So what happened in the end?, CGL, state of Dumpshock, etc. Options Track this topic Email this topic Print this topic Download this topic Subscribe to this forum Display Modes Switch to: Outline Switch to: Standard Linear+

[knasser]

I haven't been here for at least two years. More I think.

When I left, the place was a giant conflagration with people being banned, damage control from CGL representatives after Loren Coleman had been found embezzling funds and freelancers were not getting paid and withholding copyright... I walked in disgust when CGL retained the Shadowrun licence.

Now I'm being pestered to run Shadowrun again by some friends so I decided to look in and see what the place looks like these days. It's quiet here. Never seen it so quiet - especially given there was a new edition recently. Place feels dead. I know CGL were heavily promoting their own company forums for Shadowrun over Dumpshock. Did that place eventually take over? What happened with the licence? Is LLC still running things over there and how many of the original writers of SR4 are now working on SR5 or did it become a major staff overhaul as it was looking like for a while?

What, in short, is the state of things these days? Any of the old timers still functioning?

[Stahlseele]

It being quiet here may have something to do with it being almost christmas.
But yes, it has slowed down a bit compared to when you have been here last.


No, the official Board did not take over from dumpshock as far as i cann tell.
The License is sadly still with CGL.
Yeah, LLC still is in it over there.
And i think about half or so of the originals stopped working for CGL or at least on shadowrun.

Yeah, several of the old timers are still here and some even still there working on SR5.
Bull for example, if he's old timer enough for you.

[knasser]

It being quiet here may have something to do with it being almost christmas.
But yes, it has slowed down a bit compared to when you have been here last.


No, the official Board did not take over from dumpshock as far as i cann tell.
The License is sadly still with CGL.
Yeah, LLC still is in it over there.
And i think about half or so of the originals stopped working for CGL or at least on shadowrun.

Yeah, several of the old timers are still here and some even still there working on SR5.
Bull for example, if he's old timer enough for you.

Huh. I would have thought Christmas might make it busier. People off work, no longer at Uni., that sort of thing. But I've been through the recent threads. I see very few of the regular old names (yourself, obviously). That's a real shame about CGL. When I left, they were frantically throwing out PDFs of any material old or new, that they had to hand. War was the last thing they brought out when I left. I was here just long enough to read some of the initial horrified reactions. The quality control on it was awful.

Yes, I remember Bull. He was starting to fill some of the void left by those departing from CGL, I think. Which concerned me at the time because I remember Bull always bemoaning how SR4 wasn't cyberpunk enough. As if that entire genre shouldn't be buried and left to rot being a product of anti-technology fear entirely at odds with how current generations view technology (i.e. a cool thing to be embraced). He was always complaining how SR4 had ditched the 'dehumanisation of technology' or something.

Any others still about? Raise your hand! (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

[Elfenlied]

Yes, I remember Bull. He was starting to fill some of the void left by those departing from CGL, I think. Which concerned me at the time because I remember Bull always bemoaning how SR4 wasn't cyberpunk enough. As if that entire genre shouldn't be buried and left to rot being a product of anti-technology fear entirely at odds with how current generations view technology (i.e. a cool thing to be embraced). He was always complaining how SR4 had ditched the 'dehumanisation of technology' or something.

He did get decking reintroduced with SR5 and handwaved away nanotech and most technological progress made in SR4. For better or for worse, I guess.

[knasser]

He did get decking reintroduced with SR5 and handwaved away nanotech and most technological progress made in SR4. For better or for worse, I guess.

Huh. That was always his wish. When you say "decking reintroduced" do you just mean a return to the terminology of using "Decking" in place of "Hacking" or is it, as I fear you mean, a return to people walking around with great big slabs of "cyberdeck"? Please tell me at least that there is still wireless technology and commlinks in the game? An Eighties view of the future is just going to look stupid next to what we already have today.

[Glyph]

Commlinks are still there, but you need expensive cyberdecks to do serious hacking - deckers are their own "character class" again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

Wireless is still there, but unfortunately, they implemented it very poorly. Rather than playing up communications networks and tactical comms, where wireless hacking would make sense, they came up with a lot of senseless wireless "bonuses" to coerce people into leaving themselves exposed to hacking attacks. If you have wireless turned off, then apparently your wired reflexes and reaction enhancers cannot work together. If you have it enabled, then hackers can "brick" your cyberware, not only deactivating but also permanently damaging it.

[Elfenlied]

Huh. That was always his wish. When you say "decking reintroduced" do you just mean a return to the terminology of using "Decking" in place of "Hacking" or is it, as I fear you mean, a return to people walking around with great big slabs of "cyberdeck"? Please tell me at least that there is still wireless technology and commlinks in the game? An Eighties view of the future is just going to look stupid next to what we already have today.

Decking as in dorks running around with expensive tablets. Wireless still exists, and so do Commlinks, but the latter is just a glorified smartphone that cannot hack. They nerfed a lot of gear, with the option of having the gear perform the way it was pre-nerf by turning it online, such as your Wired Reflexes only stacking with Reaction Enhancers if they are both online. Which, in turn, makes them vulnerable to getting bricked.

SR5 is the grognard appeasement edition, for lack of a better term.

[knasser]

Commlinks are still there, but you need expensive cyberdecks to do serious hacking - deckers are their own "character class" again. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sarcastic.gif)

That's a shame. I liked how integrated hacking had become with all team members. Made Hacking less of a solo-thing and it made it more normal. So I'm guessing that even if you have a commlink and are linked to a more powerful computer wirelessly somewhere, you still aren't a proper hacker unless you have the giant slab of plastic swinging at your hip? Sooooo ostentatious. I also liked how easy it made it to be a hacker with a bit of samurai or rigger rolled in. Question - can you still go full VR with just a commlink? Or is this now a feature of a "deck"?

Do they not realise that technological progress is pretty much synonymous in the modern mind with small and discrete? If you see person A with a small device and you see person B with a large device, the modern instinct is to view the latter has technologically backwards, not more powerful. Honestly, this is exactly the sort of thing I feared. Is it rationalized in game how a few years ago everyone had small commlinks and now some people have "decks"? Or is it just a Retcon?

Wireless is still there, but unfortunately, they implemented it very poorly. Rather than playing up communications networks and tactical comms, where wireless hacking would make sense, they came up with a lot of senseless wireless "bonuses" to coerce people into leaving themselves exposed to hacking attacks. If you have wireless turned off, then apparently your wired reflexes and reaction enhancers cannot work together. If you have it enabled, then hackers can "brick" your cyberware, not only deactivating but also permanently damaging it.

That sounds odd. There were some fair reasons to have your cyberware slaved to your commlink in SR4A, but often that would be disabled. Otherwise a hacker might be able to interfere with it. So you can actually do physical damage to cyberware? I take it they were just trying to make Hacking another sort of combat technique, then? How do they rationalize having to choose between your reaction enhancers and wired reflexes working if you turn wireless off? (Assuming I've read that right).

Good to see you all again, btw. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

K.

[knasser]

Decking as in dorks running around with expensive tablets. Wireless still exists, and so do Commlinks, but the latter is just a glorified smartphone that cannot hack. They nerfed a lot of gear, with the option of having the gear perform the way it was pre-nerf by turning it online, such as your Wired Reflexes only stacking with Reaction Enhancers if they are both online. Which, in turn, makes them vulnerable to getting bricked.

SR5 is the grognard appeasement edition, for lack of a better term.

Huh. I see. (We posted at the same time).

Grognard Appeasement Edition.

Speaking as someone who started playing with 1st Ed. I'm not sure how I feel about that. There's a lot in old SR that is just silly today. I'm going to hazard a guess that the tone is a bit more "punk" again.

[Nath]

Is it rationalized in game how a few years ago everyone had small commlinks and now some people have "decks"? Or is it just a Retcon?

The Corporate Court ordered all the Matrix to switch to new protocols to overhaul security on January 1st, 2065. 4th edition hacking software no longer worked from that point, but the people involved in the protocols design (including Fastjack) also designed ways to circumvent them, which required dedicated hardware that is already produced and branded by corporations and called "cyberdecks" (technomancers also adjusted, obviously).

[Stahlseele]

Huh. I see. (We posted at the same time).

Grognard Appeasement Edition.

Speaking as someone who started playing with 1st Ed. I'm not sure how I feel about that. There's a lot in old SR that is just silly today. I'm going to hazard a guess that the tone is a bit more "punk" again.

and then there is this:
https://twitter.com/BullOrkDecker/status/39...2904961/photo/1

[knasser]

The Corporate Court ordered all the Matrix to switch to new protocols to overhaul security on January 1st, 2065. 4th edition hacking software no longer worked from that point, but the people involved in the protocols design (including Fastjack) also designed ways to circumvent them, which required dedicated hardware that is already produced and branded by corporations and called "cyberdecks" (technomancers also adjusted, obviously).

