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DocMortand
post Nov 7 2004, 06:21 AM
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My group lost it's first member today, so technically it's my first kill. Of course, I've lost a lot of chars in return, so it's only fair...but I still feel a sense of regret.

My question to all is - how did you feel as a GM when you killed your first PC? I know this may be reaching way back into antiquity, and may not be an original thread, but I'm still curious.

Doc Mortand
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RedmondLarry
post Nov 7 2004, 06:47 AM
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It hurt. I felt sad.
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sidartha
post Nov 7 2004, 07:14 AM
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I giggled.
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Joe Outside
post Nov 7 2004, 07:26 AM
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I was annoyed. I was trying to keep these idiots alive and they kept insisting on doing things the by the book were suicide (The cyberzombie has a LMG? Cool! I want it! I'll knife him and loot the corpse...)
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Sahandrian
post Nov 7 2004, 08:17 AM
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I like announcing who's not surviving the next storyline. I mostly kill NPCs or my former PCs who I'm running as NPCs, though...

Can't remember ever actually killing a PC, though. I need to fix that now. Had a rigger who deserved at least three deaths one game. Didn't get any of them cause I knew he'd whine for the next week or two.
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ES_Riddle
post Nov 7 2004, 09:57 AM
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QUOTE (Sahandrian)
I like announcing who's not surviving the next storyline.

Often when we get distracted and the GM tries to get our attention back, he will say, "So what do you guys do?"

Typically we reply, "We break into the Ares compound and steal the new prototype without incident."

To which he replies, "Ok. You die, you die, you have 8 boxes of physical and 1 of stun, and you need to check for magic loss."

------------
I'm not a ShadowRun GM, but I do DM when our group plays D&D. It is a slightly different situation with the ability to have the dead raised, but I still feel a little twinge when a PC bites it. It always makes me feel better when I look at what other options the PC's could have done to come out of the situation wounded but still living. Only if you can't come up with a plausible scenario that involved everyone living, then it means you probably should feel a little bit guilty. If the characters earned their death though (like going against Loftwyr's wishes when he said that he would hunt you down and kill you…ask Bane about that) then you have no reason to feel bad.
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Kremlin KOA
post Nov 7 2004, 11:38 AM
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I looked for more PCs
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Azrael
post Nov 7 2004, 12:03 PM
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Handed the bloke a slice of pizza, fresh glass of coke and said:

"Did you really think it was a good idea to fire an panther assault cannon into an LPG storage faciliity?"
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spotlite
post Nov 7 2004, 12:55 PM
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Mainly all I could think was 'Oh Gawd, I've killed Spanners. He's really dead. Really really. I can't beleive I pulled off a TN#15 test for that go-ganger with the SMG on four dice. I can't beleive Spanners botched his save with eight body dice. I can't beleive he wasn't wearing his vest. Oh Gawd, I hope he doesn't get up and beat the snot out of me...'

He didn't. He just said 'damn, that's a shame. I suppose the truck we're in had better make a crash test, huh?' Then he looked round at the other players and grinned evilly: 'Shame I was doing a hundred in this crate, isn't it?'

Fortunately the rest of them survived with minor and serious injuries...
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paul_HArkonen
post Nov 7 2004, 02:25 PM
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now I haven't actually killed off any members of the team, yet, but they've done it for me so I haven't felt I had to.

Team's Street Sam goes running at the building they were trying to sneak towards, accross about 30 meters of open terrain, I might add, team's magician goes, "no one else is around him right?" GM "no, why?" Magician "because I'm going to hit him with a stunball, base damage deadly." He dropped, had a little dificulty countering all the Mage's extra successes. After the rest of the team picked up his unconcius body, shot it twice just to teach him a lesson, and dumped it out in the barrens both I and the Player decided it was time to make a new character, and we chalked the character up as dead.

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Tai-Pan
post Nov 7 2004, 03:20 PM
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QUOTE (DocMortand)
My group lost it's first member today, so technically it's my first kill. Of course, I've lost a lot of chars in return, so it's only fair...but I still feel a sense of regret.

My question to all is - how did you feel as a GM when you killed your first PC? I know this may be reaching way back into antiquity, and may not be an original thread, but I'm still curious.

Doc Mortand

Sadly I can Say I don't remember the feeling of the frist PC Kill... I'm still in the process of Converting D&D players and they have "I HIT IT WITH MY AXE!!!" Syndrome rather trying to avoid confrontations they charge into every situation guns blazing.... They're on their Third or Fourth party of Shadowrunners now....They keep playing mostly due to the strengths of the System.
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akarenti
post Nov 7 2004, 09:48 PM
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The first character I had die in a SR campaign was an ork decker. He was prone to doing stupid things, and then refusing to seek medical attention. He got shot in the leg, and didn't get medical care until the leg needed to be amputated. Then he died of some disease from a paracritter because he didn't go to a hospital. And those are just the highlights! All in all, I feel no remorse: I think the player did all in his power to get himself killed, and then made sure it stuck.

The players next character (a human decker) was a bit smarter.
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Sabosect
post Nov 7 2004, 10:06 PM
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I still remember my first PC kill. The idiot was standing there, insulting Lofwyr, and I hit hit with a force 6 Manabolt with Deadly damage. He promptly failed to get a success. Strangely, Lofwyr decided to let us go without incident after that...

Wait, I'm not a GM.
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nezumi
post Nov 7 2004, 10:36 PM
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I laughed for days. Killing off PCs is what makes it all worth it in the end. Just remember the one rule of GMing: You can kill off all the PCs you want, you just have to make sure they think its their fault.
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Trashman
post Nov 7 2004, 11:10 PM
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Anyone remember that most gamemaster-friendly of all RPGs: Paranoia? Where your PCs have six clones each (or was it five?) of their character and gamemastering consist mainly of coming up with the most outrageous, incongruous and whacky ways of killing them off inside 15 minutes. If you feel nice, like.
I once managed 24 clones in three minutes... ah, those were the days...

Sadly, I admit to trying to keep the buggers alive in my SR group. So much in fact, that I let them do descriptive firefights instead of throwing dice. At least with us it seems to work better the way that a gamer tells me he's getting tired of the char or doesn't feel he's playing the char 'right'. Next session the character gets a suitably dramatic end of which only the concerned gamer and me know. The others stand (or rather sit) in shock.
But haven't had them mourn their comrade's loss as yet. Probably since they know it's 'Hollywood'... ;)
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Wounded Ronin
post Nov 8 2004, 01:54 AM
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The last time I killed off a PC....

Well, the most recent incident involved a bunch of PCs taking D wounds and their players simply switching to other characters subsequently. Does that count?

One guy got sniped, and two others got directly hit by a mortar.

It was a tactical mission where the PCs and 30 soldiers in a fortress had to fight off 100 ninjas with AKs, sniper support, and mortars.

They really really botched it in terms of having terrible strategy.
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Wounded Ronin
post Nov 8 2004, 01:57 AM
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QUOTE (Trashman)
Anyone remember that most gamemaster-friendly of all RPGs: Paranoia? Where your PCs have six clones each (or was it five?) of their character and gamemastering consist mainly of coming up with the most outrageous, incongruous and whacky ways of killing them off inside 15 minutes. If you feel nice, like.
I once managed 24 clones in three minutes... ah, those were the days...

Sadly, I admit to trying to keep the buggers alive in my SR group. So much in fact, that I let them do descriptive firefights instead of throwing dice. At least with us it seems to work better the way that a gamer tells me he's getting tired of the char or doesn't feel he's playing the char 'right'. Next session the character gets a suitably dramatic end of which only the concerned gamer and me know. The others stand (or rather sit) in shock.
But haven't had them mourn their comrade's loss as yet. Probably since they know it's 'Hollywood'... ;)

I'd never be able to handle that, personally. For me, shadowrun is *all* about the tactics, especially in comparison to D20.

