Magical Adept vs. Mage, Which one's 'better'? Options

[rlemansky]

Greetings.

I'd like to avoid any munchkin issues, but I'm at bit of a loss. Why would anyone play a Magical Adept over a full Mage? Can't most of the adept powers be simulated with either Magic or Low Essence cyber-ware? If so, what advantage is gained by being an Adept? What am I missing?

Any input's appreciated.

R

[Ranneko]

2 words, B priority

Or alternately: Lower cost

So you get more skills/better stats/more cash

[Critias]

No you don't. Being an Adept of the Magician's Way is priority A.

[GentlemanLoser]

Improved Ability: X
Weapon Focus.
Centering 2 (Your weapon focus of choice)

Magic resistance + Spell Defence + Shielding.

Mystic armour + Armour

Enchanced Aim + Improved Pistols

[Ranneko]

True, misread. My mistake.

Well there are adept powers than cannot be reproduced by spells or cyber, such as improved skill, or traceless you also don't need foci to keep an adept skill running, unlike mage spells.

It's a matter of what you want really.

Besides some concepts work better with a magician's way adept.

*Still plans on making a magical girl sometime*

[Endgame50]

Well, it depends on which way you're developing the character. I wouldn't make a Magical Way adept as a spell hurler who happens to have some adept powers. As you noted, for most of what a magician would find useful, you could probably duplicate it with low powered cyberware.

The main benefit afaik, is the flexibility of an adept who has spells at his fingertips.

For example, you could take a improved reflexes at +3 at force 1, put it in a force 1 sustaining focus, and then learn masking. It'll be covered by your passive masking, leaving you with a more or less permanent +3d6 to your initiative. (which is roughly equivalent to 2 levels of wired reflexes, a little worse statistically). You spend 2 spell points, more money, but only 1 power point instead of three.

a force 1 levitate would allow you to fly, albeit slowly.

So on and so forth. If you're willing to risk physical drain, there's a horde of low drain spells out there you could use at higher forces. (Improved invis, stealth, heal (Heh heh), and so on.) I'd recommend using that iniatory point to up your spellcasting ability though, since it's the first to go if you lose magic--best to have a buffer.

On the adept side, you could go social and take kinesics (no starting PC can take cultured phermones, and kinesics are better anyway) or go physical and take killing hands or whatever. You're then dealing with an adept who has a handful of spells to improve his performance.

[GentlemanLoser]

Ambidextrous + Improved Pistols + Enhanced Aim + Centering (Pistols) + Item attunement = 4 shots per phase at TN2.

Ambidextrous + Improved (weapon) + Enhanced reflexes + counterattack + weapon focus + Increase Strength/Strength Boost + Centering (Weapon) = blender

Throw in some nice decrease body spells...

I'm sure I've missed out some stuff that can be included...

And do all this from invisibility.

[Grinder]

I have an magician adept in my current group. Works out fine so far, but the fact that he is unable to scout in the astral is really a big handicap. Sure, you can pick up Astral sight for 2 magic points, but that's very expensive.

[GentlemanLoser]

Isn't there a limited astral projection metamagic skill for Magical Way Adepts?

[Grinder]

Don't know at the moment. The player of that char would probably know it and he hadn't mentioned it, so...

[Fortune]

Limited Astral Projection is a Metamagic from SotA64, usable only by Magical Adepts. The limitation is that you substitute minutes for hours for the duration.

GentlemanLoser: I am not sure if you know it from your above post, but AFAIK Centering is available per skill category. You wouldn't have Centering (Pistols) or Centering (Swords), but rather Centering (Ranged Combat) and Centering (Melee Combat).

[Dawnshadow]

Created with the house rule that magician adepts gain metamagic with every initiation (except to shed gaesa), in part because nobody thought it made sense, and in part because he's a shaman of a very unusual totem (darkness) and so isn't welcome in the multi-style Initiatory group the PC Adept is part of, and is too conditioned against expecting help to go find one, so he's initiating with brutal costs...

Improved invisibility + ambidex + weapon focus (3) + increase str (4) + aptitude (swords)..

TN 3 in melee, and once you get up to skill 8... that's 15 dice per round (applying weapon focus bonus only once, since getting the bonus with both hands is a touch on the crazy side (force 3 would give 4 dice.. force 4 would give 6..).. if I want it on both, I'm going to get a second weapon focus..) All spells on sustaining foci.

Add in improved reflexes, improved quickness, some sense mods, and quickdraw..

A martial art... that let you buy manouvers for weapons.. and you have multi-strike and whirling as well.

Couple that with a few force 4 spells (powerball, manaball, stunball) and you have a character that can slaughter goons magically, and take out most anything with swords.

