Melee & Martial arts, A slightly less dead horse to flog Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[Mach_Ten]

as per title, can someone give a brief description of core melee as compared to present situation.

and if there are optional maneuvres available without waiting for WAR!

and that might add some flavour to Non-shootists for upcoming missions characters

thanks

[Umidori]

I too would like to hear about the new melee system from someone who has access to the book. Ideally I very much want it to have been revamped, but I'm not prepared to get my hopes up.

~Umi

[Sendaz]

I heard that the Kung Fu style gets a +2 wireless bonus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Joking aside, are there any major changes to expect?

Will some styles grant better accuracy with certain types of attacks?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I heard that the Kung Fu style gets a +2 wireless bonus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

As long as my Muy Thai gets +4 Wireless bonus, we are good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[X-Kalibur]

As long as my Muy Thai gets +4 Wireless bonus, we are good. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

You guys are awful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

[Sendaz]

You guys are awful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/grinbig.gif)

only if we go offline. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/nyahnyah.gif)

But on a more serious note, can imagine adding some elemental effects could be interesting addition to the melee.

Escrima is a nasty enough skill, get a pair of custom built shock batons to hold like the classic rattan clubs and it would be a good way to disable someone.

[MADness]

I just got a fun idea. What if your opponent's WiFi enabled cyber eyes auto searched videos to match the awesome looking martial art style that they are seeing for the first time?

[GiraffeShaman]

I just got a fun idea. What if your opponent's WiFi enabled cyber eyes auto searched videos to match the awesome looking martial art style that they are seeing for the first time?

And it would also provide bad voiceover options.

[Udoshi]

I heard that the Kung Fu style gets a +2 wireless bonus. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Nah, the new kung fu rules are actually really retro and a stark contrast to the new matrix rules. It actually rewards hardwired connections to nearby objects and even other characters with a +2 wuxia bonus.

[Stahlseele]

Taskmaster PhotographicReflexes should, technically, be possible. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taskmaster
This is one of the cases where being online all the time is worth it.
You see somebody doing something. You have an expert program running to determine what he is doing.
Then that expert program goes online and downloads the needed skillsoft directly into your skillwires or move by wire system.
You can now do whatever the person you were watching was doing when you were watching the person you were watchting.

[Shinobi Killfist]

Personally I hope they ditch martial arts. I'd prefer a more general concept of maneuvers core to the various close combat skills that don't need to be purchased. Things like throws, locks, aggressive and defensive fighting etc should just be part of the skill like burst fire, full auto, cover fire etc are part of the automatics skill. Make the specialties something simple like striking, subdual, defense.

[Sunshine]

Personally I hope they ditch martial arts. I'd prefer a more general concept of maneuvers core to the various close combat skills that don't need to be purchased. Things like throws, locks, aggressive and defensive fighting etc should just be part of the skill like burst fire, full auto, cover fire etc are part of the automatics skill. Make the specialties something simple like striking, subdual, defense.

I am totally with you on this one. A melee system should be a concise collection of very basic maneuvers as an option. In my gaming groups are, myself included, a lot of self defence/ martial arts geeks and the martial arts mechanic (especially counting against qualities in chargen) felt somewhat off sometimes. The only thing that I find it reflected well, was the "cost" of beeing a specialist melee fighter in comparison to beeing a good gunfighter.

love,
Sunshine

[Medicineman]

Then that expert program goes online and downloads the needed skillsoft directly into your skillwires or move by wire system.

for 10.000 ¥ per Level ?

with a very expensive Dance
Medicineman

[Stahlseele]

for 10.000 ¥ per Level ?

with a very expensive Dance
Medicineman

or 10% if you go for warez or something like that.
but yes, the monetary problem is one associated with cyber generally.

[Sendaz]

or 10% if you go for warez or something like that.
but yes, the monetary problem is one associated with cyber generally.

I would suggest being sure to apply to the rule of no edge allowed for activesofts and skillwires since it will not be your own reflexes so much as a preset response snagged from the matrix.

Plus you may want to make it reactive only, ie you have to be responding to someone's style otherwise this will be a abused as a shortcut to cheap downloaded variable MA that mysteriously does everything.

[Stahlseele]

i just realized:
why would one ever need to learn the MA qualities, if there are skillsofts? o.O

If it were just reactive, i'd make it an adept skill.
If you really do go with the ware / skillsoft approach, then no, it can't just be reactive.

A no for both on using edge when using them, aside from skillsoft with the correct modifications, is a given in terms of fairness i think . .