In D20 due to the hitpoint system you can usually afford to make a lot of mistakes. In effect, you can be lazy about tactics and still win.

In shadowrun it's a lot easier to die and a lot easier to drop your opponent with a single turn of good shooting. Therefore, tactics are emphasized for both the NPCs and the PCs.

Therefore, when I play and GM shadowrun, my first priority is always setting up a resonably interesting tactical situation for the players to play with.
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Kremlin KOA
post Nov 8 2004, 03:01 AM
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I just got paranoia XP!!!!!
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Luke Hardison
post Nov 8 2004, 04:13 AM
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I distinctly remember my first PC death ... he was shot in the back by another player. Pumped him with gel rounds on FA until he died, then smashed in his head with his rifle butt, just to make sure. Nasty night.

I gave up sheltering my players after that incident. During our next session, 3 characters died. Ironically, they were all played by the same player.

When his main character bit the dust by running a Lone Star roadblock at top speed, then getting out and trying to reach for a gun while staring down about 40 barrels ...

I told him he could go into the other room and make a new character with one of the other char's fixers as a contact, and he made a dwarven rigger. He didn't understand why flying around stuffed inside a rotocraft drone with a LMG mounted underneath would attract attention, and wound up in a Lone Star interrogation room. Then he tried to buy himself freedom ratting out his runner friends ... the whole room went silent, as he was about to try destroying EVERYONE's hard - built first characters. I told him he could try negotiating -- he didn't have the skill. The TN was 8 after situational mods, so he could default. He chose to default to his munched CHA of 1, and rolled ... a 1. His karma pool was spent from trying to not get killed while being taken into custody, so his attempts at negotiation had a catastrophic result -- he accidentally confessed on tape to several crimes. Went down for 7 charges and a combined sentence of 102 years.

He started with the oppositional defiant behavior, and made a munched speed demon elf sammy, who, upon creation, walked outside his front door and started mowing down pedestrians. I avoided dignifying his actions with roleplaying and just told him the HRT managed to respond within 5 minutes and offed him with one well placed sniper shot.

At that point, I told him to try again next session. His immature behavior had managed to take attention away from the rest of the group for 3/4 of the day, and everyone else wanted to play for a little while ...
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DocMortand
post Nov 8 2004, 04:54 AM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
The last time I killed off a PC....

Well, the most recent incident involved a bunch of PCs taking D wounds and their players simply switching to other characters subsequently. Does that count?

One guy got sniped, and two others got directly hit by a mortar.

It was a tactical mission where the PCs and 30 soldiers in a fortress had to fight off 100 ninjas with AKs, sniper support, and mortars.

They really really botched it in terms of having terrible strategy.

No that doesn't count - the runners in my game have already suffered several deadly wounds (one to within one box of over-damage truth death)

The one that died did so because of the following reasons.
1) He had the combat monster flaw.
2) He killed two members of a ganger group which had just told him they were affiliated with the mafia (this after the gangers shot up the truck they were riding in)
3) He then chased the remaining one, who was calling loudly for help (and hearing replies) and refused to break of the chase.
4) Saw five more gangers, who opened fire with Spas-22s at close range. (They saw a troll with a gore-encrusted combat axe, and the guy he had just killed at his feet)

They didn't let him live.
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Ombre
post Nov 8 2004, 09:49 AM
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My first PC death...let me see...
It was back in 1990 when we started playing SR. We started with "Mercurial" because it was the only published adventure. They all died in the Taetzel Building except the team shaman who barely escaped alive. Needless to say the run was botched...
Since then, several characters have gone beyond the pale: a decker eviscerated by a True Form Soldier in the Universal Brotherhood hive in "Missing Blood", a Rigger shot down with a SAM while trying to pass the Salish-Seattle border with a stolen Salish helicopter at the end of the "Harlequin" campaign, the surviving shaman from the first adventure in a firefight during the gang war in "Elven Fire", another group turned to ash by a dragon in a second shot at "Mercurial", a whole group decimated by the dragon Naheka in Hawaii because they prefered blasting to negotiating (I know, I know "never deal with a dragon" and all that drek...), a Racoon shaman, an adept and two chromed-to-the-max samurai in the Project Hope debacle in "Double Exposure". Recently, three magicians got busted by the cops in LA during a run in Studio City and ended up getting between 15 to 30 years in jail...

And yet, I take no pleasure in killing PCs. If I can avoid doing it, I do unless the player does something really stupid. In my opinion, PC are like heroes in a movie. Things should be scary, bloody but they should "win" (as far as winning is possible in a cyberpunk game) at the end...
I hate GMs who seem to consider their worth as a GM to depend on their bodycount...Gming should not be an ego trip...
The death of a PC should always be a sad moment....
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Stumps
post Nov 8 2004, 10:04 AM
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QUOTE (nezumi @ Nov 7 2004, 10:36 PM)
I laughed for days.  Killing off PCs is what makes it all worth it in the end.  Just remember the one rule of GMing:  You can kill off all the PCs you want, you just have to make sure they think its their fault.

That is just sick.


I've never had a campaign go long enough to see one of my players die.
And the only time I've died as a player was when I played a character who had a few too many BTL chips and fried his brain while watching the matrix. He thought he was Neo and that his contact was Morphius.
We were in a subway car and there were suits firing at us.
"Neo" decided to tell the bullets "No" and hold out his hand. (My GM patted me on the back later for keeping the character in character when I had so many options to do otherwise. The reason he was saying so was because he knew I actually wanted to let this character grow some to see what happens... ...he didn't try to kill my guy. But, by his very nature of dilusion, he killed himself.)

Well...bullets in real life SR just don't seem to listen to "No" very well.
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Blaze
post Nov 8 2004, 10:37 AM
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In three years of near-constant GMing, I've only ever killed one PC, and that was with the player's consent and foreknowledge (the game had originally been a backup to run while getting the main plotline organised- due to another player dropping out I made it the primary game and the player wanted to keep her other character). The character in question- a blind rigger- had his garage bombed by the CIA. A 150kg R6 FAE at point blank converted him into both history and geography.
That's not to say the characters get an easy time- they've been close to dying on several occasions (including getting their legs blown apart at the knee by explosive sniper-fire, shot in the gut by buckshot from a sawn-off Remington and mauled by Gabriel Hounds). I wouldn't kill a character without a good reason, but this doesn't mean I'm not going to make them think I would.

-JH.
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Arz
post Nov 8 2004, 04:06 PM
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...but how do most of you deal with the death when the PC is not being stupid?

Say the team leader cashes in on a bad roll while trying to save some people from a blast after exhausting his Karma Pool?

Personally I think this is a good opportunity to use some dying words, but often times GM's save the guy.

Does luck or lack thereof influence your decision?
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Kremlin KOA
post Nov 8 2004, 04:16 PM
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I personally allow the hand of god rule... but apart from that they die
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 8 2004, 04:17 PM
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As the Kremlin states, that's what the Hand of God is for.

~J
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Ol' Scratch
post Nov 8 2004, 04:25 PM
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Exactly. Fudging results just to let a character survive (or even worse, just to kill someone off) takes away the entire point of using any dice rolls whatsoever. Afterall, you are playing a game as much as you're roleplaying. If all you want to do is roleplay, adopt rules similar to those founds in Amber or Theatrix.
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lorthazar
post Nov 8 2004, 04:56 PM
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On a similiar vein if a player A is trying to save player B from player B's own stupidity and only dies becuase of bad die rolls. I let them invoke the Hand of God using player B's karma pool. At the same time it's merciful and harsh. Harsh on player B and merciful on player A. In order to do this however it must match 2 of these three criteria.