WTF? Brain fused. Too many flaws trying to express themselves at once.

[knasser]

and then there is this:
https://twitter.com/BullOrkDecker/status/39...2904961/photo/1

Shouldn't the Mohawk be pink?

[Stahlseele]

Shouldn't the Mohawk be pink?

EDIT: Sorry - double post.

yep, that's still the same here too ^^

[Ryu]

I haven't been here for at least two years. More I think.

When I left, the place was a giant conflagration with people being banned, damage control from CGL representatives after Loren Coleman had been found embezzling funds and freelancers were not getting paid and withholding copyright... I walked in disgust when CGL retained the Shadowrun licence.

Now I'm being pestered to run Shadowrun again by some friends so I decided to look in and see what the place looks like these days. It's quiet here. Never seen it so quiet - especially given there was a new edition recently. Place feels dead. I know CGL were heavily promoting their own company forums for Shadowrun over Dumpshock. Did that place eventually take over? What happened with the licence? Is LLC still running things over there and how many of the original writers of SR4 are now working on SR5 or did it become a major staff overhaul as it was looking like for a while?

What, in short, is the state of things these days? Any of the old timers still functioning?

It might be me, but DS seems to be A LOT slower the last weeks (I´m looking much less frequently since most rules discussions became irrelevant to me.) I do believe the signal-to-noise ratio has become better. I´d suggest to pick up your old stack of books, visit again (occasionally), and get back to playing.

[Godwyn]

The official forums have taken a lot away from dumpshock. They get a good bit more traffic and posts. Even if several of the regulars there post here as well. New player threads appear far more frequently over there.

[knasser]

The official forums have taken a lot away from dumpshock. They get a good bit more traffic and posts. Even if several of the regulars there post here as well. New player threads appear far more frequently over there.

That's what I figured. A real shame for Dumpshock. There's an epic wealth of material here.

Anyway, I guess my question has been answered now. CGL got away with it, a lot of the people who left never came back. Those who stayed took Shadowrun back to the old days of cyberpunk-archetype-game that they always disliked SR4 for taking away from them. I've been reading a few threads over the last few hours. Seems like 5th is not something that appeals to me. Stylistically and thematically, it's wallowing in the Eighties, a game for old men who don't realize or don't care how dated everything looks.

I even found a post from Cain still raving about his "Mr. Lucky build" and how you can break the Matrix even though he's been proved wrong at least three times to my knowledge on both subjects. He just is temporarily banned or subsides when his thread is locked and now three years later, I'm still finding posts from him in threads about 5th posting the same bitter lies. Quite possibly one of the saddest things I've ever seen.

Anyway, I guess I'm done here. This place is dead and I'm not giving a penny to Catalyst after what they did. I'll tell the players they'll have to accept Dark Heresy or something.

Thanks,

K.

[Stahlseele]

aw, shame to see you go again so soon <.<

[knasser]

aw, shame to see you go again so soon <.<

Well I wish you happy gaming. But as you can tell from the tone of my post, I just find how things turned out depressing and it's clearly going in the wrong direction for my tastes and so all I could really bring to the forum these days would be bitterness and sorrow. A sad reversal from the days of yore. I choose to preserve my legacy instead. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Peace and coolness,

K.

[garner_adam]

For what worth Dark Heresy is actually very fun. My group just went from that to 5th cause some one missed the shenanigans of pink mohawk.

[knasser]

For what worth Dark Heresy is actually very fun. My group just went from that to 5th cause some one missed the shenanigans of pink mohawk.

I ran possibly the most grimdark game any of my players had ever played using DH 1st. I actually managed to grim a couple of them out which was amazing as normally they're quite sociopathic when it comes to RPGs.

Ironically enough, for all my complaining about designing games for "old men", I'm becoming something of a curmudgeon myself. Only the other way around - I also have the same issue with the new edition of DH (it's currently in Beta). The original Beta was innovative and new and played really well in my tests. But there were howls of protests from some of the existing players because it was different and not backwards compatible. They loudly demanded something like Only War. So now the DH2 version that is coming out is essentially Only War: Inquisitor Edition. Everywhere I look, it all seems to be about placating the Old Guard. Which is pretty ironic as I stared Shadowrun with 1st edition and my experience with Warhammer RPGs goes all the way back to the original WHFRP where my elf apprentice died in his first combat at the hands of a goblin with a shortbow.

Every year as I get older, I get grumpier and grumpier about the way things aren't changing how they used to.

SR5 -> SR2/3 being a case in point.

[Stahlseele]

we are all bitter here, but suit yourself.
i had just hoped one of the great old ones would come back.
frank was banned, Ancient History left as well. aside from his farcast thread in other gaming at least . .

[Koekepan]

To be entirely, unrelentingly fair:

Disclaimer: this is not a defence of 5th Edition. I do not own 5th Edition. What I have seen about it largely repels me so far. I hope that they will fix it but I'm not holding my breath.

Let us stipulate for the sake of argument that replacing the human sensorium is somewhere around the data density of IMAX (depending on some fiddly details, around 48 megapixels with around 64 bits of data each, which is around 400 MB per frame) once you include tactile and olfactory information, and that for all this to run so beautifully fast that there is a speed-of-thought advantage, you're running at around the maximum cycle rate of neurons (about 1000 Hz), you need, for full VR, to deliver around 4Tbps of data to the brain.

Bear in mind these numbers are largely thumb sucks, but are actually reality-biased in terms of what the human input system could handle (although I strongly suspect that the tactile sensorium would challenge the visual for data density), and are based on current knowledge of neural performance.

So. 4 terabits of data per second. Even assuming, entirely gratuitously, that you can somehow squeeze that down, with complex encodings, canonical representations and merciless data compression to 4 gigabits of data per second (this is a ludicrous level of compression, for those unfamiliar with compression of data streams; you'd be insanely lucky to get it to 400Gbps), that is still the kind of data throughput which is problematic in the sheer terms of data capacity of wireless data channels. There's just no way you will stuff that into a single wireless channel with plausible energy/clutter penetration/interference/carcinogenic qualities. This means that anyone trying wireless VR (where VR means simsense, as opposed to a simple headset view) will chew up every available wireless channel in reach. Bear in mind that to supply 4Tbps, you need 4000 independent Gbps channels - good luck doing so in plausible available electromagnetic contexts. Even 4Gbps is hard to deliver wirelessly, assuming multiple users, interference from various other electromagnetic sources and other real-world concerns. 4Gbps with constant bitrate (that a smooth experience requires) is massively unlikely.

I am all there for Moore's Law, and the genius of engineers exploiting quantum effects to increase the density of chips and drives and all the rest of it, but when you're coming up hard against the stark physical, information theoretical limitations of the world, well, it's like the fact that chip designers are actually running up against the speed of an electron in copper, and the speed of a photon in optic fibre.

I'm not saying VR is impossible, or that simsense is impossible, nor am I particularly arguing that VR wouldn't be more potent in some meaningful fashion than a keyboard - although there are serious unanswered questions there. All I'm saying is that wireless VR stretches the limits of credibility to and beyond breaking point, and that it was a mistake in any system where computers do not purportedly work on magic. On that front, 4th Ed made a serious mistake, and should have restricted actual VR hacking to a physical connection, even if allowing for an AR hacking environment wirelessly.

Once you include tactile, olfactory and other data sources in parallel with everything else, the mathematics of it all gets insane. This is, not even counting anything like error correction, redundancy or similar overhead sources.

[knasser]

EDIT: @kokeban - you posted whilst I was writing. Interesting points. Sorry I can't respond now.

we are all bitter here, but suit yourself.
i had just hoped one of the great old ones would come back.
frank was banned, Ancient History left as well. aside from his farcast thread in other gaming at least . .

Alas, the stars are not right. Perhaps in stranger aeons...

I always liked Frank. Was never mutual mind you - don't think he ever forgave me for actually forcing him to concede an argument (twice). But I kind of liked the way he always backed things up and got into fights with the mods. I've met religious fanatics with more compromise in them than Frank Trollman. I liked him. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif) Ancient History - I don't blame him really. Given I don't think there was ever anyone as dedicated to the setting as he was and then to be kicked out of the dev forums for spreading rumours (which turned out to be true) that Catalyst had stopped paying Freelancers! I don't think he would ever be able to come back under the current regime after all that was said and done, and I doubt even his love for the setting could overmaster how galling it would be to ask permission to write again from the people who were the reason he left. Method always insightful, Fistandantilus always too nice to be a mod whilst you could always rely on Bull to dismiss any views other than his own with a quick argument by assertion stating what Shadowrun was actually about. Critias - always talented, always believing that somehow he could change the system from within if he just worked for CGL long enough. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) So many names, all forgotten now, like tears in the rain.

