streetsam (especially if they get the first version of the basic book with +50% cost for troll cyberware and troll bioware *giggle*) won´t perhaps the most popular character choice ever. My bet is the mystic adept with an area jammer.

SYL

[Seerow]

You know a lot of the problems seem to come from the issue that rather than total immunity, you rely on your hacker to defend you. Similarly, a big problem I have with the magic rules is that the only way to protect against magic, is with magic. There seems to be a strong parallel here where you have a hacker on your team not just to fuck with the enemy team, but also to protect your own. Similarly you have a Mage not just for his magic shenanigans, but to prevent enemy casters from tearing you apart like tissue paper.

It almost feels like what's needed is a third axis, something that Sammys protect their teammates against that without them would kill the mages/hackers. Problem is, there's really nothing that fits that bill in any logical sense. Alternatively there should be relatively cheap/easy ways for people not belonging to a certain specialization to defend themselves from attacks of another specialization (ie how Armor protects Hackers/Mages from bullets).

[RHat]

If you can't then you just use a signal 0 commlink for your PAN, but really not being able to turn of commlinks wireless would be some serious BS.

Even with Signal 0, you're gonna be online. And not being able to turn of wireless sounds like something the corps would put together.

[apple]

Alternatively there should be relatively cheap/easy ways for people

You mean, like in SR4, with disabled wifi, a centralised PAN, a secured commlink with an agent/ICE running surveillance? Which every non-hacker could buy for some thousand ¥, depending on which rule you use?

JH already stated, that this had crippled the hacker in combat and is no longer wished. You MUST be hackabale, otherwise the hacker has NO options in combat (because there is no tacnet, drone remote control or radio communication to manipulate in SR4) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL

[KarmaInferno]

Nah, you can still run with your Matrix connection off.

You just get gimped for doing that.




-k

[Epicedion]

Some thoughts. Anger directed at me for them will be ignored.

If using a skinlink, would it be fair for a hacker that can touch you or something connected to you through it to hack your things?

If something touching you is skinlink capable and matrix enabled, could it be hacked to serve as a bridge to you by enabling the skinlink capability?

Could there be a special round (dart) especially for attaching this kind of bridge onto you?

If using fiber cables, would it be fair for a critical glitch on a damage resistance test to result in a bullet going right through one?

Could some combatants well-versed in cyberware knowledge purposely target those wires with a well-placed slash, not unlike going for the jugular? Could a very skilled sniper try his luck?

Could bandwidth be an issue? Could wireless protocols of the future implement a nearly full-spectrum approach that at very near distance can utilize the combined bandwidth equivalent to multiple high definition satellite channels (by today's standards).

Could the difference between the speed of light traveling in a direct, straight line between your systems, and therefore potentially remotely hackable, make any difference as opposed to the speed of light through fiber (slower) that may need to curve to reach its destination (requiring a slightly longer distance)? What about the latency of converting an electrical signal into photons able to travel through the fiber, as opposed to the electrical current needed to broadcast? Is it plausible that your body or nerves are also not as fast?

Does this nerf cybered characters in favor of deckers? If cyberware is unable to let characters safely max out their intuition, does that further empower magicians that can, and can do it for their teammates?

No anger.

I think this was part of the mistake of making previously cyber-only gear available as non-cyberware. If you look at the transition from SR3 to SR4, a lot of the really important benefits of smartlinks, cybereyes, and cyberears (primarily those three) were restricted to installed cyberware. SR4 took those things and applied them without penalty to small bits of gear you could wear with no essence loss.

That is, you could wear vision-enhancement contact lenses with a display link and skinlink connected to your smartlink, and earbuds with spatial recognizers and record everything on your commlink (skinlinked) and transmit information to your team without ever using an invasive bit of cyberware. By and large you could skip the transmission step and keep everything local.

In SR3 you could do similar stuff, but at huge penalties. Non-invasive ("external") smartlinks took the form of special goggles with bulky cables and even then didn't provide the same level of benefit (-1 TN for external, -2 TN for internal, which was a relatively huge advantage). Vision enhancement could be accomplished with goggles or binoculars, but they were bulky and obvious and had to be put on and taken off. Recording images and sounds required extra equipment, and required links to storage and transmission media in order to get the full benefit. Also these objects were generally limited to a handful of operating modes, and you couldn't toggle them freely like you could with the DNI of cyberware.