1: This heroic plan must be in character for Player A and must be sound (if a little dangerous)
2: Player A's death should only be becuase of spectacular bad luck on his part.
3: Player B must be in a situation that is escapable. Even if the odds are slim.


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tj333
post Nov 8 2004, 08:05 PM
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Rather sad, at what the players did.

I had made the portion of the run easy enough that they should have been able to do it without dying. But the wizard decided that he had to walk right up behind the guy with the Enfield to cast manaball on him. Turned out he was too manly to cast the spell from a safe distance.
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Feonyx
post Nov 8 2004, 10:05 PM
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Players shouldn't really die all that often with the technology in 2064. If they get deadly damage their teammates need to pull their arses out and get a DocWagon there pronto! Meanwhile teammates try to stabilise. If this fails Hand of God might trigger depending on GM.

If someone is dumb/unlucky enough to die die... as in no hope, but death you use the Hand of God. Personally I don't kill off PCs.. I tend to send them to hospital for a few months (ie. You need another character until he gets out) minus a bunch of Nuyen and a limb or two.

Feonyx
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 8 2004, 10:06 PM
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Players die or come close amazingly easily, in my experience. I guess this demonstrates that your mileage may vary quite significantly.

~J
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CircuitBoyBlue
post Nov 8 2004, 10:36 PM
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The characters in the groups I'm in tend to be too interesting to just kill off. The GM tends to let the character keep going just to see WHERE they go. Even if the character was being too blatantly stupid to live, the GM has as much fun coming up with a whacky way to let them live as some GM's appear to have coming up with whacky ways to kill PCs. Of course, terminal stupidity rarely happens in our games, because the other members of the group tend to discourage it. Also, GM's need to remember that just because they thought of something doesn't mean it's obvious, or even plausible, in the mind of the players, and so a certain amount of leeway has to be given in terms of what seems stupid enough to warrant PC death.

Not to say I haven't killed PCs. One time, I was running a short campaign based on counter-terrorist agents. The end of the first session was sort of climactic, because thus far there had been no "action," just a bunch of negotiation with other agencies and some detective work. While the team had a woman under surveillance, they found evidence that there was a bomb in her boyfriend's car, and while they really wanted him dead, they needed him alive to show them where all his friends might be. So they sent in their demolitions guy, who was someone I'd never roleplayed with before. I had decided earlier that this moment would come down to whether he cut the green wire or the red wire, and that this decision would be easy to make for anyone with a demolitions skill, and extremely dramatic for anyone without one (I didn't consider this an unfair situation to put the group in, seeing as I knew they would have a demo expert to call upon). Unfortunately, the demolitions expert makes the roll, and then declares "but the roll probably doesn't matter, because I have the color blind flaw." I figure that a demolitions expert could probably figure it out based on where the wires went instead of the color, so I was going to let him slide. But then the other players said, practically in unison, "Dude, why the #@&% did you make a demolitions expert color blind?" To which his response was "well, I figured it was the flaw that was least likely to come up in the game" BOOM.

That was a year or two ago, and was the last PC death I witnessed, thankfully. The group I play in just has a different culture than a lot of roleplaying groups, and PC death is one of those things that is as common as acne in some groups and as rare as a social life in others.
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Wounded Ronin
post Nov 9 2004, 02:50 AM
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QUOTE (DocMortand)
QUOTE (Wounded Ronin @ Nov 7 2004, 08:54 PM)
The last time I killed off a PC....

Well, the most recent incident involved a bunch of PCs taking D wounds and their players simply switching to other characters subsequently.  Does that count?

One guy got sniped, and two others got directly hit by a mortar.

It was a tactical mission where the PCs and 30 soldiers in a fortress had to fight off 100 ninjas with AKs, sniper support, and mortars.

They really really botched it in terms of having terrible strategy.

No that doesn't count - the runners in my game have already suffered several deadly wounds (one to within one box of over-damage truth death)

The one that died did so because of the following reasons.
1) He had the combat monster flaw.
2) He killed two members of a ganger group which had just told him they were affiliated with the mafia (this after the gangers shot up the truck they were riding in)
3) He then chased the remaining one, who was calling loudly for help (and hearing replies) and refused to break of the chase.
4) Saw five more gangers, who opened fire with Spas-22s at close range. (They saw a troll with a gore-encrusted combat axe, and the guy he had just killed at his feet)

They didn't let him live.

I should probably clarify. The ones who got hit by a mortar overflowed and would have died had they not Hand of Godded.
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 9 2004, 02:52 AM
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What was their tactical or strategic error?

~J
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Wounded Ronin
post Nov 9 2004, 03:05 AM
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Basically, the opposing force was occupying a rocky hill to the southeast of the walled battlement style fortification the PCs and their 30 mooks were occupying. They knew that the opposing force consisted of 100 physad ninjas with a mortar, 4 snipers, and lots of AKs.

D wound number one was one of the PCs deciding to run up on the battlements and wave his silver plated pistols repeatedly in the direction of the mountain. He got sniped out.

Then, for reasons that are far, far beyond me, two of the PCs decided to split their already small amount of soldiers. They sent one group on foot to charge directly at the mountain, and the others went out on foot in a lengthy "flanking" manuver. However, the distances were great enough that this made absolutely no sense at all. The group running directly at the mountain got shredded by assault rifle fire as they ran across the snowy plains with no cover, and the "flanking" group got annhilated after a few mortars were fired and one of them turned up a direct hit. (That was the other 2 PCs.) They ran out on foot in spite of the fact that there were many large transport snowcrawlers in the fort, which had been brought up many times, and in fact the PCs had rode in on a snowcrawler convoy. Before anyone suggests I didn't make the distance clear, I did. I supplied a map with the distances clearly marked on the map itself. Also, let me add that there was not even a real reason for them to sortie in the first place. I hadn't even said the word. I wondered why they wanted to leave the protection of the fort.

The group was salvaged because one guy who was drunk the first session was sober the second, and the first thing he immediately did at the beginning of the second session was call for backup. Then he and the other remaining PCs (all 30 of the soldiers were annilated) took a snowcrawler and drove it out the big open main gates away from the occupied hill.

They were able to escape and scoop up the bodies of the dead/D wound/pre HOG PCs and the ninjas occupied the fort. And that was that.


EDIT - and I decided to never, never run 100 ninjas again. Because I had to roll 100 physad attacks with lots of dice! :dead:
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KillaJ
post Nov 9 2004, 03:06 AM
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Edit - Late jokes are never funny... :(
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Wounded Ronin
post Nov 9 2004, 03:12 AM
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QUOTE (KillaJ)
Edit - Late jokes are never funny... :(

I thought it was funny.
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KillaJ
post Nov 9 2004, 04:49 AM
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DarkShade
post Nov 9 2004, 09:11 AM
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hmm.. I lost count of the nr of dead D&D pcs over the years , but in sr surprisingly enough I havent had many, off the top of my head.. one sam fighting 3 paracritters who thought they were illusions and decided to stand still & disbelieve <dotn remember the type but they did 9s..not even rerolls saved him>, one rigger whose van got destroyed/stepped on by a dragon with him inside, <though in the campaign it was left unspecified if he "survived">, one sniper rifle kill & one adept who ran to attack a group of well armed red sammies & found out just how far 20 m are. other than that none in SR2/3 it is easy to go down but unless the team goes down the D wound will go away after some juju & some hospital bills... actually the reason so few people die is because I run a high threat game. what kills you in sr is when you get a moderate, a serious and then another serious. if people have a high tendency to be either unharmed or right on D there are paradoxically enough few actual deaths within the pc`s.

