Manaball, Who gets hit... Options

[GrinderTheTroll]

This is undoubtably been debated before, I think my brain is just checking out for holidays early... :twirl:

The scenario is: you cast a manaball at a target you can see inside a room. Another person you can also see is inside the Radius (your magic attribute), but outside the room. Would they still get hit with the manaball?

IN other words, I am correct in that it will effect all those you can see reguardless of where the spell originates? It's not a "mana explosion from a point" like a grenade, but more of a "instant down-pour" of harsh mana?

Thanks.

[JaronK]

Right, you hit everyone you can see in the radius, regardless of terrain. It's just an "everything in this radius gets hit" spell. EMs, on the other hand, are explosions, and as such can hit folks you can't see but would be blocked by terrain as expected.

JaronK

[Erebus]

[Herald of Verjig...]

Keep in mind, that it is everyone you have LoS to in the target area. If you can see through the wall in back, those behind are valid targets. If you can't see through the wall, those behind aren't valid targets. However, the guy who is well hidden such that you didn't notice him but is in a place where you could see him easily if not for the ruthenium is also a valid target.

If there is a chance of a perception test to visually notice something in the area of effect, it's a valid target. Yes, mirrors on the other side of the area can give LoS to people behind a wall but in the area.

[Kagetenshi]

No, the guy under the desk does not get hit.

~J

[Erebus]

[Critias]

With Manaball, it's who you SEE, not who's "realistically" within some sort of line-of-blast from the spell's center. It's not really an explosion, like Fireball (or a grenade)...physical barriers only count if they block the caster's line of sight, the spell itself is unaffected by such mundane worries.

I almost think of it more as a spell that blasts a bunch of individual beams from the caster to everyone he sees in a certain area, instead of as an actual explosion.

[Shev]

So if a mage was astrally projecting, and casts manaball on a dual-natured target, any non-dual natured targets in the affected area are still not hit becuase they are not valid targets, correct?

[Kagetenshi]

One caveat: in keeping with Herald of Verjigorm's note, if you "don't see" the guy under the desk because you didn't notice him, not because he isn't visible to you, he still gets affected.

Shev: that is correct. The same is true if the mage is perceiving and decides to cast on the astral, which can be a good way to do selective targeting if your team is in melee with a bunch of Ghouls.

~J

[Herald of Verjig...]

Manaball (and other mana type spells) can be cast on the astral by an astrally active caster. In such cases, only targets with an active astral component at the time can be hit. This includes dual natured creatures, purely astral entities, and active foci among a few others. Much like how a manaball cast on the physical plane can only affect things that have a physical presence such as metahumans in their bodies and manifesting spirits.

[Kagetenshi]

[Jason Farlander]

Weird side question: lets say an astrally percieving magecomes across the comatose body of a projecting mage. At that moment, the projecting mage is returning to his body, and sees the percieving mage. They roll initiative, and the percieving mage somehow manages to win. He casts two manabolt spells, using the rules for simultaneous spellcasting - one at the astral form of the projecting mage, and one at the projecting mage's body. Does the world explode?

[Herald of Verjig...]

Drek, I usually type the right one when considering manifesting vs. materializing.

Ok, in the newest concept: no, the world does not explode. The mage takes damage from each (if they succeed) according to the rules for damage to astral form and damage to host body. (I think there's some timing rules that would be relevant, but I haven't had many cases of bodies being found and clubbed)

[Jason Farlander]

[Herald of Verjig...]

If that was all it took, there would be no earth for Shadowrun to take place on since it would've probably been destroyed by February 4, 2013.

[bit_buckethead]

[Ol' Scratch]

He's on the Physical and not projecting. He's just targeting an astral and a physical subject so drain is normal for both, albeit adjusted for the fact that he's simultaneously casting two spells.

[ES_Riddle]

[Zeel De Mort]

Do you need to break an astral form's masking to affect it with a manaball on the astral plane?

We ruled that for a manabolt you do need to break it, or otherwise be aware that the person has an astral presence, but just wanted to check since you can affect people on the physical that you didn't perceive but have line of sight to, which is news to me but makes sense.