No, I thank you for the invitation, Stahlsteele. But I'm not yet ready to sit sipping bitter drinks in a dark forum reminiscing. I think it's still afternoon outside, I'm going to go and find some new names. SR5 can sail without me. I wish you a good voyage. But I'll not lift one finger to put a penny in the pockets of CGL who treated my friends so badly. Maybe some other life. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

Peace and coolness,

Khadim.

[Sengir]

So I'm guessing that even if you have a commlink and are linked to a more powerful computer wirelessly somewhere, you still aren't a proper hacker unless you have the giant slab of plastic swinging at your hip? Sooooo ostentatious. I also liked how easy it made it to be a hacker with a bit of samurai or rigger rolled in. Question - can you still go full VR with just a commlink? Or is this now a feature of a "deck"?

Decks can be quite small, it's just that you need some kind of ASICs to hack those new matrix protocols. It's back to SR3 in the way that decks and cyberterminals differ in their hardware, but the sizes did not make a return (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

How do they rationalize having to choose between your reaction enhancers and wired reflexes working if you turn wireless off?

Easier than a smuggling compartment opening faster with wireless enabled (even if you open in manually, what matters solely is that the cyber has wireless access). And then there's the wireless baton...

[Critias]

Hiya Knasser (if you come back to read this). Good to see you, but sorry to see you take off again. Shoot me a PM with an email, if you've got a kindle and would like a quick read.

And as to...

Critias - always talented, always believing that somehow he could change the system from within if he just worked for CGL long enough.

I appreciate the sentiment, but don't martyr me as some revolutionary just yet. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) FWIW, I'm not so much out to "change the system," as to "write the best stuff I can, for whoever I can write it for." Just like in my day job I'm not out to "change" academia, I'm just out to make a couple history classes as interesting and informative as I can for my students, y'know? Same thing here. Adepts, the Tir, the Ancients, some urban brawl, lots of fic...I've gotten to do some fun stuff, I think.

I'm trying to tell cool stories, I like the Shadowrun universe and the stories I can tell there, and I'm taking my shots as I see 'em.

[Nath]

This means that anyone trying wireless VR (where VR means simsense, as opposed to a simple headset view) will chew up every available wireless channel in reach. Bear in mind that to supply 4Tbps, you need 4000 independent Gbps channels - good luck doing so in plausible available electromagnetic contexts. [...]
I'm not saying VR is impossible, or that simsense is impossible, nor am I particularly arguing that VR wouldn't be more potent in some meaningful fashion than a keyboard - although there are serious unanswered questions there. All I'm saying is that wireless VR stretches the limits of credibility to and beyond breaking point, and that it was a mistake in any system where computers do not purportedly work on magic. On that front, 4th Ed made a serious mistake, and should have restricted actual VR hacking to a physical connection, even if allowing for an AR hacking environment wirelessly.

Note that in the previous editions, "VR" simply meant "Virtual Reality," which did imply "Realistic Virtuality," let alone in real time. It wasn't anything near simsense level. Icons and background were always obviously computer-generated. Only the few so-called "Ultraviolet" hosts were achieving reality-like level inside the Matrix. Otherwise, Simsense was only available on cable network at home and chips in the streets. The 4th edition did not differ a lot:

Shadowrun, 4th Edition, page 229
How “real” is full VR? Most of it looks computer-generated and –drawn. No matter how astounding—even photo-realistic—the level of detail, it is still obviously computer-created. There are some sections of the Matrix that are virtually indistinguishable from the real world—known as ultraviolet nodes—but those are rare and dangerous places.

Also, most people forget that 3rd edition Matrix book was the first to make cellphone or satlink an option for Matrix access, which put a restriction on up/download speed, thus only affecting file transfer but not the VR experience itself (including the occasional UV host). Simsense file happened to be small enough to still be downloaded easily.

[Neraph]

So many names, all forgotten now, like tears in the rain.

I'll take that as a mention of me. I'm still here, and as far as I know people still remember me.

[Koekepan]

Note that in the previous editions, "VR" simply meant "Virtual Reality," which did imply "Realistic Virtuality," let alone in real time. It wasn't anything near simsense level. Icons and background were always obviously computer-generated. Only the few so-called "Ultraviolet" hosts were achieving reality-like level inside the Matrix. Otherwise, Simsense was only available on cable network at home and chips in the streets. The 4th edition did not differ a lot:

Fair enough, but I think it's obvious to most readers that I'm talking about full immersion, regardless of appearance (and allowing for terminological confusion), which also applies to wireless rigging, as opposed to remote control. What I'm trying to point out is that anyone using wireless for hacking should not get a sim bonus (hot or cold) since the sheer level of data transfer would offer no substantial advantage over a well tuned regular interface, and that riggers trying to genuinely feel the thrum of the fuel pump should absolutely be plugged in to their vehicles.

Also, most people forget that 3rd edition Matrix book was the first to make cellphone or satlink an option for Matrix access, which put a restriction on up/download speed, thus only affecting file transfer but not the VR experience itself (including the occasional UV host). Simsense file happened to be small enough to still be downloaded easily.

This is where it breaks down into nonsense again, if the download is wireless. Bear in mind that we are talking a level of neural override and sensory detail which will let Bog the Trog spend half an hour experiencing what it is like to be Getlaidriel the elven porn starlet while she's being gangbanged by a bunch of dwarves, down to the specifics of Thorin Oakenrod grabbing her delicately pointed elven ears and the smell of his groin, while Gimlet son of Growin's corona rubs against her cervix. Half an hour at our reduced assumption of 4Tbps is 7,2 petabits, or roughly one petabyte allowing for a little bit in protocol and error correction overheads. Even assuming you have magical wireless and nobody near you is exploiting the same base stations much, to the point that you get 1Tbps (hah!) while wandering through a Seattle Arcology, you're looking at a couple of hours. Bear in mind this is where you'd be surrounded by wireless access points on a level beyond pretty much anything except a testbed lab, and bathed in radiation like an experimental test subject, and somehow mysteriously nobody else is around to compete for the same bandwidth, and you are doing nothing else with the available bandwidth either. Unless your definition of `small enough' after laughably huge levels of compression, ludicrous assumptions about electromagnetic radiation, and a treatment of information theory in signalling which is flat-out insane under fantasy-level ideal circumstances is most of a day to download the equivalent of a 90-minute movie, it just ain't so.

If we reduce the aggression of our assumptions in favour of that theory to, say, 100Tb per displayed second of data (much more plausible), 100Gbps under still marvellous but more plausible conditions, we're looking at 1500 hours of downloading a 90-minute movie, or roughly three months. Basically, simsense transmitted wirelessly is not really plausible.

So, to bring this back to the point at hand:

Wireless rigging? Implausible, as a full sim exercise.
Wireless hacking? Sure, just no reason to believe that hot or cold sim would offer any advantage which a set of goggles and twitch game grade controls wouldn't offer. In other words, non-sim VR should work basically as well.
Wired hacking? Now the arguments in favour of sim make a (tiny) bit more sense.

Now, before you wave the flag of Shadowrun-ain't-real-so-magical-technological-leaps-are-all-fine, let me point out that real live brokerage houses today are running into speed-of-light problems in arranging their global networks, and that is not a joke. We're also pushing hard against the kind of wireless bandwidth which can even theoretically be offered by a given wavelength. Alternatively, if you want to argue that the brain doesn't run at 1000Hz even if particular neurons do so the data throughput should be smaller, then great, but where is the huge edge which simsense is supposed to offer? Response time? No, because hacking is actually a decision-making and analytical exercise more than a twitch game. Throughput? No, because sim is more demanding than VR in networking terms. Intuitive data presentations? If they're largely visual the difference between stimulating the cortex directly versus the retina is at best counted in milliseconds (bear in mind that some predigestion of visual data occurs in and around the retina) - and the stimulus is a tiny part of the whole where the brain actually has to digest, interpret and react to the stimulus. Unless your responses are strictly rote or drilled reactions, you need to think about them. Look at kids writing examinations in anything requiring analytical thought. They aren't just scribbling as fast as their pens can move - they're pausing to think, count, examine the data. Sometimes increased writing speed might help - but just as often it would be a meaningless bonus. The typical time saved over a three hour examination would at best be maybe five minutes.

The good news is that all this offers an up-front, clearly explicable set of reasons why wired hacking is better than wireless, especially if you can get your wired connection in a vulnerable part of the target network. Should it require a huge deck? I don't care. I see no inherent reason a cyberdeck should be larger than a laptop.

The bad news is that it makes it very clear that SR4 style wireless matrix hacking introduced a whole new layer of technological bulldrek into the milieu because it apparently dawned on someone somewhere that smartphones were getting popular.