DS
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Wounded Ronin
post Nov 9 2004, 06:22 PM
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Why did the guy make his character charge a large group of gun toting Red Samurai over 20 meters, especially if he could look down at his character sheet and mathematically calculate that his character couldn't run that far?
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D.Generate
post Nov 10 2004, 12:34 AM
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Well I'm never out to kill characters, so if one dies its usually because they did something insanely stupid. Like the last run where one of my players decided to imitate the movie Point Break and jump out of a plane after a "badguy" with out a chute in hopes he would be able to catch up over power the guy and glide safely to the ground with his chute. Lets just say I'm a firm believe in let the dice fall where they may, and boy did he fall. Then after he hit the pavement at terminal velocity he wanted to know why he didn't get to make a body check. I let him use hand of god only because of the BAD-ASS-ATUDE factor of his idea.

But to answer your question I have never felt bad about a player dying, not ever.


The New D
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 10 2004, 02:09 AM
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Always give them a Body check. When they fail to resist 9753D Physical, there will be no argument.

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Necro Tech
post Nov 10 2004, 02:33 AM
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To answer the original question, slightly surprised. To see a ganger cut down a Troll sam with an SMG was really weird. 15 body dice and not a single 4. The player just said "Well, I guess I'm not supposed to be playing this guy." Considering I have had 30-40 dead SR characters (while Gming) and if you throw in Deadlands and Warhammer probably 60-80 you might guess that I have little problems watching characters die. The vast majority of the time its because blatant character stupidity and occasioanlly bad dice roles. To not kill them is an insult to the smart players. Besides, I firmly believe that death is a teaching tool. People who give up and leave a game are often people you don't get along with (because their idea of a game is very different) but those who wise up after a few deaths play better in the long run. Besides, with no possibility of death, the whole experience isn't as exciting.
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RedmondLarry
post Nov 10 2004, 03:40 AM
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Ignore this post. Added only to make the date of the last post be in 2004.
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Diesel
post Nov 10 2004, 08:14 AM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
I wondered why they wanted to leave the protection of the fort.

Most structures aren't very well protected against mortars, especially if they're big enough to hold several vehicles and forty plus people. :indifferent:
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Kagetenshi
post Nov 10 2004, 12:42 PM
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If the structure is large enough, it can at least cause some difficulty in targeting.

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Austere Emancipa...
post Nov 10 2004, 01:09 PM
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Plus mortar rounds will probably detonate when they hit the roof, and if overhead cover is used properly the fragments won't hurt the people below too bad. If there was absolutely no cover outside of the fort, just snowy plains, then running outside was an incredibly stupid idea. (Or maybe that's exactly what Diesel meant with the pokerface-smiley.)

Assuming the fort would have to be defended no matter what, no back up present, and the enemy has only one mortar, they could've driven the snowcrawlers outside and used them and anything else present to create some cover from the most likely direction of attack. Further fortify the main structure(s), maintain two lines of defense (one outside, one inside) until it's clear the enemy will get too close, pull everyone inside and fight room to room.

I can't help wondering just what the fuck the PCs were thinking charging a 3x greater group of more skilled and better armed enemies who are in a good defensive position when they could just wait for them to come out into the open.

As for the actual topic, can't remember, it must have been around 7-9 years ago when we were playing AD&D 2E. I probably didn't feel a thing. Nowadays, if the death of the PC is just bad luck I might feel a bit bad for a moment. If the death is the logical consequence of stupid shit the PC has done, it feels good.

This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Nov 10 2004, 01:10 PM
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Fonitrus
post Nov 10 2004, 03:05 PM
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:rotfl:
I still laugh at this when I remember it.
:grinbig:

As a GM the first time I lost a player I actually could not stop laughing at the way he died and the whole situation.
However the I felt bad for allowing him to die in such a way because the group was kinda starting to work together as a hmm...i would not call them a team but say group of disorganized individuals trying to get their $hit together.

The death occured as unexpected action was triggered by my player.
A troll magician with cybergogles and pistols walking in a forest with his 3 buddies, hardcore army specialist with a Ghalil rifle with 10RC, a woman street sam with katana and a colt (played by a male player), and a dude with a mask which we called "The Masked Magician" (but he was mundane) with 3RC on a auto shotgun..

So they are on their way to find this shaman dude deep in the forest which will lead them to further clues for their mission.

So all walking in a forest. I describe the environment to them. Birds chirping, leaves rustling under neath them, looks like overcast , might rain later.

Then the Troll Player writes something on a piece of paper and tells me i want to play this 'card' when you think the session is getting borring. I read the paper and it says "i sneak arround a tree and jump saying "BOO"" like a little kid...

when i read that i figured ok I will entertain his stupidity since all the other dudes had inteligence of 6 so hitting perception would not be a problem.

well in order to make it all look like a surprise i made them all roll stealth as if something was about to happen maybe they get ambushged and such. I Also threw in random noises in the near distance.
Anyway the troll hits a stealth of like 7 or 8 im not sure the rest...it didint matter..
So I say roll perception and the female and the army dude hit several 8+ BUT the combat-wombat (aka auto-shotgun) dude failed to get any successes and i mean he rolled 3 ones and 2 and 2 and 3. (nothing above 3)

I then describe to him "You see a big ceature overhadowing you and growling at you, you cannot clearly make out the sound but its coming at you"..

before i describe to the others what tey actually see i demand a reaction roll
which the troll failed but other 3 succeeded.

Then i demand initiative roll which i was hoping the street samand the military dude will get highest and act againt the combat-wombat (move his gun or something)... but he beats all others in initiative...Now im scared becasue as I start describing to the other 2 players what their several successe on perception meant the combat-wombat dude says "im pulling the trigger"..
The other 2 playes use their free actions to say "stop" or some such but he didint listen and the troll failed his demage resistance because the combat-wombat dude threw in all allowed combat pool and when you have 14 dice against target number 4 for short range and -2 for smartlink...nothing survives...

after that we paused the session cause the rest of us were getting pissed laughing our asses off... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

:::edit:::
ps. the troll had already 0/0 karma because he used it to burn for successes on previous acts of stupidity
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DarkShade
post Nov 10 2004, 03:23 PM
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QUOTE (Wounded Ronin)
Why did the guy make his character charge a large group of gun toting Red Samurai over 20 meters, especially if he could look down at his character sheet and mathematically calculate that his character couldn't run that far?

the guy was an adept & had athletics, and yes he could have made 20 m easily , he just figured that modifiers for low light, the fact he was running towards them and their own modifiers for being running towards him would make them miss.. mathematically speaking it was a sound gamble, their tn was imho ridiculously high around 10 or so but so says the book & I dont change stuff mid-game... they rolled way above average 10+.. & he rolled a few poor dodges *shrug*. it made a good object lesson in tactics..what not to do.
The adept was in a street corner, option b would have been seeking cover or getting into the armor 6 van the rigger had parked 5 m away.. he made the wrong choice..
sidenote: hmm.. this *MIGHT* have worked if the rigger had used suppression fire, or the mage had used invis... they werent a tight team yet.

DS
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JongWK
post Nov 12 2004, 01:06 PM
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Well, this isn't Paranoia, so I don't go around killing characters just for fun. Usually. :P
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Catsnightmare
post Nov 12 2004, 01:54 PM
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QUOTE (Azrael)
Handed the bloke a slice of pizza, fresh glass of coke and said:

"Did you really think it was a good idea to fire an panther assault cannon into an LPG storage faciliity?"

