 The Box O' Truth, An interesting study in shot penetration |
 Jan 25 2005, 01:58 AM
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#1
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Creating a god with his own hands  Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 30-September 02 From: 0:0:0:0:0:0:0:1 Member No.: 3,364  |
The Box O' Truth
An amatuer, but it's still interesting. I find the last part, Locks O' Truth, the most informative. |
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Jan 25 2005, 06:49 AM
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#2
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The site is interesting, first because looking at people shooting at stuff is fun, second because some of those results were somewhat interesting for me (having not fired a wide range of firearms at different items). Still, it shines through that the guy really doesn't know that much about the physics behind what's going on. For example:
I'd have thunk it. The lower velocity (9mm, .45 ACP) pistol JHPs penetrated well, because the composition of the drywall caused the rounds not to expand. The .357 Magnum hit the wall fast enough to deform regardless. This is very much a good thing, because it means it will also expand properly for example when it hits a human through heavy clothing, while certain JHP designs for lower velocity handguns might not. They might have considered it a good thing themselves, but that was overridden by the feeling of surprise. Try the same with FMJs for the .45 ACP, 9x19mm and the .357 Magnum (if you can find any) and the results will be the opposite.
Whoever's been saying that buckshot over-penetrate compared to common loads with the other weapons mentioned there needs to get his head checked. Of course a .30" 40gr lead ball traveling at ~1300fps won't penetrate better than a .355" 120+gr jacketed lead bullet traveling at ~1250fps, especially when the latter fails to expand at all. The results with the slug were mildly surprising to me, but they might not have been if The Box had been tested with a wider range of deforming handgun rounds first. It certainly penetrated a lot more walls than an expanding .357 Magnum, although the .357 (likely) expanded a lot more also.
In all fairness, those were some seriously heavy duty locks, and they were shot in the "center-mass". You might often get better results blowing off whatever the lock is hanging on.
Yep. Too bad this isn't really true in Shadowrun, where Heavy Pistols penetrate better than ARs. |
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Jan 25 2005, 06:51 AM
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#3
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
better than some hunting rifles, as well.
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Jan 25 2005, 07:22 AM
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
It's kind of funny how no one seems to ever remember this. I see heavy duty locks all the time attached to stuff I could break through with not even a set of pliers. |
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Jan 25 2005, 07:37 AM
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#5
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Resident Legionnaire Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 2,136 Joined: 8-August 04 From: Usually Work Member No.: 6,550 |
Yeah, I like seeing them on rotted wooden toolsheds.
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Jan 25 2005, 10:23 AM
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#6
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
back at 'de farm' we mostly put lock on things to keep kids out of them. I've had to kill plenty of Black Widow spiders who set up shot in those 'rotting wood sheds'
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Jan 25 2005, 02:31 PM
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#7
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Target Group: Members Posts: 37 Joined: 26-February 02 From: England Member No.: 1,927 |
I particularly like this quote:
Also, based on how much of that sheetrock stuff even a .22 will punch though, I'm glad I live somewhere where the interior walls are usually brick. I'll feel safe taking cover behind a wall next time I get into a gunfight at home ;) |
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Jan 25 2005, 03:07 PM
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#8
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Neophyte Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,453 Joined: 17-September 04 From: St. Paul Member No.: 6,675 |
Bullet Penetration is a major concern for me and my crew of runners. It is nice to know that some under-educated guy has a web resource to describe in layman's terms what he sees.
Actually, I can now point to this and say to my players, "Yes Virginia, there is a dead body on the other side of the office partition. |
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Jan 25 2005, 03:35 PM
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#9
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
You might find the Infantryman's Guide to Combat in Built-Up Areas Chapter 8: Employment and Effects of Weapons interesting as well, in that case. It provides quite a bit of information on what kinds of building materials do and do not provide protection against assault rifles and machine guns. It also explains in depth the employment and effects of heavier weapons (grenade launchers, LAWs, MAWs, ATGMs) in urban terrain.
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Jan 25 2005, 03:42 PM
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#10
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 486 Joined: 4-August 04 From: Fomorian Wastes Member No.: 6,538 |
Anybody thought of a whip-round to get this guy to do something for us?