I think for SR5 they should really have reestablished the barrier between internal cyberware and external gear. Then they should have killed the skinlink for mass data transfer (say that transferring large amounts of information over long patches of skin is too easily disrupted, too much resistance, etc, and force the hookups to be wireless that way). Internal cyberware costs Essence and should be relatively free from interference, generally not obvious (unless intentionally made obvious or spotted by a millimeter wave scanner), and fast. External gear should require some transmission sites (eyes and ears could be routed through a Google Glass type headset and wirelessly connected to your commlink which serves as a data processor and storage medium, smartlinks would have to wirelessly connect through your commlink to those devices, etc), and be vulnerable to hacking.

So then you could have your physical adept with his smartlinked contact lenses and noise filter earbuds hooked through his glasses, but he'd be hackable. Meanwhile the guy who spends Essence and large amounts of cash could have his eyes and ears replaced and a nerve-induction data line to a smartlink skinpad, and not be hackable.

And then the internal cyberware should provide better results than the external stuff (in SR5 lingo, +1 accuracy +1 die for external, +2 accuracy +2 dice for internal?), in addition to being more secure. They could easily make it so there could be literally no debate over why someone would buy the internal cyberware rather than the external gadgets.

But if they're following the SR4 trend, then it's backwards. There are presumably large benefits to not getting the full replacement, since for example contacts are cheap, easy, noninvasive, and hey, if you get hacked you can always pluck them out.

All in all, most of the wireless non-cyberware technology out of SR4 and later is too good for the game and needed to be scaled back. Following the trend, I'd expect to see 'trode-induced reflex enhancers that cost 0 Essence and mimicked Wired Reflexes. Or spray-on peel-off dermal plating.

[binarywraith]

You mean, like in SR4, with disabled wifi, a centralised PAN, a secured commlink with an agent/ICE running surveillance? Which every non-hacker could buy for some thousand ¥, depending on which rule you use?

JH already stated, that this had crippled the hacker in combat and is no longer wished. You MUST be hackabale, otherwise the hacker has NO options in combat (because there is no tacnet, drone remote control or radio communication to manipulate in SR4) (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

SYL

Also, hackers have their thumbs surgically amputated when they get their cyberdecks, so they can't buy a handgun. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

It seems like, in part, the answer to the necessity of Matrix Aware cybernetic augmentation has to be Big Data™.

Big Data is a silly buzz word in a lot of respects, but the underlying technology and applications of big data are not insignificant. Today, decades and decades prior to SR 5th Edition, Big Data is getting good at predicting what you're thinking before you've realized you're thinking it.

It knows your favorite play lists, it knows the things you regularly order for your home, it knows how frequently you go to the gym, it remembers the childhood phone numbers that you have long forgotten. It can tell when your kids are home by the things you're streaming, and it can tell when you're a bachelor for the weekend because of the all the sports you consume. In ten years, it can probably remind you of an old ex you had, then talk you into buying her flowers after opening a new American Express card.

And Big Data is getting better at making you think you're a special snowflake while it sorts you into your appropriate prepackaged behavior profile.

Fifth edition has extrapolated, in some respects, Big Data out to levels that our current grasp of technology can't fully appreciate. Yes, the change is fundamental. But Technology changes things (and itself changes) fundamentally.

I'm not going to defend that part of this implementation is gimmicky. And as the type of player whose frequently driving a Samurai, I don't necessarily relish another part of Shadowrun that gives a nod to the superiority of Magic. But hyperbole filled remarks like "There is literally no reason for X, Y, and Z!!!" is silly. On multiple fronts.

It is not unimaginable that the scope of data and efficient decision matrix processing power sixty years in the future is like nothing you've personally encountered, and can completely comprehend.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[apple]

Well, apparently it was possible to run without your wired reflexes offline just before Dec 31 2075 ... and one day all the cozy reaction enhancers stopped working. While being offline. In your spinal cord. Consisting of superconducting material.

SYL

[Epicedion]

It seems like, in part, the answer to the necessity of Matrix Aware cybernetic augmentation has to be Big Data™.

Big Data is a silly buzz word in a lot of respects, but the underlying technology and applications of big data are not insignificant. Today, decades and decades prior to SR 5th Edition, Big Data is getting good at predicting what you're thinking before you've realized you're thinking it.

It knows your favorite play lists, it knows the things you regularly order for your home, it knows how frequently you go to the gym, it remembers the childhood phone numbers that you have long forgotten. It can tell when your kids are home by the things you're streaming, and it can tell when you're a bachelor for the weekend because of the all the sports you consume. In ten years, it can probably remind you of an old ex you had, then talk you into buying her flowers after opening a new American Express card.