If he honest-to-ghost did that, then why isn't the rest of the team and the surrounding 7+ city blocks all dead.
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mintcar
post Nov 13 2004, 02:46 PM
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I can´t remember the first time a character died while I was GM. But I do remember that when we where like 10 years old and started playing for real there was tears flowing when stuff like that happened. The first character of mine that died I do remember. I was playing with a class mate that usually played with some older guys. He was being totally unfair. Me and my friends characters where measly tramps with improvised weapons and his older friends were near gods with technological weaponry. It was a swedish game not unlike Gamma World. My character was a mutated gorilla with scales. We got to this underground lab. and we spread out to check it out. Then some robot knocked me out from behind. No fight or anything. And the poor gorilla met a sadistic and humiliating end in some labratory after that. It was harsh times to be sure. When I started to GM myself I was a lot nicer. I think? :please:
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Enigma
post Nov 16 2004, 12:15 AM
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If some work went into the character, I'm fine with saving them in various ways - fast EMT response, doctor on the scene, "you pass out and wake up in some sort of ritual magic circle with no clothes on and your testicles painted blue", you know, the usual stuff. Yes they take a hit (cash wise, reputation wise, loss-of-gear wise or something) but at least they're alive.

If they do something stupid, Hand of God exists. This means each character gets a one free pass on a stupid death.

If the character was made using the black sticky bits of their twisted little brains then they're dead and I don't care. The type of characters I'm referring to are, for example (when generating a background):

"Umm, yeah, well I've got Ninjitsu and, yeah, I like knives. Hey, let's all play ninjas, that'll be so COOOOOL. We can be from the same bad-ass school and have tatoos and stuff. Do we really need a stealth skill to play Ninjas?, because I can spend those points so much better on Heavy Weapons and Launch Weapons and other things."

or ...

"so, he's got assault rifles because I just bought CC and he usually carries that MGL-6 thing with like thirty magazines of grenades and so on. And, he always carries four knives, even in the shower and has two backup pistols JUST IN CASE and also silencers and so on. And I managed to get his initiative up to an average roll of 400. And, I've bought a car and it's got forty points of concealed armour but you can't see it because it's concealed and I painted the car black. And, he has pretty much this entire column of gear here, and all of those, and sixty of these things because they're cool, and whatever the coolest sniper rifle is. Oh yeah, character background, umm, he's ex-military and I'll figure out the rest later."

or ...

"yeah, he's from the streets and he like, ruled some gangs and stuff, and then he got approached by the yakuza and worked for them for a bit and he was so damn good they put cyberware in him and then the yakuza clan, like every single one of them, got killed by mysterious ninja assassins from japan so now I'm a runner and can I take four yakuza oyabuns as contacts because I've written it into my background?"

or ...

"where's that random generator thingy from CP2020? OK, I'm a male human causican guy who is (d10 sound) 27, (d10 sound) from a corporate background but am now (d10 sound) hunted by (d10 sound) Arasaka. No, wait, what game are we playing again?"

or my personal favourite ...

"he was in the military in this special ops group, and he was a gunnery sergeant because they're the COOL rank, and then he left the military but the military thinks he's dead and now he's a shadowrunner. What do you mean there needs to be more? Oh, right, you want the battalion name? Umm, the panthers, no wait, the vipers, no wait, the scorpions, no wait, the cougars, no wait, the roughnecks. Where are you going? If you leave before the game starts, does that mean I get karma to spend for next time?"
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DarkShade
post Nov 16 2004, 09:41 AM
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heh, with my old GM we always meant to buy an old fashioned ink stamp/seal, in huge gothic letters with the words S A D , to stamp it on precisely that kind of backgrounds.. or on the head of the player submitting them.. we never got around to it though :P


-note: our players werent that bad but sometimes we gm`ed in conventions and the stuff you see there sometimes.. * shiver* ..

DS
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Cable
post Nov 16 2004, 01:54 PM
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"There are two types of PCs. Those that are dead, and those that will be."
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Lindt
post Nov 16 2004, 03:07 PM
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Oddly I have only KILLED one PC. And that was scripted. His brother turned up (the brother was a compeating J) basicly had a short conversation with him, and stuffed a Scorp into his back.
I did on one session dole out some 9 Deadly wounds. Blasted shamens healing everyone...but then force 8 treats do tend to do that when it has a totem bonus.
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Canid13
post Jan 5 2005, 03:11 PM
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My policy on stupid actions from players is simple - Stupidity Kills. Though if the stupid act is funny and not too stupid I usually allow a reasonable chance of survival. However for the most part, my players do that all by themselves usually by coming up with plans which I hadn't thought of and completely bypassing the bad guys :o)

I've come close to killing a player once and one kinda died by it wasn't my fault.

The 'close call' was an extraction from a corp facility. The target was in a subteranean lab so the PC's absail down the lift cables and get out into the foyer by the lab. The team decker is running overwatch and the weapon specialist is guarding the cables to the lab building and the decker (in a building across the street). The decker misses one of the slaves for the cameras and so doesn't warn the team about a guard in med sec armour with a burst firing heavy pistol. Failed surprise tests and two simple actions later, the sam is on the floor and into overflow. The team had gotten the target and were on the way out when this happened, so the cat shaman high tails it up the lift shaft.

Meanwhile the weapon specialist is on his way over to rescue his chummer. He passes the cat shaman, who still keeps high tailing. He drops down the lift shaft like a stone and manages to pull the sammy back up with him. The cat shaman destroys the stealth line just as the two get back then stabilises the sammy just as the last box of overflow gets filled in. I allowed the spell to work - but invoked Hand of God and didn't make the shaman fall down through drain.

The one that wasn't my fault was really odd. Couple of my players couldn't make the session, including the rigger, but I decided to run the courier mission I'd written anyway since I had too for the timeline to work out right. So, the weapon specialist drives the car and a new char (regular player wanting to try something different - implant intolerant drifter with 3 skills, athletics, bike and shotgun, and an aspiration to be a combat biker) rides the bike (included that for the new char).

Anyway, to cut a long story, the team gets attacked so it turns into a running firefight down the interstate. The team is in a van with a LMG on a ring mount - the new PC dwarf weapon specialist is using that, the human weapon specialist is driving and my wolf is shooting out the back. However the biker with no VCR has split off and is tailed by an NPC biker with VCR, so tries to lose the tail in some woods. The NPC makes an impossible perception test (TN 14 or something) and reacquires the PC - at which point the players says "I stop and get off my bike and wait for him to kill me."

I gave the player ample opportunity to survive, even offered to send a pair of spirits to bring the body back for the shaman to heal but the player didn't want too. I only had to put up with sulking for a couple of days on that one.

Still, each one has taught me something - like the combat rules for vehicles are very harsh on non-riggers and that burst firing heavy pistols are tres nasty :o)

To answer the question though, I did feel bad about the biker since it was a no-win situation for the PC. The sammy who couldn't stage a pair of 12S with 7 points of armour I didn't - sometimes the fates just ain't with you.
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Jrayjoker
post Jan 5 2005, 03:36 PM
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Yeah, the concensus should be, "Stupidity Kills." I tend to give my folks some slack if they are new to the system, or I didn't discuss expectations with the players.

However, when I am dealing with someone who refuses to find cover facing two trolls in milspec armor on higher ground with LMGs and a locked gate at his back, the PC typpically dies. Do I feel bad, maybe....
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Canid13
post Jan 5 2005, 03:46 PM
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QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
However, when I am dealing with someone who refuses to find cover facing two trolls in milspec armor on higher ground with LMGs and a locked gate at his back, the PC typpically dies. Do I feel bad, maybe....

If you do then you're a better man than I, because in that situation the gloves come off and I try to kill - that's nor stupidity that's suicide by troll :o)
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Jrayjoker
post Jan 5 2005, 04:24 PM
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Yeah, it turned into that. And I quote,

Him: "I pull out my silenced predator and shoot the one on the left."
Me: "The one with gel rounds because you don't like to kill?"
Him: "Yeah.....oh."
Me: "Say G'night Gracie"
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Canid13
post Jan 5 2005, 05:02 PM
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ROFLMAO
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Traks
post Jan 5 2005, 05:29 PM
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Yup, nice stories. My players usually kill themselves. But I do enjoy a little their deaths :) I do not kill players if they haven't done stupid things though.
There are too countless PC's that have seen death to remember all.

