DICE POOLS, only in Combat? Options

[Luca]

i'm a bit new of this game and so probably I'm asking something obvious.
Can dice pools only be used in combats?
I think that they must be used in combat, one of my players is not so sure about that.
If a rigger is trying to drive a rotorwing is a storm (but not in combat) is it allowed to use control pool or he must only rely on Karma pool?

[mfb]

control pool can be used anytime you're controlling a rigged vehicle.

[James McMurray]

You can use any of your pools outside of combat, even the combat pool. For example, if you are in target practice or a competition, you can use combat pool to add to your shot.

If you couldn't, then you would be better at shooting targets while in a firefight than when out of one. :)

"Dammit! I just can't seem to hit the target today. Joe, can I get you to fire off a few rounds at me?"

[Aes]

IIRC, Combat pool can be used for combat maneuvers (IE: stuff that involves weapon), control pool for anything that relates to vehicles (while jacked in and rigging), hacking pool to anything related to decking (while running hot ASIST), spell pool to all magicky stuff and task pool to all kinds of nice stuff (B/R etc).

[Crimson Jack]

[Cynic project]

[Crimson Jack]

Right. That was my point. What do mean by your last question CP?

[Sandoval Smith]

He meant what would the logic be in not being able to use combat pool to shoot at a picture of a man, but if you shift a little to the left, to the guy sitting next to the picture, you suddenly have all of these extra dice.

[Crimson Jack]

Ah, okay. I wasn't sure if that was a rhetorical question or something he was posing in retort. That makes sense and I agree. :P

[Luca]

It does not make sense to me to use too often the dice pools outside combat. The problem is that one do not know how to manage the regeneration of dices.
A rigger have to do a drive test outside combat: he is driving a car on an old road which runs too near to a cliff during a storm. HE is in a stress situation, therefore he uses the control pool for the test and he is successful. 4 seconds after the first test a tree fall in the middle of the road and the rigger want to brake and(again) not fall out of the cliff. He can use still the control pool, but how much the pool is regenerated? OK, the tree fell 4 seconds after the first test, so because a combat turn is 3 seconds, one must suggest that the pool is regenerated.....but what happens if the tree fell 2 seconds after the first test?
I know the example is absurd and the Master can make his life easy simply by putting the tree to fall after 3 seconds....but what exactly happens in situation like these?

[Crimson Jack]

[tisoz]

[mintcar]

The rules for dice pools only make sense if they are only used in situations where there´s some kind of opposition. I don´t think characters are ment to be twice as good at stuff they use pools for. I see pools as a means of puting some stratagy into certain important situations. When you are in a combat situation, having your combat pool handy doesn´t automaticly improve your chanses because your opponent also has one to counter with. Dice pools can only be a manageble game mechanic if you only use them in antagonistic situations, or complex procedures like rital sorcery. I would never allow any dice from any pool eccept task pool to be used in a single skill test out of combat. Yes it seems unfair, but the game doesn´t make any sense if this is handled differently. Why would a character with no combat training be able to double her chances when shooting a target, while being stuck with her basic skill when doing the thing she´s really good at, what ever it is? I think this is the big dilemma.

My solution is to keep a strict difference between situations where pools are used and situations where its not used. When a pool is used, there should be an opposing force also using the same pool (unless the opposing force is unable to use said pool, in wich case there is an appropriate advantage). There are a few exceptions to this: One is when there´s a complex procedure going on, like some cases of ritual sorcery or enchanting. There is no opposing force, but the reason for using dice pools is the same; to put some strategy into the procedure in this case. The purpose is NOT to make you better at preforming the procedure than you would be in a single skill test. And these situations are resolved in a manner that compensates the extra dice with several, additional, difficult tests so that isn´t even the case. The other exception is task pool, wich I think is a bit confusing. It´s not really like the other pools, because it´s really just a bonus gained from certain cyberware.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[Luca]

Sorry if it could seem dumb to ask it again but i'm quite new to Shadowrun rules, expecially 3rd edition.
SO, IN summary, in the above example you are for regenerating or not the pool between the two tests? Consider that it is not a combat in the normal sense and there are no combat turns or combat passes (who can calculate the reaction of a falling tree?)

[Sandoval Smith]

If you are going to be throwing repeated tests at a character, then the pools should regenerate every three seconds.

I can't think of a situation where you would need to make a test, but would not be able to use an associated pool. They get to use just as many dice shooting the picture of a man as they do the man.