And Big Data is getting better at making you think you're a special snowflake while it sorts you into your appropriate prepackaged behavior profile.

Fifth edition has extrapolated, in some respects, Big Data out to levels that our current grasp of technology can't fully appreciate. Yes, the change is fundamental. But Technology changes things (and itself changes) fundamentally.

I'm not going to defend that part of this implementation is gimmicky. And as the type of player whose frequently driving a Samurai, I don't necessarily relish another part of Shadowrun that gives a nod to the superiority of Magic. But hyperbole filled remarks like "There is literally no reason for X, Y, and Z!!!" is silly. On multiple fronts.

It is not unimaginable that the scope of data and efficient decision matrix processing power sixty years in the future is like nothing you've personally encountered, and can completely comprehend.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

That said, they should have kept data transfer, storage, and processing limitations in the game as a balancing agent. One of the problems inherent in your Big Data is that a huge component is metadata (that is, data about data). While your Excel spreadsheet or Access database might only contain a few hundred kilobytes of actual legible text, the metadata part tells you all the important stuff -- what's cross-referenced how and where, what meaningful information can be determined from this bit and that bit and this other bit all together, and so on. Storing a million useful facts about 100 pieces of data. Which is part of why databases get huge and hard to process in real life.

SR used to recognize that as Megapulses, which were a creative way of recording the general ratio of metadata-to-data, efficiency of storage compression to available storage, and the bulk of processing power, without getting into the fine details of how many sectors your cyberdeck hard drive has, or how many gigahertz your processor runs at. This week, since those numbers would be changing constantly. Megapulses could be defined at the industry-average level, and software/hardware upgrades could be tacitly assumed to keep pace.

With that sort of mindset, then you could write in a host of benefits and limitations to keep things in check. Sorry, your commlink can only handle 50 megapulses at one time, so you can't have all of your equipment on at once or everything's going to get throttled back to compensate. Or you're able to overclock your smartlink since it's the only operation running right now. That sort of thing.

[binarywraith]

It seems like, in part, the answer to the necessity of Matrix Aware cybernetic augmentation has to be Big Data™.

Big Data is a silly buzz word in a lot of respects, but the underlying technology and applications of big data are not insignificant. Today, decades and decades prior to SR 5th Edition, Big Data is getting good at predicting what you're thinking before you've realized you're thinking it.

It knows your favorite play lists, it knows the things you regularly order for your home, it knows how frequently you go to the gym, it remembers the childhood phone numbers that you have long forgotten. It can tell when your kids are home by the things you're streaming, and it can tell when you're a bachelor for the weekend because of the all the sports you consume. In ten years, it can probably remind you of an old ex you had, then talk you into buying her flowers after opening a new American Express card.

And Big Data is getting better at making you think you're a special snowflake while it sorts you into your appropriate prepackaged behavior profile.

Fifth edition has extrapolated, in some respects, Big Data out to levels that our current grasp of technology can't fully appreciate. Yes, the change is fundamental. But Technology changes things (and itself changes) fundamentally.

I'm not going to defend that part of this implementation is gimmicky. And as the type of player whose frequently driving a Samurai, I don't necessarily relish another part of Shadowrun that gives a nod to the superiority of Magic. But hyperbole filled remarks like "There is literally no reason for X, Y, and Z!!!" is silly. On multiple fronts.

It is not unimaginable that the scope of data and efficient decision matrix processing power sixty years in the future is like nothing you've personally encountered, and can completely comprehend.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

'There is literally no reason' is the more reasonable argument.

Extrapolating Big Data, along with the existence of GOD as it has been explained, means that shadowrunning is impossible. Since 4e decided years ago to ignore the actual cost and limitations of processing data, assuming a surveillance state and Big Data levels of correlation of data, along with every set of cybereyes on the planet being hackable, means that the people in power (the AAA megacorps that make up GOD's backers) can real-time cross reference all known data about anyone.

That means no more anonymity, no more plausible deniability.

In short, no more shadowrunners.

[apple]

Oh, btw, can some of the SR5 Origin owner confirm or deny, that you need a wireless enabled mini grenade and a wireless enabled grenade launcher to detonate the grenade in the same action? Which previously was simply an airburst link and a set amount of time after launch? Just found that rumor.

SYL

[Valerian]

I think that we miss an information from SR5 rules about "matrix bonus":

Does your commlink is still a gate between the matrix and your PAN and all your equipements (including some cyberwares) are slaved to it or not ?