[Shinobi Killfist]

I have to admit, I like the idea of a blank skill soft that can be changed as a X action as part of the wireless bonus. That is much cooler than +1 rating. But that would have made cyber useful and we can't have that.

[Stahlseele]

At least not as long as it ain't vulnerable, no, of course not . . we'd be encroaching on the magic niche then . .

[Sendaz]

i just realized:
why would one ever need to learn the MA qualities, if there are skillsofts? o.O

Because wired skills override your natural responses and you can not learn from it or increase their level. All you could do is buy a better version, which may be limited in availability.

Used to be you had to have a bit of adaption time when you downloaded the skills as you had to get used to it, now though it seems its pretty much plug and play in that regard so yeah a spider could potentially download some kick ass kung fu into that janitor you just ran into and have him go into a mop smacking frenzy on your butt.

[Stahlseele]

If the janitor is outfitted with skillwires or equivalent ware, sure.
And if he is there when you are there.

[Shinobi Killfist]

At the very least they should have come out with skill softs that included maneuvers and specialties. Things like Muai Thai 5, this time with more kicking power. Unarmed combat 5(7 Muai Thai) includes +2 DV in damage from martial art maneuvers.

[Neko Asakami]

Why has no one linked this yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmEPXXJ4sKw

[Sendaz]

Always a good one.

Course they never mention that even if you do download the skills, if the body is not already in shape you could do some damage to yourself following what the program thinks you should be doing.

[cndblank]

Always a good one.

Course they never mention that even if you do download the skills, if the body is not already in shape you could do some damage to yourself following what the program thinks you should be doing.

Good point that gets missed.
You have to familiarize your body with a truly active skillsoft.
Course with the adrenaline flowing you will likely not pay for it until after the excitement.
But boy will you be stiff.

On the other side they totally ignore muscle memory when it comes to learning a skill after using a activesoft.
The hardest thing about learning an active skill like say dancing is getting your form right and your body in condition.
Making sure your body's muscle are limber and strong enough to handle any odd motions needed by the skill.
Your body will be all over and if you are not careful you can pick up some bad habits or even injury yourself especially as your body gets tired.

With an activesoft, skillwires, proper conditioning you can run through say a Waltz, perform an gymnastic roll, or execute the perfect sidekick a hundred times with perfect form.
You can condition your body to be able to do the skill perfectly even when tired and your body will remember the correct position which is a HUGE help.

So using a good set of skillwires to get your body in to condition for the skill should actually help you learn the skill much faster once you take the skillchip out.
You don't have to do the strengthening and stretching exercises needed to master a skill. Something that literally can not be rushed.

[Sunshine]

On the other side they totally ignore muscle memory when it comes to learning a skill after using a activesoft.

What you describe here may actually be a good example for the "limits" is 5th Edition. When your Body is not in good shape slotting that Muay Thai Chip is not going to do you much good.

As a GM I would allow a running or weigthlifting skillsoft to be used towards training to increase body or strength for example, but not for improving said skill.
Acquiring a Skill has imo three parts. Part one beeing the actions to be taken to execute the skill, Part two beeing the expierience to anticipate the effect of the action taken and Part three reflecting on the skill in relation too oneself (learning from mistakes).

Part One can be easyly done by Skillsoft. Slot a chip and draw like Picasso, unload it and go back to stick figures and smileys. Imo you never made the mistakes neccessary to get to draw like a master artist and with the skillsoft acting as a shortcut, you can't learn from your mistakes as you never were aware of the reason why you executed an action the way you did.
What I would argue is that most Activsofts might have a Virtual Instructor attached at about half rating if you loaded it in "training mode".

Back On Topic:
Does anybody know anything about Melee Combat in SR5 other than what could be gleaned from the Combat Preview?


love,
Sunshine

[Udoshi]

Why has no one linked this yet?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmEPXXJ4sKw

Knock Knock!

[Umidori]

...kick ass kung fu ... janitor...

Don't mind if I do! Action starts around 0:30.

~Umi

[Stahlseele]

Don't mind if I do! Action starts around 0:30.

~Umi

Do you one older

[Sunshine]

not older but even cheesier

the ULTIMATE Martial Art, hehe

[Sendaz]

not older but even cheesier

the ULTIMATE Martial Art, hehe

Hmmm... may have to argue in matters of cheese/camp with The Last Dragon

Definitely a combat adept with MA skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Umidori]

But none of those are kung fu janitors!

Okay, Hong Kong Phooey is (aside from "quaintly" racist) technically a janitor who practices kung fu, but he doesn't fight in his janitor's outfit with his mop or broom!