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Jan 25 2005, 03:58 PM
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#11
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
Notice that alot of rifle rounds will frgment if fired 'close' (within maybe 50 meters) against a lot of target... This means that they may not acutally penetrate that well...
If you take a look at the 'box' tests posted above, the 5.56 mm rounds are fragmenting because of the stress on the bullet. Firing at the box from maybe 75-100 meteres will produce a different penetration profile, as the round if much less likely to fragment. The 5.56 mm round will stop fragmenting in the 50-75 meter range, while the 7.62mm round will stop fragmenting in structures in (dunno) maybe the 150-200 meter range? |
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Jan 25 2005, 04:22 PM
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#12
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
It goes without saying for you and me, but I'll include it anyway: Depending heavily on the material it hits, and especially with the 5.56x45mm on what weapon you fire them from (barrel length). The bullets will still fragment when fired at concrete walls at distances far greater than where they hold together against soft wood(-like) materials. The FM I linked above includes tables of penetration for 7.62x51mm FMJ rounds (M80, I expect) fired from a GPMG (M60/M240). Since the round can penetrate only 18" of pine boards at 100 meters but 41" at 200 meters, the bullet is clearly still fragmenting at 100-150 meters. Somewhere before or around 200 meters is probably a good estimate against wooden construction materials. Interestingly, the penetration of the 7.62x51mm FMJs against cinder blocks tops out at 100 meters, even though I'd suspect the bullet is still fragmenting there. The FM also says that 7.62x51mm FMJs are less affected by the close range fragmentation than 5.56x45mm FMJs, and penetration of pine boards with the former increases over threefold (13" to 41") from 25 meters to 200 meters. Maximum penetration against common structural materials for M16s and M249s is said to be 200 meters. You can draw some conclusions from that... At less than 50 meters, 2" concrete or a brick veneer are rated as proof against 5.56x45mm FMJs, and the penetration of these materials only gets worse when you get closer than 50 meters. Single cinder blocks do not protect against anything really, it seems, and you must keep in mind that it's a rare interior wall that's made up of 10 or more inches of solid wood which you'd need to stop rifle rounds. Lethality through such obstacles will be significantly lower, however, since the bullet may well have fragmented. This post has been edited by Austere Emancipator: Jan 25 2005, 04:31 PM |
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Jan 25 2005, 04:25 PM
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#13
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 586 Joined: 22-November 02 From: Gordonsville, Virginia, U.S.A. (or C.A.S.) Member No.: 3,630 |
Probably true, but I personally know of one situation where it definitely changed the guy's mind. My brother once told me a story that he'd heard from an acquaintance who works in law enforcement. It seems that the guy and his partner were called to the scene of a robbery, and the two perps were still hiding on the premises somewhere. The first guy was found relatively easily--he was hiding behind a counter or something, and surrendered as soon as he realized that there were armed police officers present. His erstwhile partner in crime, however, was nowhere to be seen. One of the cops, determined not to take any unnecessary chances, retrieved the Remington 870 pump shotgun from their cruiser's trunk. Returning to the entrance of the building, he works the weapon's action, chambering a shell. Whereupon the two of them hear someone they can't yet see call out: "DON'T SHOOT! I'm COMIN' OUT!" The unseen perp quickly makes himself visible, drops his weapon, and is arrested, searched, and handcuffed. Moral of the story: Almost anyone who watches television (especially police shows) recognizes the sound of a pump-action shotgun being readied for action, and nobody in his right mind wants to be on the wrong end of a 10- or 12-gauge shotgun, particularly if it's loaded with 00 Buckshot or Slugs. :) (And *NO*, my brother is *NOT* the cop in question--he's a computer programmer. Our folks would kill him for trying it, considering how much trouble they went to to keep us alive over the years. Besides, neither of us could pass the physical. :)) --Foreigner |
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Jan 25 2005, 04:34 PM
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#14
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
The people who only know the sound from police shows, movies and computer games will tend to be utterly ignorant of the differences in terminal effect between birdshot, buckshot and slugs, though. For all they know, shotguns blow huge holes into you no matter what, and make you fly backwards in a huge arc. |
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Jan 25 2005, 04:38 PM
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#15
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Talking about making bad guys faint...