[mintcar]

Austere Emancipator: You do have a point. But do you not agree that the purpouse of a skill test is simply to find out how well you succed, and the purpous of combat pool is to add tactics to combat. Why then roll twice as many dice when there is no element of tactics in using the die pool? Then adjust the difference between that and a regular test by enterpreting the amount of successes differently? Doesn´t it make more sense to lower the difficulty to hit the target when there´s no stress? Or to apply more penalties for being under fire? This is allready part of the game.

My point is that you should be consistent in your use of dice pools, and it makes more sense not to use them in single skill tests.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[hahnsoo]

I've always thought that Pool dice represents natural talent, the contribution of Attributes to the active use of skills. After all, they are directly calculated from your attributes (with some modification from things like VCR, Encephalon, Tactical Computers and other ware). While this can represent tactical knowledge (as evidenced by the Tactical Computer), it probably is a lot more than just that.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Perhaps I should correct my above message to say that I think of the use of Combat Pool as representing what you concentrate on in combat. I certainly did not mean to suggest that those with greater Combat Pools are better at concentrating or anything of the sort.

[mintcar]

1: What you are describing are tactical choices in combat, and represent exactly the reason for having dice pools in the game.

2: Fine, but that doesn´t give any good reason for using combat pool in single skill tests.

3: The use of modifiers is a mechanic heavily used in the game. A few more would easily solve your concern about the sniper. And it would be a much better solution than using combat pool out of combat, in my point of view. Read below for more reasoning on this. I´m beginning to swing your way.

My opinion is still that there´s no reason for using dice pools except in situations that are trailed in detail by the rules, like in combat. (again, task pool aside)

Having said that, I have to say you are making more sense than I would like to admit. I still think the reason for using pools dissapear when a single test should be preformed. But the possebility of enterpreting successes differently when using dice pools opens for an even more consistant use of dice pools. It is tempting to be able to give the simple anwer "sure, you can always use them" when players ask if they can use their dice pool. I just think that there needs to be a line between pools and no pools. And that line can not go between the combat skills and the social skills. I´d much rather have it go between combat and no combat.

I think that I´ve always enterpreted successes differently depending on if its combat or not. So I would probably say shooting a target at the shooting range is more similar to using a B/R skill or something, in terms of how the skill is used in the game and why. You´re simply out to determine if the test succeeds and how good. If, on the other hand a sniper is not in a combat situation, but will engage combat by his shot, targeting a vehicle or a person —then I would allow full use of combat pool, naturally. There really does need to be a very clear difference between tests made with pools and tests without. Maybe its easier to define conditions when pools cannot be used. You know, those situations covered in the "skills" chapter in the BBB as opposed to the "magic" or "combat" chapter.

So instead of using modifiers to even things up (I trash that idea even though it was mine) you would tell the character who gets one success when shooting a target, then gets five when shooting his friend in the leg, that its two entirely different situations in the game and the extra successes go towards more damage that is then soaked by the target. What would you tell the guy running around the stadium while someone else is at the shooting range? Whats the reason then that one gets twice as many dice?

[James McMurray]

So let's say I'm shooting at a target, TN6, I need one success to hit it. I've got pistols 4, so I've got a decent chance to hit it. But then someone starts shooting at me. I ignore the shots and keep firing at my target, but sine I'm not in combat I can add 4 combat pool dice and greatly increase my chance to hit the target?

[mfb]

you can use your combat pool any time you shoot a gun, even when no one's shooting back at you.

[James McMurray]

That's the way I do it too. Mine was more of a question to those that say you can't use pool out of combat. I'm wondering how they rationalize the above scenario.

[mfb]

ah. yes, i agree. i think that if using combat pool outside combat doesn't make sense to you, you're probably looking at it the wrong way. combat pool is purely a game mechanic; if the fluff you've come up with for combat pool conflicts with the mechanics, change the fluff.

[Kagetenshi]

[mfb]

mintcar, your method is extremely complicated, requires several rules changes, and doesn't add anything to the game that i can see. it's much simpler to change the rationalization you're using for why dice pools do what they do; that way, everything's the same, there are no rules changes, and the game still works fine. i just don't see any strong reason to not allow the use of pools outside combat.

[Austere Emancipa...]

Thanks all for making my point for me clearly and concisely.

[RedmondLarry]

[mintcar]

My method of using combat pool doesn´t change the rules. Any rules changes I have sugested has been sugestions for solving any problems people might have with the rules as they stand.