[Elfenlied]

Bear in mind that we are talking a level of neural override and sensory detail which will let Bog the Trog spend half an hour experiencing what it is like to be Getlaidriel the elven porn starlet while she's being gangbanged by a bunch of dwarves, down to the specifics of Thorin Oakenrod grabbing her delicately pointed elven ears and the smell of his groin, while Gimlet son of Growin's corona rubs against her cervix.

Too much information!

[Lindt]

There are times...

Bitter olds vets.
Remembering the days of the dead.
Wondering about the gone.
Thinking about the past.

[Bigity]

My biggest gripe about the other forums is they are using the worst forum software I have ever had the displeasure of coming across.

It's terrible.

[Koekepan]

Too much information!

Yes. Much too much for wireless.

For our hard core, superdetailed, MAXrotica™ experience, wireless won't cut it. We take you all the way into the action.

All rights reserved, Horizon Entertainment Division.

[DeathStrobe]

/snip

In your world hacking would be the hacker sending out a few million Matrix messages to random people about how a Nigerian Prince needs a few thousand nuyen to get a valuable item out of customs. Yeah...that sure sounds fun. Way cooler then decker duals.

[Snow_Fox]

it's just my opinion but the edition changes are discouraging people from posting. I know it certainly is for me. I use to post a few times a day but as 3 went to 4 , 4 to 4.1 or what ever they called it 4 whatever to 5 I feel left behind. I can do just fine with 3rd ed rules as do my group with the 4th ed decking. but each time they change the rules and things like damage and spell casting I feel more and more disconnected and less of a reason to post or even an ability to do so. The fact that they seem to want us to shell out for all new core books every 5 years gets damn expensive

so I come here for the over stories and soft stuff and ideas but see little reason to post in the 'what rule do I..." threads the way I use to. I suspect there could be a lot of the older hands like me who do that.

[Koekepan]

In your world hacking would be the hacker sending out a few million Matrix messages to random people about how a Nigerian Prince needs a few thousand nuyen to get a valuable item out of customs. Yeah...that sure sounds fun. Way cooler then decker duals.

While I take your point concerning duels, there are other ways to take it. Even if phishing or some variant thereof were an element of what a decker might do as part of preparation, that wouldn't really go on-screen, as it were. While matrix duels might not be part of the whole plan, a less metaphorical aspect of it certainly could be.

On the other hand, you could visualise it in an arbitrary VR interface any way you wanted to.

[Cain]

I even found a post from Cain still raving about his "Mr. Lucky build" and how you can break the Matrix even though he's been proved wrong at least three times to my knowledge on both subjects. He just is temporarily banned or subsides when his thread is locked and now three years later, I'm still finding posts from him in threads about 5th posting the same bitter lies. Quite possibly one of the saddest things I've ever seen.

I'm still here, you know.

[toturi]

Right now, none of the splat books are out. There is only so much you can gripe/poke/break in the main book. The new edition is in, but not all of the players are on the field.

[Elfenlied]

Right now, none of the splat books are out. There is only so much you can gripe/poke/break in the main book. The new edition is in, but not all of the players are on the field.

I really hope the matrix books offers extensive optional rules to make the matrix more 4th edition like, undoing the recent changes. Probably not going to happen with the current staff, though.

[Tanegar]

Bear in mind that we are talking a level of neural override and sensory detail which will let Bog the Trog spend half an hour experiencing what it is like to be Getlaidriel the elven porn starlet while she's being gangbanged by a bunch of dwarves, down to the specifics of Thorin Oakenrod grabbing her delicately pointed elven ears and the smell of his groin, while Gimlet son of Growin's corona rubs against her cervix.

I am totally going to base a run around Getlaidriel. That name is too good to pass up.

[Wounded Ronin]

it's just my opinion but the edition changes are discouraging people from posting. I know it certainly is for me. I use to post a few times a day but as 3 went to 4 , 4 to 4.1 or what ever they called it 4 whatever to 5 I feel left behind. I can do just fine with 3rd ed rules as do my group with the 4th ed decking. but each time they change the rules and things like damage and spell casting I feel more and more disconnected and less of a reason to post or even an ability to do so. The fact that they seem to want us to shell out for all new core books every 5 years gets damn expensive

so I come here for the over stories and soft stuff and ideas but see little reason to post in the 'what rule do I..." threads the way I use to. I suspect there could be a lot of the older hands like me who do that.

Seriously. 4th edition was such a turn off that I stopped paying attention to the rules and settings.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

Ha, this thread appeared serendipitiously for me. Having pretty much abandoned Shadowrun few months later after knasser (I think it was spy games the last book I saw by then) I had the opportunity of finding a Shadowrun 5th edition while visiting my cousin in Montreal, so, I bought the book, I actually liked some of the changes (limits of success was a great idea, as well as turning programs rankless and make them give boni to specific actions).
So, after returning home, decided to see how good ol' dumpshock was faring.
I actually liked the changes for matrix and while they may be only lightly firmed on how real hacking goes, well, real hacking is BOOORING and is nowhere near as was displayed by the old nineties movie 'Hackers' (with Angelina Jolie barely legal, since we are talking about Getlaidriel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).
My final point is, the breaking point for me buying the book was recognizing so many of the writers' names from here, otherwise, I would have put it back on the shelf.

[Backgammon]

The fact that they seem to want us to shell out for all new core books every 5 years gets damn expensive

It was EIGHT YEARS between SR4 and SR5. I had time to finish university, get a job, get promoted a few times, get married and have a child between the two. Why don't you spread out the cost of ALL the books you bought over eight years. Or better yet, divide that over the number of hours Shadowrun has entertained you. Compare that to ANYTHING else: going to the movies, the price of your cable subscription, whatever the hell else you can think of. Then see if it's still "damn expensive".

If it is, you've made mistakes in your life, and that's not Shadowrun's fault.

[fistandantilus4....]

A lot of things have changed around here over the last couple of years. I think that Snow Fox isn't far off, that 5th edition has been a part of that. Think back to 4th edition though, and there was a lot of people raising a stink (including me) when it first hit. We've got enough editions now that you can roll with whichever one you want. But I think the issues with the license and who's working it has affected the game pretty seriously. Of course, that may just be our little corner of the internet talking.

I'm pretty grateful for those that are still willing to work through the difficulties, like Our Boy Crit, and still put out good stuff despite all the people that have left to do other things. It's been neat seeing some people step up as other people have left. But there's still a lot we just don't see anymore. I still miss Fortune, mfb, and of course Knasser.

Fistandantilus always too nice to be a mod

I'm still here, just more quiet these days. I've got a lot going on personally, and 5th edt, which is the main hot topic, hasn't sold me yet.

I will say for Dumpshock as a whole, on our side anyway, things have been a lot easier to handle. I'll always like Frank Trollman, although he was a huge pain in the ass, quite frankly. But he had a lot of interesting, intelligent things to say. Of course, I miss Doc Funk, AH, and SL James too. Some were more liked than others. But for whatever reason , the number of flame fests has been way down. So that's nice. I'm busy with other things lately so I rarely get the chance to log in, but the latest mods are doing great with it. Redjack has really taken the ball and ran with it, and does a lot to keep us going, which is awesome to see. Honestly, any issues with the software you need to direct with him, cause I know jack all about it. What I do know is that what we've got works for the money. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif)

I still love DS, even if I'm not on as frequently. Personally I like it more for the fact that there is an official SR forum out there, and we're still here. We're not concerned about making CGL happy or unhappy. DS has been here through a lot of companies now, and we're not going anywhere. The mods try to keep the peace and keep it open for Freelancers, guys like Bull who skirt a couple of different lines (he's more nimble than you'd think for his size (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ), and readers and players who just want straight answers and to argue stuff out. I think it's become a more relaxed environment lately, which I appreciate. Hopefully guys and gals out there like Knasser can still find things they enjoy , without having to worry so much about the politics behind it.

[Prime Mover]

I'm a fan of shadowrun, nots it's owners. Authors, developers or varied editions. Played since my first edition arrived in the mail and can assure you it wasn't any mechanics or reality based tech that turned me into an SR junkie for life.
It inspired me as a storyteller. It's strangely insightful view of the future, fantasy elements which let my players access it from a D&D background and the ability to look into the future and still be living in past due to vitas and the first crash twisting history. The shooting helped.
New editions mean new concepts and new mistakes.
1st edition wow umm it was a first edition.
2nd edition cleaner and nearly daily games for several years endears this version to me.
3rd edition walls of text...little art, again cleaner but a painful read.
4th edition someone got chocolate in my peanut butter. Lots new concepts also lots of right moves. (And growing pains)
5th edition obviously made with the best intentions, some rollback, more new concepts. Made by people who care even if you don't share their vision.