Add in an ally spirit initiation and you have all the abilities of a weak mage with the combat ability of an adept. Add a power focus to the mix and you can throw any spell a starting mage can without going into physical drain, with a lot more melee ability and a few metamagic techniques to round it out. (Mine are masking, divining, and shielding as I recall.. haven't gone with centering yet, it's next on the list)

[Tarantula]

I'm sorry, any aptitude (some combat skill here) is cheezy and geared for fighting already. The book even says the GM should consider it carefully.

[Kanada Ten]

Quick Strike, Multitasking, Improved Senses (not resisted like the dumb detection spells), and a few choice powers like Killing Hands (drainless) can make a Magician's Way adept pretty badass. And Geasa can make the Magical Power a bit cheaper.

[Dawnshadow]

[Fortune]

Actually, the recommendation is against all Combat, Magical, or Computer skills.

[Dawnshadow]

Ah, alright.

The point about nobody being a natural in that department becomes all the more relevent for the 'cheesy' stuff.

It's potentially unbalancing. It still makes sense that people would have it.

(I don't personally have the book, just the GM does, so I can't check the exact lines, just go with my trick memory. Apparently I should reread it.)

Personally, I wouldn't recommend it in a low power game, because it would be a far more serious thing there. But.. the adept started into a fairly high-powered game -- the other two characters had 15+ karma pool.

Beyond that, just that I wouldn't recommend it doesn't mean that it shouldn't happen. I'd be just as concerned about a troll Sam with natural body 11, a pair of cyberarms, and titanium bones.. (body 14), or even worse, a pair of cyberlegs instead of cyber-arms, for body 15.

[Tarantula]

But, a body of 15 isn't as game-breaking as -1 to ALL TNs permanently. Aptitude anything is a serious bonus. Aptitude pistol + laser sight gives you benefit of a smart link. How about that same troll, with aptitude polearms, and a polearm? base 3 TN in melee combat with 3 (or is it 4?) reach.

Aptitudes problem, is that you can tag it on any other game-breaking thing, and make it worse.

[Dawnshadow]

[U_Fester]

I would have the body of 15 over aptitude any day of the week. With armor of 6 you need to bring in some big guns to do some damage, plus the 15 dice to roll for damage isn't that bad either.

[BitBasher]

[Fortune]

[Cynic project]

Um, those cyber troll don't like the fallowing things, Asullt rifles on burst fire with Ex-ex, lasers, shaped charges, MAD dicetors, just name a few things.

But even das uber troll can go down. The problem with aptitude and the skills is recommend you adviod, is that why wouldn't the pistol adept have it?Why wouldn't the spell slinger? Any flaw or edge that you have to ask why wouldn't any character have, is not worth putting into the game.

[mfb]

given the current rules, the mage will quickly and easily outstrip the magician's way adept in terms of raw destructive capability, versatility, and just about every other measurement of "powerful" i can think of. physmages progress, magically, at half the rate of full magicians or regular adepts: they can either gain a metamagic or gain a power point. a competently-run will burn the pants off of a competently-run physmage, given ~30+ karma. at charagen, though, a physmage is initially the better choice.

[Fortune]

If the rules for Magician Adept Initiation were fixed it would be a different story though.

[mfb]

indeed. heck, if the rules for magician's way adept initiation were fixed, i might play them more often.

[Guest_Crimsondude 2.0_*]

Fixed?

It'd work if the description was written coherently.

[Rev]

The infusion focus is another thing thrown into the mix. Works better than normal for a physmage because their magic goes up but thier power points don't (if they learn metamagics) So a physmage can get plug & play power points (and use them all the time) for 6 karma and 150-300kY(street index) per point.

[Fortune]

It's that incoherency that led to the ludicrous FAQ ruling, which is in itself quite coherent, albeit totally wrong.

[mfb]

an adept who gets only metamagics at initiation, and who has an infusion focus with a force equal to 2x his grade, will be on an equal footing with a normal mage.

[Rev]

Except that they can spend the points on adept powers instead of magical power if they want. I don't think it makes them better than a mage, but it certainly helps them out. If there is a lot of money available it helps them out a lot because they can plug & play powers appropriate to any situation and learn them for about the same karma as a spell.

[Tarantula]

[mfb]

pshaw. they'll both go down when the mage slaps them with a high-force D stunbolt.

[Dawnshadow]

[hahnsoo]

[BitBasher]

Oh hell no.

[mfb]

the balance shift is less huge in magic and decking, but still appreciable. the balance shift in melee is absolutely overwhelming.