Players may allocate dice from the combat pool to any offensive or defensive combat-related tests...

p 43 BBB


Now, I never even thought of interpreting this like you all do. But you may be right.

I´d like to emphesize that the only difference between yours and my way of using combat pool is that I only allow it in combat. It´s not like I changed the game for some reason. I just did what it said according to me.

If what I´ve been saying has made any sense to anyone, some out there might realize this:

I consider using dice pools in a simple, single skill test out of combat contradictory to the purpouse of dice pools.

Now, again: This is the way I read the rules, not some rule of my own.

But your probably right. YOU ALWAYS GET TO USE THE POOLS THEN

This is very important. It´s been a problem for ages. Maybe now it wont be. :)

[mintcar]

You totally missed my point Kage! :wobble:

[Kagetenshi]

[mintcar]

:S






Forget about it. I sort of missed YOUR point. Thought you ment making a single shot in combat.

[mintcar]

Look. I´ve obviously been confused when it comes to these things. You guys are totally right. And you seriously humbled me in a way, when I re-read this thread. Good work ;)


So would anyone care to explain this thoroughly. A "Complete imbicile´s guide to dice pools", if you will. I understand all the applications of the different dice pools and I also understand what you´ve been telling me in the previous posts. But I´d like a more comprehensive look at dice pools and the logic behind them from some insightful individual.

The way they´re described in the rules, I´ve always gotten the feeling that you can only use them when things are hot (p43 BBB). I never got it through my thick skull until now that they mean any time you use either combat, magic, decking or rigging. Wich incidently are the main chapters in the book, the basic core concepts of the game and have one dice pool each. This make these stand out from other activities, I guess. But there´s not a single example in any book I know of, detailing for example a simple driving test made by a rigger when not engaged in vehicle combat. And how he´s able to use maximum control pool. Some posters in the beginning of the thread prove I´m not the only one who didn´t grasp this. It seems clear to me now though.

However; the more I try to actually use all the rules of Shadowrun in my games the more complicated they seem. I need some deep understanding to be able to make judgement calls. Help me!

[Nikoli]

Well, for rigging, the only time you should ever need to make a skill check (thus the involvement of the control pool) is for dicey situations. you don't even need a single point in the skill to drive around normally unless normal driving includes mountainous cliff roads that are if you are lucky wide enough for a 1 cm margin of error and prone to rapid erosion..

In the Matrix book they do cover use of the hacking pool in writing your own programs IIRC and in MiTS for spell design, etc.

[mintcar]

Thanks, but I know that. Don´t make me go into a long explanation about my beef with dice pools again. Just tell me your over all view of dice pools and their place in the game. Mfb or someone told me to change my fluff. Well, I´m out to change my fluff.

[hahnsoo]

Again, think of dice pools as your natural talent... the contribution of your attributes and cyber to skills. Skill alone gives you X amount of dice. Talent/Raw Ability/Physical and Mental acuity give you another X amount of dice (which is your pool dice). It's an attempt on the part of the game mechanics to add the contributions of physical and mental parameters without a direct addition of attributes + skills. In d20, they distill attributes down to +/- modifiers to certain tasks and rolls. In Shadowrun, attributes contribute to dice pools.

It's also a tactical element of the game that gives Players the oh-so-wonderful feeling of choice. You choose to use your dice pools in a manner that you feel would contribute the best in a situation. In a sense, it's a way for Players to direct the action of a scene in their own way. In Castle Falkenstein, you are given 4 playing cards which you play at any time to modify the test of your choice. In Shadowrun, it's dice pools.

[mintcar]

Why does your natural attributes only help you in combat? I don´t like that.

[Crimson Jack]

They don't. Where did you get that idea from?

[hahnsoo]

[Austere Emancipa...]

You still seem to have problems with how Combat skills have a Pool associated with them in a way that other skills don't. You just need to get over it. The Combat Pool is essential for SR combat, and for logic's sake the CP has to come into play whenever Combat skills are used, whether it's an actual combat situation or not (as we went to great lengths to demonstrate).

There is no Technical Pool or Social Pool available for most players because those are not essential for gameplay. So you roll a few less dice for Social tests than in Combat tests in general. So what?

[BitBasher]

Also, combat pool is a limited number of dice that need to be divided tactically amongst a potentially large number of oppportunities to use it. In reality this varies dramatically from the idea of a social pool or task pool in that in those instances the pool equates to free dice because you really never have to use the skill twice so fast the pool dice don't come back.