One of stupidest PC death's: "I find ghoul and let him bite me. You know, I will be stronger and like, cool"
Me: "You found one. Deeply in sewers"
He: "Cool, I force his teeth into my arm"
Me: "You wake up. It's 9.00 and you think you should go to certain building. Why, you don't remember."
He: "Oh yes, job. I put on a hat and go. Rolls hide, defaulting". And rolls really crappily.
Me: "You come in, and hear people screaming It's a ghoul, kill that monster!"

So he died, because he worked in security firm and people tend to have guns there :)
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U_Fester
post Jan 5 2005, 07:15 PM
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I couldnt' help but feel like Satan...
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TeOdio
post Jan 5 2005, 10:04 PM
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I whacked a PC my first time running a game. My buddy took the elven combat mage archtype out of 1st edition. He may have modified it, but all I remember was the fact he had 1 body. Even with the old armor rules (automatic successes), the Ares Predator round I cored him out with was pretty devastating. The rest of the pc's decided to chuck his body out of the high rise office they were in to create a "diversion". I personally feel that Shadowrun should be run with a dystopian flair. The PC's really are the underdogs in the grand scheme of things. They should have their victories, but the threat of death/capture/possession/subversion should always hang over their heads. :nuyen:
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Daishi
post Jan 7 2005, 11:34 AM
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I think I asked which back-up character he planned on using next. Everybody here has a character stable, and we tend to play high lethality games. I'm trying to develop a bit more into storylines (not my strong suit, but I'm working on it) and sudden infantry death syndrome seems to derail for the most part, so I'm trying to tone down lethality without reducing the sense of danger. Of course during a recent session the team liked to derail that by assaulting the base from behind. Not too bad an idea on the surface except that the rear of the base is a 300m cliff face. So they're going to climb it. In the rain. With one set of climbing gear for six guys. One man was cliff pizza. The same one who was wounded during the HALO jump into mountain jungle. At night. Through the rain. *sigh*

It was damn cool that most of them survived to pull it off, though.
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DocMortand
post Jan 8 2005, 02:56 AM
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QUOTE (Daishi)
...sudden infantry death syndrome seems to derail for the most part...

Sudden Infantry Death Syndrome... :grinbig: niiiice

Of course, I really shouldn't talk - I'm still trying to find a way to give my runners a less lethal atmosphere while still keeping it challenging. Kill count is 2 now...nearly 3...and approximately 1-2 deadly wounds taken per game.

Mrr...
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FrostyNSO
post Jan 8 2005, 07:57 PM
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I've killed more PC's than I can count.

After the first. A troll gunbunny killed by a little girl's bodyguard. I thought "Hmmm, maybe I should make the opposition a little lighter."

We lost 5 last session. 2 bit it while HALO jumping into the Containment Zone, insisting that they would get enough successes to survive opening their chutes below the minimum safe altitude. The other 3 died when one of the characters (henceforth known as "The Chicago Butcher") cut loose the suppressive fire with a vehicle-mounted .50 cal at a temporary medical clinic (tent-city style).
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DocMortand
post Jan 9 2005, 11:52 PM
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What year are you playing in? Is Chicago still Bug City in your campaign? I know I started my campaign in mid-'58, so the Containment Zone was no more, altho Chicago was still a semi-wasteland from all the local warlords.

Made me cry, the whole Bug City thing...I was born and grew up in Chicago, and still shake my head that FanPro finally decided to recreate the ancient Chicago Cubs in SOTA64 as an expansion team. Bleh. As if the Cubs would go bankrupt or move with the guy who owns the Chicago Tribune owning them nowadays....

Heh...in my last game, another char came within one initiative pass of dying. He survived barely...and got a payday of 673K nuyen each(massive hijack of Renraku SOTA drone parts and they got away with it!)

Of course, the Renraku Shutdown looms on the horizon, and I have plans *muahah*
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FrostyNSO
post Jan 10 2005, 08:30 AM
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We don't really set a "year". Most GM's I'm sure would sneer at this, but in our game it is both 2050 and 2065, and at the same time is neither. We started in 2060 and I think it's rolled into 2063 just now. The containment zone is still up (because we said it was), warlords still run the place, and it's pretty well demolished. The Arcology is still shut down, and Ghostwalker hasn't demolished Denver.

Now that I think of it, none of it really matters. We have an experienced group (lowest member pushing 100 karma), but I've been so successful at keeping them busy that they're not really interested in a lot of that stuff. We're 'street-level' in good part, but the PC's have the connections to get bigger if they want. They don't want to though, because they're trying not to draw too much attention to themselves. Unbeknownst to them, they're actually becoming heavy hitters on the streets, and starting to affect more people than they know.
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Canid13
post Jan 10 2005, 04:35 PM
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In my campaign, none of the Harlequin stuff has happened yet although we know about immortal elves. The CZ still exists (I didn't know it wasn't to be honest), and the Arc is opened now. Ghostwalker is about and the Big D is dead :o(

Kinda mixed up, but it's only 2064.... we've a few more decades to go yet :o)
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DocMortand
post Jan 10 2005, 08:23 PM
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QUOTE (FrostyNSO)
We don't really set a "year". Most GM's I'm sure would sneer at this, but in our game it is both 2050 and 2065, and at the same time is neither. We started in 2060 and I think it's rolled into 2063 just now. The containment zone is still up (because we said it was), warlords still run the place, and it's pretty well demolished. The Arcology is still shut down, and Ghostwalker hasn't demolished Denver.

Now that I think of it, none of it really matters. We have an experienced group (lowest member pushing 100 karma), but I've been so successful at keeping them busy that they're not really interested in a lot of that stuff. We're 'street-level' in good part, but the PC's have the connections to get bigger if they want. They don't want to though, because they're trying not to draw too much attention to themselves. Unbeknownst to them, they're actually becoming heavy hitters on the streets, and starting to affect more people than they know.

Hey, I wouldn't sneer at you. JUst because there is a canon timeline does not mean you have to stick with it. I know in my campaign, the way things are shaping up I may be forced to deviate from the timeline myself, and if you want to pick and choose what events are happening, that's perfectly fine!

Heh...your campiagn sounds interesting to me actually. *snif* poor chicago...

The reason I'm sticking closer to the timeline is because my group seems to like doing high profile runs...not street-level. So they are getting into the movers and shakers of society (and all the pitfalls therein). Granted, they're not nearly as experienced as your group (40-50 karma or so), so this may be dangerous...
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Wounded Ronin
post Jan 11 2005, 06:13 PM
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A lot of these campaigns sound really colorful and interesting. Not like mine; sniffle. :D
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Traks
post Jan 11 2005, 06:24 PM
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Well then, be a GM and show them what a good campaign means.
I mean, I can say that everything sucks and be a freakin pessimist or I can work and let things to change, usually for better.
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Striker
post Jan 12 2005, 12:10 PM
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QUOTE (Enigma)
*snip*

Enigma...let me just tell you, I feel your pain.

Anyway...here's my GMing guidelines:
  • If it's not the player's fault, I usually let them live. Getting them stabilized, having a doctor in the vicinity, hand-of-god if all else fails. I try not to let any PC fall to simple bad luck.
  • If it's due to bad tactics (like underestimating the opposition or blowing your cover on a stealth job) or crazy stunts, I give no freebies but allow hand-of-god.
  • If it's due to blatant and obvious stupidity, like the infamous 'frontal charge without cover while blowing all combat pool on the first attack' maneuver...that character is toast. Hand of god? God doesn't want to touch you, creep. God hates you.
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GaiasWrath8
post Jun 16 2005, 07:44 PM
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Oh I have to tell my story here.