[Siege]

Just for giggles - if someone is standing behind bullet-proof glass, he still gets nailed by the manaball.

However, a physical explosion would have to penetrate the barrier first.

-Siege

[Ol' Scratch]

[Zeel De Mort]

Sounds reasonable.

So do you really need a line of sight (from your eyes to their physical or astral presence accordingly) at all? Or just a line of effect (sorry!) from your aura to theirs or what?

I remember a while ago some guys were having a crazy argument about whether you could powerball, or was it manaball, an area and hold your fingers over your friends in your field of vision so they wouldn't get affected.

[On the physical plane] What if you were blind or had your eyes closed and you just said you cast manaball 20m directly ahead of you? Do you hit everyone in the area that you'd be able to see were you not blind? Or do you hit no one at all since you can't see anything?

Silly questions, and I don't need to know the answers, but tell me anyway.

[Zeel De Mort]

Never mind, just found the answer. LOS only. Quite a simple one.

[Espiritu]

Can anyone logically explain why it is required that you have LOS?

This is my issue. The spell has a radial area of effect Magic Rating x meters or such. This is considured a manifested effect directly on the spot like instaboil. No explosions so not outwards. If your hitting a spot with a radial effect why does it not work in it's maximum area? You put a Powerball on a spot and it crushes the hell out of everything...so...if you look through a doorway, put a powerball on a chair just 5 feet in, all that gets crushed is the chair what you can see behind the chair, and the path up to the doorways edge and the structure of the doorway?

What if someone is standing behind the frame of the doorway off to the side? Why does it not affect them? What reason is there for this?

[Ol' Scratch]

Don't rely on the spell's name to describe the effect. Instead of seeing Manaball as a ball of mana, see it as Mass Manabolt. The spell gives you the ability to take multiple targets, but due to the limitations of your magic and the spell, you can only hit targets in a given radius... but you're still effectively shooting multiple Manabolts simultaneously at each one of them rather than encapsulating them all with a single effect, and due to the limitation of that style of attack, it's an all-or-nothing affair. You don't get to pick your targets; you're targeting everything you can see in that area.

Basically, Elemental Manipulations are indirect spells; you create an effect and the effect does the damage; your LOS is to the spot where you want that effect to originate. Combat Spells are direct spells, you directly affect a given target; your LOS is to the target themselves, not a general area.

[ES_Riddle]

[Ol' Scratch]

[ES_Riddle]

[Kanada Ten]

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Kagetenshi]

[hyzmarca]

[Kagetenshi]

Exactly. If you go far enough back, you're always going to find something inexplicable. For instance, can anyone explain to me why it should make sense that there is this big universe with all sorts of laws and rules and bizarre things out there, when the simpler explanation is that it is the imaginings of a single mind (mine)?

Like the physical laws, magic being LOS simply is true in current thinking. Unlike in real life, we can even remove the qualification: magic is simply LOS-based.

Human magic, at least.

~J

[tjn]

Aside from game balance reasons (I just blew up Damien Knight!), there are some explanations within magical theory, well least hermetically speaking.

But basically, you don't need LOS, what you need is a symbolic connection between the mage and the target of the spell [EDIT]so that the spell goes where you want it to go[/EDIT]. I've heard some call it Variance Sympathy or somesuch, but personally I go with Identity.

It's just acquiring LoS is the easiest way (by far) of satisfying this requirement that humans know.

See, Ritual Sorcery doesn't require the target to be there, but it does require some symbol of the target, and the more direct the connection (representations to personal effects to bodily matter), the easier the casting becomes.

Here's a poor analogy, but it's something like getting a lock on with a missle. Cept there's no way to fire the missle without the lock on, but once locked on it always hits (kinda like Streak missles if anyone is familuar with Battletech).

[GrinderTheTroll]

[Kanada Ten]

[KarmaInferno]

And remember, to avoid getting hit by that manaball, always stand behind trees.

If you can, strap one to your back. Just make sure to water it on a regular basis.

:wobble:


-karma

[ES_Riddle]