The two are really not comparable.

[hahnsoo]

[BitBasher]

[mintcar]

So basicly the answer is "get over it"?

I already said that I accept that combat pool can be used out of combat. But my last question has to do with something else.

"Why does your natural attributes only help you in combat?" was ment like this: Why do you need cyber or magic to enhance your preformance in any other task than combat (related skills)?

I´m getting tired of this. You proved your point, and I realised I had missinterpreted the rules. Now you have proven that the rules are simply screwed up, and we have to live with it. Ok fine.

[tisoz]

Do you need cyber to get a hacking pool?

[hahnsoo]

[Crimson Jack]

[Necro Tech]

[mintcar]

What??

It seems to be true that there are thousands of ways to play Shadowrun. Maybe that´s because every situation in the game is an exception. There are special rules for everything. Nothing holds together.

Guys, I´ve been playing this game for ten years and I´ve always defended it as one of the best systems out there. Only until resently I used the game mechanics when it suited me, and didn´t read to much into them. Now when I´m using more of the rules to try and bring more choices and challanges to my players, it just seems to much to keep track of.

Maybe I need to take the things I really like with the system, and overhaul the rest. Don´t worry, I wont bring it to the boards. It would just be begging for a bashing.

[Austere Emancipa...]

[mintcar]

Yes I understand.

What you are saying now is much like what I was saying in the beginning of this argument. I still have to make some changes eather to my "fluff" or the rules to make sense of it.

I think I will be giving all characters Hacking and Control Pool in the future. Allowing for the use of Control Pool in regular vehicles and Hacking Pool when using a tortoice. If you dont have a VCR or a cyber deck, the pools will be much smaller anyway. And that way these pools will be more in line with Combat Pool. I dont think I´ll impliment a universal Task Pool though. Because, as you say, there would be no reason for it. As I have repeatedly said: Using dice pools in single skill tests contradict their purpouse. (Except in the very limited example of shooting a gun in a target range, wich I´ll view as a bug in the system)

[tisoz]

It's not just the shooting a gun at a target example, there are numerous similar examples. They involve any example you could use a skill with a pool out side of combat. It comes down to why should I be better at something because I'm engaged in combat?

Another example, a magician trying to cast a spell, shouldn't need a friend to take a swing at him so he can use his spell pool to cast a Makeover spell.

[mintcar]

When casting a spell you still have to account for drain, so the pool has some use there.

[James McMurray]

A rigger shouldn't be able to take hair pin turns at high speeds because he is in combat. A decker shouldn't be better at downloading becaues he has some ICE trying to fry his brain.

I can't think of a single time when not being able to use combat pool outside of combat makes any sense.

[mintcar]

I´m bailing out. The thread has reached the point when new posters don´t read the entire thing. Thanks to all who took this conversation with me. I needed to straighten some things out.

>>edit<< no intention of being rude there, James. Just that I got what I came for, and there´s a risk of having to repeat myself if I keep posting.

[James McMurray]

No problem. I just find it confusing that earlier you said that you do use pools all the time, and then just now you said that it doesn't make sense. I guess I'm just trying to figure out why you flip-flopped.

[tisoz]

[Crimson Jack]

[mintcar]

I´m sorry my arguments have been confusing. This is because I´m changing the way I´ve been looking at the game for ten years. Not the easiest time to be completely straight forward :) To straighten things out I will go through my train of thoughts.

For ten years I have had some trouble understanding when you were supposed to use dice pools. In those years I developed the conclusion that you only used them in tight situations that required more detail in the game. To allow for choices as Austere put it, or to add tactics like I put it, same thing in this case. The argument I´ve had and the things pointed out to me in this thread has made me realize that there are situations outside of these bounderies that require use of dice pools because it creates to much trouble not to allow using them. I now agree that the simplest and best way of looking at it is that you use combat pool for all combat skill tests, matrix for all matrix test and so forth, no matter what the situation. I still think there´s a reason there´s not a dice pool for every skill type though, like you say. So ideally you wouldn´t use dice pools for single skill tests (when the pool is not in active use, when you don´t make any choices to allocate it). You do that because the alternetive is worse. Any other thing that I´ve said can be dismissed as rantings.

Crimson Jack: I´m pretty sure I never suggested creating a pool for every skill type.

tisoz: I´ve never claimed that spell pool could not be used for all sorcery tests. I was pointing out that the pool is devided between two tests in that case, and so the pool is used in an active way unlike with the shooting range example. Because the pool is in active use when spellcasting, I never had a problem with it. (Well, in the beginning I did)

[mintcar]

It´s very easy to get missunderstood when you have something specific on your mind and your limited to text messenges in a language that is not native to you. And that´s a bit irritating so forgive my bitchiness.

