Chemical Doses For Weapons, Injection arrows, darts, gas grenades, capsule rounds Options

[BlackJaw]

How many doses of a chemical is needed for an injection dart/arrow or gas grenade? I've only found explict rules for capsule rounds in Run & Gun.

I think in 4th edition it took 10 doses of a chemical for a gas grenade, and 1 per other weapon, but that doesn't appear to be holding up in 5th now that I've seen Run & Gun's Capsule Rounds.

In 5th I'm thinking it's one dose for a gas grenade, and actually 1 dose handles 10 darts/arrows or 5 capsule rounds.

My theory is that darts are priced at 10 for $75, gas grenades at 1 for $40 "+Chemical Price", and Capsule Rounds are explicitly 5 capsules per dose (as per page 55 of Run & Gun.)

Has this been specified somewhere (other than the capsule rounds) that I'm missing?

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Was that ever specified in SR4A? Because I don't remember ever seeing it anywhere (definitely could have missed it though). Have any citations?

[Method]

In 5th I'm thinking it's one dose for a gas grenade, and actually 1 dose handles 10 darts/arrows or 5 capsule rounds.

I don't have Run&Gun yet, but I really hope that's not the case. Otherwise your drugs become more effective as you divide the dose (i.e. a dose of neurostun in a syringe can take out one guard, but a dose divided into 5 capsule rounds can take out 5 guards). It defies reason.

A dose should be the amount of a compound required to get the desired effect. So 1 dose should be required for 1 capsule round and if you want your gas grenade to take out 10 dudes it should require 10 doses.

[Stahlseele]

i think this had been specified in SR3 as one dose per useage.
so a coated blade has one dose on it, as long as you don't deal damage.
as soon as you cut someone up, that one dose gets used up.
one splash grenade is one dose as well
one arrow/bullet is one dose as well.
this is pretty potent if you remember the over dose rules.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

I don't have Run&Gun yet, but I really hope that's not the case. Otherwise your drugs become more effective as you divide the dose (i.e. a dose of neurostun in a syringe can take out one guard, but a dose divided into 5 capsule rounds can take out 5 guards). It defies reason.

A dose should be the amount of a compound required to get the desired effect. So 1 dose should be required for 1 capsule round and if you want your gas grenade to take out 10 dudes it should require 10 doses.

That is indeed how it is described in SR5 Run and Gun. So yes, it defies reason. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/frown.gif)

[Jack VII]

I don't have Run&Gun yet, but I really hope that's not the case. Otherwise your drugs become more effective as you divide the dose (i.e. a dose of neurostun in a syringe can take out one guard, but a dose divided into 5 capsule rounds can take out 5 guards). It defies reason.

A dose should be the amount of a compound required to get the desired effect. So 1 dose should be required for 1 capsule round and if you want your gas grenade to take out 10 dudes it should require 10 doses.

It is the case. With that said, let's consider. One dose in a gas grenade is diluted to cover a 10m radius area so... 314 square feet? It kind of makes sense that you should be able to dilute that dose down among several single target capsule rounds. I do have a problem that injection arrows seem to get screwed in this deal, although a lot of that comes from my confusion over capsule rounds. As written, it's not clear what toxins you can actually put in there or whether the capsule round itself is filled with a DMSO like delivery system.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

It is the case. With that said, let's consider. One dose in a gas grenade is diluted to cover a 10m radius area so... 314 square feet? It kind of makes sense that you should be able to dilute that dose down among several single target capsule rounds. I do have a problem that injection arrows seem to get screwed in this deal, although a lot of that comes from my confusion over capsule rounds. As written, it's not clear what toxins you can actually put in there or whether the capsule round itself is filled with a DMSO like delivery system.

And yet one Dose in a Syringe is exactly enough for... One Dose. So, One Target.
See the issue?

[Jack VII]

And yet one Dose in a Syringe is exactly enough for... One Dose. So, One Target.
See the issue?

Like I mentioned, injection arrows get screwed in the same manner. I didn't think I had to elaborate about every other item that has the same problem (if so, I guess let's add chem patches to the list, any others?). IMO, all individualized delivery vectors should get the 1-to-5 treatment.

ETA: Or alternately, to make things easier, everything takes one does, but you need several doses for area vectors.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Like I mentioned, injection arrows get screwed in the same manner. I didn't think I had to elaborate about every other item that has the same problem (if so, I guess let's add chem patches to the list, any others?). IMO, all individualized delivery vectors should get the 1-to-5 treatment.

ETA: Or alternately, to make things easier, everything takes one does, but you need several doses for area vectors.

Your Edit is how it SHOULD be done. Otherwise, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Method]

So does splitting the dose into 5 capsule rounds reduce the power of the drug or toxin?

[Jack VII]

Nope

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

Apparently, splitting the doses up into Capsule Rounds, or aerosolizing it into an area delivery weapon, actually concentrates the drug or toxin. There is really no other way to correlate the dosage with the toxicity. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/smile.gif)

[Method]

Must be homeopathic.

[Umidori]

At my table, we houserule gas grenades to require 10 doses of a chemical, and everything else like coated blades and injection darts requires a single dose. We don't often have folks using gas grenades, though, so your mileage may vary, but we've been happy with it so far.

~Umi

[psychophipps]

I actually like the idea of one-fifth dose working great for capsule rounds. Turn the corner, blat off a few semi-auto bursts of essence of deepweed, and hop back around the corner. Let them stew for a second and then have your troll fire off the pneumatic soy-twinkie cannon he has strapped to his back. Let them kill each other for that moist, fluffy yellow deliciousness with just the right amount of soy-fluff filling and continue your run on the cheap.

[Tymeaus Jalynsfe...]

At my table, we houserule gas grenades to require 10 doses of a chemical, and everything else like coated blades and injection darts requires a single dose. We don't often have folks using gas grenades, though, so your mileage may vary, but we've been happy with it so far.

~Umi

That works well, I imagine.

[Stahlseele]

How does that work with the overdose rules?

[Umidori]

We rule it that the grenade disperses an even dosage across the area of effect of 10m - part of why we chose 10 doses.

If a victim remains in the cloud long enough (as appropriate to how much the gas has dispersed, if at all) they receive another dose. In an enclosed space where the gas can't disperse, it becomes one dose per Combat Turn spent in the cloud, applied at the end of the turn. Conversely, in any relatively open space it's typically at least two Combat Turns before another dose is applied - sometimes more, determined by the GM based on conditions, and sometimes no further dosing at all is possible.

It's only come up a couple of times, so we haven't required anything more exacting than that. Suggestions for a more detailed expansion of the idea could be interesting, however.

All this applies to both Inhalation and Contact vectors, by the way. And yes, it means that if you throw a Neurostun or even just a Tear Gas grenade into a closet with someone who can't get out or ventilate the space, you can quite easily kill them in a couple turns. This seems to reflect reality pretty well, given that despite its reputation as being non-lethal, CS gas can - and does - still kill people who who pass out in clouds of it, or who otherwise can't get away from it.

~Umi