If yes, perhaps you receive "matrix bonus" for devices slaved to your commlink and no bonus for isolated gears.
But now, a hacker can hack your commlink and then corrupt (or switch off) your slaved gears.

For the exemple of the chemsuit, it is slaved to your commlink and now received data from your teammates or a scouting drone with a chemical detector and then it could be closed faster.

For the wired reflexes and reaction enhancer, they need to exchange data to add their bonus, so they are both linked to your commlink.

Indeed, it's more a question of "network bonus" than "matrix bonus".

if the answer is no... "network bonus" could be an house rule which give more senses.

[apple]

And another round: what happens if you are in a desert? Or in a building with wifi inhabitating walls (like every research facility, corp HQ, black site ops etc). Online is then ... off? And with that your entire equipment?

if the answer is no... "network bonus" could be an house rule which give more senses.

No, not really. One of the points is that is seems very strange that this amount of data MUST be forced over third party items/networks/matrix and not simply transmitted via cable, skinlink or DNI.

SYL

[KarmaInferno]

I think that we miss an information from SR5 rules about "matrix bonus":

Does your commlink is still a gate between the matrix and your PAN and all your equipements (including some cyberwares) are slaved to it or not ?

If yes, perhaps you receive "matrix bonus" for devices slaved to your commlink and no bonus for isolated gears.
But now, a hacker can hack your commlink and then corrupt (or switch off) your slaved gears.

For the exemple of the chemsuit, it is slaved to your commlink and now received data from your teammates or a scouting drone with a chemical detector and then it could be closed faster.

For the wired reflexes and reaction enhancer, they need to exchange data to add their bonus, so they are both linked to your commlink.

Indeed, it's more a question of "network bonus" than "matrix bonus".

if the answer is no... "network bonus" could be an house rule which give more senses.

They make no rules comment on how a piece of wireless-bonus-capable gear might access the Matrix, just that the gear needs a Matrix connection to get the bonus.



-k

[Shemhazai]

Well, apparently it was possible to run without your wired reflexes offline just before Dec 31 2075 ...

Lots of things changed on that day. In my view, the year moving forward is to keep the game world sufficiently in the future. Rules can change.

I'm still open minded and cautiously optimistic, and yes, I can feel that there are changes that I disagree with. Just about every long-running fiction I can think of is full of instances where I can't believe they actually had certain things happen. Star Wars, Star Trek, Superman, Shadowrun, they all have things I don't like in them.

[binarywraith]

They make no rules comment on how a piece of wireless-bonus-capable gear might access the Matrix, just that the gear needs a Matrix connection to get the bonus.



-k

Which just says to me that even the devs admit there's no good way to explain it other than 'we shoehorned this mechanic in'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

[Wired_SR_AEGIS]

'There is literally no reason' is the more reasonable argument.

Extrapolating Big Data, along with the existence of GOD as it has been explained, means that shadowrunning is impossible. Since 4e decided years ago to ignore the actual cost and limitations of processing data, assuming a surveillance state and Big Data levels of correlation of data, along with every set of cybereyes on the planet being hackable, means that the people in power (the AAA megacorps that make up GOD's backers) can real-time cross reference all known data about anyone.

That means no more anonymity, no more plausible deniability.

In short, no more shadowrunners.

Separate discussion (Though certainly one worth having): Big Data in the context of Shadowrunners, Signal, and Noise. Short Answer: No. Longer Answer: Well, yes. Sort of.

This discussion: Justification for matrix aware cybernetic augmentation functioning above and beyond matrix unaware augmentation.

Answer: Matrix aware augmentation is SmartWare. Matrix ignorant augmentation is DumbWare. Done.

-Wired_SR_AEGIS

[binarywraith]

Answer: Matrix aware augmentation is SmartWare. Matrix ignorant augmentation is DumbWare. Done.

Cool idea, if it was supported by the rules, rather than removing basic function of dumbware and putting it behind the 'must be this dumb to ride' paywall of opening yourself up to hackers.

[KarmaInferno]

Which just says to me that even the devs admit there's no good way to explain it other than 'we shoehorned this mechanic in'. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/love.gif)

As I said, most of the wireless bonuses give zero in-universe justification for their existance.

Just a general "expose your ass for this nifty expose-your-ass bonus".



-k

[apple]

They make no rules comment on how a piece of wireless-bonus-capable gear might access the Matrix, just that the gear needs a Matrix connection to get the bonus.