I was here last edition, probably be here next edition. As a GM who's run dozens of systems for dozens of people I always find myself coming back to SR and it's fan base . Digging through dumpshock is nearly as fun as getting that box of 1st edition books out of storage for inspiration.

[Koekepan]

I am totally going to base a run around Getlaidriel. That name is too good to pass up.

All I ask is that you tell us how it goes. We want to know about how Gimlet squeezes into her elven ring.

Or at least about the escapades of the group she hired to extract her from her current contract so that she could go independent.

[Koekepan]

I actually liked the changes for matrix and while they may be only lightly firmed on how real hacking goes, well, real hacking is BOOORING and is nowhere near as was displayed by the old nineties movie 'Hackers' (with Angelina Jolie barely legal, since we are talking about Getlaidriel (IMG:style_emoticons/default/wink.gif) ).

There are lots of things which are boring. Picking locks over and over and over is boring. Spending hour after hour after hour lifting weights or running is boring. Shooting the same target again and again and again is boring. Waiting in a surgery while a cyberdoc performs microneurosurgery on your knee is boring. Standing in front of a mirror learning to deliver exactly the right expression in exactly the right way is boring. Reading the latest hydraulic diagram for the fifteenth revision on the damn stupid drone model's parts is boring. And yet shadowrunners do all these things if they want that edge. This is why these things happen off-camera.

A sweating hacker hastily splicing into an optic fibre link while the clock ticks so that he can deliver the carefully tuned exploit so that he can control the secured freight elevator and let the delivery team escape with the prototype without being caught on camera, and still have time to evacuate himself with the infiltration expert through the company's laundry chutes is not boring.

It is up to the game master to work with the parts which are engaging.

[Wounded Ronin]

All I ask is that you tell us how it goes. We want to know about how Gimlet squeezes into her elven ring.

Or at least about the escapades of the group she hired to extract her from her current contract so that she could go independent.

Heh, all we need is seedy SR pr0n appearing on Google image search.

[X-Kalibur]

I ran possibly the most grimdark game any of my players had ever played using DH 1st. I actually managed to grim a couple of them out which was amazing as normally they're quite sociopathic when it comes to RPGs.

Ironically enough, for all my complaining about designing games for "old men", I'm becoming something of a curmudgeon myself. Only the other way around - I also have the same issue with the new edition of DH (it's currently in Beta). The original Beta was innovative and new and played really well in my tests. But there were howls of protests from some of the existing players because it was different and not backwards compatible. They loudly demanded something like Only War. So now the DH2 version that is coming out is essentially Only War: Inquisitor Edition. Everywhere I look, it all seems to be about placating the Old Guard. Which is pretty ironic as I stared Shadowrun with 1st edition and my experience with Warhammer RPGs goes all the way back to the original WHFRP where my elf apprentice died in his first combat at the hands of a goblin with a shortbow.

Every year as I get older, I get grumpier and grumpier about the way things aren't changing how they used to.

SR5 -> SR2/3 being a case in point.

Our jobs as we get older are to be more grumpy and curmudgeon-y. Good to see you stop by for a quick fling, knasser. For my own money, I found Rogue Trader and Only War to be the better of the settings and rules (in that order) for the FFG titles.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

There are lots of things which are boring. Picking locks over and over and over is boring. Spending hour after hour after hour lifting weights or running is boring. Shooting the same target again and again and again is boring. Waiting in a surgery while a cyberdoc performs microneurosurgery on your knee is boring. Standing in front of a mirror learning to deliver exactly the right expression in exactly the right way is boring. Reading the latest hydraulic diagram for the fifteenth revision on the damn stupid drone model's parts is boring. And yet shadowrunners do all these things if they want that edge. This is why these things happen off-camera.

A sweating hacker hastily splicing into an optic fibre link while the clock ticks so that he can deliver the carefully tuned exploit so that he can control the secured freight elevator and let the delivery team escape with the prototype without being caught on camera, and still have time to evacuate himself with the infiltration expert through the company's laundry chutes is not boring.

It is up to the game master to work with the parts which are engaging.

All of those stuff is either practice/training for something else or work.
Picking a lock while the rest of the team is giving you cover fire against a bunch of red samurais is not boring. Running for your life is not boring neither is lifting a barrel or something to blockade a passage from pursuers. Shooting the same practice target is boring. Shooting someone who's shooting you back OR running towards you to split you in half with a monofilamente sword is not.

Anyway, my point is, hacking in real life has not the drama you just mentioned, so that's why I don't mind if the matrix/hacking is shown somewhat impossible to how it should actually work because if it did, the game would be like this:

[ Spoiler ]

Ok, after 2 days of pinging the target you intend to see how its protocol communications work and during this time the target's spider didn't notice your pings to change said protocols, you fire your brute force software that finds a weak password and gives you entry after 5 minutes. Since you did this during the lunchbreak, the spider was not in front of the computer to see the automated emails of the site telling him that many access requisitions were made in such a short time. You gain access to the computer, copy the file you want, leave a little gift before disconecting and voilà. You got the emails of everyone who ever bought and Adobe Software...

[Sengir]

I am totally going to base a run around Getlaidriel. That name is too good to pass up.

Yep, a definite gold mine of potential there (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Koekepan]

Yes, I remember Bull. He was starting to fill some of the void left by those departing from CGL, I think. Which concerned me at the time because I remember Bull always bemoaning how SR4 wasn't cyberpunk enough. As if that entire genre shouldn't be buried and left to rot being a product of anti-technology fear entirely at odds with how current generations view technology (i.e. a cool thing to be embraced). He was always complaining how SR4 had ditched the 'dehumanisation of technology' or something.

You know, on further thought, I'm not too sure that all that hangs together very well. Current generations, as you put it, are quite capable of evincing massive techno-scepticism. Just look at the fuss around organic food, GMO, nuclear power, spyware with or without government involvement, pollution management, labour rights vis-a-vis automation, and you can see that it's far from a techno-utopian world. It isn't even clear that the answer to the problems of technology is widely regarded as being more (different) technology.

Besides that, a large part of cyberpunk was always social commentary on the intrinsic worth, or worthlessness of humanity in the high tech age, and the social ills which might result from the comparative devaluation of a substantial proportion of the public at large - a problem which is growing in the real world as technology displaces entire classes of labour as being simply uneconomical. The labour movement is fighting hard on this front, and it is a real world concern for millions and millions of people.

I'm not saying that there aren't places to find bits of optimism, but the idea that cyberpunk should dig its own grave while abdicating in favour of transhumanist spiritual imperialism boldly colonising the future isn't something I quite buy, yet.

[Glyph]

I don't think post-cyberpunk has really dropped the social commentary or skepticism regarding technology. It is simply less likely to be pure distopia, and more of an examination of all of the changes that technology brings. They tend to start out emphasizing the postive changes a certain technology has brought, but then the story, when it kicks in, is usually about some danger or hidden downside to it. The solution, though, will not be "technology is bad,", but "okay, how can we fix this problem?" I think cyberpunk introduced some changes to science fiction in general that are going to stay, even as some of the older cyberpunk stories begin to seem dated, with their Japanese-philia/phobia and disintegrating nation-states/corporate feudalism (big corporations are more powerful than they should be, but I think they prefer the current status quo, where they have a disproportionately large influence, pay disproportionately less taxes, and have laws and government largesse that benefit them).

I think Shadowrun has weathered the change better because it was never completely cyberpunk. I don't mean merely the addition of fantasy elements. I mean that they never went full-on gonzo distopia - there are still nation states, activist organizations, and places where you can have a real lawn with real grass, and drink real coffee (even if that puts you in the luxury bracket).

[Koekepan]

Even Gibson wasn't purely anti-technology, and forsaking technology wasn't a particular answer in his books - nor in Dick's. They're both rife with illustrations of unintended consequences, but any depiction of high tech low life will turn its lens on those who don't get all the blessings and perhaps get more of the downsides.

The idea that cyberpunk dystopias universally offer less hope or light than a session of Kult (for those who don't know it, it has been described as Call of Cthulhu without all the mindless optimism) isn't really supported by the major literary inspirations. Even Bladerunner mostly amounts to: "Wow, that really sucks for the replicants." It isn't a universal condemnation of every aspect of its milieu.

[Koekepan]

All of those stuff is either practice/training for something else or work.
Picking a lock while the rest of the team is giving you cover fire against a bunch of red samurais is not boring. Running for your life is not boring neither is lifting a barrel or something to blockade a passage from pursuers. Shooting the same practice target is boring. Shooting someone who's shooting you back OR running towards you to split you in half with a monofilamente sword is not.