My first game of Shadowrun was being run by this guy named Ryan, he was a great GM. His best friend was a crazy nut named Nathean.

Nathean killed my first character with in 5 hours of play. Said he did not trust me and I might have been working for some corp. I had no clue how to play yet so it was not much fun.

Next game I came in, within two hours he shot me in the back of the head.

Next game, I came in with a area effect craineal bomb. :) He might have killed me, but I took him and another player out with me. :)

After that he stopped killing me.
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Jrayjoker
post Jun 16 2005, 08:02 PM
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That guy sounds like a real punk. Or was it fun for you? :D
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frostPDP
post Jun 16 2005, 11:04 PM
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The definition of Irony: Night-time, practically full cover (poking one's head out to get a lookat a citymaster), you do the TN math yourself. Its upwards of 10.

Rapid successes on a spot check.

So to hit with the Citymaster's LMG, it had to roll a, what, 16? The GM scored about 6 successes.

My character's damage? Probably upwards of 20D. The choice was easy - Roll for it or lose an eye.

So Dragon now has an eyepatch and is looking for a medical contact good enough to get him a cloned eye. (He's a mage. He was looking to get LOS on the citymaster to hit it. From a block away.)
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Supercilious
post Jun 17 2005, 02:20 AM
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I laugh, I enjoy killing my PC's more than anything else in the game. My current storyline will have them all killed by mission 5, just because I want them to fear Knight Errant more than they do (They killed a lone KE scout, so now they think they are super badass. That campaign ended and we are in a new one, so I intend to have them walk into a KE setup as ares tests out a new team of KE supersoldier badasses).

The fools think they will survive.
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fistandantilus4....
post Jun 17 2005, 03:27 AM
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It really depends on the circumstance. I've ran games wit hcharacters that were such a pain, it was a relief o put them six feet under. Others I've felet very bad about. We make a point to all go outside and solemnly burn the character sheet if the character can't come back.

Except for the death of one character, in the game of which I was actaully a player. It was a mage that had consistently managed to fireball OUR group. Happened three or four times. We alsmot did it ourselves until something ate him. We burned it out side, then everyeone took their turn going back out to piss on the ashes.

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Vaevictis
post Jun 17 2005, 03:40 AM
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If your characters die in the normal progress of the story, that means that they weren't smart enough. Take it as a lesson in appropriate caution. If you die, you either had poor strategy or poor preparation, or failed to say, "Man, I'm not getting paid enough for this."

I learned this waaay back in 1992 when my AD&D 9th level elf assassin walked towards a red dragon instead of the other way. That bugger toasted me like a marshmellow. Lesson learned: Run from dragons.

Almost had a similar example recently -- my mage was walking in the Canadian forest with his group, investigating a helicopter crash site when a big paranormal bear of some kind whipped out of the snow and damn near killed me. I figured I would at least get a perception test to see him, as I had explicitly stated I was patrolling with my assault rifle at the ready, and he was in the goddamn snow after all -- but nope. Just whacked. Managed to stage it down. Previous run, damn near got offed by a katana wielding elf. Lesson learned: Mages should always walk around with a sustaining focus and a 10-success improved invisibility active unless they've got a very good reason not to.

But there you go, sometimes you learn the lesson, sometimes you don't. But dying (or coming close) teaches you something fierce.
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Capt. Dave
post Jun 17 2005, 04:44 AM
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QUOTE (Vaevictis)
If your characters die in the normal progress of the story, that means that they weren't smart enough.

Not true. I had a PC die in a game I was running due to another PC jumping the gun and attacking a group of unknown enemies who had staked out the meeting spot the runners were dropping off the target of an extraction. The "bad guys" already had weapons drawn, with proper vision mods for the low-light conditions, as well as a mage. The situation was not good, especially since the baddies were ready to fight, and outnumbered the PCs.

So a PC whips out his AK,to the surprise of the other players, and initiative is rolled. Mage, with +3d6 Init (spell) goes first, unfortunately, and after a fairly long firefight, a character who would have never acted so impulsively got gunned down.
Her body was then promptly looted by the trigger-happy PC.

The worst thing is, this was a player who has been playing for years, whose character was killed by a one-time player, with a one-shot character. An albino dwarf with ruthenium dermal sheathing and fangs, to be precise.

Idiot teammates can get you killed, too.
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Critias
post Jun 17 2005, 05:36 AM
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QUOTE (Supercilious)
I laugh, I enjoy killing my PC's more than anything else in the game.

Wow, so you're a bully, huh? That's cool. When you've got the entire world to throw at your hapless players, it's easy to be a tough guy.

Why do people show up to your games, if you like killing them so much, and do it so quickly? Do they just, I dunno, really like character creation or something?
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Qillin
post Jun 17 2005, 05:45 AM
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the worst pc death by a gm in my groups games (I'm not the gm btw) the gm and myself were hiding out in a vacant house in the bad part of the city waiting for another member who was trying to get the news copter off him. when he got to the place where we were he knocked. identified himself and we asked if he was alone. he said yes. being in the bad part of town we still has our guns out. the gm had a AR and i have a HP. we pushed open the door and the guy coming in said " I'm going to commando roll in let me roll athletics" and rolls in the gm's character panic's and fires a burst into him. he takes a s+3 and my character fires 2 shots and kills him with a lot of overflow. the gm's character we a doc and had a vary good med skill and we had a vary good med kit on hand but he still died.

We had played these characters for over 6th months and had a good 150-250 total karma earned and well over 2 mil :nuyen: earned. it was a sad day but what could we do? he did the stupidest thing we could think of in that situation.

hehe the rest of the group kind of retired after a run or 2 more and we all started new characters. it one thing if you do something dumb like running into a room with 6 guards with shotguns or just bad planing and someone gets kills by npc's but to roll in on you friends and die by there hands one being the gm's pc character after a long history it was rough
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fistandantilus4....
post Jun 17 2005, 05:45 AM
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QUOTE (Capt. Dave)
The worst thing is, this was a player who has been playing for years, whose character was killed by a one-time player, with a one-shot character. An albino dwarf with ruthenium dermal sheathing and fangs, to be precise.


That's just wrong. If I was runnning that one, I would've had you stabelize automatically. Then give you the fun of tracking down senior' trigger-happy.

2 karma for you
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mfb
post Jun 17 2005, 07:08 AM
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QUOTE (supercilious)
I laugh, I enjoy killing my PC's more than anything else in the game.

that's, uh, a real accomplishment, there. killing characters in a game where you control all the variables? that's what the kids call skill.
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DocMortand
post Jun 17 2005, 08:22 AM
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Actually recently I had my first PK in my game - it's amazing how helpless you feel when a new guy comes into the game and gets whacked after one word.

To set the stage: Renraku Arcology shutdown happened 12 hours ago. Everybody has had little or no sleep, gotten seperated, and now half the group is in a cubicle maze. After dueling with some controlled Red Samurai (fairly easy, they were low on the totem pole) the new guy says "Hello?" to the group from behind a desk. The combat monster troll (who admitted afterwards he was playing it wrong) then proceeded to use a claymore on the unfortunate soul, and carved him into two pieces.

I just sat there in shock - I'm not the type of GM to foster inter-party kills myself. So I just said "Okay, not much I can do. You now have a twin brother who is also in the cubicle maze - your brother just was killed and you don't know his fate. Work from there."

