Gary Gygax on why you're not allowed to play a monster PC, Relishing the sweet sweet taste of 1978 Options

[Wounded Ronin]

Man, I am really relishing my read of the 1st edition AD&D DMG. Gary Gygax states at great length why you cannot possibly have a quality game with a monster PC:

THE MONSTER AS A PLAYER CHARACTER
On occasion one player or another will evidence a strong desire to operate
as a monster, conceiving a playable character as a strong demon, a devil,
a dragon, or one of the most powerful sort of undead creatures. This is
done principally because the player sees the desired monster character as
superior to his or her peers and likely to provide a dominant role for him or
her in the campaign. A moment of reflection will bring them to the unalterable
conclusion that the game is heavily weighted towards mankind.
ADVANCED DBD is unquestionably "humanocentric", with demi-humans,
semi-humans, and humanoids in various orbits around the sun of
humanity. Men are the worst monsters, particularly high level characters
such as clerics, fighters, and magic-users - whether singly, in small
groups, or in large companies. The ultra-powerful beings of other planes
are more fearsome - the 3 D s of demi-gods, demons, and devils are
enough to strike fear into most characters, let alone when the very gods
themselves are brought into consideration. Yet, there is a point where the
well-equipped, high-level party of adventurers can challenge a demon
prince, an arch-devil, or a demi-god. While there might well be some near
or part humans with the group so doing, it is certain that the leaders will be
human. In co-operation men bring ruin upon monsterdom, for they have
no upper limits as to level or acquired power from spells or items.
The game features humankind for a reason. It is the most logical basis in
an illogical game. From a design aspect it provides the sound groundwork.
From a standpoint of creating the campaign milieu it provides the most
readily usable assumptions. From a participation approach it is the only
method, for a11 players are, after all is said and done, human, and it allows
fhem the role with which most are most desirous and capable of identifying
with. From all views then it is enough fantasy to ossume a swords &
sorcery cosmos, with impossible professions and make-believe magic. To
adventure amongst the weird is fantasy enough without becoming that
too! Consider also that each and every Dungeon Master worthy of that title
is continually at work expanding his or her campaign milieu. The game is
not merely a meaningless dungeon and an urban base around which is
plopped the dreaded wilderness. Each of you must design a world, piece
by piece, as if a jigsaw puzzle were being hand crafted, and each new
section must fit perfectly the pattern of the other pieces. Faced with such a
task all of us need all of the aid and assistance we can get. Without such
help the sheer magnitude of the task would force most of us to throw up
our hands in despair.

Of course, as we all know, many years after 1978 a number of quality games have come out in D&D allowing for monster PCs. My favorite personally was Planescape: Torment which was all about oddball player characters with unique situations and special powers.


An idea that I've had since I was a kid was how much fun it would be to play a necromancer or lich campaign. Basically you would try to take over the world and a lot of the game would be doing quests and undertaking tasks to allow you to raise a bigger and badder undead army. If all the player characters are evil and working together to build the world's biggest undead army there's no reason why the campaign couldn't run smoothly.

[Shortstraw]

An idea that I've had since I was a kid was how much fun it would be to play a necromancer or lich campaign. Basically you would try to take over the world and a lot of the game would be doing quests and undertaking tasks to allow you to raise a bigger and badder undead army. If all the player characters are evil and working together to build the world's biggest undead army there's no reason why the campaign couldn't run smoothly.

You don't try to take over the world that leads to everyone ganging up on you and hordes of heroes swarming your lair. What you do is build a small power base in unclaimed/untamed lands and when the savage hordes try to overrun civilization (which in d&d settings seems to happen every few months) you come in and save the day.

[Shortstraw]

Okay what causes the double posts?

[ShadowDragon8685]

You don't try to take over the world that leads to everyone ganging up on you and hordes of heroes swarming your lair. What you do is build a small power base in unclaimed/untamed lands and when the savage hordes try to overrun civilization (which in d&d settings seems to happen every few months) you come in and save the day.

Social engineering FTW!

Okay what causes the double posts?

A number of things. Double-tapping the add-reply button can do that. Connection issues, too. Sometimes, just plain old forum weirdness.

[Synapse]

You don't try to take over the world that leads to everyone ganging up on you and hordes of heroes swarming your lair.

Defending your stronghold and quelling rebellion would make a great sequel, though. And really, as a necromancer you're already immortal. You've got to plan for future entertainment.

[Ogrebear]

It is an interesting quote from Mr. Gygax.

Is he suggesting that near immortal Elves and stubborn, underground dwelling Dwarves are closer to the Human experience? From what I have seen the 'nasty, brutal' Orcs have more in common...

[Wounded Ronin]

Seriously. When you think about it how can I empathize better with an elf that lives thousands of years and prances around in the forest versus an orc who is like a Somali militiaman?

If you really think about it if elves like prancing around in the forest so much why would they risk it all going on dungeon crawls? At least with the human and orc life is short and brutal enough that you can understand the motivation to take big risks to try and claw ahead in the world a little bit.

It would seem much harder to role play and portray the motivations of the elf.


Another thought: if Gygax was so pre-occupied with controlling the abilities and power level of PCs, why are spells like Resurrection and Cure Disease pretty much ordinary? At least make those maximum level spells that nobody has. Instead of the contrived idea that the PCs can get anyone resurrected but it's really expensive, we have system shock rolls to make vs. constitution, it ages the caster, etc.

It's sort of like a lot of the rules are added to control something in an extremely contrived manner. But the whole issue could be solved by not introducing the extremely powerful initial thing (save vs. die poison, resurrections in every church, cure disease is commonplace, wish granting items exist and are pre-loaded in dungeons but then every wish has to be some kind of disastrous monkey's paw thing) in a ubiquitous glib manner in the first place. If that stuff was rare in the first place it wouldn't be needed to have all the convoluted counterweights to discourage players from using them all the time.

I'm sort of forming the idea of an otherwise old-school D&D game where certain magic items, special items, and powers are extremely rare, and then cutting out a lot of the convoluted crap that was introduced more or less simply to regulate these items.

[binarywraith]

Consider that elves and dwarves didn't really enter D&D as player characters because Gygax was fond of them so much as because of Tolkien's massive popularity leading to his tropes defining the view of the races in the popular eye. They were both originally massively restricted as far as advancement and would top out at much lower power levels than human characters were capable of reaching.

Gygax spoke about it in an interview here.

[Wounded Ronin]

Interesting interview. I like how Gygax used to work in insurance. He must have been an actuary!

When you think about it elves and dwarves having EXP caps is pretty goofy. If they live for thousands of years they should be able to become superhumanly experienced, right?

[ShadowDragon8685]

We've pretty well established that Gary Gygax was a bit nutty.


Anyway, re: Elves and Dwarves.

Having a long natural lifespan is no guarantor that someone is going to take the long view. One-one thousand, two-one thousand, seconds are seconds, whether you're an elf or a dwarf. Hell, if you think about it, that might actually be more incentive to go out and risk your neck.

Consider a young elf or Dwarf born of low means or class. Depending on the game, the rules, and the group, an elf can have a lifespan of "A thousand years" to "Does not expire of so-called natural causes," requiring either a failed bout with disease, misadventure, or violence to end them. Even a Dwarf can usually easily last a quarter of a century.

A human only has to live a commoner's life for sixty years or so. For an Elf or a Dwarf, it could become impossibly, mind-numbingly dull, especially if they're still young and looking forward to a lifetime of drudgery. Going out and risking your neck to potentially come home famous and rich doesn't seem such a bad idea, does it?