Anyway, my point is, hacking in real life has not the drama you just mentioned, so that's why I don't mind if the matrix/hacking is shown somewhat impossible to how it should actually work because if it did, the game would be like this:

[ Spoiler ]

Ok, after 2 days of pinging the target you intend to see how its protocol communications work and during this time the target's spider didn't notice your pings to change said protocols, you fire your brute force software that finds a weak password and gives you entry after 5 minutes. Since you did this during the lunchbreak, the spider was not in front of the computer to see the automated emails of the site telling him that many access requisitions were made in such a short time. You gain access to the computer, copy the file you want, leave a little gift before disconecting and voilà. You got the emails of everyone who ever bought and Adobe Software...

Fighting is boring: the street samurai burst in and cuts the disarmed octogenarian security guard in two.
Rigging is boring: the rigger turns on his signal and makes a sedate left turn onto Pike.
Infiltration is boring: the infiltration specialist lifts the unlocked window's sash and slips in.
Magic is boring: the shaman summons a watcher from within his lodge.
Negotiation is boring: the face agrees to a reasonable rate, plus material costs.

You see? Any time you take the simple case, it gets kind of trivial. Real world hacking on a trivially secured, poorly monitored site with lax processes is, yes, simple, and yes, boring.

A hacker trying to penetrate a serious site should be combining a lot of legwork (perhaps trying in a few fake job interviews to figure out what technology they have, maybe buying drinks for disgruntled employees at favourite watering holes near the office, maybe even pickpocketing or burglary) with tech work to find exploits for their actually fully patched kit, should be prepared to identify their honeypots and not get caught in them, because otherwise any source address will sure as hell get identified and turned useless, if not outright assailed, should be hacking surrounding networks to listen in on things like port-knocking systems used in authentication...

This stuff is not easy, it is a serious intellectual puzzle, and is way beyond what your typical sinus-excavating script kiddie even comprehends, let alone achieves. You may find it boring, but lots of people really don't.

Now comes the payday: the hacker, having carefully laid his plans, found his holes, identified his targets, has to coordinate with a maintenance schedule, or ride in on a temporary firewall hole created for a scheduled offsite backup initiation, or get a physical connection to an airgapped embedded network and actually get the right result at the right time and deal with unexpected side effects while his team have their hoops on the line halfway down an elevator shaft. Again, not easy. Not boring either, even if you aren't slinging a rendered claymore around a rendered landscape at a rendered boar.

And why? Why all this hard work? Because unlike with the recent Target fiasco, where maybe they'll lose seven figures, and some guy might lose his job (odds are, not the person responsible, if my experience in the field is any indication) in the world of Shadowrun the presumption is that hugely vaster sums are at stake, and responsible parties might be walked out the back and retired, gulag style, right in their faces. Or the base of the spine. Whichever. So yes, security on any serious site will be tight, up to date, and will have the actual organisational juice to call some shots. Otherwise they'd quit and do something else, low stress, like backup maintenance.

Or no corporation would ever put anything of importance on electronics ever, and hackers are superfluous.

[Lindt]

it's just my opinion but the edition changes are discouraging people from posting. I know it certainly is for me. I use to post a few times a day but as 3 went to 4 , 4 to 4.1 or what ever they called it 4 whatever to 5 I feel left behind...

so I come here for the over stories and soft stuff and ideas but see little reason to post in the 'what rule do I..." threads the way I use to. I suspect there could be a lot of the older hands like me who do that.

Im not calling you old SF. But lets face it, how many of us have been here since the old Jive boards? Those went off in what, late 2001? We have been here a LONG ASS time. I started posting on DS 15 years ago, and that's verging dangerously close to half of my life span. Some times even the bitter old vets like us kinda move on with our lives.

We should subtitle this thread 'old familiar faces'...

[Not of this Worl...]

When Fanpro went through with 4th edition I pretty much gave up on it. I've stuck to playing 3rd edition as life and growing older allow. CGL's biggest mistake was not instantly reversing all the damage Fanpro did (Which included the nWoD knock-off which was 4th edition). 5th edition has brought me back to more active posting because it is bringing back Cyberpunk to the setting, the Shadowtalk culture. I think the massively successful SR kickstarter showed people where the money is at. 5th edition launched with a lot of sales which it deserved for going back to its roots, but I think its future is wobbly because the book was in many ways a disappointment with poor editing and a lot of things like the wireless equipment bonuses/penalties that never should have made it print. I've been a round for a few edition launches so I know there is still time to see if the publisher is going to clean it up with future supplements. I also know there is rarely a second chance to make a first impression with your customers.

Regardless the future moves on with or without you.

[Udoshi]

Anyway, I guess I'm done here. This place is dead and I'm not giving a penny to Catalyst after what they did. I'll tell the players they'll have to accept Dark Heresy or something.

Just run fourth. Just because they ruined your product, doesn't mean the old stuff isn't still valid.


For what its worth, I've recently had GMing duties dumped on (okay, shared, really, its better than it sounds) for the first time, and the resources you made for 4th - hacker cards, guide to the matrix, etc - are all still REALLY useful. Don't sell yourself short.

That being said, I'm totally guilty of not being around as much as I used to. I feel the same way about 5th, and now that its released and the 'in' thing to do, all the interesting stuff I liked to talk about in 4th has fallen by the wayside.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

A hacker trying to penetrate a serious site should be combining a lot of legwork (perhaps trying in a few fake job interviews to figure out what technology they have, maybe buying drinks for disgruntled employees at favourite watering holes near the office, maybe even pickpocketing or burglary) with tech work to find exploits for their actually fully patched kit, should be prepared to identify their honeypots and not get caught in them, because otherwise any source address will sure as hell get identified and turned useless, if not outright assailed, should be hacking surrounding networks to listen in on things like port-knocking systems used in authentication...

You kinda got at the point I was aiming, that real world hacking is more about social engineering than actual hacking.
My point is, hacking as it is Shadowrun is only seen on action movies. In the Real world, hacking like this unless it is government supported with the backing of some REALLY expensive gear is practically non-existant.

[apple]

Das ist not correct, there are examples of real world hacking which hit the news (and which were not social engineering, but indeed network attacks), like Sony or Blizzards network failures.

SYL

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

And these were not made in the blink of an eye as it is with shadowrun. It took at least weeks, perhaps months of carefully planing. That's what I'm talking about. In real world you either use social engineering or you spend weeks/months watching a screen looking for patterns to make your attack.

[Nath]

Real life hacking is much more a matter of opportunity than anything else. What takes time is finding which one are available and where, and, if you're a large operation, how to maximize the time during which you may take advantage of it without being caught (the Windows™ of opportunity ?). You get what you can.

Possibly, even the NSA has computers it would really want to crack, but still can't. Then they may plan long-term, or try to get their hands of second-hand intelligence instead.
Shadowrunners get their target designated first, and then deckers/hackers are expected to be able to hack them within a short timeframe (or do nothing for the entire adventure).

[quentra]

Isn't it rather self-evident that SR hacking has zero in common with real life hacking? I mean, in Shadowrun, you (for some reason) slip into a simulated Virtual Reality avatar to shoot actual anti-theft program avatars (IC) with simulated guns (programs). There is literally no reason whatsoever for hacking, or to be honest, anything outside video games to have full VR, and yet there it is. And for some reason destroying the avatar or representation of something in VR is equivalent to actually hacking it.

Which is awesome, cause real life hacking (like most real life things) is mostly dull work, and none of my runners ever did an honest day's work in their fucking lives. So yes, that requires somehow both envisioning a Hollywood-style world where a kid with a commlink can apparently slice through the toughest security that the corps can offer and yet a world where literally everything still takes place on the Matrix.

The answer, of course, is to have real life fucking security. What do you think wageslaves do all day, if not endlessly patrol the virtual corridors of the corp's datastreams in a sick parody of IC? The benefits - (established infrastructure, instant transfer and update, etc) - beats the downside of (getting hacked like all the time by skript kiddies), even if the actual security (encryption/detection) is laughably weak. People keep bitching that hacking should be rarer or something - I hated 5th for that. Hacking should be retardedly easy and retardedly common (like it pretty much was in 4th) because it doesn't take much else beyond a skillchip and some hardware corps can take advantage of economies of scale for. The difference between a real, dedicated hacker and a skript kiddie in that case is, of course, the difference between an ex-ganger mall cop and an ex-ganger runner - a matter of reputation and luck. And the fact that the hacker can make his own programs (which should be cheaper and more reliable for him in the long run.)

[Fatum]

That being said, I'm totally guilty of not being around as much as I used to. I feel the same way about 5th, and now that its released and the 'in' thing to do, all the interesting stuff I liked to talk about in 4th has fallen by the wayside.

Bah, we can always have a whinefest about the metaplot, or about charop.