Also,
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Jan 25 2005, 04:40 PM
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#16
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,598 Joined: 15-March 03 From: Hong Kong Member No.: 4,253 |
If you are going to use a shotgun inside, it might be better to use bridshot in the #4-6 range. It'll still be plenty letal inside the house and only go through maybe a wall and a half and opposed to the 3 or so walls that buckshot will go through.
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Jan 25 2005, 04:55 PM
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#17
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Runner Group: Members Posts: 2,901 Joined: 19-June 03 Member No.: 4,775 |
Screw that. Let's just jump to shock locks.
Come to think of it, maybe we should buy some and send them to that Box o' Truth guy... |
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Jan 25 2005, 05:06 PM
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#18
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Immortal Elf Group: Members Posts: 11,410 Joined: 1-October 03 From: Pittsburgh Member No.: 5,670 |
ahhh. sweet, sweet WP. if you ever find yourself under siege by several thousand shedim, make sure you've got lots of WP grenades.
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Jan 31 2005, 11:16 AM
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#19
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,405 Joined: 23-February 04 From: Honolulu, HI Member No.: 6,099 |
I blame video games :) Shotguns in FPS games tend to be (at least in earlier FPS games) the mini BFG. You use shotguns to good effect on space demons, aliens, zombies, etc. Whether or not they'd actually do as much 'in real life' versus such, I sure as hell don't know :) As I've only got popular culture/TV/Movie/bullcrap type background in it. As for racking a shotgun...heh in SR I imagine my character would like it if his unseen target racked their shotgun. It'd give me a nice perception mod to find them and put a blade through their nostril or something. |
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Feb 1 2005, 04:03 AM
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#20
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Running Target Group: Members Posts: 1,102 Joined: 23-March 04 From: The Grizzly Grunion, in a VIP room. Member No.: 6,191 |
Check out the guy's cover in BOT #3. Look familiar? Why am I not surprised that the Box Of Truth guy is a former Marine? (I assume from his cover, anyway. Most nonmilitary people opt for Army covers, which don't have the stitching around the top to keep the octagonal shape.) Ooh Rah!
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Feb 1 2005, 05:25 AM
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#21
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
~J |
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Feb 1 2005, 05:43 AM
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#22
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UMS O.G. Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 444 Joined: 18-May 04 Member No.: 6,335 |
Actually, those were candy ass locks but you are correct, most people put on too heavy a lock. Shoot the hasp off. Also, the rifle can take off the lock just fine as long as you hit the right place (the bearings) located just left and right of center mass about 1/3 of the way down. Either one will allow the shackle to come free. This is probably impractical however. A shotgun will not really touch any really heavy lock (especially shackless ones) without special ammo. |
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Feb 1 2005, 05:49 AM
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#23
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Moving Target Group: Members Posts: 226 Joined: 4-June 03 Member No.: 4,685 |
Nah, all shooting weapons make you fly back in huge arc :) I have heard about birdshot, but don't know differences between last two. Then again, weapons are quite rare in our country. Maybe I should go and rewatch Leon, best movie of this type :) |
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Feb 1 2005, 06:36 AM
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#24
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Great Dragon Group: Members Posts: 5,889 Joined: 3-August 03 From: A CPI rank 1 country Member No.: 5,222 |
Bird shot: small shot -- not very strictly defined AFAIK, but I would assume it's basically size #4 and larger (3.3mm diameter and smaller). Buck shot: a category of much larger shot sizes, between 6.1mm and 9.14mm in diameter. Slug: a single metallic projectile launched from a shotgun.
You can see a diagram of shot sizes here and a lengthy article covering shotgun slugs here. |
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Feb 1 2005, 06:40 AM
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#25
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Manus Celer Dei Group: Dumpshocked Posts: 17,008 Joined: 30-December 02 From: Boston Member No.: 3,802 |
Mmm, science. ~J |
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