Also, The Last Dragon is so terrigood. WHO'S DA MASTAH?!?

~Umi

[Sunshine]

Hmmm... may have to argue in matters of cheese/camp with The Last Dragon

Definitely a combat adept with MA skills. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

And just a wee bit less funny than that! There's nothing like starting young...

love,
Sunshine

[Sendaz]

And just a wee bit less funny than that! There's nothing like starting young...

love,
Sunshine

Nope, not at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But I shall call your Bushido babies and raise you a Kung Fu Cat and Stick Bear

[Sunshine]

Nope, not at all. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

But I shall call your Bushido babies and raise you a Kung Fu Cat and Stick Bear

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

It is so on right now! Babies rock!

[Sendaz]

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/rotfl.gif)

It is so on right now! Babies rock!

OMG!! That was so awesome, how have we never seen this ad before??

I must concede defeat.


Still,Kung Fu Cats Kick Butt!!

[Sunshine]

OMG!! That was so awesome, how have we never seen this ad before??

I must concede defeat.


Still,Kung Fu Cats Kick Butt!!

(IMG:style_emoticons/default/notworthy.gif) There are some cats that kick butt though! Real Fu starts at arround 2:00 minutes.

love,
Sunshine

[Udoshi]

Man, you kids and your fancy cgi tricks and post production editing.

Sometimes you've just got to know how to handle your banstick the old fashioned way

[Sunshine]

Man, you kids and your fancy cgi tricks and post production editing.

Sometimes you've just got to know how to handle your banstick the old fashioned way

Very Nice, especially the interior design elemental effect, hehe

[Sendaz]

Man, you kids and your fancy cgi tricks and post production editing.

Sometimes you've just got to know how to handle your banstick the old fashioned way

So he not only defeats the temple master, he also helps set up the room for the next day's teaching session?

Classy (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cool.gif)

[Umidori]

That was a fabulous clip, but it reminds me of one of my bigget beefs with the SR combat skills system.

So that staff fighting was pretty epic, and would be great inspiration for a mystic adept who uses the Blunt skill, right?

But what if you stick a blade on the end of the staff? Suddenly it's a spear, and you have to use the Blades skill instead of the Blunt skill, despite the weapon handling almost exactly the same as before.

I think SR5 should pull a Skyrim, getting rid of Blade and Blunt and introducing One-Handed and Two-Handed. Handling a sword isn't all that different than handling a club, swinging a sledgehammer around is largely identical to swinging a long axe, et cetera.

~Umi

[Stahlseele]

The main Difference between a Sword and a Club is only which side you hit your Target with.

[Cochise]

The main Difference between a Sword and a Club is only which side you hit your Target with.

I'm certainly not inclined to start an old (and usually fruitless) argument ... so I'll just say: Depends on the type of sword you're using.

[Mach_Ten]

WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO TO MY THREAD ??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

I need to call the national rail police to sort out this damn mess! ...

so, in answer to the question, no-one with the book can give us a heads up ... oh well .. I impatiently wait

[bannockburn]

From the Shadowrun4.com forums:

No, styles don't appear in the SR5 core rulebook, just the specialization for Unarmed skill. I imagine the actual styles might appear in the combat/weapon supplement, just as they did in SR4.

[Sunshine]

That was a fabulous clip, but it reminds me of one of my bigget beefs with the SR combat skills system.

So that staff fighting was pretty epic, and would be great inspiration for a mystic adept who uses the Blunt skill, right?

But what if you stick a blade on the end of the staff? Suddenly it's a spear, and you have to use the Blades skill instead of the Blunt skill, despite the weapon handling almost exactly the same as before.

I think SR5 should pull a Skyrim, getting rid of Blade and Blunt and introducing One-Handed and Two-Handed. Handling a sword isn't all that different than handling a club, swinging a sledgehammer around is largely identical to swinging a long axe, et cetera.

~Umi

You named it. I have the same trouble with a character with a pistol skill of 6 not having a clue where the bad end from a shotgun or machine pistol may be. But with melee its feels even worse. I have some martial arts and self defence training and some principles do not change that much when going from empty handed to a stick to a blade. On the other hand depending on the kind of stick or blade or unarmed combat style there can be worlds between them, especially with the more exotic forms. I went from crazy to mad with all the houserules we tried to implement this or that. WHenever that scar opens I have my mantra: "It is an abstract system, that tries to resolve in an abstract way the complexities of modern combat in all its aspects!" Repeat...