So, is the "workaround" with "i use my commlink as minor matrix and such reduce everything to signal 0" forbidden by the rules or allowed (by not being forbidden).

SYL

[Epicedion]

As I said, most of the wireless bonuses give zero in-universe justification for their existance.

Just a general "expose your ass for this nifty expose-your-ass bonus".



-k

And that's what really kills me. It's a major turn-off to the game in general. Shadowrun is a game universe that requires solid internal justifications, because the gameplay specifically relies on exploiting the reality of the game universe to your advantage.

[DireRadiant]

In SR5 you are either connected to the matrix, or not at all. So having wireless, and getting the bonus, means you are connecting to the matrix. (Your commlink, PAN, and freidnly Decker/TM are what can protect you, but you are on the Grid)

There is no separation between devices other than distance and noise.

So the Wired Reflexes and Reaction Enhancers must be devices available on the matrix via "wireless" if they are to interact at all.

I'm sure there will be an expensive option costing essence and nuyen to directly link the two piece, or perhaps a Move By Wire system that incorporates both bonuses in a later release.

Whether you like this model of the Matrix is up to you, but that's how it works in SR5.

[Sengir]

The onboard chemical scanner does not have enough memory to keep a list of every possible chemical so it uploads what it detects and lets a central sever decide if it should do something about it.

What onboard scanner? This is not about the chemsuit autonomously deciding to seal up, this is about the user deciding to seal his suit which suddenly requires less user intervention because the suit can post a twitter update about it.

[Cheops]

This has probably been said but I don't want to bother reading all the posts. The problem with hacking in combat was never that it couldn't be done -- it was the fact that it couldn't be done FAST enough.

Breaking encryption was measured in Combat TURNS in a version of the rules where at most it took the Street Sam and Mage 1 PASS to down an enemy. If you couldn't decrypt in 3 seconds flat then you were better off shooting most of the time. Then Unhinged went made it 24 hours to decrypt.

Previously a decker could down encryption in 1 pass if his programs were good enough (either attack or decrypt). This meant that an edition that was designed from the ground up was harder to hack people's guns during combat than an edition where the IDEA of doing such a thing hadn't even been thought yet. Google wasn't really a thing when Matrix was written. Blackberry's and tablets were the realm of science fiction. And the rules still supported AR hacking better than SR4.

Fucking fail.

[KarmaInferno]

So, is the "workaround" with "i use my commlink as minor matrix and such reduce everything to signal 0" forbidden by the rules or allowed (by not being forbidden).

SYL

Your personal PAN is not The Matrix, any more than your home wifi router is in itself The Internet.

The whole point of the new rules is to get people to expose themselves to outside hacks. It was just done in a hamfisted inelegant clumsy fashion.




-k

[Epicedion]

And that's what really kills me. It's a major turn-off to the game in general. Shadowrun is a game universe that requires solid internal justifications, because the gameplay specifically relies on exploiting the reality of the game universe to your advantage.

I'll elaborate:

Most of the meat of Shadowrun is an engineering problem. You take a problem and approach it with a bucket of tools, formulating a plan to solve the problem efficiently with your bucket of tools, and trying not to get shot too much in the process.

Now, saying "reinvert the tachyon field emitters and align the phase emitters" works great on TV in Star Trek, because the technobabble doesn't have to make any sense to the viewer. The viewer doesn't have to go through the process of how that particular string of actions actually affects anything, or how it differs from "polarize the dampening coils and decouple the main plasma shunt."

But Shadowrun is a game of fine details. You can gloss over the finest points of the technology, since we can only imagine that certain things work because Science!, but knowing the comparative benefits of a skinlink versus a wireless link versus a DNI link versus a point-to-point laser link versus a satellite link is actually a big deal. There are specific processes, bonuses, gear, and potential problems that could all arise based on one fine detail like that. And a lot of the game is about coping with those sorts of differences. In short, you need to know to use the autopicker for the padlock and the maglock sequencer for the card reader, and that the ultrasonic detector can pick up your invisible mage.

[Valerian]

No, not really. One of the points is that is seems very strange that this amount of data MUST be forced over third party items/networks/matrix and not simply transmitted via cable, skinlink or DNI.

I forgot to write something:
With my "network bonus" you should slave your chemsuit or wired reflexes to your commlink for the bonus but you can do that with skinlink, wire or wireless connection.
As your commlink use wireless communication to get a network with your teammates, a hacker can still hack your commlink and then switch off your slaved devices.

Indeed, I agree with you for a rule based on a generalisation of tactnet.