Also, while it was the game on Sega Megadrive that sold me on Shadowrun, I only actually started playing with fourth, and frankly, I can't see how it's any less cyberpunk if you want it to be, or how cyberpunk is outdated. Yeah, it's moving a bit into retrofuture territory, but the social issues it was created to address are still there (and black leather's still in fashion). For what it's worth, the Fifth could revitalize the franchise - getting a new edition is much better than an endless stream of pdf releases, after all, - and I hope it's shaped into something that actually makes sense with errata and splats.

[Fatum]

Possibly, even the NSA has computers it would really want to crack, but still can't. Then they may plan long-term, or try to get their hands of second-hand intelligence instead.

The Kremlin allegedly switched back to typewriters.

Isn't it rather self-evident that SR hacking has zero in common with real life hacking?

Yeah, this. Same as SR combat has very little to do with real life urban combat, SR vehicle usage differs from RL, etc. Simply put, SR universe runs on movie rules.

[quentra]

Bah, we can always have a whinefest about the metaplot, or about charop.

Also, while it was the game on Sega Megadrive that sold me on Shadowrun, I only actually started playing with fourth, and frankly, I can't see how it's any less cyberpunk if you want it to be, or how cyberpunk is outdated. Yeah, it's moving a bit into retrofuture territory, but the social issues it was created to address are still there (and black leather's still in fashion). For what it's worth, the Fifth could revitalize the franchise - getting a new edition is much better than an endless stream of pdf releases, after all, - and I hope it's shaped into something that actually makes sense with errata and splats.

I feel like the only way 5th can be made playable instead of 'DIVIDE BY ZERO' constantly is if they rewrite the entire thing. It's not that the changes in and of themselves are shitty (those are more or less subjective) but that the actual rules are shitty and/or missing. I would have rather gotten an endless stream of PDF releases if they actually improved the game, instead of a new edition which doesn't work out of the box.

In aesthetic terms, Almost Human is a bloody cop drama, and still manages to feel cyberpunk despite the lack of 80s retro-futurism.

[Fatum]

I don't really think it has to be completely rewritten. They just have to fix the standing issues with the rules, make up their mind on wireless bonuses (are those for devices communicating with the Matrix or each other; and in both cases, how does that work?) The Fifth actually genuinely addresses a few issues with the Fourth, and if somehow CGL manages to wipe its own ass for once, I'm sure it holds the potential to be better than its predecessor.

Aesthetically, Keanu's still the same :ь

[quentra]

What issues does Fifth solve from Fourth? Maybe I missed something, but Fifth ed. read like 'All the same problems, but worse!' when I got my copy.

[Fatum]

Hackers rolling endless Extended Tests to do their stuff. Melee combat being vastly outperformed by ranged. Hackers never needing their attributes. Direct combat spells being be-all end-all combat solvers. Some skills being nearly useless. Just off the top of my head.

[Brazilian_Shinob...]

The Kremlin allegedly switched back to typewriters.

Why I'm not surprised if this is actually true? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

[quentra]

Hackers rolling endless Extended Tests to do their stuff. Melee combat being vastly outperformed by ranged. Hackers never needing their attributes. Direct combat spells being be-all end-all combat solvers. Some skills being nearly useless. Just off the top of my head.

But Fifth doesn't actually fix any of that. It promises to fix it. It even makes puppy-dog eyes and trembles its lower lip when it promises to fix it. Unfortunately, it doesn't actually fix it.

Extended test hacking - I love it from a GM perspective, because it lets me set hard timers on otherwise routine hacking. Fifth didn't really get rid of rolling endless amounts of barely useful rolls during hacking, it just made it so the GM also has to roll endless amounts of barely useful dice.

Melee combat was shit in Fourth and Fifth did bring it back somewhat up to par, I'll grant.

Hackers never needing attributes was solved IMO with the optional rule of using Skill+Logic with program ratings serving as limits in core 4th. I'd say 5th solved that if the rest of the 5ed matrix rules weren't so shit as to drown anything possible positive effects.

Direct combat spells definitely needed a nerf, but while Fifth did fix that (A little?), it also introduced alchemy which DIVIDE BY ZERO all the time.

There were plenty of useless skills in both editions - can anyone tell me why we have like five different Engineering active skills please?

[Fatum]

Well, as CoD had it, "амьериканци дьелают попьитку" - "the Americans are making an attempt". The Fifth might not fix all these, but at least it addresses them and tries to make the game better.

You say "the GM also has to roll endless amounts of barely useful dice" as if you've never tried hacking on the fly in the Fourth.

Well, yeah, I won't argue on relative value of houserules here, but fact is, the hacking mechanics as used in the Fifth RAW addresses the issue with the Fourth RAW.
Fifth Matrix is not unrepairably broken, it just needs someone to write it clearly, and someone to actually do editing on the results.

Why the hate for alchemy?

Because Engineering is different DUH!

[Koekepan]

You kinda got at the point I was aiming, that real world hacking is more about social engineering than actual hacking.
My point is, hacking as it is Shadowrun is only seen on action movies. In the Real world, hacking like this unless it is government supported with the backing of some REALLY expensive gear is practically non-existant.

I'm sorry, but NDAs prevent me from giving specifics, but please take my word for it that this is utterly incorrect. Some pretty small time hobbyists will pretend to play secret agent, and do all these things. Usually the overlap involves people with a background in psychology as well as computer science or software engineering (although plenty of others are self taught). All it really takes is one guy with a believable smile, and some time on his hands, and a computer or two.

And just on the off chance that there is a CIO or anything reading this: every time you tell your admins to just get it done and nobody cares about cracking us guys like that get wood.

[quentra]

I think it's been proved in other threads that alchemy results in divide by zero errors with even basic, expected applications of the ability.

Fifth fails in most ways in making the game better. Hacking on the fly was not really all that bad - I run a weekly game with near-RAW Matrix rules, and it doesn't take all that long. The Fifth edition Matrix really is broken beyond repair - just look at ownership chains, for example, and tell me that a system that incentivizes never using the gear you bought (because unattended devices use their DR*2 to resist hacking) is somehow an improvement. The math doesn't work on the given host ratings (the IC will murder-rape you so hard at the high ratings, and there's really no way to catch up short of an entire squad of nothing but elite hackers - while that makes awesome cyberpunk, it makes for shitty TTRPG play if people wanna play something other than 'elite hacker.')

I can't see that Fifth did anything significant to skills, either - hell, half of them are straight copy-pasta from Fourth. Actually half the book is straight copy-pasta from Fourth, and the other half is an unworkable morass of half-written rules and paens to GM intervention. (What's the difference between an attack and not an attack? Ask your GM! He's always right and in no way will that ever create table conflict.)

[Glyph]

Honestly, I never thought melee being outperformed by ranged combat was bad - I mean, that's how it should be. That said, SR4 had some pretty wicked options for characters specializing in close combat. Direct spells were never the problem - overcasting being too easy was the problem. They were over-nerfed in SR5, to the point of making them nearly useless.

There were some things I liked in SR5. Some things simply had the wording tightened up a bit. Edge is almost the same, but now we know that you can re-roll misses or negate a glitch, what happens when you buy a "critical success" on an opposed dice contest, etc. I agree with raising skills, so that we don't have to pretend that differences of 1 die represent vast differences in ability, and so that people don't start out as the best in the world at char-gen. I think the initiative changes resulted in too little difference between augmented and non-augmented speed, but I do agree with tying when you go with how many passes you have, rather than having initiative score and initiative passes be two separate things.

[binarywraith]

Why I'm not surprised if this is actually true? (IMG:style_emoticons/default/cyber.gif)

Because it's a lovely and poetic solution to the problem of electronic signals espionage?

Much like your friendly local sammy getting 2060-era Wired Reflexes put in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

[Koekepan]

Because it's a lovely and poetic solution to the problem of electronic signals espionage?

Much like your friendly local sammy getting 2060-era Wired Reflexes put in. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)

There are, or certainly used to be, classifications which were never supposed to be put on computer in the USA as well. Never having worked in those environments, I could not confirm the truth of this.

[Fatum]

I think it's been proved in other threads that alchemy results in divide by zero errors with even basic, expected applications of the ability.

I don't feel that claiming it's a commonly known fact counts as a valid explanation.

The Fifth edition Matrix really is broken beyond repair - just look at ownership chains, for example, and tell me that a system that incentivizes never using the gear you bought (because unattended devices use their DR*2 to resist hacking) is somehow an improvement.

So, a ruling that can be fixed with a single-line correction is killing the Matrix for you?

The math doesn't work on the given host ratings (the IC will murder-rape you so hard at the high ratings, and there's really no way to catch up short of an entire squad of nothing but elite hackers - while that makes awesome cyberpunk, it makes for shitty TTRPG play if people wanna play something other than 'elite hacker.')

I have frankly not tried playing a hacker in 5th; so I'm taking your word for it. However, I fail to see how the need to be competent in your archetype is making the rulesystem any bad.