[Dawnshadow]

[mfb]

yes, but with magic, it's not generally as close a contest; the mage's base TNs are different from the target's base TNs, and different modifiers apply to each--it's not a direct contest. in melee, you're rolling directly against your opponent, and the TNs are usually very close; raising or lowering the TNs is often more important than having a few more dice.

[DrJest]

Where I really found a physmage to be an advantage was when making my Gun Kata Adept. Since I wanted a dual pistol setup, laser sights were out; being able to throw an Enhance Aim into a sustaining focus was well worth sacrificing a point of magic for (as mentioned before, subject to GM approval that's a Personal Extended Enhance Aim, which is even more useful). Having taken the magic point in the first place, it's worth adding a few other spells; Fashion and Makeover, those two classics, and an emergency Treat (yes the drain will be physical, but a low Force treat can have its Drain soaked to nil, and the few boxes of healing could save someone's life - even yours) spring to mind. A lot of utility spells work at that kind of level as well; Gecko Crawl, anyone? Magic Fingers? It's not strong, but it'll flip a switch.

[Dawnshadow]

True mfb-- but raising or lowering the target number has a vast affect on the amount of successes, and can make the difference between a spell being tough to resist but possible, and instant-kill.

For instance, sorcery 6, force 4 spell, 5 spell pool, and 4(D) drain...

If you're frying goons against target 4, you need to throw 8-10 dice to be relatively sure that you're going to kill them all first cast.

If you have aptitude, it's target 3, and you need to throw 6 dice to be relatively sure, leaving you more to direct to drain resistance, with in turn makes your mage more likely to be able to continue casting..

Aptitude, in melee, is devastating, but not insurmountable -- but it's a more limitted application.

True, changing target numbers in melee is usually more important than adding a few dice.. but changing target numbers happens quite a bit, for a larger amount of reasons, from everything to that gunfight beforehand to bad lighting, to a phobia taking affect, to totem modifiers for shamans, to reach.

[BitBasher]

[Dawnshadow]

It's sudden enough when neither one gets more than two actions in a round ;)

You're right though, I did miss that.

[BitBasher]

[Cynic project]

I have yet to see a magical adept that was good at being an adept or good being a mage. At best they lag behind most adepts or mages in the field that they want to go for. The thing about mages is that they need a lot of karma to do what they do. The thing about adepts is they need a lot of karma to do what they want to do.

If you are a mage, you look in the book and you can rightly say I want just about every spell in the book,plus some others. You may want to get an ally spirit.You may not.

As an adept well you can always get more power,and frankly you just about always do.

Both these things take Karma. About the only thing they have in common with the use of the karma is that they both want metamagics. In the end, just about any time I wanted to play a magical adept,I played a voodoun.

[Tarantula]

[The White Dwarf]

For magicians way adepts vs full magicians, its more of a "how long term do you plan" thing. Cause out past 300 karma youre gonna start seeing the adept get a lot more powerful. But with lower values the magician tends to be better *in a broader range* than the adept. Magicians way adepts tend to be able to combine several powers from both categories to really shine in one area, but they lack the versatility that comes with being a full mage. Until, of course, youve built up enough karma to overcome all that.

As far as aptitude in the recommended "not" skill categories, that recommendation is there for very good reason. I dont care what you compare it to, in what example, in what test or condition; the aptitude is always broken relative to whatever youre trying to compare it to.

Dont fight it just trust us. Statistically and game mechanically its an almost ir-reproducible advantage that will wildly swing the odds in the aptitude-ee's favor.

Its not even a challenge to point out why. Its been done to death before. Any example anyone throws up here trying to claim aptitude in a recommended barred skill will be shot down in short order. Give up, resistance is futlie. Just accept its too powerful. You may like things too powerful, and be content with it in your games, and thats fine. But it *does* wildly swing the odds past the ability of virtually anything elses ability to do so.

[Shockwave_IIc]

[Fortune]

[Dawnshadow]

[Crimson Jack]

Its interesting to hear so many people saying that a full mage is better, in their opinions, than a physmage. I used to think the same thing, until one of my players built one that I dare say is one of the strongest characters I've ever seen in any of my games. At the onset, he was underpowered, compared to the team shaman and full physad. But, now that the group has accumulated several hundred karma, that guy is a juggernaut in combat. Physmages, IMO, ripen nicely.

[BitBasher]

after a few hundred karma anyone with a long term plan for their karma is a badass.

[Crimson Jack]

I didn't make my point very clear. The physmage is leaps and bounds more versatile in the end game over the group's wujen (didn't mean to post "shaman" earlier) and physad.

[Cynic project]

Have you seen a Voodoun with 300 karma?