Things worked out well, fortunately...but still was kinda bizarre. We now joke about how you never should say "Hello?" when introducting yourself in stressful situations...
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Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*
post Jun 17 2005, 08:28 AM
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Guests






Saw something like that happen once. Starting PC had to invoke Hand of God in the first pass of the first combat encounter he ever saw, and then proceeded to get killed in the second encounter. Shame.
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mfb
post Jun 17 2005, 08:47 AM
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haha, yeah. poor guy. "welcome to SL, buddy!"
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Critias
post Jun 17 2005, 09:00 AM
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Heehee.
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Akai Sokata
post Jun 17 2005, 12:16 PM
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ah yes my fist Pc kill. I remember it well. It was the day after the my first run with a enemy that caused more headachs for my Pc's then anoying ork kid that follows them around. Lamagra, a fledgling vampric dragon. we defeated him with alittle persperation...and a hole army of dead Npc's. the next day lacolith steps out of his strong hold and Punk Lamagra disciple geeks him with a sadler tmp.

deep down I felt bad for this it was my buddys first char, he felt so good about slaying the dragon, then geeked by a punk with ex rounds in a peice a drek smug. it was kind of a shame. but in the shadows its here today gone tommorow right
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Jrayjoker
post Jun 17 2005, 01:20 PM
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QUOTE (Qillin)
the worst pc death by a gm in my groups games (I'm not the gm btw) the gm and myself were hiding out in a vacant house in the bad part of the city waiting for another member who was trying to get the news copter off him. when he got to the place where we were he knocked. identified himself and we asked if he was alone. he said yes. being in the bad part of town we still has our guns out. the gm had a AR and i have a HP. we pushed open the door and the guy coming in said " I'm going to commando roll in let me roll athletics" and rolls in the gm's character panic's and fires a burst into him. he takes a s+3 and my character fires 2 shots and kills him with a lot of overflow. the gm's character we a doc and had a vary good med skill and we had a vary good med kit on hand but he still died.

I still say you should have gotten perception tests to notice he was alone and not shoot. Did both PCs have reflex triggers?
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nezumi
post Jun 17 2005, 02:17 PM
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I can't say I enjoy killing PCs, but I like knowing it can happen. I generally believe in letting the dice lay where they fall, with two exceptions. I want the story to progress, so if it's something little, like noticing a clue that they can't manage without, I'll nudge the dice, and with new characters doing something dumb, I give them their one chance to avoid death (as in, they stabilize and the gunner moves on to the next target).

Unfortunately, I can be a bit of a patsy when it comes to the enemy's tactics, since it isn't always clear what the best route is, and subconsciously I DO want the good guys to win. *sigh* But that's why most of my plots are more than just point and shoot games.
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fistandantilus4....
post Jun 17 2005, 02:45 PM
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I think a mortality rate is important in a game. If no one ever buys it.... or at least comes very close sometimes, well, no really believes it will happen.

Good example, had a group of players turn on their employer once (Axtechnology), and work for the opposition instead (rebels). Characters got back to Seattle ok. A month later, the troll mercenary character is in his favorite ar , when a pair of human and elf gilettes come in, and move straight for him. Well, he mopped the floor with them, but beat feet when he saw the doc wagon bracelets. Next few moments went like this:

Player:"I go out the front door, and get on my bike."

GM (that's me :D )"Resist 16D, half ballistic "

pl: "uhh.. ok *rolls*... nope!"

GM" ok *rolls more dice* resist it again"

pl : "*rolls* nope!"

GM" ok, that's 20 boxes of damage"

pl: "Huh? you were serious!?"

GM: "Yup, sniper across he street with a Barret 121. Should have gone out the back chummer. "

The player was smart enough to know who sent them though. Luckily, he was a troll with a 13 body, and he had Doc Wagon too, and they were already on the way, so he pulled through (barely). A good lesson though.
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Jrayjoker
post Jun 17 2005, 02:48 PM
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That I can see. But he only came close....
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The Stainless St...
post Jun 17 2005, 03:01 PM
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I honestly don't remember the exact details of the first time my PC's died, but I do remember that for some reason they hired themselves out as mercs, and were assigned shock-troop duty on the front lines of a major land battle in some eastern-European hellhole....

The most recent PC death in my game: "SGB" is a cousin to a Finnegan family lieutenant, and he gets himself arrested for mugging some random Joe Citizen on the street. While in the hospital (he was badly injured during the arrest), he offers to turn state's evidence against his cousin and the whole Finnegan Family in exchange for immunity. So Lone Star implants a ton of surveilance headware in him and turns him loose. The first thing he does is go to Finnegan HQ and writes a note to Uncle Al detailing the whole thing. Al directs him to an elevator ride up to see Rowena, and on this elevator ride he is gassed. So long SGB, it was good knowing ya.
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fistandantilus4....
post Jun 17 2005, 03:47 PM
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QUOTE (Jrayjoker)
That I can see. But he only came close....

They thought he was dead. 2 sniper rounds to the chest!?

Hell, we both thought he was dead, until we remembered body overflow

and there have been a few HOG's, but that was the best illustration of reminding them of their mortality. And believe me, they took it to heart well
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Arz
post Jun 17 2005, 03:48 PM
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Most of the time my players die because of dumb luck. When I roll for firearms I notice a 90% success ratio but when I roll for resistance I'll see a 10% ratio. This often results in a 75% kill ratio on both sides within 2 rounds. So I fudge quite a few rolls. I agree that killing characters outside of major stupidity or dramatics is bad form. Especially when a good maiming is much more character building. :P
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Supercilious
post Jun 17 2005, 04:02 PM
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QUOTE (Supercilious)
I laugh, I enjoy killing my PC's more than anything else in the game.


QUOTE (Critias)
Wow, so you're a bully, huh? That's cool. When you've got the entire world to throw at your hapless players, it's easy to be a tough guy.

Why do people show up to your games, if you like killing them so much, and do it so quickly? Do they just, I dunno, really like character creation or something?


QUOTE (mfb)
that's, uh, a real accomplishment, there. killing characters in a game where you control all the variables? that's what the kids call skill.


---

I was unclear in how my game is played, we do not play a particularly story heavy game, it is a rotating GM competition. (Which is not to say that we do not appreciate a nice story-driven campaign, it is just not the current style of our game)

Each GM runs one session then switches, the acting one-session GM writes or has written out one "mission." If the players can complete the mission, they win. If the players fail at the mission and die/pull out, the GM wins, our average run consists of a lot of planning to beat the traps that the GM has put into the mission, and a lot of leg work to find out what those traps are. If a mission was 100% unbeatable then yes it would be dumb, but overcoming a fixed challenge is a lot of fun.
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tisoz
post Jun 17 2005, 09:10 PM
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First PC deaths for me occurred during the module Dreamchipper, in the bar when "Junior" Martelli decides to kill the party. The party is sitting there armed with nothing more than pistols and melee weapons and Junior comes in with a couple buddies armed with SMGs, shotguns, and grenades.

After the initial barrage when the team has taken cover behind some overturned tables, they get opened up on from behind by three guys with ARs. Total party kill in the first game ever played. :(

Also learned about the value of armor a little earlier in the game.

Did make new characters and tackled Dreamchipper again. Used a bit of metagame knowledge, figuring if the orks from the backroom were able to get Assault Rifles in then the party should be able to get at least some SMGs and grenades past security. The party gave up their obvious ARs and PAC (before we realized how availability worked) along with a discreet bribe.

A bit off topic, but I kind of miss the tone of the early books. Like how Juniors motorcycle had AR(s) permanently mounted. Seems like it was a wilder and woolier setting back then as compared to the current setting that closely mirrors todays attitudes toward openly carrying weapons in public. It always hit me as a GM crutch to limit the lethality of weapons people could tote around. I could easily see a dark future where carry laws more closely resembled the old west, especially with the early game descriptions of how everyone carried weapons and wore armor. Oh well, it ain't to be.
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U_Fester
post Jun 18 2005, 12:09 AM
Post #100


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ummm..... ouch :eek:
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