[apple]

What he could mean (just a guess): the entry level to do anything worthwhile in the matrix is becoming to high. You are either nothing or a crack elite matrix commando, nothing between. Considering the prices of decks it indeed seems that there are either no hackers or only elite hackers who wield hardware in the higher 5 to lwoer 6 digit numbers just to start hacking.

SYL

[Fatum]

Well, that was kind of the point of return to cyberdeck - making deckers a breed aside. Focused on decking and nothing else.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Well, that was kind of the point of return to cyberdeck - making deckers a breed aside. Focused on decking and nothing else.

With no entry level, though, it is fairly difficult to get Elite Hackers?
You can be a Street Sam or Face with Very Little investment in resources, and then improve from there. The entry level is obvious and easy to attain.
Sadly, you cannot really do that with a Hacker/Decker, since your Investment is ludicrous. There are no real "entry level" hackers.

[Fatum]

Not any less than starter sammies, or in the previous editions. I mean, yeah, they're likely hacking their local laundromats with a self-made deck, and can't really take on megacorps nodes, but an entry-level sam won't take on corp spec-ops, either.

[apple]

Ah, no, there are no selfmade decks (as quote by the devs during this part of the discussion (they were asked because in one of the examples a hacker clobs together five commlinks for a crude deck - which the devs immediately correct that this was just an example which is not possible via rules and not intended).

A streetsam, or in the most basic sense someone who shoot people or beat them to death, need an investment of some hundred ¥ (for a weapon, from a rusty katana to an low level assault rifle). Thats it. From there you can add armor, implants (cheap and expensive), more weapons, sensors, equipment etc until you have a 6 million ¥ cyberzombie.

For a decker? 50k or the local laundromat will not even talk to you. Low level megacorp nodes for a beginner round? I am not even sure if a 50k deck would be enough or if you really should start with the 100k/200k deck.

Low level scaling was indeed far better in SR4.

SYL

[Fatum]

Ah, no, there are no selfmade decks (as quote by the devs during this part of the discussion (they were asked because in one of the examples a hacker clobs together five commlinks for a crude deck - which the devs immediately correct that this was just an example which is not possible via rules and not intended).

That's some bs. Hell, self-made decks are canonically there in Storm Front.

[apple]

Yes, exactly and that was explicitly "corrected" by the devs as "its only fiction, it has nothing to do with how SR5 works". Otherwise, if 5 commlinks would make an deck no one would need to pay 50k+ ...

(Hey, I am just the messenger, don´t shoot me)

SYL

[Elfenlied]

Melee combat being vastly outperformed by ranged.

I always thought that was a feature, not a problem.

[Fatum]

Yes, me too; but apparently for a lot of people it was a bug, not a feature.

[CloisterCobra]

I think I see what knasser was getting at, it used to be that an edition war would be over twenty pages by now, dozens of people would be caught in impenetrable arguments about edge cases of the rules, appeals to authors and mods would be everywhere and there would be a sizable community of people posting to say how much they were enjoying watching.

Incidentally, some of us New Authors (since the big bust up) do lurk here occasionally.

[binarywraith]

It becomes a problem when you consider that your average Ork, Troll, Cybered up sammy, or physad is literally superhumanly strong. Having a troll with a combat axe hit less painfully than a .45 slug is downright silly, because there's more force behind the troll's swing.

Remember folks, physics is a bitch. Most bullets don't have all that much kinetic force behind them, because the whole 'equal and opposite reaction' bit of conservation of momentum means that the recoil would murder you if they did. They just exert their force over a very, very small area.

Gunplay outperforming melee by a bit isn't a terrible problem, but a vast gulf is.

[Fatum]

I think I see what knasser was getting at, it used to be that an edition war would be over twenty pages by now, dozens of people would be caught in impenetrable arguments about edge cases of the rules, appeals to authors and mods would be everywhere and there would be a sizable community of people posting to say how much they were enjoying watching.

Incidentally, some of us New Authors (since the big bust up) do lurk here occasionally.

Dumpshock used to have actual knowledgeable people around.

[Patrick Goodman]

Dumpshock used to have actual knowledgeable people around.

I will try not to take that personally.

[CloisterCobra]

Dumpshock used to have actual knowledgeable people around.

Whoops, that's my cue to go back to lurking.

[Koekepan]

It becomes a problem when you consider that your average Ork, Troll, Cybered up sammy, or physad is literally superhumanly strong. Having a troll with a combat axe hit less painfully than a .45 slug is downright silly, because there's more force behind the troll's swing.

I absolutely agree, with a couple of details added:

The bigger and tougher the shooter, the nastier the recoil the shooter can handle. There are also some tricks which can be added to the mix to allow for more power, such as porting, recoil compensation gadgets, and recoil pads or jackets.

On the other hand, you can put grip tape on the handle of your combat axe, wear work gloves and so on.

In the end, momentum is a generally better predictor of penetration than kinetic energy (although there are many details to that) and swung weapons tend to build up momentum in the swing. This is why hammering nails works better with a claw hammer than a rock.

Remember folks, physics is a bitch. Most bullets don't have all that much kinetic force behind them, because the whole 'equal and opposite reaction' bit of conservation of momentum means that the recoil would murder you if they did. They just exert their force over a very, very small area.

Gunplay outperforming melee by a bit isn't a terrible problem, but a vast gulf is.

Again, I totally agree, and I'd add that it may be an interesting exercise to try some thing in the realm of terminal ballistics similar to what can be seen on websites like Brassfetcher and The Box of Truth.

[binarywraith]

Yeah, leverage is, as one would expect, incredibly useful. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/biggrin.gif)


Also, the above is why I've always wanted to see strength-based recoil compensation in SR. I have a hard time finding it plausible that the recoil off a 9mm light pistol is any sort of problem to someone who can crush steel with their cyberarms, after all.

[Nath]

Also, the above is why I've always wanted to see strength-based recoil compensation in SR. I have a hard time finding it plausible that the recoil off a 9mm light pistol is any sort of problem to someone who can crush steel with their cyberarms, after all.

You mean, like the recoil rules in 2nd edition Fields of Fire (1 point of RC for every two points of Strength, starting at 5), or 3rd edition Cannon Companion (1 point of RC for every 6 points of Strength, starting at 6), or 4th edition Arsenal (1 point of RC for every 4 points of Strength, starting at 6) ?

[Tanegar]

Gunplay outperforming melee by a bit isn't a terrible problem, but a vast gulf is.

I'm not at all convinced of this. Yes, the axe imparts more kinetic energy per strike... but you can also fire a gun a whole lot faster than you can swing an axe. If Heinrich Triggermensch can put two rounds in a guy in the time it takes Gunther Axemann to get in one good swing (two Simple Actions vs. one Complex), I'm OK with Heinrich's two bullets doing more cumulative damage.

[apple]

But it is not only about cumulative damage, if you compare 4k from a light pistole and 4S from the strongest man realistically alive. And that is not even counting in strength 14 cybertrolls who are literally way about any human charts.

SYL

[binarywraith]

You mean, like the recoil rules in 2nd edition Fields of Fire (1 point of RC for every two points of Strength, starting at 5), or 3rd edition Cannon Companion (1 point of RC for every 6 points of Strength, starting at 6), or 4th edition Arsenal (1 point of RC for every 4 points of Strength, starting at 6) ?

Yep! I've always liked those (FoF especially) and wanted them to be in the base rules.

[Elfenlied]

It becomes a problem when you consider that your average Ork, Troll, Cybered up sammy, or physad is literally superhumanly strong. Having a troll with a combat axe hit less painfully than a .45 slug is downright silly, because there's more force behind the troll's swing.

Remember folks, physics is a bitch. Most bullets don't have all that much kinetic force behind them, because the whole 'equal and opposite reaction' bit of conservation of momentum means that the recoil would murder you if they did. They just exert their force over a very, very small area.

Gunplay outperforming melee by a bit isn't a terrible problem, but a vast gulf is.

Damage isn't where melee gets outperformed, since it often deals more damage than non FA guns. It gets outperformed in terms of action economy (Simple vs Complex), dodge pools (in SR4) and investment, needing the most commonly dumpstatted attribute in a system where attributes are not equally important but equally expensive.

That, and the whole "need to get close" deal. That's why melee gets outperformed.

There are plenty of games out there where melee characters outperform gun users. Please don't make Shadowrun one of those.

[Critias]

I think I see what knasser was getting at, it used to be that an edition war would be over twenty pages by now, dozens of people would be caught in impenetrable arguments about edge cases of the rules, appeals to authors and mods would be everywhere and there would be a sizable community of people posting to say how much they were enjoying watching.

I'm kind of confused as to why people are acting like none of this happened with SR5.