[Crimson Jack]

No, but in the one game that I get to play in, my houngan is up to 120 GK, IIRC. Nice, but not amazing. Why? What's up with the 300k Voodoun?

[mfb]

that's abnormal. in nine cases out of ten, a full mage will be lightyears ahead of a magician's way adept.

[Cynic project]

Well, I had one that got around 170 karma I think. By that time he could not be killed by anything short of antitank weapons or magics, and magic was rather hard. You see, when you get to that range you can get force 7 great form Loa,
witch have nasty abilities onto themselves.

Now, think of what you could when you have immunity to normal weapons,concealment,movement,gourd and magical gourd... I have seen my Voodoun walk out of things that should have killed him. About the only place that I can think of him as having a weak point was the matrix.

Magical Adepts could be the best,if you give them infinite karama. But I think most die beofre they reach the breaking point.

[BitBasher]

[Glyph]

An adept of the magical way that is made with a game plan can be better than any other option for certain roles. Melee is one example (improved ability, plus invoking combined with channeling, plus an optimal mix of melee-enhancing spells). You could also make an effective face (the new adept social powers combined with spells such as mind probe, makeover, influence, etc.).

[Crimson Jack]

[Crimson Jack]

[Crimson Jack]

[Sharaloth]

So far I've seen two Magicians Way Adepts in the games I've played. One I played, the other I GM'd for. This would be Dawnshadow's Magician-Adept with the Swords Aptitude, which I wouldn't allow for any other game than the one I'm running (Extremely high-Karma, extremely powerful enemies, virtually no pay).

I've seen a bunch of full-on magicians as well, but I'd have to say it comes out pretty even. Of course, a badly constructed M-A does not stack up to a moderately well constructed F-M, but the reverse is also true. Once you get to the 100+ Karma range, things even out. I'll take the two strongest examples of each, Kincade (the M-A), and Arm (the F-M).

Kincade started out about halfway through a high-powered game, and about two runs away from the climax of the first main Arc (I run in story arcs), so he began with something near 50 Karma to his name for improvements after CC was done with. Near end of the Arc, he's at just over 100 Karma. At this point, he's still only got an effective spellcasting Magic of 3 (all of it geased for nighttime only), and a few well-chosen Adept abilities (enhanced senses, Improved Reflexes, Improved Quickness, Quickdraw). A Power Focus and an Ally Spirit help to offset the low available Magic (thought he Ally has a bad habit of being disrupted every time she would be useful). He's nowhere near the power of the other adept of the team, nor is he at the level of a full magician. However, his abilities allow him to go above and beyond either when necessary. Like the Adept he's got high initiative and reaction that CAN'T be dispelled. Like the Magician he has access to spirits and spells that can boost his strength, allow him to become invisible, etc, etc. That he's a specialized Melee fighter (ranged combat is not Kincade's friend), allows him to be VERY good in one area at the sacrifice of others (like a well-made Adept), but gives him the versatility to strike out magically if closing with the enemy is impossible or inadviseable (like a well-made mage).

The downsides come with facing off against a character who is specialized in an area he is not. A skilled gunfighter could take out Kincade quickly, though would get absolutely slaughtered if he let the M-A close to sword range. A seasoned Mage could dispell Kincade's spells and blow up his Foci, but Kincade has Spell Defense he can use to offset this, and allow him enough time to get near said mage. Against a full adept, he would be beat with the level of skills and speed, but could use his spells to an undeniable advantage.

Nice tradeoff, actually. Mostly why I like M-A's. The sickening drawbacks to the need for initiation and the threat of magic loss make up for it, though.

Now, Arm. Arm is an interesting character. Designed as both a high-powered Mage and a highly competent Decker, he started off with Cyber and some Bio. Were we running a high-karma game at the time? No, so he couldn't have expected to have that choice NOT come back to haunt him. Did he let the hit in magic slow him down? No. Did he geas his magic loss? No. Did he summon an Ally Spirit before gaining back that magic point? Yes. Did he willingly learn and cast Force 10 spells before he initiated once? You better believe it.