[Crimson Jack]

Minty,

This statement made me think that you were going to start creating pools for everything and everyone:

[mintcar]

I think that the game would be made more fun if everybody got their base reaction as Control Pool. You can still participate in vehicle combat even though you don´t have a VCR. In fact most participants in a vehicle combat will be without one in my games. There is still a need for spicing things up with some choices and tactics even though your not top of the line. As a rigger you will have more control pool, mighty sensors, more initiative and a bunch of other things that make you superior.

Hacking pool for turtles might be going to far.

(this was one of the rantings, by the way)

[Crimson Jack]

So, are you going to boost the rigger's Control Pool even higher then, to compensate for the fact that you're boosting everyone who can drive a car... regardless of whether they have the tech to give them the boost?

[Da9iel]

Meh. Base reaction control pool pales in comparison to the -TN for a VCR. Riggers also get the +2 to reaction per VCR level. Some meager control pool for non-riggers makes sense. Also makes the sudden bullet dodging capability of riggers a little less sudden and magikal.

This post has been edited by Da9iel: Feb 5 2005, 01:35 AM

[Xirces]

The pools are functions of specific pieces of equipment not character types. Having possession of a cyberdeck gives a hacking pool - if everyone in the group wants a hacking pool they could always share ("it's my turn to have a hacking pool"). Bit more difficult with a VCR, but still - it's the equipment that gives the pool, not the character type. This isn't D&D where only deckers can use decks - it's the deck that causes a character to be a decker and the VCR makes a rigger, not the other way round. It makes this whole argument slightly pointless.

Admittedly this does cause problems with some of the edges and flaws (If you spend 14000Y on a cheap-o deck you become a decker so can take the matrix flaws and get a few edges on the cheap...).

[mintcar]

I don´t share that opinion. Hacking Pool and Control Pool are not functions of equipment only, they are also functions of your attributes, specificly intelligence and reaction. You just cant use them without the equipment.

[Xirces]

[Kagetenshi]

Er, no. The pools are functions of equipment, but not of equipment only… that's why they incorporate stats rather than just being equal to MPCP or VCR Rating*something.

The idea behind only allowing those with the gear to have the pool is that the tech acts as an enabler, making it easy enough that one's natural talent is more able to be brought to bear.

~J

[mintcar]

Xirces: I know the game wants you to get a VCR if your going to drive and a deck if you are going to do the matrix. But the game allows for participation in these parts of the game even though you don´t have that equipment. I´m thinking MY game might be more fun if everybody participating in vehicle combat had some pool dice to distribute. I think riggers are far to superior anyway. Even if you send ten lone star cruisers after a rigger they wont even break a sweat. In my particular game this change will be for the better.

[Jrayjoker]

I try to think of the pools as resulting from training and experience as well as natural abilities (stats). This rationalle is applicable to the combat pool for everyone and the magic pool for those who can astrally perceive. The fact that you need a deck to truly experience the matrix (physical damage as opposed to an image on a screen) can make the argument for the hacking pool working as a reult of training and experience, and the threat of death when getting dumped from a vehicle/drone is enough to rationalize the conntrol pool for me.

I can fight somone, but I have no training to do so, so now pool. I can post to a forum, but I can't take a hit from the IC guarding it, so no pool. I can read a spell formula, but I can't cast it, so no pool. I can drive my car agressively, but I can't feel the road or the gravel kicking up onto my windshield, so no pool.

[Jrayjoker]

Deleted double post.

:wobble:

This post has been edited by Jrayjoker: Feb 5 2005, 02:25 PM

[Kagetenshi]

[Crimson Jack]

[Crimson Jack]

Mintcar,

I just noticed your post in the "Campaign Tone" thread:

[mintcar]

He needs some competition from those lone star cruisers. And I would like him to be able to steal cars and drive them like a son of a bitch too.

I´m propably going to let riggers use the reaction modifier from their VCR (but not the other things) when driving with a data jack (the virtual dash board). I don´t know how I´m going to explain it, but it seems they should have some edge when driving regular vehicles too.

This is rather of topic.

[Kanada Ten]

Not all cars come with a datajack port. In fact, of those listed, only those with rigger adaptation do.

[Crimson Jack]