Damn my mantra is kaputt, got to go hit my punching bag now... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Sunshine]

WHAT THE HELL DID YOU DO TO MY THREAD ??? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

Killing time while waiting impaitently... (IMG:style_emoticons/default/spin.gif)

[Umidori]

I have some martial arts and self defence training and some principles do not change that much when going from empty handed to a stick to a blade. On the other hand depending on the kind of stick or blade or unarmed combat style there can be worlds between them, especially with the more exotic forms. I went from crazy to mad with all the houserules we tried to implement this or that.

I dunno, I think we could come up with a better fit for things.

Since houseruling this does end up very often not working elegantly, maybe... maybe instead of trying to shoehorn in the fixes on the Weapon Skill side of things, we should get more creative with the Martial Arts themselves?

Okay, so Johnny Ganger uses a knife. He's not really trained, but he's been in enough fights and been coached enough by his fellow gangers that he can make use of the tool for its intended purpose - cutting drekheads who need cut. Let's say his Blades skill is therefor a 2.

Now, my idea is that the basic Weapon Skill is just that - the basic forms of utilizing that general type of weapon; the basic ability to make effective use of the weapon. So Johnny's 2 in Blades means he is somewhat competant with not only knives, but also swords, axes and even somewhat more unusual bladed weapons like Forearm Snap Blades. They're all used roughly the same way, and we're allowing for abstraction, so his general skills are sufficient for most common bladed implements, and anything outside that category would end up a different Weapon Skill, possibly even an Exotic Melee skill. So Johnny can pick up an ice pick and still make holes in people, but if he wants to make proper use of a monofilament chainsaw or something, he'll need some training.

let's put Johnny to one side, for now, and instead look at Monk Wu, who is trained in the Shaolin Arts. His weapon of choice is a staff, but he's also pretty good with short sticks and other Blunt weapons, so let's say he has a Blunt Skill of 3. He's also equally good with a spear, though, because the forms for his staff training work just as well for spears. As the rules currently stand, Monk Wu has to buy up Blades 3 to be able to properly use the spear that is essentially no different than his staff in terms of the forms of Shaolin. And if it turns out that Monk Wu he has no real training with any other bladed weapons - he only knows how to use the spear, and that as an extension of his staff training - things become even more absurd.

So how to fix this odd disparity, such that Monk Wu can use his spear without having to pay a significant price in karma to also be trained in swords and axes and cyberspurs and other weapons outside his martial art's discipline? Simple! Change the bonuses from Martial Arts!

Martial Arts bonuses are currently kind of sad. Sure, you can get extra dice to certain actions with most styles, and a few styles allow for more impressive and powerful bonuses (especially the boosts to Unarmed damage), but overall the Melee bonuses are lackluster. I say we scrap them and start over, specifically with the goal of creating new, interesting replacements.

For example, one possible bonus could be to allow practitioner's of a specific martial art to use certain of their Weapon Skills interchangeably with certain weapons. So in the case of Monk Wu, since he has studied the proper Shaolin forms for staff usage, and those forms are compatible with spear usage, he could substitute his Blunt skill for his Blades skill when using a spear. Similarly, someone who has studied Arnis de Mano, which specializes in using clubs and knives, might allow practitioner's to choose between Blades or Blunt when using such weapons, allowing them to apply the same forms to two compatible weapons.

Let's go back to Johnny Ganger for a second, with his knives. Let's say his gang ends up working with a local Triad organization, and in the course of the two groups interacting, Johnny meets a Triad Enforcer who picked up Eskrima in the Phillipines. Johnny is impressed by this man's skills and pays his new contact to instruct him in the art. Johnny was already pretty good with Blades in general, but after about a month of training, he's getting the hang of things and learning how to make use of the martial art's specific forms, still favoring his knives. A week later, he gets jumped in an alleyway by some chipheads in need of a fix, but for whatever reason he doesn't have his blades on him. He grabs the nearest thing to hand - a couple of wooden dowels sticking out of a trash bag - and defends himself.

Dangit, these are Blunt weapons! Johnny doesn't have Blunt skills! ...but he does have Eskrima training, which allows him to employ the forms he uses for his Knives with these compatible one-handed clubs, meaning he can substitute his Blades skill while fighting with such weapons! Sure, he may not know the first thing about swinging around a sledgehammer or fighting with a staff - hence why his Blunt skill is 0 - but these sticks are close enough to his familiar knives that they still work just as well with his training (except for dealing Stun damage instead of Physical because they aren't bladed, or whatever).

Combine this with the One-Handed/Two-Handed system instead of Blades/Blunt and I think it has a good chance of working rather nicely.

~Umi