Once Arm passed the 100 Karma mark (the only character of that group to do so, everyone else having either died, turned into world-threatening NPC's or retired and been replaced), he was a force of nature. He had a habit of tossing around Force 10+ Laser spells, summoning Force 8+ great form Elementals for kicks, and whenever he felt even slightly threatened he would turn turtle with his specially designed Physical Barrier Spell, for which he had approximately fifty force 8 expendible spell foci for on any particular occasion. He was, in the words of one other player "Godlike" in his ability to survive and dole out destruction. He was, however, useless in anything that didn't involve either wreaking (or surviving) devastation, or Decking. The fact that he was the oldest surviving character made him the de facto leader of the group, and that led to many character's safehouses being firebombed. Now, his spells were of such high force that they couldn't be dispelled, and barely defended against, and he had this insane Willpower boosting spell that he super-quickened to himself and then kept Masked that put his Will effectively at 15 for resisting the intense drain he put himself through. If he knew you were there, and he wanted to kill you, you were dead. If you unloaded a goddamned assault cannon at him after he knew you were trying to kill him, it would do jack all. If you caught him by surprise, he could barely throw a punch to defend himself. He survived on the unerring ability of his teammates to get in the way of the first bullet and him. With him the key was surprise, and he was not immune to that by far.

Again, not a bad tradeoff.

In the end, neither Kincade nor Arm are any more or less effective and powerful than each other (at that point of development, at least). The M-A has versatility, the F-M has sheer power (in this example). A diverse F-M will be lacking in several areas against even a diverse M-A, mostly in the physical aspect, which the M-A excels in as a matter of course. A diverse M-A will be lacking in several areas against a diverse F-M, mostly in the magical aspect, which the M-A excels in as a matter of course. The P-A (physical Adept) excels agianst the F-M a great deal physically, the F-M excels completely agianst the P-A Magically, and both excel in their individual areas against the M-A. But that's the entire purpose of the M-A, to be more physically capable than a F-M, and more magically capable than a P-A, but not equal to either in their field of specialization. Jack of all trades, master of none. You lose a little of one thing to gain a little of something else, etc, etc, etc.


At least, that's the way I see it. I could be weird.

[Dawnshadow]

[tisoz]

IMO, Aptitude (melee skill) is easier balanced and easier to challenge without putting the whole team at risk than Body 15. Just have melee opponents attack in pairs, or throw an extra attacker at him. Poof, advantage neutralized, and PC gets to feel good for overcoming odds.

[Tarantula]

No, advantage isn't neutalized, he has an advantage, because without it, he couldn't take the two attackers at once. Hes now tying up 2 attackers, rather than just 1. If you just decide to double any melee combatants, well, thats your call as a GM, but its more than you would have had to do without the aptitude. Don't forget, aptitude & whirling is a very nasty combination.

[Drain Brain]

I have made a couple of Magical Adepts, normally to satisfy a particular character concept. Although I like the idea, in most cases the concept would have been better served by utilising the knack power (created, I believe, by Steve Kenson, but not technically canon).

Mostly, a single spell effect is what I'm after, and although I allow knacks in games I run, I have yet to find a GM who will allow me to use it on a character I am playing...

[CoalHeart]

Physmages or Magical Adepts whatever you want to call them can come out to be very.... very very very scary.

Boon to the Magic Casting side of him is the Adept ability of Pain Resistance.
No longer fear knocking yourself the hell out by casting your big big boom spells, or summoning up some sort of fiendish draco-horror from some forgotten multiverse.

Big Boon to the Adept side of is Improved Invisibility, and Armor spell.
Now they can't see you, and if they manage to hurt you you can resist the hell out of it much easier.

Spell Defense + Spell Resistance.

Mystic Armor + Astral Armor/armor + Weapon Foci + Improved Ability(Weapon)+Counterstrike +Astral Perception= Perfect Astral thing killer, as well as just a hellacious Melee combat bastard.

Improved Ability(Gun)+Extended Enhanced Aim+Improved Reflexes + Improved Quickness + Various Combat Pool enhancing Spells / Powers = Monster of a gunbunny.

Given enough karma and time, Magical Adepts make very nasty things, worse than adepts alone, or mages alone. The hard part is surviving that long. :D

Oh and P.S. Never drink, smoke, then think it would be cool to ask the GM to send your runners against a 10th grade Phys Mage Initiate Wendigo of the Shark and his CyberVampire SideKick.

Yea... that turned out ugly, had to... Lets just leave it alone and blame it on the brownies. ::twitch::

[GentlemanLoser]

If you haven't seen it, check out my Optimising a M-A thread...

;)

[BitBasher]

[mfb]

not true. M&M page 131 states that if you have pain resistance or damage compensators, you stay conscious for 10+level/rating boxes.

[BitBasher]

Woof. damnit I need M&M in PDF.... I've never seen that rule.

[mfb]

it does beg the question: what if you've got body 6, and pain resistance 10? do you stay alive for 20 boxes, even though you'd normally be all-the-way-dead at 16?

[Tarantula]

Check the disablement rules right after the consciousness ones. Pg 132.

[CoalHeart]

[mfb]

well, sheesh. guess i need to read more.